PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020

by GPB Mon 03 Aug 2020, 1:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

PGATour Running Commentary- Aug 2020

1. Last week: Justin Thomas overcame a 4 shot deficit to win the WGC-FEDEX St Jude by three shots over a four players of Tom Lewis, Daniel Berger, Phil Mickelson and Brooks Koepka Richie Werenski won the Barracuda event, by one point over Troy Merritt.

2. After he won the Memorial, Jon Rahm took the #1 OWGR ranking from Rory, and now after winning the FEDEX, Justin Thomas took the #1 spot.

3. This week is the PGA Championship, with most of the OWGR Top 100 players in the field. The tournament venue is at Harding Park, which has hosted two WGC tournaments in the last 20 years. Here are some finishes by players in this years field: Woods (1), Garcia (3), Stenson (3), GMac (6), Furyk (15)Poulter (18), Mickelson (29), Scott (29), ZJohnson (43), The Match play was played at Harding Park in 2015, won by Rory, beating Woodland in finals. Players advancing to the Round of 16, include Willett, Furyk, Casey, Oosty, Fleetwood, Fowler, Hideki, and Leishman.

4. Only two more tournaments to qualify for the FEDEX playoffs, some notable players that are currently inside the Top 125, but probably have not clinched a spot in the Northern Trust (Tom Lewis (#117), Russell Knox (#120, Paul Casey (#121), Charl Schwartzel (#123). Some players just barely outside the Top 125 include Nick Watney, Zach Johnson, Matt Wallace, Shane Lowry, RCB, Sergio, and Justin Rose. Some players that need a big week to get inside the Top 125 include Willett, Dufner, Power, Walker, Stenson

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 9:00 am

robopz wrote:Super... internal OB isn't the answer. Might as well add windmills and clown mouths if that's the approach.

Bottom line is length really is the problem. Golf courses are designed to have difficulty for the tee shot at the turning points in the fairway, and then again for the approaches to the green. The problem with length overwhelming golf courses is too many players are simply blowing it over the turning point difficulty. so as it is now the only players who are having to deal with those difficult elements are the mid to short length players. There's nothing wrong with length being an advantage, but since the longer hitters are in effect playing an easier course, it's become a disproportionate over advantage.

The cause of this is not just the ball, but IMO the answer is in controlling the ball. Reduce the distance it will fly to bring those turning point difficulties back into play for everybody and it more equals the playing field, and brings back more variety of shot making into the game.

Tennis had a similar problem. As athlete's and rackets got better it became a boring serve game (you mentioned Sampras). So their answer was they slowed down the ball. I don't know why everybody freaks out at the prospect of golf doing the same thing. It's really not complicated.

What do you mean "turning point of the fairway"? I don't quite get what you mean by that. Most golf holes are effectively straight.

The ball isn't the problem. Developments in the ball in the last 20 years have been nothing in comparison with an increase in the number of golfers with huge swing speed/smash factor/ball speed.

I would also say that increased distance is an advantage which is restricted mostly to the professional, your average golfer still doesn't have sufficient skills to get it out of the rough any better so they would still be better finding fairways rather than searching for distance (unless you are low cat one I would say)

by pedro Mon 28 Sep 2020, 9:19 am

I understand the "turning point" as the landing area envisioned by the designer. I.e. the dogleg or between fw bunkers.

Correct that many US parkland courses are straight up and down. Firestone being the obvious boring example. IMO a real golf hole should have a dogleg or some other strategic features around the landing area, forcing the player to shape the ball or otherwise use his brain.

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 10:32 am

pedro wrote:I understand the "turning point" as the landing area envisioned by the designer. I.e. the dogleg or between fw bunkers.

Correct that many US parkland courses are straight up and down. Firestone being the obvious boring example. IMO a real golf hole should have a dogleg or some other strategic features around the landing area, forcing the player to shape the ball or otherwise use his brain.

