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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by McLaren Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Navy

And what super has also missed is that the statues and TV shows are not really the main focus of the protests. They are easy news bites to bring up but the meat of the protesters argument is about equality for black people.

I also don't think super is correct that just because you support BLM you don't also worry about atrocities committed in other spheres of life. It is just that currently the focus is on racism towards black people.

As much as he hates America, Super would really fit into their libertarian ways.
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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:26 pm

Are there a lot of people in the lunatic fringe? Not sure - how many supporters does the BNP have?

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Post by McLaren Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:14 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Couldn't find a hands up smiley. but me.

I thought you were a  Liberal Mac?

I obviously misread the original post. Yes I am liberal. But I think that is pretty much the most basic level of my world view. If you are at all rational you start with basic liberal principles.
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Post by McLaren Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:18 pm

super_realist wrote:I would. He's just as intolerable, intolerant and myopic in his views as they are, just as dismissive of others opinions and just as vitriolic.
Revolting man.

I am liberal and dismissive of ridiculous opinions. Are you saying I should spend more time listening to climate change deniers or people who don't support basic human rights?

Given your background in internet atheism I am surprised you are so opposed to the dismissive tone adopted by Hitchins and Dawkins towards those that hold idiotic views?



As for Own Jones, his personality makes him pretty unlikable but what policies does he promote that you think are far left or lunatic fringe?
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Post by super_realist Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:28 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Are there a lot of people in the lunatic fringe? Not sure - how many supporters does the BNP have?

I've no interest what the BNP membership is, who cares? They are irrelevant organisation with no bearing on anyone's life, however the "lunatic fringe" on the other hand actually are having an influence in regards on society in regards to being afraid to challenge and eradicate viewpoints which differ from their own.

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Post by super_realist Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:30 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:I would. He's just as intolerable, intolerant and myopic in his views as they are, just as dismissive of others opinions and just as vitriolic.
Revolting man.

I am liberal and dismissive of ridiculous opinions. Are you saying I should spend more time listening to climate change deniers or people who don't support basic human rights?

Given your background in internet atheism I am surprised you are so opposed to the dismissive tone adopted by Hitchins and Dawkins towards those that hold idiotic views?



As for Own Jones, his personality makes him pretty unlikable but what policies does he promote that you think are far left or lunatic fringe?

I agree it is probably his horrible "it's hard being persecuted like me" whimpering pathetic attitude that irks me most about him, but I've seen him almost cry in an interview about something and he was so inept that he tore his microphone off and ran away.
Why does anyone employ bumholes like him and Lewis Goodall for their opinion?
He supports the Black Lives Matter political movement, Extinction Rebellion and Momentum so that's enough for me to disagree with him.

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Post by super_realist Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:40 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:I would. He's just as intolerable, intolerant and myopic in his views as they are, just as dismissive of others opinions and just as vitriolic.
Revolting man.

I am liberal and dismissive of ridiculous opinions. Are you saying I should spend more time listening to climate change deniers or people who don't support basic human rights?

Given your background in internet atheism I am surprised you are so opposed to the dismissive tone adopted by Hitchins and Dawkins towards those that hold idiotic views?



As for Own Jones, his personality makes him pretty unlikable but what policies does he promote that you think are far left or lunatic fringe?

You really do have the comprehension of a Nat Mac. Where have I ever said you should listen to Climate Change deniers or people against human rights? Not supporting Doomsday cults like Extinction Rebellion doesn't mean you deny climate change.

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Post by McLaren Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Then be specific. This thread is full of Owen jones is crazy (but no specifics) and a hazy notion of liberals dismissing views. As a liberal what views do you think I have dismissed that I shouldn't have?
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Post by super_realist Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:47 pm

I've no idea Mac, that's not what I am talking about.

I am saying that there is an arm of people, wrongly or rightly labelled "liberals" who are intolerant towards anyone who dissent from having the same point of view as them.

Whether or not you are part of that group was not even the question and I don't even care if you are or not as I'm not trying to prove if you are.

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Post by McLaren Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:02 pm

But again, be specific. What views are these "liberals" showing intolerance towards?

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Post by superflyweight Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:10 pm

super_realist wrote:I've no idea Mac, that's not what I am talking about.

I am saying that there is an arm of people, wrongly or rightly labelled "liberals" who are intolerant towards anyone who dissent from having the same point of view as them.

Whether or not you are part of that group was not even the question and I don't even care if you are or not as I'm not trying to prove if you are.

As opposed to you who wouldn't be labelled 'liberal' but is intolerant towards anyone who doesn't share your point of view?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:18 pm

super_realist wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Are there a lot of people in the lunatic fringe? Not sure - how many supporters does the BNP have?

