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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Davie
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I'm never wrong
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Post by McLaren Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Navy

And what super has also missed is that the statues and TV shows are not really the main focus of the protests. They are easy news bites to bring up but the meat of the protesters argument is about equality for black people.

I also don't think super is correct that just because you support BLM you don't also worry about atrocities committed in other spheres of life. It is just that currently the focus is on racism towards black people.

As much as he hates America, Super would really fit into their libertarian ways.
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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 am

McLaren wrote:Super

The way I look at it is that from a strictly epidemiological sense a protest obviously doesn't make sense, especially to a couple of middle class white guys in Scotland like us. But maybe we just have to accept that other people have, with full capacity, decided that it does warrant the risk of increased viral spread to protest against racism. And given we haven't experienced racism maybe we just have to trust them that this was the right thing to do. This trust is not blind either, because there is enough evidence out there to show just how harmful racism still is.

As ben pointed out playing covid suppression off against anti racism protests is a pretty difficult question, I honestly don't feel equipped to make a call on what should have happened.



I've no doubt that their experience of racism is different to what we may perceive and I'm sure they feel very strongly about it, but that doesn't mean their protests were sensible or even necessary. When there is a second wave I hope they are decent enough to stand up and take responsibility for their part in it.

You could also say that the doomsday environmental cults have a right to be protesting, but they aren't. They've largely realised what's the bigger issue right now.
Racism groups should realise they aren't more important than the virus.
We could seriously have protests every single day about something, but thankfully most people are maintaining distance apart from these protests, raves, street parties (inexplicably blaming police for breaking them up), planks on Bournemouth beach etc.

My point is simply that now is not the time for protests, and it really doesn't matter what your cause is. You don't get special treatment for it when there's a fatal disease around.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:26 am

Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:31 am

beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.

Why do you bother with stuff like Twitter where you see comments like that?
I've never understood the fascination people have with twitter. It's an absolute sewer.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

The way I look at it is that from a strictly epidemiological sense a protest obviously doesn't make sense, especially to a couple of middle class white guys in Scotland like us. But maybe we just have to accept that other people have, with full capacity, decided that it does warrant the risk of increased viral spread to protest against racism. And given we haven't experienced racism maybe we just have to trust them that this was the right thing to do. This trust is not blind either, because there is enough evidence out there to show just how harmful racism still is.

As ben pointed out playing covid suppression off against anti racism protests is a pretty difficult question, I honestly don't feel equipped to make a call on what should have happened.



I've no doubt that their experience of racism is different to what we may perceive and I'm sure they feel very strongly about it, but that doesn't mean their protests were sensible or even necessary. When there is a second wave I hope they are decent enough to stand up and take responsibility for their part in it.

You could also say that the doomsday environmental cults have a right to be protesting, but they aren't. They've largely realised what's the bigger issue right now.
Racism groups should realise they aren't more important than the virus.
We could seriously have protests every single day about something, but thankfully most people are maintaining distance apart from these protests, raves, street parties (inexplicably blaming police for breaking them up), planks on Bournemouth beach etc.

My point is simply that now is not the time for protests, and it really doesn't matter what your cause is. You don't get special treatment for it when there's a fatal disease around.

Realist tells black people what to think.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:34 am

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.

Why do you bother with stuff like Twitter where you see comments like that?
I've never understood the fascination people have with twitter. It's an absolute sewer.

Its good to read and see peoples points of view, even if lots are terrible. Man yesterday said asylum seekers should be demonised after the Glasgow stabbing. Asylum seekers, not just the one person. Lots agreed. Its interesting and sometimes can have good debates.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:39 am

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

The way I look at it is that from a strictly epidemiological sense a protest obviously doesn't make sense, especially to a couple of middle class white guys in Scotland like us. But maybe we just have to accept that other people have, with full capacity, decided that it does warrant the risk of increased viral spread to protest against racism. And given we haven't experienced racism maybe we just have to trust them that this was the right thing to do. This trust is not blind either, because there is enough evidence out there to show just how harmful racism still is.

As ben pointed out playing covid suppression off against anti racism protests is a pretty difficult question, I honestly don't feel equipped to make a call on what should have happened.



I've no doubt that their experience of racism is different to what we may perceive and I'm sure they feel very strongly about it, but that doesn't mean their protests were sensible or even necessary. When there is a second wave I hope they are decent enough to stand up and take responsibility for their part in it.

