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Should the top two English leagues be merged?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 16 Jun 2020, 6:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ruck.co.uk have put together a rather pie in the sky piece about league reform in England.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/what-would-the-premiership-look-like-if-it-was-split-into-conferences-like-the-nfl/

It suggests splitting the top two divisions into 5 NFL style conferences. 

NORTHERN DIVISION
Doncaster Knights
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks
Yorkshire Carnegie

LONDON DIVISION
Ealing Trailfinders
Harlequins
London Irish
Saracens

MIDLANDS 1
Bedford Blues
Leicester Tigers
Northampton Saints
Nottingham

MIDLANDS 2
Bristol Bears
Gloucester
Wasps
Worcester Warriors

SOUTHERN DIVISION
Bath
Cornish Pirates
Exeter Chiefs
Jersey

The issues emerge immediately as outraged Bristol fans want to know why they are a Midlands team and Bath are a Southern one. Midlands 2 would be much better re-badged as West.

Yorkshire/Leeds or whatever their name is this week obviously aren't fit to enter and Coventry would probably be annoyed by being overlooked after finishing last season on 4th. Not sure the Prem teams would be keen on sharing the television coverage pie but more games should mean more coverage options and maybe some shared coverage.

The West Country teams would probably want to be in the same group for derby game purposes but this would make their conference extremely harsh.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:54 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Or indeed the Welsh just focusing on themselves and giving it a go. There comes a time when you've got to stop pining and accept where you are.

Wales is too small to support professional rugby on its own, just as is England.

Bristol to Glocuester is 40 miles.
Bristol to Cardiff is 44 miles.


I agree Wales is too small to support fully professional club rugby on it's own, as are Ireland, Scotland and Italy, I wonder if a mutually agreeable solution could be found ? Maybe some sort of joint league?


Yeah, great idea, maybe a Pro 12? Should work.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote: As I've said their plan is to ring fence the Prem not expand.

Because, as noted, that's the first step to expansion.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:16 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

I'm going to have to ask you to re-phrase or at least expand upon what you mean as I cannot for the life of me understand how that could be a negative?

You don't think that its a negative that teams in your pyramid don't want to reach its top? Seriously?
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:17 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

But we're on the internet. We haven't met. It's an odd way to converse. It's a little creepy, if anything. Thanks for understanding, bro.

Noted.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:17 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

You need to stop using the phrase 'spot on'. You clearly don't know what it means.

In this regard it means that you've shot yourself in your own foot.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:19 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Llanelli to Newcastle is 400 miles
Llanelli to Dublin 220 miles

What's your point (other than playing with the English will somehow turn the Blues back in to Cardiff and will remove the incompetent board members and turn them in to a world class rugby club with more money than anyone else)? What exactly is your point?

My point is that there's a bit of air or sea travel in the outlier you've picked.

You've got very Powellian all of a sudden. How can 'the Blues' turn back in to what they are? Odd comment. Mask slipping?
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Really. Hadn't seen that regarding the WRUs statement. Have you got a link and I'll have a read.
I do get that you'd like to play in the English league as you appear to have a dislike of the Irish and somehow feel you could flourish in the English league.

Look for the Joint Supporters Group on Twitter when they publish their notes.

I can't get why your sole claimed fear of an AW league is based on a financial nonsense.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:20 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

I agree Wales is too small to support fully professional club rugby on it's own, as are Ireland, Scotland and Italy, I wonder if a mutually agreeable solution could be found ? Maybe some sort of joint league?


Even better, how about all of the union owned teams play in one competition and the proper clubs play in another?

p.s. England is also too small.
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

I'm going to have to ask you to re-phrase or at least expand upon what you mean as I cannot for the life of me understand how that could be a negative?

You don't think that its a negative that teams in your pyramid don't want to reach its top? Seriously?

I need to you to expand upon what you mean to be honest. It's vague yet seems specific at the same time. In principle, no, absolutely not. It's naive, if not outright dense, to think that all teams can by definition challenge for 'the top' at any given time.

Please expand this point as I cannot see how it's a negative, and certainly not in comparison to the alternative in a conference system of ringfenced teams i.e. The Celtic Warriors, The Borders, Aironi, the Dragons.

Just say what you mean, please. These half witted questions aren't the gotchas you think they are, so why not spell out what you want to say.

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

You need to stop using the phrase 'spot on'. You clearly don't know what it means.

In this regard it means that you've shot yourself in your own foot.

How so? You've replied 'spot on' twice now to comments that are in direct contradiction with what you apparently are stating you believe. That's the height of stupidity. Less shooting yourself in the foot and more like that Welsh fan who blew his own b0llocks off when they won the Grand Slam.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:24 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

I need to you to expand upon what you mean to be honest. It's vague yet seems specific at the same time. In principle, no, absolutely not. It's naive, if not outright dense, to think that all teams can by definition challenge for 'the top' at any given time.