Not just many US Parkland courses, most holes on every course are pretty straight and don't really require a shot shape at all other than it being fine as long as it falls within a certain width.
I'm thinking about all the courses I play on a regular basis and very few deviate from being effectively straight. Extreme doglegs are pretty rare. Having said that I wish there were more of them.
Heathland courses tend to make better use of them.

by robopz Mon 28 Sep 2020, 1:14 pm

pedro wrote:I understand the "turning point" as the landing area envisioned by the designer. I.e. the dogleg or between fw bunkers.

Correct that many US parkland courses are straight up and down. Firestone being the obvious boring example. IMO a real golf hole should have a dogleg or some other strategic features around the landing area, forcing the player to shape the ball or otherwise use his brain.

Correct... The turning point of a golf hole is the area intended to accept the tee shot. Sometimes the hole actually turns like a dog leg, many times it can be straight and defined by bunkers right, left or both or other difficulties. Below is an aerial of Winged Foot #4. A relatively straight hole. The turning point and it's difficulties fairly well illustrated. When everybody has to deal with those turning point difficulties it's a fair hole. But when big hitters can easily blow it over the bunker left (and others can't) its a disproportionate advantage for them. See the 2nd image which was Bryson's line in round 1 leaving him 111 yds in.

PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020 - Page 13 Screen13

PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020 - Page 13 Screen15

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 1:16 pm

For every hole like that though there are dozens without those "turning points" where there simply isn't a corner to cut.

by robopz Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:05 pm

super_realist wrote:For every hole like that though there are dozens without those "turning points" where there simply isn't a corner to cut.

You still don't seem to understand. A turning point does NOT necessarily mean the hole turns. For example a hole can be straight, but a creek or lake all the way down the left can force a player to play to the right to avoid the hazard. That in effect creates a turning point

And someone brought up Firestone... YES... a lot of "straight" holes there. But this image of 17 illustrates the "turning point". Fairly straight hole designed to layup short before the bunker complex or take a risk of going longer and hitting in the middle of it. As designed, it requires a decision and a more accurate shot the more aggressive you choose to be. But it's not making a physical "turn" per se". But when some can simply "blow it over" all that (which was NOT the design intent), it greatly simplifies the hole for those that can, while those who can't are at a more significant disadvantage because they are still dealing with the turning point difficulties.

PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020 - Page 13 17-fir10

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:17 pm

robopz wrote:
super_realist wrote:For every hole like that though there are dozens without those "turning points" where there simply isn't a corner to cut.
You still don't seem to understand. A turning point does NOT necessarily mean the hole turns. For example a hole can be straight, but a creek or lake all the way down the left can force a player to play to the right to avoid the hazard. That in effect creates a turning point

And someone brought up Firestone... YES... a lot of "straight" holes there. But this image of 17 illustrates the "turning point". Fairly straight hole designed to layup short before the bunker complex or take a risk of going longer and hitting in the middle of it. As designed, it requires a decision and a more accurate shot the more aggressive you choose to be. But it's not making a physical "turn" per se". But when some can simply "blow it over" all that (which was NOT the design intent), it greatly simplifies the hole for those that can, while those who can't are at a more significant disadvantage because they are still dealing with the turning point difficulties.

Nor do you. The vast majority of golf courses in this country are over 100 years old. Throughout time every single one of those courses has been subject to golfers getting longer and longer with every decade. There hasn't suddenly been some tipping point which has miraculously made these courses obsolete.

People with every passing decade play a course differently, that's not new, the question is when did it get so boring? Last week?

by GPB Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:29 pm

super_realist wrote:
Christ, just shows how many stupid "sports" Americans can invent. I thought Long Driving was bad enough, now you tell me they have Professional Putters.

Maybe as many as Scotland can

http://www.beachcottageinverness.co.uk/unusual-scottish-games

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:35 pm

GPB wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Christ, just shows how many stupid "sports" Americans can invent. I thought Long Driving was bad enough, now you tell me they have Professional Putters.

Maybe as many as Scotland can

http://www.beachcottageinverness.co.uk/unusual-scottish-games

The difference is that no one in Scotland would ever do this for anything but fun and wouldn't boast about knowing a professional bog footballer

by GPB Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:37 pm

super_realist wrote: The vast majority of golf courses in this country are over 100 years old.