You could also say that the doomsday environmental cults have a right to be protesting, but they aren't. They've largely realised what's the bigger issue right now.
Racism groups should realise they aren't more important than the virus.
We could seriously have protests every single day about something, but thankfully most people are maintaining distance apart from these protests, raves, street parties (inexplicably blaming police for breaking them up), planks on Bournemouth beach etc.

My point is simply that now is not the time for protests, and it really doesn't matter what your cause is. You don't get special treatment for it when there's a fatal disease around.

Realist tells black people what to think.

Where did I tell them what to think?
Anyone with a brain can see now is not to time to have mass gatherings.
If there was a protest in relation to having a no deal or something like that you'd be losing it, but because its a right on woke issue, you brush it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:48 am

Racism groups should realise they aren't more important than a virus. Is that not telling them what to think? That they should think the same as you?

And again, you are trying to invent an argument against me, I've said, for a while, I wouldn't have protested but I can undeerstand why people did.

Good to see you invented something that didn't happen to back up your views.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:52 am

beninho wrote:Racism groups should realise they aren't more important than a virus. Is that not telling them what to think? That they should think the same as you?

And again, you are trying to invent an argument against me, I've said, for a while, I wouldn't have protested but I can undeerstand why people did.  

Good to see you invented something that didn't happen to back up your views.

No group is more important than the virus that's the entire purpose of social distancing.

You're the one trying to force an argument by claiming I'm telling people what to think when clearly the only sensible position is that no mass gathering gets special treatment over another or the whole thing falls apart just as it has been.

You're being a WUM just to be contrary like you always are.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:20 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?
Covid 19 obviously. The institutional racism in US policing that is driving the worldwide BLM movement is largely a myth.

To make a sweeping statement like that I assume you've done some research that you can point us to that is clear and conclusive. By which I mean evidence that blacks are treated equally to whites by the US police.
The burden of proof isn't on me, its on those who charge entire institutions with being racist. There's no evidence on which to make that charge.
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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:22 am

While, i do like a win up. Just because I hold different views, doesn't mean I'm just winding you up. You are not that interesting.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:31 am

Yet, when I have a different view about social distancing, you accuse me of telling black people what to think, rather than permitting me that common sense opinion.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:35 am

super_realist wrote:Yet, when I have a different view about social distancing, you accuse me of telling black people what to think, rather than permitting me that common sense opinion.  

Yes, you have more common sense then the blacks. OK.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:40 am

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Yet, when I have a different view about social distancing, you accuse me of telling black people what to think, rather than permitting me that common sense opinion.  

Yes, you have more common sense then the blacks. OK.


Is it sensible at the present time to have mass gatherings of tens of thousands? No. There you go.

You yourself have said you wouldn't attend, so clearly don't think it's a good idea either.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:46 am

beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:47 am

But, you accept that some people will think protesting about inequality and racism faced in the uk and the wider world is more important to what you think is sensible? Or do you think everyone should think the same as you?

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:49 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:51 am

beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.
I can do whatever ever I want as long as I feel strongly enough about doing it, good to know.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:53 am

beninho wrote:But, you accept that some people will think protesting about inequality and racism faced in the uk and the wider world is more important to what you think is sensible? Or do you think everyone should think the same as you?

It's not what I think, it's about what is factual and scientific and the scientific concensus and evidence is that mass gatherings are not a good idea. Can you prove that the science confirms that gatherings on the basis of someone's opinions get a free pass? No.

This trumps what your personal beliefs are about something.


Last edited by super_realist on Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:54 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.
I can do whatever ever I want as long as I feel strongly enough about doing it, good to know.

Everyone is entitled to make a choice. Be that driving to a family home, going to the beach, protesting about inequality or 5g cranks. They've all been out.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:02 am

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:But, you accept that some people will think protesting about inequality and racism faced in the uk and the wider world is more important to what you think is sensible? Or do you think everyone should think the same as you?

It's not what I think, it's about what is factual and scientific and the scientific concensus and evidence is that mass gatherings are not a good idea. Can you prove that the science confirms that gatherings on the basis of someone's opinions get a free pass? No.

This trumps what your personal beliefs are about something.