Please expand this point as I cannot see how it's a negative, and certainly not in comparison to the alternative in a conference system of ringfenced teams i.e. The Celtic Warriors, The Borders, Aironi, the Dragons.

Just say what you mean, please. These half witted questions aren't the gotchas you think they are, so why not spell out what you want to say.

Oh dear. This is getting really strange, but here goes:

Of the 12 teams playing in the Greene King IPA Championship, how many would accept promotion if they won it? And, if that answer is not "all of the teams" doesn't that show a fundamental problem with the "pyramid system" as you call it?
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

Llanelli to Newcastle is 400 miles
Llanelli to Dublin 220 miles

What's your point (other than playing with the English will somehow turn the Blues back in to Cardiff and will remove the incompetent board members and turn them in to a world class rugby club with more money than anyone else)? What exactly is your point?

My point is that there's a bit of air or sea travel in the outlier you've picked.

You've got very Powellian all of a sudden. How can 'the Blues' turn back in to what they are? Odd comment. Mask slipping?

Perhaps you haven't noticed but the Blues are a region, not a club. It would make sense if you're some kind of Rip van Winkel figure who just woke up from the 90s and is trying to pretend they've been 'with it' the whole time. It would certainly explain a lot.

Why is mine an outlier when Bristol to Cardiff isn't? They're literally both the farthest and nearest destinations between England and Wales at present. Do you enjoy being a monumental hypoctite? You're not blessed up top, are you, Phil?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote: As I've said their plan is to ring fence the Prem not expand.

Because, as noted, that's the first step to expansion.


Nope.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:26 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

How so? You've replied 'spot on' twice now to comments that are in direct contradiction with what you apparently are stating you believe. That's the height of stupidity. Less shooting yourself in the foot and more like that Welsh fan who blew his own b0llocks off when they won the Grand Slam.

How so? You made a claim that cross nation leagues will become less popular in times of global pandemics, thus inferring that it's better to remain within national boundaries to play teams local to you. Those are arguments in favour of an AW league, something you've claimed to not be in favour of. That's why you shot yourself in the foot. It doesn't take long to highlight these shortcomings, does it?
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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:27 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

I'm going to have to ask you to re-phrase or at least expand upon what you mean as I cannot for the life of me understand how that could be a negative?

You don't think that its a negative that teams in your pyramid don't want to reach its top? Seriously?

It's not a negative for the clubs as businesses and organisations as regardless of on field performance, it's the off field stuff that will kill them.
The best example is the ground situation for Championship clubs - very few of them have a stadium that would meet Premiership standards, indeed until the London Welsh court case they would have been refused entry into the Premiership if their ground was not of the standard the Premiership had set - even after the LW victory, all that they won was that they could come up providing they had access to a ground of the appropriate standard - in LW's case that meant moving the Oxford and spending a huge chunk of income on renting a stadium there.
Of the clubs in the Championship as at the end of last season only Newcastle and Leeds had suitable grounds, everyone else would have to relocate or redevelop massively and quickly.
The problem is with the Premiership clubs and the PRL who insist on these standards, to keep their cosy club cartel, preferring one yo-yo team to the prospect of having to go to Doncaster, Ealing or Richmond.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:27 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Really. Hadn't seen that regarding the WRUs statement. Have you got a link and I'll have a read.
I do get that you'd like to play in the English league as you appear to have a dislike of the Irish and somehow feel you could flourish in the English league.

Look for the Joint Supporters Group on Twitter when they publish their notes.

I can't get why your sole claimed fear of an AW league is based on a financial nonsense.

So nothing official then.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:28 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

I need to you to expand upon what you mean to be honest. It's vague yet seems specific at the same time. In principle, no, absolutely not. It's naive, if not outright dense, to think that all teams can by definition challenge for 'the top' at any given time.

Please expand this point as I cannot see how it's a negative, and certainly not in comparison to the alternative in a conference system of ringfenced teams i.e. The Celtic Warriors, The Borders, Aironi, the Dragons.

Just say what you mean, please. These half witted questions aren't the gotchas you think they are, so why not spell out what you want to say.

Oh dear. This is getting really strange, but here goes:

Of the 12 teams playing in the Greene King IPA Championship, how many would accept promotion if they won it? And, if that answer is not "all of the teams" doesn't that show a fundamental problem with the "pyramid system" as you call it?

It was about 6 from memory.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:28 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Perhaps you haven't noticed but the Blues are a region, not a club. It would make sense if you're some kind of Rip van Winkel figure who just woke up from the 90s and is trying to pretend they've been 'with it' the whole time. It would certainly explain a lot.

Why is mine an outlier when Bristol to Cardiff isn't? They're literally both the farthest and nearest destinations between England and Wales at present. Do you enjoy being a monumental hypoctite? You're not blessed up top, are you, Phil?

