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England: 8 Nations

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:50 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Let's not forget the age old tradition of the barbarians picking the player the Internet is not outraged missed out on the extended englands third team squad

Richard Wigglesworth has been called up by the Barbarians - so will be good to see a young contender for the No9 spot playing against England :D

Ho ho. But given the restrictions on the BaaBaas - as I understand it they can't pick currently contracted Premiership players because everyone who's not with England or in a final is straight into pre-season - it was always going to be a last hurrah for departing players.
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Post by king_carlos on Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So do you pick a full strength England v barbarians in prep for the Italy game....or a mixed side, with lots of subs.

Can't be full strength as the prem final is the day before.

Though the back row can still be full strength Run
I reckon that it will be used as a dress rehearsal for the Italy game.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ewels 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Daly

16.Singleton 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Ribbans 20.Wilson 21.Heinz 22.Marchant 23.Cokanasiga

That's what I think Jones will go with. Personally I'd have Thacker and Painter on the bench. Moon starting ahead of Ewels as well.

LCD and Launchbury are pretty much guaranteed to come into the 23 against Italy. Slade and Nowell may well come in as well. Potentially Jonny Hill on the bench.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:58 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:

EJ won't pick anyone who is not a club regular and putting in high energy performances

The Dombrant situation last year could argue the exact opposite, guys who had been injured/hardly played got in ahead of him despite the entire internet believing he had reinvented sliced bread.  

Eddie was pretty clear about why he hadn't picked Dombrandt, though: his work rate wasn't up to the levels Eddie demands. Not surprising given his university heritage, but he clearly went away and worked hard on it, because before lockdown he was at a point where he could make three successive tackles and has stepped it up again since then. If that's reached Eddie's bar, then he's worth a look because he offers options that none of the other candidates at 8 do, and against an international defence that is well worth having.

Eddie has tended not to be all that experimental with his sides - generally he seems prepared to make bold selections, but only when his established players are unavailable. So I'd expect with 10 days to go before the first game we will see a squad that will probably have a lot of familiar faces in the starting XV with more variety on the bench, but given the long run of games I'd expect him to use quite a lot more players over the course of the series.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:05 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:

EJ won't pick anyone who is not a club regular and putting in high energy performances

The Dombrant situation last year could argue the exact opposite, guys who had been injured/hardly played got in ahead of him despite the entire internet believing he had reinvented sliced bread.  

Eddie was pretty clear about why he hadn't picked Dombrandt, though: his work rate wasn't up to the levels Eddie demands. Not surprising given his university heritage, but he clearly went away and worked hard on it, because before lockdown he was at a point where he could make three successive tackles and has stepped it up again since then. If that's reached Eddie's bar, then he's worth a look because he offers options that none of the other candidates at 8 do, and against an international defence that is well worth having.

Eddie has tended not to be all that experimental with his sides - generally he seems prepared to make bold selections, but only when his established players are unavailable. So I'd expect with 10 days to go before the first game we will see a squad that will probably have a lot of familiar faces in the starting XV with more variety on the bench, but given the long run of games I'd expect him to use quite a lot more players over the course of the series.

I'd really like to see Dombrandt and Launchbury in the same side. Both have good offloading ability and run strong support lines. Different strengths to Billy and Kruis but could definitely add to the attack particularly attacking around the fringes.

Dombrandt always runs great lines in attack. He so often finds the arm of the defender which allows him to make a lot of line breaks and offloads. Whether the strongest international defences would nullify that is an interesting question but one we will only find the answer to by giving him a run. Similar with Simmonds really.

The England defence relies so much on line speed and players getting back to their feet and in the line quickly that if Dombrandt (or Hill, or Willis, etc) can't keep up then you stick out very quickly. When Mako has been picked short of match fitness being slow working round the corner at rucks has stuck out like a sore thumb. That from a player who at full fitness is exceptional for his work rate in defence. Earl on the otherhand stood out on his debut from the bench for immediately looking at home in that system.

England's kicking game means they play a lot of phases without the ball and make a lot of tackles. It leaves nowhere to hide.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:19 pm

lostinwales wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Indeed. We only have vunipola Dombrandt Simmonds mercer curry and Hughes. Morgan as well if you want to include him. Never sure how many options are considered well stocked though.

*sigh I hate replying to these posts...

Hughes and Morgan both had potential back in the day.

So why are you even talking about them? When you say potential, you mean Nathan Hughes plays well in the Prem. He was pants in an England shirt. Maybe he needed more time but the nature of English rugby is there's so much depth that players don't get the time they would for Wales, Scotland, and Ireland if they don't perform well. Morgan was decent, but not top class. Denying that is embarrassing - it's like you've learned nothing from Eddie Jones being in charge. Neither are serious 8 options. Hughes could come back in at a push but he'd be a weak link. Obviously. Morgan's too old, too broken, and I don't think he's ever been picked by EJ either.