Which, takes it all the way back. That people fighting inequality have taken on board the potential risks and still gone ahead with a protest. Tge fact that you nor I would not have done the same, in a way shows the strength of feeling for those involved. Probably something we would not understand. Which, is my whole point, can I understand it, yes.

Would I belittle them for their views on racism and inequality, no.


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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:17 am

It shows a level of stupidity is what it's done and they clearly haven't weighed up the risks or they would realise that they could and almost certainly will cause peoples deaths.
No protest is worth that. I'm also not belittling them for their views on racism, I'm saying that now is demonstrably and scientifically not the time for mass gatherings of any sort.

The majority of people on those marches from what I could see were people exactly like you and me (albeit with a pretentious virtue signalling and illiberal streak added in) middle class white people, so I tend to doubt their strength of feeling of those middle class white Tabatha's and Toby's  has much to do with it.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:21 am

Yes, realist. Thise stupid black people with no common sense. I get your point perfectly.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:31 am

beninho wrote:Yes, realist. Thise stupid black people with no common sense. I get your point perfectly.
 Stop acting like a child, that isnt the argument at all as well you know, was it only black people protesting? No it wasn't, pleased you've come round to accepting the government are not at fault for the pandemic now, only took three months.

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Post by super_realist Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:34 am

You have admitted that mass gatherings are not sensible, so my view is no different to yours, except that you seem to think strength of feeling can trump what is best for the health of the population, which is frankly stupid and irresponsible.

If there was a mass protest which didn't match your political voewpoint there is not a chance you would be defending or be understanding the reason for having it on the basis that the protestors "felt strongly about it".
I've also heard plenty of BAME people condemn the gatherings too.

I can understand the need and desire for a protest it's just incredibly stupid to be having them at the current time.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:40 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:Yes, realist. Thise stupid black people with no common sense. I get your point perfectly.
 Stop acting like a child, that isnt the argument at all as well you know, was it only black people protesting? No it wasn't, pleased you've come round to accepting the government are not at fault for the pandemic now, only took three months.

Who thought the government was at fault for a pandemic? I don't think boris and the simple boys, got together to inflict it on the world.


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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am

Unsure, why Jenrick hasn't been outed yet, is he just letting him ride it out to take attention away from the track and test failure? Or do they just not care. Maybe, he wishes he had got rid when he visited his parents.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:55 am

I wasn't aware that they'd done a socio-economic survey of the white people on the marches, so I admit to being impressed that super_r can tell they are middle-class from their clothes and haircuts. Or perhaps he thinks lower and upper class white don't care about racism.

In any case, given that a) people on the marches lack common sense b) most people on the marches were white, it seems that white people are stupid.

Perhaps super's bile is mainly reserved for white people who want more social equality. Are they called 'libtards' in some quarters?


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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am

incontinentia wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?
Covid 19 obviously. The institutional racism in US policing that is driving the worldwide BLM movement is largely a myth.

To make a sweeping statement like that I assume you've done some research that you can point us to that is clear and conclusive. By which I mean evidence that blacks are treated equally to whites by the US police.
The burden of proof isn't on me, its on those who charge entire institutions with being racist. There's no evidence on which to make that charge.

Do you think that overall the police in the UK and the US treat black people equally to white people? The evidence is that they don't (which is why people are protesting), but what do you think?

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Post by dynamark Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:29 am

Be careful not to criticise the scousers out on the street.Not allowed discriminatory
Re Jenrick the planning consent has actually now been refused no doubt another scheme with more social housing will get the nod but Jenrick took it off his desk so another minister will have to pick it up.I can imagine these guys get all sorts of situations like this - they used to call it lobbying.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:48 am

super_realist wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:btw I's not dismissing the 40000+ deaths from Covid. It is a tragedy and I hope one day the government are held to account for all the mistakes they made that led to that number being far far higher than it should have been. I've already protested about that as well to my MP - which actually has less effect than going on a march.

What can you hold them account with,, hindsight? Good luck with that.
Nice Ali G impersonation by the way.

Thanks, especially since I never watched Ali G. I must be a natural.

Interesting that you vehemently criticise BLM marches, lightly criticise other social gatherings, and are flippant about government mistakes that almost certainly caused a good deal more loss of life than either of the former two.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:12 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?
Covid 19 obviously. The institutional racism in US policing that is driving the worldwide BLM movement is largely a myth.