I've no interest what the BNP membership is, who cares? They are irrelevant organisation with no bearing on anyone's life, however the "lunatic fringe" on the other hand actually are having an influence in regards on society in regards to being afraid to challenge and eradicate viewpoints which differ from their own.

I do think you are too quick to label anyone who has a viewpoint different from your own as being part of the 'lunatic fringe' or some other dismissive term. However, I can see the psychological comfort in doing so - we are all probably guilty of it to some extent, but most probably not to your extent.

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Post by beninho Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:53 pm

I'm still struggling on the comparison of a journalist against homophobic hate crime carry outers and mp murderers. It is quite baffling.

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Post by super_realist Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:13 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Are there a lot of people in the lunatic fringe? Not sure - how many supporters does the BNP have?

I've no interest what the BNP membership is, who cares? They are irrelevant organisation with no bearing on anyone's life, however the "lunatic fringe" on the other hand actually are having an influence in regards on society in regards to being afraid to challenge and eradicate viewpoints which differ from their own.

I do think you are too quick to label anyone who has a viewpoint different from your own as being part of the 'lunatic fringe' or some other dismissive term. However, I can see the psychological comfort in doing so - we are all probably guilty of it to some extent, but most probably not to your extent.

It wasn't me who labelled them the "lunatic fringe" it's the left seeking to distance themselves from it in a "no true Scotsman" type fashion.

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Post by super_realist Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:15 am

McLaren wrote:But again, be specific.  What views are these "liberals" showing intolerance towards?


Anyone who doesn't agree with the same as them. The people they have no platformed for example.
Now they have removed lyrics from the last night of the proms. I'm not a fan but that is just left wing woke lunacy.

Anyway Ben, we're not talking about right wing terrorists, we're talking about politics. Try and keep your comparisons in perspective.

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:16 am

Maybe I'm confused. You said you find left wing as detestable as right wing, and regurgitated your hatred of Owen Jones. It stated that I find edl types and right wing homophobe hate crime carry outers like the ones who attacked Jones as worse, you again stated you don't.

Again, im unsure why you think a journalist is the same as the sort who beat him up for his views and sexuality and the sort wbo killed an mp due to her views. Its all left and right and politics.

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:19 am

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/alice-cutter-former-miss-hitler-pageant-entrant-and-her-ex-partner-jailed-for-belonging-to-banned-far-right-group-12003405

What about these right wingers are they just as detestable as owen jones?

Or this one

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/17/neo-nazi-jack-renshaw-who-planned-to-labour-mp-jailed-for-life

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:22 am

super_realist wrote:Lots of words have different meanings and I think the term as an insult is used as short hand and all encompassing for the hard left Corbyn/Owen Jones type of plank who are just as detestable as those on the far right.

Just trying to base it on this statement. See where the comparison between a journalist and far right stands up for you.

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Post by super_realist Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:05 am

Only if you are incapable of weighing up things of equal magnitude. I don't see Owen Jones as comparable to the EDL though, that's the point. I'd say the EDL were further right than Owen Jones is left.

If I compare the detestable Jones as being as bad as the far right, I would expect you to be able to compare him to someone of equal repulsion, not leap to the furthest right person you could find.  So, in terms of that I would compare Owen Jones to someone like Katy Hopkins rather than someone like someone planning to take the life of an MP or an extremist group like EDL.

If you're going to bring up something as ridiculous as far right terrorist groups then being a rational person the polar opposite would be something like Stalin or Pol Pot, but that would be absurd wouldn't it?

By deduction if we're talking about racism for example, we see that on both sides of the political divide, and we don't have to jump to Hitler to concede a point do we?

Owen Jones represents at least some of the far left, but he doesn't define it, so there's likely to be people like Maxine Peake for example who are more left, more sensationalist, more reactionary and more militant.
When I say the far left is as bad as the far right (in political terms) it doesn't mean it stops at Owen Jones as being the zenith of the far left does it?

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Post by super_realist Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:08 am

Sterling and Macguire. What is it with England footballers consistently embarrassing themselves?

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:13 am

super_realist wrote:Only if you are incapable of weighing up things of equal magnitude. I don't see Owen Jones as comparable to the EDL though, that's the point. I'd say the EDL were further right than Owen Jones is left.

If I compare the detestable Jones as being as bad as the far right, I would expect you to be able to compare him to someone of equal repulsion, not leap to the furthest right person you could find.  So, in terms of that I would compare Owen Jones to someone like Katy Hopkins rather than someone like someone planning to take the life of an MP or an extremist group like EDL.

If you're going to bring up something as ridiculous as far right terrorist groups then being a rational person the polar opposite would be something like Stalin or Pol Pot, but that would be absurd wouldn't it?

By deduction if we're talking about racism for example, we see that on both sides of the political divide, and we don't have to jump to Hitler to concede a point do we?