Why? because you mentioned them first. picard

No I didn't. I was clearly responding to 7.5. Come on, try reading. Your goading is pathetic, you clearly have an issue with me that has nothing to do with what's being discussed.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:25 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:That's a pretty 'jazzy' interpretation!

When Hughes was proven to be pants, other 8s like Simmonds were given a go because England have the luxury of a huge player pool. When he wasn't up to the grade/injured, someone else - Wilson - was given a go. Still, none of them were up to EJ's standards and so Curry started at 8 most recently. It's unlikely any of those will be given many more caps although Simmonds will probably get a call up at some point, if only like the Armand call up to quell the media pressure to give him another go. It seems much more likely that given their huge depth at flank but lack of test quality at 8, unless they can import another Polynesian, they'll play Earl or another flanker at 8. Or maybe Dombrandt will replace Billy. It's all up in there air, isn't it.

Out of interest, did you go to Uni, 7.5?

Curry started at 8 because Billy, Simmonds and Wilson were all injured.

Nope.

Sam Simmonds wasn't included in the squad: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51219488

Wilson played openside, with Curry at 8, in the 6 Nations following his injury. Curry was preferred to him as an 8 option because obviously Wilson is short term back up: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8077993/Anthony-Watson-Mark-Wilson-named-England-XV-face-Wales-Six-Nations.html

What is it with just making things up over the last few days...!?

I also don't know why so many people are arguing for the sake of it. It's weird and pathetic. There's obviously an interesting discussion to be had about why EJ is playing Curry at 8 in the same way there was an interesting discussion about Daly at 15 despite his obvious failings as a terrible one on one defender at 15 - it's interesting because, in spite of this, EJ made it work and Daly was in no way the reason why England lost the RWC. There's (possibly) an interesting discussion about why Curry is playing 8. I don't know why so many people are hellbent on trying to just argue for the sake of it instead...as if denying reality for the sake of a WUM is a good use of your time and a really great way to use this forum.

Erm

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would you include Johnny Hill in the squad?



Yes. He has an eye for a try from the second row and that alone means he should be given a go.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:30 pm

Soooooo. Surely the squad is getting updated soon? Think the training begins again tomorrow and havent seen anything on people being brought in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:35 pm

BT sport have done their season dream 15. Pretty decent tbh with plenty of english.

Obano LCD Stuart
Hill Itoje
Willis earl Simmonds
Spencer umaga
Thorley James Radradra kibirige piutau

Theres not too many I'd argue with there. The 2 wingers have been very good.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:39 pm

No Malins at 15?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:06 pm

The very link you posted states that Wilson had only just returned from injury, reading not your thing? Simmonds had also been injured for much of the season so wasn't selected for that reason. Good try.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:BT sport have done their season dream 15. Pretty decent tbh with plenty of english.

Obano LCD Stuart
Hill Itoje
Willis earl Simmonds
Spencer umaga
Thorley James Radradra kibirige piutau

Theres not too many I'd argue with there. The 2 wingers have been very good.

Good team but it’s all wrong. Needs Francis at TH, Ribbans and Rowlands at 2nd row. In the backs Sheedy, LRZ, Beck and Lloyd would be starters.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:39 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The very link you posted states that Wilson had only just returned from injury, reading not your thing? Simmonds had also been injured for much of the season so wasn't selected for that reason. Good try.

But he wasn't injured - he played at openside.

Look, Google is your friend. It's really useful for people who like to talk rubbish on the internet because, without knowing what you're talking about, a quick search can at least make sure you don't say something that is demonstrably untrue.

You said Wilson, Simmonds, and Billy were injured when Curry played at 8.

Only Billy was injured.

These are facts.

And they don't care about your feelings.

Sorry, but bad try from you.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:50 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:BT sport have done their season dream 15. Pretty decent tbh with plenty of english.

Obano LCD Stuart
Hill Itoje
Willis earl Simmonds
Spencer umaga
Thorley James Radradra kibirige piutau

Theres not too many I'd argue with there. The 2 wingers have been very good.

Good team but it’s all wrong. Needs Francis at TH, Ribbans and Rowlands at 2nd row. In the backs Sheedy, LRZ, Beck and Lloyd would be starters.

No willgriff john or Dollman? You drunk mikey?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:51 pm

I forget that the six nations consists of one match.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:BT sport have done their season dream 15. Pretty decent tbh with plenty of english.

Obano LCD Stuart
Hill Itoje
Willis earl Simmonds
Spencer umaga
Thorley James Radradra kibirige piutau

Theres not too many I'd argue with there. The 2 wingers have been very good.
Radrada is world class but I wouldn't personally pick him on the few rounds since restart. If he isn't in the dream team for 2020/21 I'd be astounded though.

Simmonds over Umaga at 10 for me. Umaga, Smith and Umaga have been the standout fly-halves to me which is great to see as all are young and EQP.

Gopperth would be a shoe in at 12 (the way Wasps transform with him on the pitch is remarkable) in my XV. The other centre berth is tougher but James would be a fair pick at 13 as well as 12.