Oh dear.

Can't you remember the two standalones who are clubs and regions? I know that you can.

Yours is an outlier because Newcastle is the geographical outlier. That's the definition of an outlier. That's why you didn't choose Exeter, Bath, Bristol, Gloucester, Worcester, Barnet, Brentford, Coventry, Northampton, Manchester or Leicester. You chose the outlier.

You don't seem to be too happy when you get called out, which is a shame. How are you on being woke?
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:28 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

I need to you to expand upon what you mean to be honest. It's vague yet seems specific at the same time. In principle, no, absolutely not. It's naive, if not outright dense, to think that all teams can by definition challenge for 'the top' at any given time.

Please expand this point as I cannot see how it's a negative, and certainly not in comparison to the alternative in a conference system of ringfenced teams i.e. The Celtic Warriors, The Borders, Aironi, the Dragons.

Just say what you mean, please. These half witted questions aren't the gotchas you think they are, so why not spell out what you want to say.

Oh dear. This is getting really strange, but here goes:

Of the 12 teams playing in the Greene King IPA Championship, how many would accept promotion if they won it? And, if that answer is not "all of the teams" doesn't that show a fundamental problem with the "pyramid system" as you call it?

No, it's not a fundamental flaw in the system whasoever. Why is that totally arbitrary barometer or metric being used to castigate it? Honestly, can you explain why that's a problem?

Have the Dragons competed for the Celtic League playoffs or title in the last 15 years? Do Zebre or Treviso (or Aironi)? Did the Kings or the Sunwolves?

Do Norwich compete for the Premier League title? Do Wrexham compete for the Championship?

What are you actually talking about?

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Really. Hadn't seen that regarding the WRUs statement. Have you got a link and I'll have a read.
I do get that you'd like to play in the English league as you appear to have a dislike of the Irish and somehow feel you could flourish in the English league.

Look for the Joint Supporters Group on Twitter when they publish their notes.

I can't get why your sole claimed fear of an AW league is based on a financial nonsense.

So nothing official then.

An official meeting with the CEO and Ops Director of the WRU is 'noting official'. Fair play, that's your most contrary post so far today.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:31 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

No, it's not a fundamental flaw in the system whasoever. Why is that totally arbitrary barometer or metric being used to castigate it? Honestly, can you explain why that's a problem?

Have the Dragons competed for the Celtic League playoffs or title in the last 15 years? Do Zebre or Treviso (or Aironi)? Did the Kings or the Sunwolves?

Do Norwich compete for the Premier League title? Do Wrexham compete for the Championship?

What are you actually talking about?

It's not a fundamental flaw in the system that half or so of the Championship teams don't wish to be promoted?

You've tried to compare a desire to hit a false ceiling in the pyramid system with an inability to be promoted because of talent in a pyramid system. That's really odd.

Your Norwich analogy is also false because Norwich did accept promotion to the top tier of its pyramid, so your wish here is to defend a pyramid system by using analogies that have nothing to do with English rugby's pyramid.

Did you use to be a solicitor?
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

How so? You've replied 'spot on' twice now to comments that are in direct contradiction with what you apparently are stating you believe. That's the height of stupidity. Less shooting yourself in the foot and more like that Welsh fan who blew his own b0llocks off when they won the Grand Slam.

How so? You made a claim that cross nation leagues will become less popular in times of global pandemics, thus inferring that it's better to remain within national boundaries to play teams local to you. Those are arguments in favour of an AW league, something you've claimed to not be in favour of. That's why you shot yourself in the foot. It doesn't take long to highlight these shortcomings, does it?

"Less popular"? Where on earth did you read that? It's quite obvious in practical terms that cross border competitions are, currently, on hold. At least in rugby they're only just getting started again.

The irony is, I've claimed nothing about an English-Welsh league. That's the funny thing, you're arguing against something in your own mind and projecting it out on to everyone else. Your fantasy delusions about an English-Welsh league are just that: fantasies. I have no idea why you desperately want to keep talking about it. It's just not relevant to the thread. Everything you have said, or wanted to say, could have been written in one parapgraph in one comment. Instead you've managed to turn it in to several pages of mind numbing 'arguments'. Why?

As I said, you don't really make much sense, do you, Phil. You keep replying 'spot on' to comments that are literally the opposite of your stated opinion.

This is just embarrassing.

Once again, in terms of shooting, I hope no one ever gives you control of a firearm. Dangerous. Very dangerous.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:32 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

It's not a negative for the clubs as businesses and organisations as regardless of on field performance, it's the off field stuff that will kill them.
The best example is the ground situation for Championship clubs - very few of them have a stadium that would meet Premiership standards, indeed until the London Welsh court case they would have been refused entry into the Premiership if their ground was not of the standard the Premiership had set - even after the LW victory, all that they won was that they could come up providing they had access to a ground of the appropriate standard - in LW's case that meant moving the Oxford and spending a huge chunk of income on renting a stadium there.
Of the clubs in the Championship as at the end of last season only Newcastle and Leeds had suitable grounds, everyone else would have to relocate or redevelop massively and quickly.
The problem is with the Premiership clubs and the PRL who insist on these standards, to keep their cosy club cartel, preferring one yo-yo team to the prospect of having to go to Doncaster, Ealing or Richmond.