Owen Jones represents at least some of the far left, but he doesn't define it, so there's likely to be people like Maxine Peake for example who are more left, more sensationalist, more reactionary and more militant.
When I say the far left is as bad as the far right (in political terms) it doesn't mean it stops at Owen Jones as being the zenith of the far left does it?

So, your initial post saying owen jones type plank being as detestable as those on the far right was badly worded, and not what you meant to say?

But why did you say your saw him as the same as the edl previously?


Last edited by beninho on Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:14 am

super_realist wrote:Sterling and Macguire. What is it with England footballers consistently embarrassing themselves?
Sterling?

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:30 am

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Only if you are incapable of weighing up things of equal magnitude. I don't see Owen Jones as comparable to the EDL though, that's the point. I'd say the EDL were further right than Owen Jones is left.

If I compare the detestable Jones as being as bad as the far right, I would expect you to be able to compare him to someone of equal repulsion, not leap to the furthest right person you could find.  So, in terms of that I would compare Owen Jones to someone like Katy Hopkins rather than someone like someone planning to take the life of an MP or an extremist group like EDL.

If you're going to bring up something as ridiculous as far right terrorist groups then being a rational person the polar opposite would be something like Stalin or Pol Pot, but that would be absurd wouldn't it?

By deduction if we're talking about racism for example, we see that on both sides of the political divide, and we don't have to jump to Hitler to concede a point do we?

Owen Jones represents at least some of the far left, but he doesn't define it, so there's likely to be people like Maxine Peake for example who are more left, more sensationalist, more reactionary and more militant.
When I say the far left is as bad as the far right (in political terms) it doesn't mean it stops at Owen Jones as being the zenith of the far left does it?

So, your initial post saying owen jones type plank being as detestable as those on the far right was badly worded, and not what you meant to say?

But why did you say your saw him as the same as the edl previously?

Can you quote where this was said because I must have overlooked a post?

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:35 am

beninho wrote:I cant say I'm a big fan of Owen Jones but I would definitely not put him below farage or Tommy Robinson or the edl lot n the detestable stakes. I wouldn't put him on a par with them.

Oqen Jones was beaten up by right wing homophobes, in my view, I wouldn't put him on the same level as them.

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:36 am

super_realist wrote:I would. He's just as intolerable, intolerant and myopic in his views as they are, just as dismissive of others opinions and just as vitriolic.
Revolting man.

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:38 am

hope the above helps. He said he puts owen jones on the same level as the edl. I guess you missed the post.

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Post by I'm never wrong Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:45 am

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Sterling and Macguire. What is it with England footballers consistently embarrassing themselves?
Sterling?
I think super is referring to the fact that he attended Usain Bolt's birthday party in Jamaica Story Here

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Post by super_realist Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:55 am

beninho wrote:hope the above helps.  He said he puts owen jones on the same level as the edl. I guess you missed the post.

I didn't say that at all. Why do you always try so hard to conflate things that were never actually said.
It would be like me claiming that you said that Farage was as bad as Stalin. Clearly a ridiculous comparison.

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Post by McLaren Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:45 am

super_realist wrote:Lots of words have different meanings and I think the term as an insult is used as short hand and all encompassing for the hard left Corbyn/Owen Jones type of plank who are just as detestable as those on the far right.

Super is now claiming that from the above, where he says corbyn/jones are as bad as the far right, we should know that he didn't actually mean the far right. He meant just short of the far right.


But if we then examine the next exchange we can see that whatever the far right means to super it includes homophobes. Because he is happy to say that Jones and the men that beat him are on a par.

beninho wrote:I cant say I'm a big fan of Owen Jones but I would definitely not put him below farage or Tommy Robinson or the edl lot n the detestable stakes. I wouldn't put him on a par with them.

Oqen Jones was beaten up by right wing homophobes, in my view, I wouldn't put him on the same level as them.

And then the very next post from super

super_realist wrote:I would. He's just as intolerable, intolerant and myopic in his views as they are, just as dismissive of others opinions and just as vitriolic.
Revolting man.


Ben says he wouldn't put Jones on the same level as the homophobes that beat him up or Farage/robinson, and then super clearly responds directly after with "I would". There is no doubt he was saying Jones and his attackers are as bad as each other.

I am not sure why super is now trying to wriggle out of this. Either he was on the wind up yesterday and doesn't think Jones is as bad as his attackers or he is now ashamed of those comments and is trying to backtrack?
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:57 am

beninho wrote:hope the above helps.  He said he puts owen jones on the same level as the edl. I guess you missed the post.

That's fair play Ben, seems pretty clear cut. Thank you.

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Post by beninho Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:34 pm

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:hope the above helps.  He said he puts owen jones on the same level as the edl. I guess you missed the post.