How jingoistic!

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:40 pm

GPB wrote:
super_realist wrote: The vast majority of golf courses in this country are over 100 years old.

How jingoistic!

Stick to the Hall of Fame GPB.

by GPB Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:41 pm

super_realist wrote:

The difference is that no one in Scotland would ever do this for anything but fun and wouldn't boast about knowing a professional bog footballer

Brits have a love for amateur competitions, but there’s nothing amateur about the following Scottish games that will surely give you a new-found respect for such competitions. These not only bring fun and enjoyment to its spectators, but show you skill and athleticism that can parallel any serious sport.

by robopz Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:43 pm

Lucky for you, you happen to live in a country with lots of courses 100 or more years old. But guess what, The other 99% of the world's 38,000 golf courses built after that don't have that luxury, nor did they have the benefit of being on links land like you have.

But please please don't tell me that many of those great courses in your country or the Open Rota haven't been obsoleted or tremendously altered or tricked up from their originals. (Prestwick, Musselburgh, Cinque Ports). Heck, ToC now has four or five championship tees not even on the golf course. And now a lot of the bunkers are revetted abominations from what they used to be. I believe you yourself have said TOC is a 58 or 59 waiting to happen if they get a calm dry day.

PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020 - Page 13 Old_ph10

PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020 - Page 13 220-2010

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 2:45 pm

robopz wrote:Lucky for you, you happen to live in a country with lots of courses 100 or more years old. But guess what, The other 99% of the world's 38,000 golf courses built after that don't have that luxury, nor did they have the benefit of being on links land like you have.

But please please don't tell me that many of those great courses in your country or the Open Rota haven't been obsoleted or tremendously altered or tricked up from their originals. (Prestwick, Musselburgh, Cinque Ports). Heck, ToC now has four or five championship tees not even on the golf course. And now a lot of the bunkers are revetted abominations from what they used to be. I believe you yourself have said TOC is a 58 or 59 waiting to happen if they get a calm dry day.

Of course courses have become gradually more obsolete, that's not in question. The point is that it hasn't suddenly happened with Fat Bryson.

by robopz Mon 28 Sep 2020, 3:19 pm

Ummm Super.... This isn't a Bryson debate for me, never has been. Bryson just happens to be the most notable recent poster child that illustrates what's happening.

To me the topic is "what we want golf to be?" I don't want the one dimensional bomb & gouge to be the future of the pro game. I want to see a variety of shot making and a variety of the types of players who can remain competitive. I want to see risk reward more evenly distributed among different types of players. I want to see accuracy off the tee matter more that does now.

To me the solution is simple. Golf course design already meets the objectives I would like to see met. But ONLY if the players are regulated in such a way that they can't overwhelm the golf courses with brute force. Right now the solution is 100% backwards IMO. people seem to think we need to keep modifying, changing & tricking up the golf courses to answer that brute force. IMO the answer is to regulate the equipment so brute Force can't overwhelm the golf course to begin with and then the problem is solved. Tennis does it by regulating their ball. WHY can't golf?

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 4:02 pm

To be consistent the game in America especially has been boring for a very long time, whether that's the benign weather, unimaginative set ups, boring courses, soft greens, lack of rough or players hitting it further is up for debate. It's a combination of all of them probably.

by robopz Mon 28 Sep 2020, 5:00 pm

super_realist wrote:To be consistent the game in America especially has been boring for a very long time, whether that's the benign weather, unimaginative set ups, boring courses, soft greens, lack of rough or players hitting it further is up for debate. It's a combination of all of them probably.