Yep. So there's a cost of entry that's prohibitive. That's called a barrier to entry. That's why the English pyramid is broken, as it's produced too few teams for it to function competitively.

And so we're back where we started.
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:35 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Perhaps you haven't noticed but the Blues are a region, not a club. It would make sense if you're some kind of Rip van Winkel figure who just woke up from the 90s and is trying to pretend they've been 'with it' the whole time. It would certainly explain a lot.

Why is mine an outlier when Bristol to Cardiff isn't? They're literally both the farthest and nearest destinations between England and Wales at present. Do you enjoy being a monumental hypoctite? You're not blessed up top, are you, Phil?

Oh dear.

Can't you remember the two standalones who are clubs and regions? I know that you can.

Yours is an outlier because Newcastle is the geographical outlier. That's the definition of an outlier. That's why you didn't choose Exeter, Bath, Bristol, Gloucester, Worcester, Barnet, Brentford, Coventry, Northampton, Manchester or Leicester. You chose the outlier.

You don't seem to be too happy when you get called out, which is a shame. How are you on being woke?

But Exeter to Cardiff is 113 miles. That's halfway from Llanelli to Dublin. Why would you group that along with Bristol? Bristol to Cardiff is the outlier as they're almost in spitting difference across the water.

How are you entertained by this? Seriously? Are you married? Employed? Friendless? What's going on? This is absolutely mind numbing and I feel my brain cells rotting while coversing with you - but you seem to be having fun. What's going on...?! Are you ok!?

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:35 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

"Less popular"? Where on earth did you read that? It's quite obvious in practical terms that cross border competitions are, currently, on hold. At least in rugby they're only just getting started again.

The irony is, I've claimed nothing about an English-Welsh league. That's the funny thing, you're arguing against something in your own mind and projecting it out on to everyone else. Your fantasy delusions about an English-Welsh league are just that: fantasies. I have no idea why you desperately want to keep talking about it. It's just not relevant to the thread. Everything you have said, or wanted to say, could have been written in one parapgraph in one comment. Instead you've managed to turn it in to several pages of mind numbing 'arguments'. Why?

As I said, you don't really make much sense, do you, Phil. You keep replying 'spot on' to comments that are literally the opposite of your stated opinion.

This is just embarrassing.

Once again, in terms of shooting, I hope no one ever gives you control of a firearm. Dangerous. Very dangerous.

You wrote (and I quote):

"It makes particular sense if pandemic infections are going to become a regular thing: the ability to shut down to the outside world but still maintain some normality within a country seems useful. Who knows what this 'new normal' will look?"

Normality within a country. Yep. Britain. Done. So that's an argument against the PrO'14.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:36 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

But Exeter to Cardiff is 113 miles. That's halfway from Llanelli to Dublin. Why would you group that along with Bristol? Bristol to Cardiff is the outlier as they're almost in spitting difference across the water.

How are you entertained by this? Seriously? Are you married? Employed? Friendless? What's going on? This is absolutely mind numbing and I feel my brain cells rotting while coversing with you - but you seem to be having fun. What's going on...?! Are you ok!?

Very Powellian.

You do realise that Llanelli to Dublin requires a ferry, right? Whereas driving from Llanelli to Exeter is very doable? I know that you do, so I'm not sure why you're writing the posts that you are.

Nobody sane would argue against the geographical sense of an Anglo-Welsh league.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:41 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Really. Hadn't seen that regarding the WRUs statement. Have you got a link and I'll have a read.
I do get that you'd like to play in the English league as you appear to have a dislike of the Irish and somehow feel you could flourish in the English league.

Look for the Joint Supporters Group on Twitter when they publish their notes.

I can't get why your sole claimed fear of an AW league is based on a financial nonsense.

So nothing official then.

An official meeting with the CEO and Ops Director of the WRU is 'noting official'. Fair play, that's your most contrary post so far today.

So you feel that's an official statement from the WRU that has agreement from the PRL? I think its some desperate Welsh fans wishing ever so hard.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So you feel that's an official statement from the WRU that has agreement from the PRL? I think its some desperate Welsh fans wishing ever so hard.

So you're including the WRU CEO and OD in that group of "desperate Welsh fans wishing ever so hard"?
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:45 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

No, it's not a fundamental flaw in the system whasoever. Why is that totally arbitrary barometer or metric being used to castigate it? Honestly, can you explain why that's a problem?