I didn't say that at all. Why do you always try so hard to conflate things that were never actually said.
It would be like me claiming that you said that Farage was as bad as Stalin. Clearly a ridiculous comparison.

Well, I've quoted your own words. And its all pretty clear. Maybe, you were just mistaken. Xx

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Post by super_realist Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 am

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:hope the above helps.  He said he puts owen jones on the same level as the edl. I guess you missed the post.

I didn't say that at all. Why do you always try so hard to conflate things that were never actually said.
It would be like me claiming that you said that Farage was as bad as Stalin. Clearly a ridiculous comparison.

Well, I've quoted your own words. And its all pretty clear. Maybe, you were just mistaken. Xx

Or maybe you're not clever enough to read between the lines and take everything literally.
You also didn't quote my own words. I didn't say Owen Jones was as bad as the EDL.
I said the far left was as bad as the far right. Clearly I was talking about the far right of British politics, not extremist groups.

I'm not surprised that you and Mac aren't bright enough to work this out for yourself

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Post by beninho Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:54 am

Sweetie pie, you are just embarrassing yourself now. Everyone can see what you wrote. Probably not the right person to call people not bright in this instance.


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Post by super_realist Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:05 am

Well in that case then I'll just do what Mac does when he makes an error and say I misread your post.

Clearly as detestable as Owen Jones is I don't think he's as bad as the EDL, but I do think the far left of politics is every bit as intolerable and intolerant as those on the far  right (of mainstream, non extremist politics just in case you are still confused). I don't see Jones as being any worse than Farage or Katie Hopkins which still makes him someone not worthy of listening to or column inches. Clearly he's not on the EDL level, but he's still an intolerant, self persecuted pr1ck who can't stand anyone who doesn't believe the same as him.

You should look up hyperbole though in future as you seem to want to take everything literally. I'm sure you don't take Owen Jones  very own statement that those crossing the channel are "the most desperate people in the world" as being literally true. Clearly that's not a factual statement and is complete rubbish. You could try realising that people tend most often  speak in a figurative manner, not  always literally.

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Post by beninho Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:21 am

Backtracking. At least people have been able to read your opinions when you were called out on them.

I will ask though, do you not see that people such as Farage, Hopkins and Robinson influence the far right movements you think are as bad as a journalist. You cant just add your own end to right wing views.


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Post by super_realist Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:52 am

Yes, You're right, something of a backtrack. I didn't mean to say that Jones was as bad as the EDL, clearly he isn't, but if we keep to politics and not extremism then yes, he's as bad as the far right (of mainstream politics) is.  I also clearly stated that I didn't think Jones defined the degree to how far the left is, I said he was simply part of the far left. There is of course a spectrum on which he fits somewhere.
Jones is certainly more than just a "journalist" (if he is actually a  genuine journalist, seems anyone can call themselves that these days). I'm pretty sure he would classify himself as an activist in addition.


Let's leave Robinson and the EDL out of it. I don't see him as someone as worth talking about and not really pertinent to what I'm talking about. I'm sure we can agree they are detestable.

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Post by superflyweight Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:26 am

Stretching it somewhat to say that Hopkins isn't an extremist (or at least spouts extremist views for attention and money).  

Jones saying that people going to extreme lengths to cross the channel deserve to be welcomed is not the equivaelent counterpoint to Hopkins saying she would use gunships to stop them and saying "show me pictures of coffins, show me bodies floating in the water, play violins and show me skinny people looking sad".  

Jones is a leftwing journalist with whom I disagree with a lot.  Hopkins is (or is pretending to be) a f*ckwitted and racist @rsehole.

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Post by beninho Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:36 am

Is Owen Jones even far left? The people who beat him up were described as far right. It takes us back to the initial points. If comparing far right and far left as the same you have to accept them as tge same thing.

And Hopkins is horrible, I really can't see any comparison between her and Jones or othere left wing journalists.

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Post by superflyweight Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:46 am

I wouldn't say that Jones is far left. He's probably edging towards far left in the context of the Labour Party, but the Labour Party itself is a centrist party.

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Post by beninho Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:02 am

Land of hope and glory. A perfect way to showcase how the media rile up issues when none exist.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:12 am

The far left is often dependent on where an individual themselves is on the political spectrum, for example Owen Jones may be seen as far left to someone who is centre right but to a centrist will be seen as merely left wing, personally have him down as part of the hard left.

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Post by beninho Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:23 am

Soul Requiem wrote:The far left is often dependent on where an individual themselves is on the political spectrum, for example Owen Jones may be seen as far left to someone who is centre right but to a centrist will be seen as merely left wing, personally have him down as part of the hard left.

I have him as left wing. Though is hard left not the same as far left because I dont have him as far left. I get tge views based on your own spectrum though. Which is why I hare labour supporters calling Starmer and others right wing. Left of centre is not right wing.

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