To make a sweeping statement like that I assume you've done some research that you can point us to that is clear and conclusive. By which I mean evidence that blacks are treated equally to whites by the US police.
The burden of proof isn't on me, its on those who charge entire institutions with being racist. There's no evidence on which to make that charge.

Do you think that overall the police in the UK and the US treat black people equally to white people? The evidence is that they don't (which is why people are protesting), but what do you think?
I dont know, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that entire police forces are racist. Can you point me towards that evidence? I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.

What did you think of the killing of Rayshard Brooks?
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Post by McLaren Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:11 pm

incontinentia wrote:I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.


Inco

In this model what are the reasons for blacks being disproportionately poor?
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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:12 pm

incontinentia wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?
Covid 19 obviously. The institutional racism in US policing that is driving the worldwide BLM movement is largely a myth.

To make a sweeping statement like that I assume you've done some research that you can point us to that is clear and conclusive. By which I mean evidence that blacks are treated equally to whites by the US police.
The burden of proof isn't on me, its on those who charge entire institutions with being racist. There's no evidence on which to make that charge.

Do you think that overall the police in the UK and the US treat black people equally to white people? The evidence is that they don't (which is why people are protesting), but what do you think?
I dont know, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that entire police forces are racist. Can you point me towards that evidence? I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.

What did you think of the killing of Rayshard Brooks?

If, by 'entire police forces' you mean every person on the force, then clearly that isn't the case. When the Met was found to be institutionally racist 20 years ago, I don't think it was every single cop. What would be an acceptable level of racist police - 50%, 30%, 10%?

Rayshard Brooks - the policeman involved has been charged with felony murder - which doesn't seem unreasonable.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:16 pm

McLaren wrote:
incontinentia wrote:I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.


Inco

In this model what are the reasons for blacks being disproportionately poor?
Dont know Mac, i suppose the same reasons any demographic stays poor? Not aware of any evidence of inequality of opportunity.
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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:36 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
If, by 'entire police forces' you mean every person on the force, then clearly that isn't the case. When the Met was found to be institutionally racist 20 years ago, I don't think it was every single cop. What would be an acceptable level of racist police - 50%, 30%, 10%?

Rayshard Brooks - the policeman involved has been charged with felony murder - which doesn't seem unreasonable.
No I dont mean every single police officer Rolling Eyes  I've seen an estimate from police chiefs in the U.S. that around 3-4% of cops are racist. Realistically that number will never get to zero, if it really is 3-4% then that doesn't seem too bad. Certainly nowhere near as bad as its being made out to be.

Did you think Mr. Brooks bore much responsibility for his fate?
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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:15 pm

incontinentia wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
If, by 'entire police forces' you mean every person on the force, then clearly that isn't the case. When the Met was found to be institutionally racist 20 years ago, I don't think it was every single cop. What would be an acceptable level of racist police - 50%, 30%, 10%?

Rayshard Brooks - the policeman involved has been charged with felony murder - which doesn't seem unreasonable.
No I dont mean every single police officer Rolling Eyes  I've seen an estimate from police chiefs in the U.S. that around 3-4% of cops are racist. Realistically that number will never get to zero, if it really is 3-4% then that doesn't seem too bad. Certainly nowhere near as bad as its being made out to be.

Did you think Mr. Brooks bore much responsibility for his fate?

Yeah, and drunken women in short skirts bear some responsibility for being r@ped. Rolling Eyes

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:45 pm

Rayshard Brooks, did not deserve to be shot dead. He is in no way responsible for being murdered.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:58 pm

You don't think his behaviour was the main factor that led to the outcome of him being shot?
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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:00 pm

Nothing he did warranted being shot in the back and killed. Arrested, yep. Charged, probably. Shot dead, nope.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:18 pm

beninho wrote:Nothing he did warranted being shot in the back and killed. Arrested, yep. Charged, probably. Shot dead, nope.
I'm not saying that his shooting was deserved or warranted... but I'm pretty sure he'd be alive today had he co-operated with the police. Suspect behaviour is a major factor in these shootings.
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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:14 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.
I can do whatever ever I want as long as I feel strongly enough about doing it, good to know.
Yes, but there'll be consequences.
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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:17 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:I wasn't aware that they'd done a socio-economic survey of the white people on the marches, so I admit to being impressed that super_r can tell they are middle-class from their clothes and haircuts. Or perhaps he thinks lower and upper class white don't care about racism.