Have the Dragons competed for the Celtic League playoffs or title in the last 15 years? Do Zebre or Treviso (or Aironi)? Did the Kings or the Sunwolves?

Do Norwich compete for the Premier League title? Do Wrexham compete for the Championship?

What are you actually talking about?

It's not a fundamental flaw in the system that half or so of the Championship teams don't wish to be promoted?

You've tried to compare a desire to hit a false ceiling in the pyramid system with an inability to be promoted because of talent in a pyramid system. That's really odd.

Your Norwich analogy is also false because Norwich did accept promotion to the top tier of its pyramid, so your wish here is to defend a pyramid system by using analogies that have nothing to do with English rugby's pyramid.

Did you use to be a solicitor?

Can you please go in to more details about this. You've the one made the claim, not me. It's not encumbent on your to justify what you're actually talking about, not merely keep repeating the same question over and over as if it is self evident.

What do you mean 'a problem'? Why? Details, examples etc.

Otherwise I assume you don't have a clue what you're talking about and consider this another topic you're great on.

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

But Exeter to Cardiff is 113 miles. That's halfway from Llanelli to Dublin. Why would you group that along with Bristol? Bristol to Cardiff is the outlier as they're almost in spitting difference across the water.

How are you entertained by this? Seriously? Are you married? Employed? Friendless? What's going on? This is absolutely mind numbing and I feel my brain cells rotting while coversing with you - but you seem to be having fun. What's going on...?! Are you ok!?

Very Powellian.

You do realise that Llanelli to Dublin requires a ferry, right? Whereas driving from Llanelli to Exeter is very doable? I know that you do, so I'm not sure why you're writing the posts that you are.

Nobody sane would argue against the geographical sense of an Anglo-Welsh league.

Why is driving 'doable' but a ferry is problematic? Are you aware that if you travel by ferry you're not the one manning the ship? Are you aware that if you travel with the club or with fan club organised groups then it's really neither 'here nor there' how you travel? Why is driving for 6+ hours 'doable' but driving the short distance from Llanelli to Fishguard and then up the Irish coast not 'doable'?

I think you're just making this up as you go along and are pretending that Bristol to Cardiff is the norm rather than exception.

Porky pies, Phil. Stop picking outliers if you don't like the alternative outlier shoved back in your face!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:47 pm

Apparently so. There's no official statement as its a pipe dream. I get why you want to be part of the English league as you feel travel is easier but that doesn't translate to the English wanting you. Honest question but how long have you been banging on about this. For years on here at least. Each time this league was about to materialise....and yet still we wait. It probably does deserve its own thread rather than talk about how the English/PRL intend to move forward as the latter is a concrete and stated intention rather than the former being your wishlist tbh.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:48 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Can you please go in to more details about this. You've the one made the claim, not me. It's not encumbent on your to justify what you're actually talking about, not merely keep repeating the same question over and over as if it is self evident.

What do you mean 'a problem'? Why? Details, examples etc.

Otherwise I assume you don't have a clue what you're talking about and consider this another topic you're great on.

You missed out a word in your attempted silly jibe, by the way.

It must be that you can't see the posts from 71/2 in this thread as he's explained numerous times that Doncaster would refuse promotion to the GP. He's written in this thread that half the teams in the Championship would refuse promotion. Another poster has posted how other clubs have insufficient facilities to be promoted.

So your pyramid is broken when this happens and the reason it's broken is the reason why it can't be fixed: money. It's broken because it costs too much to be promoted and the sum it costs to be promoted cannot be lowered, so it's broken forever.
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:49 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

"Less popular"? Where on earth did you read that? It's quite obvious in practical terms that cross border competitions are, currently, on hold. At least in rugby they're only just getting started again.

The irony is, I've claimed nothing about an English-Welsh league. That's the funny thing, you're arguing against something in your own mind and projecting it out on to everyone else. Your fantasy delusions about an English-Welsh league are just that: fantasies. I have no idea why you desperately want to keep talking about it. It's just not relevant to the thread. Everything you have said, or wanted to say, could have been written in one parapgraph in one comment. Instead you've managed to turn it in to several pages of mind numbing 'arguments'. Why?

As I said, you don't really make much sense, do you, Phil. You keep replying 'spot on' to comments that are literally the opposite of your stated opinion.

This is just embarrassing.

Once again, in terms of shooting, I hope no one ever gives you control of a firearm. Dangerous. Very dangerous.

You wrote (and I quote):

"It makes particular sense if pandemic infections are going to become a regular thing: the ability to shut down to the outside world but still maintain some normality within a country seems useful. Who knows what this 'new normal' will look?"

Normality within a country. Yep. Britain. Done. So that's an argument against the PrO'14.