{{{Sighs as they shoot 18-20 under at another Open Championshp}}}

by super_realist Mon 28 Sep 2020, 5:02 pm

robopz wrote:
super_realist wrote:To be consistent the game in America especially has been boring for a very long time, whether that's the benign weather, unimaginative set ups, boring courses, soft greens, lack of rough or players hitting it further is up for debate. It's a combination of all of them probably.
{{{Sighs as they shoot 18-20 under at another Open Championshp}}}

I've long said The Open is rubbish Robo, but at the very least it's a different type of golf.

by McLaren Mon 28 Sep 2020, 6:11 pm

Super

Have you ever thought you just don't like watching pro golf? It might be better just to accept that no set up really matters in terms of your likelihood of watching and enjoying the event.

by GPB Tue 29 Sep 2020, 2:49 am

Perhaps Super can tell what he wants to see in golf course design.

He is quite adept at telling us what he doesn't want to see.

by super_realist Tue 29 Sep 2020, 6:32 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Have you ever thought you just don't like watching pro golf? It might be better just to accept that no set up really matters in terms of your likelihood of watching and enjoying the event.

I don't really enjoy watching it that much but when I do I want to see drama, not people stopping a ball in a sixpence and facing no trouble.

by McLaren Tue 29 Sep 2020, 11:47 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Have you ever thought you just don't like watching pro golf? It might be better just to accept that no set up really matters in terms of your likelihood of watching and enjoying the event.

I don't really enjoy watching it that much but when I do I want to see drama, not people stopping a ball in a sixpence and facing no trouble.

Then watch the Tartan tour. Plenty of people struggling out there.

by GPB Tue 29 Sep 2020, 3:24 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Have you ever thought you just don't like watching pro golf? It might be better just to accept that no set up really matters in terms of your likelihood of watching and enjoying the event.

I don't really enjoy watching it that much but when I do I want to see drama, not people stopping a ball in a sixpence and facing no trouble.

You would have enjoyed watching the Presidents Cup at Royal Melbourne then.

It was full of drama on what is a Top 5 Golf Course IMO.

But then again, your jingoistic pre-conceptions would never let you admit to enjoying it.

by McLaren Tue 29 Sep 2020, 4:05 pm

I am not sure Super would have enjoyed the praise Big Cat received for the way he intelligently managed his way around the course.

by super_realist Thu 01 Oct 2020, 6:29 am

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Have you ever thought you just don't like watching pro golf? It might be better just to accept that no set up really matters in terms of your likelihood of watching and enjoying the event.

I don't really enjoy watching it that much but when I do I want to see drama, not people stopping a ball in a sixpence and facing no trouble.

Then watch the Tartan tour. Plenty of people struggling out there.

I didn't say I enjoy watching people struggle, I just don't enjoy watching boring golf.

by super_realist Thu 01 Oct 2020, 6:31 am

GPB wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Have you ever thought you just don't like watching pro golf? It might be better just to accept that no set up really matters in terms of your likelihood of watching and enjoying the event.

I don't really enjoy watching it that much but when I do I want to see drama, not people stopping a ball in a sixpence and facing no trouble.

You would have enjoyed watching the Presidents Cup at Royal Melbourne then.

It was full of drama on what is a Top 5 Golf Course IMO.

But then again, your jingoistic pre-conceptions would never let you admit to enjoying it.

I'll add irony to the list of things you don't understand like "strawman" and "libel". To call me jingoistic when you're the biggest flag waving person on this board is the very definition of jingoism and a flagrant example of irony.

by McLaren Thu 01 Oct 2020, 12:19 pm

Super

You are quite patriotic towards Britain, your totally dedication to the union is a type of nationalism/jingoism.

by super_realist Thu 01 Oct 2020, 12:35 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

You are quite patriotic towards Britain, your totally dedication to the union is a type of nationalism/jingoism.

Not at all Mac, I just think that America deserves quite a bit of criticism that it doesn't get, especially from Americans. Whilst I also wanted to point out GPB's blatant hypocrisy.

by GPB Thu 01 Oct 2020, 3:25 pm

Wow. That is indeed rich.

by pedro Thu 01 Oct 2020, 11:03 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

You are quite patriotic towards Britain, your totally dedication to the union is a type of nationalism/jingoism.