In any case, given that a) people on the marches lack common sense b) most people on the marches were white, it seems that white people are stupid.

Perhaps super's bile is mainly reserved for white people who want more social equality. Are they called 'libtards' in some quarters?

Polymaths can do that.
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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:56 pm

incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:Nothing he did warranted being shot in the back and killed. Arrested, yep. Charged, probably. Shot dead, nope.
I'm not saying that his shooting was deserved or warranted... but I'm pretty sure he'd be alive today had he co-operated with the police. Suspect behaviour is a major factor in these shootings.

Blaming the victim is pathetic. He was murdered - hence the charge of murder - and you're blaming him for getting murdered, rather than being outraged at a policeman shooting a person in the back, who at that point was unarmed. No wonder people are marching for justice.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:37 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.
I can do whatever ever I want as long as I feel strongly enough about doing it, good to know.
Yes, but there'll be consequences.

Not if I care strongly enough, it's a magic cure for anything.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:48 pm

BTW - Brooks co-operated for over 40 minutes before, according to the DA, it was a violation of department policy for Rolfe to begin handcuffing Brooks before telling him he was being arrested.
From wiki - According to one law-enforcement expert, "In many situations, officers should tell someone what is happening because you don't want the person to react in surprise and the officers to take that surprise as resistance."

So perhaps the 'major factor' was the police not doing their jobs correctly to ensure suspect co-operation (if they had acted lawfully, would he have resisted?) and then murdering him.

Rolfe has previously shot a suspect and not filed that fact in his report of the incident. Perhaps if justice has been done in that instance, Rolfe would not have even still been on the force to commit further crimes.

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Post by beninho Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:59 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.
Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.
I can do whatever ever I want as long as I feel strongly enough about doing it, good to know.
Yes, but there'll be consequences.

Not if I care strongly enough, it's a magic cure for anything.

Don't think that's quite right.

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Post by McLaren Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:10 pm

incontinentia wrote:
McLaren wrote:
incontinentia wrote:I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.


Inco

In this model what are the reasons for blacks being disproportionately poor?
Dont know Mac, i suppose the same reasons any demographic stays poor? Not aware of any evidence of inequality of opportunity.

Not sure that makes sense Inco. If black people are disproportionately poor there must be an effect which is only felt by them (or at least felt by them to a greater magnitude). So what do you think the factor is that causes more black people than would be expected based on proportion of the population to become poor?
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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 pm

The poverty breakdown in the UK is quite complicated; Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Black Africans are disproportionately affected whilst Indians and Caribbeans less so almost on a par with White British. With regards to that it has to be noted that Indian woman are more likely to be in full time work than Bangladeshi or Pakistani woman.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:19 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:Nothing he did warranted being shot in the back and killed. Arrested, yep. Charged, probably. Shot dead, nope.
I'm not saying that his shooting was deserved or warranted... but I'm pretty sure he'd be alive today had he co-operated with the police. Suspect behaviour is a major factor in these shootings.

Blaming the victim is pathetic. He was murdered - hence the charge of murder - and you're blaming him for getting murdered, rather than being outraged at a policeman shooting a person in the back, who at that point was unarmed. No wonder people are marching for justice.
I'm not really blaming the victim, I'm trying to tease out factors that caused a civilised conversation to turn into a fatal police shooting. I agree with you that the arresting officer should have explained that he was going to arrest Brooks before he tried to put the cuffs on, I thought that was unusual when I saw the video. Also, in a perfect world the cop wouldve shot Brooks in the legs or butt.. but he had to make a split second decision against a perp who had a weapon himself and who was being very hostile.

The whole thing has been politicised, hence the murder charge. The police know Rolfe acted according to his training, which is why they are pi$$ed and protesting via a blue flu.

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Post by incontinentia Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:29 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
So perhaps the 'major factor' was the police not doing their jobs correctly to ensure suspect co-operation (if they had acted lawfully, would he have resisted?) and then murdering him.
Oh come off it. The officer should have explained he was under arrest, but it was hardly a shock when he tried to cuff Brooks after failing a breathalyser. I cant believe you don't seem to have a problem with Brooks behaviour here Headscratch
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