It is an argument against the Pro14's cross border competition. Why on earth you'd think that the negative of one thing necessarily means the perfect positive for something else is beyond me to answer: it certainly isn't an argument in favour of an Anglo Welsh competition any more than it is an argument for an internal Welsh competition or an internal English competition.

Perhaps you haven't travelled very far in life but there is a border between England and Wales.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:50 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Why is driving 'doable' but a ferry is problematic? Are you aware that if you travel by ferry you're not the one manning the ship? Are you aware that if you travel with the club or with fan club organised groups then it's really neither 'here nor there' how you travel? Why is driving for 6+ hours 'doable' but driving the short distance from Llanelli to Fishguard and then up the Irish coast not 'doable'?

I think you're just making this up as you go along and are pretending that Bristol to Cardiff is the norm rather than exception.

Porky pies, Phil. Stop picking outliers if you don't like the alternative outlier shoved back in your face!

Driving is doable but a ferry is problematic because of the travel time. I mean, needing to write such a statement is an indication of just how low the argument has to be pitched for you to understand it.

A ferry would need to be booked, it's also more expensive, it limits options and it often requires time off work in order to get to an away game. Most of those issues disappear with Anglo-Welsh fixtures.

Again, these are the very basics of the basic knowledge of the topic in hand. Having to even write them as an explanation to you is pitiful.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:50 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

Can you please go in to more details about this. You've the one made the claim, not me. It's not encumbent on your to justify what you're actually talking about, not merely keep repeating the same question over and over as if it is self evident.

What do you mean 'a problem'? Why? Details, examples etc.

Otherwise I assume you don't have a clue what you're talking about and consider this another topic you're great on.

You missed out a word in your attempted silly jibe, by the way.

It must be that you can't see the posts from 71/2 in this thread as he's explained numerous times that Doncaster would refuse promotion to the GP. He's written in this thread that half the teams in the Championship would refuse promotion. Another poster has posted how other clubs have insufficient facilities to be promoted.

So your pyramid is broken when this happens and the reason it's broken is the reason why it can't be fixed: money. It's broken because it costs too much to be promoted and the sum it costs to be promoted cannot be lowered, so it's broken forever.

Well it works ok for Doncaster at least at present. How the move to ring fencing affects things is under discussion, or was before covid.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:51 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
It is an argument against the Pro14's cross border competition. Why on earth you'd think that the negative of one thing necessarily means the perfect positive for something else is beyond me to answer: it certainly isn't an argument in favour of an Anglo Welsh competition any more than it is an argument for an internal Welsh competition or an internal English competition.

Perhaps you haven't travelled very far in life but there is a border between England and Wales.

Of course it is an argument in favour - as you wrote, national leagues. Your words.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Apparently so. There's no official statement as its a pipe dream. I get why you want to be part of the English league as you feel travel is easier but that doesn't translate to the English wanting you. Honest question but how long have you been banging on about this. For years on here at least. Each time this league was about to materialise....and yet still we wait. It probably does deserve its own thread rather than talk about how the English/PRL intend to move forward as the latter is a concrete and stated intention rather than the former being your wishlist tbh.

I've been banging on about this since it was first offered in the professional era and then I've banged until it was offered again and now I'm banging on because its on the table again.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:54 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

I agree Wales is too small to support fully professional club rugby on it's own, as are Ireland, Scotland and Italy, I wonder if a mutually agreeable solution could be found ? Maybe some sort of joint league?


Even better, how about all of the union owned teams play in one competition and the proper clubs play in another?

p.s. England is also too small.

Why do I get the feeling that it's not the ownership that bothers you Phil, it's the success? You never seem to have a go at Scotland or Italy who have basically the same systems.

Where do WRU owned Dragons sit in your new league then ?

Incidentally you have regions (sort of like provinces) rather than clubs in Wales anyway.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:57 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

Why do I get the feeling that it's not the ownership that bothers you Phil, it's the success? You never seem to have a go at Scotland or Italy who have basically the same systems.

Where do WRU owned Dragons sit in your new league then ?

Incidentally you have regions (sort of like provinces) rather than clubs in Wales anyway.

One of Italy's teams isn't privately owned and, as far as I know, both Scottish teams are still up for sale.

Buttress has stated that his purchase will complete post-Covid.

Incidentally, no we don't. We have two standalone clubs, one Union owned shambles and another team owned by an Asian company.
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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 2:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

Can you please go in to more details about this. You've the one made the claim, not me. It's not encumbent on your to justify what you're actually talking about, not merely keep repeating the same question over and over as if it is self evident.

What do you mean 'a problem'? Why? Details, examples etc.

Otherwise I assume you don't have a clue what you're talking about and consider this another topic you're great on.

You missed out a word in your attempted silly jibe, by the way.

It must be that you can't see the posts from 71/2 in this thread as he's explained numerous times that Doncaster would refuse promotion to the GP. He's written in this thread that half the teams in the Championship would refuse promotion. Another poster has posted how other clubs have insufficient facilities to be promoted.