Well, I’m not surprised someone living in Scotland would have an opinion about independence.

by pedro Mon 05 Oct 2020, 9:04 am

So Sergio has now also become a 3 decades man. 4 decades if you include the ET.

by McLaren Mon 05 Oct 2020, 9:53 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

You are quite patriotic towards Britain, your totally dedication to the union is a type of nationalism/jingoism.

Not at all Mac, I just think that America deserves quite a bit of criticism that it doesn't get, especially from Americans. Whilst I also wanted to point out GPB's blatant hypocrisy.

You can't just say not at all and expect this to go away. You are as pro union as the frothing at the mouth SNP types are Scottish indy. Neither side is reasonably because you base decisions on pride for a nation rather than evidence about what would make the most prosperous country to live in.

by super_realist Mon 05 Oct 2020, 10:22 am

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

You are quite patriotic towards Britain, your totally dedication to the union is a type of nationalism/jingoism.

Not at all Mac, I just think that America deserves quite a bit of criticism that it doesn't get, especially from Americans. Whilst I also wanted to point out GPB's blatant hypocrisy.

You can't just say not at all and expect this to go away. You are as pro union as the frothing at the mouth SNP types are Scottish indy. Neither side is reasonably because you base decisions on pride for a nation rather than evidence about what would make the most prosperous country to live in.

How am I Mac? I've been very clear that I'm against independence because none of the indy supporters have put forward a good financial reason for it.
Can you give an example of where I've been frothing at the mouth? No, just like everything else you accuse me of.

by McLaren Mon 05 Oct 2020, 10:39 am

Super

You are like those rangers fans with union jacks flying in their front gardens.

by pedro Mon 05 Oct 2020, 10:53 am

Mac, I think you should be happy all decisions aren't taken based on "evidence about what would make the most prosperous country to live in".

by pedro Mon 05 Oct 2020, 10:54 am

McLaren wrote:Super

You are like those rangers fans with union jacks flying in their front gardens.

I think super is a Villa fan now.

by super_realist Mon 05 Oct 2020, 10:55 am

McLaren wrote:Super

You are like those rangers fans with union jacks flying in their front gardens.

You've woken up in a cantankerous mood today Mac. I'm no more nationalistic than you are. I've often made the point that I'm not nationalistic. I'm pro union, but that doesn't make me nationalistic.

by McLaren Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:03 am

It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

by super_realist Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:27 am

McLaren wrote:It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

Don't worry Mac, an Asian won on the European tour.

by pedro Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:51 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

Don't worry Mac, an Asian won on the European tour.

Thought he was from Italian television.

by McLaren Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:54 am

I thought he was English.

by super_realist Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:56 am

McLaren wrote:I thought he was English.

He is, but his ethnicity is Asian.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 05 Oct 2020, 12:15 pm

McLaren wrote:It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

by Shotrock Mon 05 Oct 2020, 1:52 pm

Good point Mac. And if we've learned anything this weekend it's that we all should try putting with our eyes closed as peabrain says he does 75% of the time.

Maybe that's what sunk Tommy Fleetwood in Scotland?

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 05 Oct 2020, 4:36 pm

Where did I put that 'child' emoji?

by GPB Tue 06 Oct 2020, 12:00 am

Sergio winning Sanderson Farms means that he has secured a source for the entree when he invites Tiger over for some Fried Chicken.

by McLaren Tue 06 Oct 2020, 12:05 pm

GPB wrote:Sergio winning Sanderson Farms means that he has secured a source for the entree when he invites Tiger over for some Fried Chicken.

Will Fuzzy Zoeller be there as well?

by JAS Tue 06 Oct 2020, 4:03 pm

McLaren wrote:It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

What evidence do you have that his brain may be the size of a pea?

by McLaren Tue 06 Oct 2020, 6:07 pm

JAS wrote:
McLaren wrote:It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

What evidence do you have that his brain may be the size of a pea?

Are you kidding? If not then I direct you to GPB's post above where he alluded to it.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 07 Oct 2020, 3:28 pm

JAS wrote:
McLaren wrote:It is never good to wake up to the news that pea brain has won.

What evidence do you have that his brain may be the size of a pea?

Ignore him, JAS. It's just the child in him.

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