So your pyramid is broken when this happens and the reason it's broken is the reason why it can't be fixed: money. It's broken because it costs too much to be promoted and the sum it costs to be promoted cannot be lowered, so it's broken forever.

No it doesn't seem broken at all. It seems a necessary and fundamentally useful way of creating a hierarchy of clubs as rugby grows from amateurism to professionalism. In absence of anything better than an internal league competition catering to both competition and growth over extended periods time, and without killing clubs artificially through ring fencing or forcing them to compete at a level beyond their means, this minor issue seems just that: minor. Certainly, you should be more concerned with the strongest arguments in favour of each system and this trivial point is just evidence that the world isn't perfect and reality isn't black and white. I get the sense you're something of a dreamer and a fantasist, Phil, and that the fact reality is flawed and requires compromises doesn't sit well with you, hence why you seem to be living in the hypothetical all the time: the solution is always a theory, it never seems to be based in reality. That's black and white thinking and it's no way for a grown adult to live.

Can you actually justify what you mean instead of gesticulating emotionally with leading questions that are devoid of substance. Instead of claiming something as self evident can you please just flesh out your full thoughts? It would save you spreading out over several pages and would also be useful to know what you're actually thinking. It would then be possible to slam dunk your silly ideas in to oblivion in one comment instead of this silly back and forth.

If you don't do this in the next comment I have to admit I'm out, you're far too persistent for me.

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:01 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Why is driving 'doable' but a ferry is problematic? Are you aware that if you travel by ferry you're not the one manning the ship? Are you aware that if you travel with the club or with fan club organised groups then it's really neither 'here nor there' how you travel? Why is driving for 6+ hours 'doable' but driving the short distance from Llanelli to Fishguard and then up the Irish coast not 'doable'?

I think you're just making this up as you go along and are pretending that Bristol to Cardiff is the norm rather than exception.

Porky pies, Phil. Stop picking outliers if you don't like the alternative outlier shoved back in your face!

Driving is doable but a ferry is problematic because of the travel time. I mean, needing to write such a statement is an indication of just how low the argument has to be pitched for you to understand it.

A ferry would need to be booked, it's also more expensive, it limits options and it often requires time off work in order to get to an away game. Most of those issues disappear with Anglo-Welsh fixtures.

Again, these are the very basics of the basic knowledge of the topic in hand. Having to even write them as an explanation to you is pitiful.

I'm sorry but this is just fantasy, Phil. Total fantasy. None of the problems as you see them disappear with a Friday night or Sunday afternoon trip from Llanelli to Exeter (or London, or Coventry). You're living in a dream world and using Bristol to Cardiff as your model. Oh dear.

When was the last time you drove down to Exeter, out of interest? It would be good to hear you really flesh out 'doable'.

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Why is driving 'doable' but a ferry is problematic? Are you aware that if you travel by ferry you're not the one manning the ship? Are you aware that if you travel with the club or with fan club organised groups then it's really neither 'here nor there' how you travel? Why is driving for 6+ hours 'doable' but driving the short distance from Llanelli to Fishguard and then up the Irish coast not 'doable'?

I think you're just making this up as you go along and are pretending that Bristol to Cardiff is the norm rather than exception.

Porky pies, Phil. Stop picking outliers if you don't like the alternative outlier shoved back in your face!

Driving is doable but a ferry is problematic because of the travel time. I mean, needing to write such a statement is an indication of just how low the argument has to be pitched for you to understand it.

A ferry would need to be booked, it's also more expensive, it limits options and it often requires time off work in order to get to an away game. Most of those issues disappear with Anglo-Welsh fixtures.

Again, these are the very basics of the basic knowledge of the topic in hand. Having to even write them as an explanation to you is pitiful.

I'm sorry but this is just fantasy, Phil. Total fantasy. None of the problems as you see them disappear with a Friday night or Sunday afternoon trip from Llanelli to Exeter (or London, or Coventry). You're living in a dream world and using Bristol to Cardiff as your model. Oh dear.

When was the last time you drove down to Exeter, out of interest? It would be good to hear you really flesh out 'doable'. Or better yet, have you ever actually been on a ferry trip over to Ireland?

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:03 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
It is an argument against the Pro14's cross border competition. Why on earth you'd think that the negative of one thing necessarily means the perfect positive for something else is beyond me to answer: it certainly isn't an argument in favour of an Anglo Welsh competition any more than it is an argument for an internal Welsh competition or an internal English competition.

Perhaps you haven't travelled very far in life but there is a border between England and Wales.

Of course it is an argument in favour - as you wrote, national leagues. Your words.

Again, I'm going to have to ask - do you know there's a border between Wales and England? Do you understand what that means?

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:04 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
No it doesn't seem broken at all. It seems a necessary and fundamentally useful way of creating a hierarchy of clubs as rugby grows from amateurism to professionalism. In absence of anything better than an internal league competition catering to both competition and growth over extended periods time, and without killing clubs artificially through ring fencing or forcing them to compete at a level beyond their means, this minor issue seems just that: minor.

Ring fencing won't force a team to compete beyond its means. Ring fencing ensures clubs compete at the level of their means.

Still, if you think that the English pyramid (where half of level 2 doesn't want to go in to level 1) is working then so be it.
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:06 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

I'm sorry but this is just fantasy, Phil. Total fantasy. None of the problems as you see them disappear with a Friday night or Sunday afternoon trip from Llanelli to Exeter (or London, or Coventry). You're living in a dream world and using Bristol to Cardiff as your model. Oh dear.

When was the last time you drove down to Exeter, out of interest? It would be good to hear you really flesh out 'doable'.

Of course they do. For starters, look at the number of Scarlets fans at the last Rag Doll game in Bath.

Llanelli to Exeter is about 3 hours. That's more than doable on a Friday evening or Sunday afternoon.

I went to the Cardiff game in Exeter a couple of years ago and went to my cousin's funeral in Exeter last year. It's not a long journey for an adult.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:06 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
It is an argument against the Pro14's cross border competition. Why on earth you'd think that the negative of one thing necessarily means the perfect positive for something else is beyond me to answer: it certainly isn't an argument in favour of an Anglo Welsh competition any more than it is an argument for an internal Welsh competition or an internal English competition.

Perhaps you haven't travelled very far in life but there is a border between England and Wales.

Of course it is an argument in favour - as you wrote, national leagues. Your words.

So you want national leagues, except for Welsh clubs who will play in the English league?

OK apart from the geography argument, what do the Welsh bring to this party - I'm a London Irish supporter so tell me what adding three Welsh teams to the Premiership will do for my club which means they'll be better off than in the current situation?

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Post by Guest on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:07 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
No it doesn't seem broken at all. It seems a necessary and fundamentally useful way of creating a hierarchy of clubs as rugby grows from amateurism to professionalism. In absence of anything better than an internal league competition catering to both competition and growth over extended periods time, and without killing clubs artificially through ring fencing or forcing them to compete at a level beyond their means, this minor issue seems just that: minor.

Ring fencing won't force a team to compete beyond its means. Ring fencing ensures clubs compete at the level of their means.

Still, if you think that the English pyramid (where half of level 2 doesn't want to go in to level 1) is working then so be it.

Except the reality has borne that out to be a total fantasy. The Scarlets required massive financial help from the WRU about a decade ago. The Dragons have been taken over by the WRU just to remain in business and 'in competition' within a ringfenced competition where they have been the whipping boys for 15 years. Plenty of businesses, regions, clubs have gone out of business as a result of trying to compete in a ringfenced competition instead of being allowed the very natural result of failure within a league system: relegation and restructuring of the business to compete at a lower level.

The fact you don't seem to grasp this is baffling, truly baffling.

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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:07 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
It is an argument against the Pro14's cross border competition. Why on earth you'd think that the negative of one thing necessarily means the perfect positive for something else is beyond me to answer: it certainly isn't an argument in favour of an Anglo Welsh competition any more than it is an argument for an internal Welsh competition or an internal English competition.

Perhaps you haven't travelled very far in life but there is a border between England and Wales.

Of course it is an argument in favour - as you wrote, national leagues. Your words.

Again, I'm going to have to ask - do you know there's a border between Wales and England? Do you understand what that means?

Should I post a picture of my British passport or have you taken enough ridicule (it's up there with your NFL claim) for shooting yourself in the foot?
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:09 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Except the reality has borne that out to be a total fantasy. The Scarlets required massive financial help from the WRU about a decade ago. The Dragons have been taken over by the WRU just to remain in business and 'in competition' within a ringfenced competition where they have been the whipping boys for 15 years. Plenty of businesses, regions, clubs have gone out of business as a result of trying to compete in a ringfenced competition instead of being allowed the very natural result of failure within a league system: relegation and restructuring of the business to compete at a lower level.

The fact you don't seem to grasp this is baffling, truly baffling.

Sorry, when did the Scarlets take financial help from the WRU a decade ago? Do tell. Please provide details.

Name me the "plenty of businesses, regions, clubs" that "have gone out of business as a result of trying to compete in a ringfenced competition"
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Post by PhilBB on Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:10 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

So you want national leagues, except for Welsh clubs who will play in the English league?

OK apart from the geography argument, what do the Welsh bring to this party - I'm a London Irish supporter so tell me what adding three Welsh teams to the Premiership will do for my club which means they'll be better off than in the current situation?

And we've reached this part of the argument again: none of this will happen unless CVC wish it to happen and, if CVC wish it to happen, that means there will be more money for all involved.

It's that simple.
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