From a Premiership performance perspective I think Twelvetrees deserves a shout as well. His international career is long gone but he has been very good for Gloucester at 13 but also covering 10/12. Versatile, consistent and good leader these days. Not the career many predicted for him by 31 but most Prem clubs would still benefit from having him in their squad.

Winger there are a lot of good options. I'd probably just pick Hassell-Collins (impressive try scoring in a weak side) ahead of Kibirige but the former Falcon has been a very good signing for Wasps. LZR is a weapon in attack. McConnochie has had a good season with Bath. Morohan has been consistent with Bristol. Tom O'Flaherty has really impressed with Chiefs too.

Hooker is pretty much a three horse race between LCD, Thacker and Dunn. All three have been excellent, whilst LCD is the best player Dunn has arguably been more important to his club.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:55 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I forget that the six nations consists of one match.

I forgot we're living in the age of 'alternative facts'.

You're the first guy, btw:

England: 8 Nations - Page 10 Arse-tweets

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:58 pm

Great input as always Miaow, I'll remember in future that a player being unavailable for three matches doesn't constitute being injured. Interesting take.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:29 am

The Daily Heil (usually on point with English rugby) are saying that the squad will be announced today. They think that:

- Both Simmonds brothers and Spencer will miss out
- Willis, Robson, Umaga and Barbeary (I'd presume as an apprentice player) will benefit from Wasps good form with call ups

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:54 am

So the best English 9 is going to be left out?

And there will be some debate on the Simmonds being left out aswell....

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:10 am

Which one Geordie? Think there are better options than both. If we're talking fly halfs I think Umaga has more potential than the exeter man however its Smith who is the best placed.

I'd have spencer starting myself. If robson is chosen ok, cracking player, if youngs starts then I just dont know what Jones wants in a scrum half bar slow and insipid play.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:18 am

I'd have Sam Simmonds in the squad based on the different option he brings playing at 8 but I can see why Joe would be overlooked.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:20 am

There is more in the background to Spencer being left out by EJ than being told. Whilst Spencer is from the west country originally, I was amazed that he left Saracens, when all the other younger english players have gone out on loan.

Will suit Bath and Robson isn't exactly a poor alternative for England either.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:20 pm

Whats the crack Rec?

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:54 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Great input as always Miaow, I'll remember in future that a player being unavailable for three matches doesn't constitute being injured. Interesting take.

Either he's injured or he isn't injured. I'm not sure what's so hard about this, it's the exact same thing as the 'he's 28 not 29' chat.

He was fit to play and picked at openside while Curry played at 8.

Simmonds wasn't injured, another claim you made.

So, following on from that, let's have an interesting discussion about why WJ is picking a flanker at 8.

Or...you could keep defending alternative facts. Your call.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:55 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I'd have Sam Simmonds in the squad based on the different option he brings playing at 8 but I can see why Joe would be overlooked.

That would seem unlikely given Sam Simmonds was overlooked earlier this year (despite not being injured, of course).

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:02 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Great input as always Miaow, I'll remember in future that a player being unavailable for three matches doesn't constitute being injured. Interesting take.

Either he's injured or he isn't injured. I'm not sure what's so hard about this, it's the exact same thing as the 'he's 28 not 29' chat.

He was fit to play and picked at openside while Curry played at 8.

Simmonds wasn't injured, another claim you made.

So, following on from that, let's have an interesting discussion about why WJ is picking a flanker at 8.

Or...you could keep defending alternative facts. Your call.

Alternative facts? You mean understanding the circumstances surrounding certain players instead of relying on a google search and coming up with garbage, with regards to injuries there are areas of grey, a player fit enough to play for Exeter for instance may not be deemed fit enough to play for England, simple really.

Wilson was injured going into the six nations and missed three games because of it whilst Simmonds had barely played any rugby for 18 months because of two separate serious injuries.

Now you can try twisting that to suit your argument all you want and you can act like a petulant child whilst you are at it but perhaps next time do a bit more research before posting.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:09 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I'd have Sam Simmonds in the squad based on the different option he brings playing at 8 but I can see why Joe would be overlooked.

That would seem unlikely given Sam Simmonds was overlooked earlier this year (despite not being injured, of course).
But it depends if he's going to change his plans. Simmonds / Earl are fast explosive high energy backrowers. Why would he not look at them?

Billy has been the go to...but is looking increasingly broken these days.

He did say that 60% of the side would be changed for the next world cup...which suggests a change in plan...however its difficult to believe anything Jones says...

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:16 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Great input as always Miaow, I'll remember in future that a player being unavailable for three matches doesn't constitute being injured. Interesting take.

Either he's injured or he isn't injured. I'm not sure what's so hard about this, it's the exact same thing as the 'he's 28 not 29' chat.

He was fit to play and picked at openside while Curry played at 8.

Simmonds wasn't injured, another claim you made.

So, following on from that, let's have an interesting discussion about why WJ is picking a flanker at 8.

Or...you could keep defending alternative facts. Your call.

Alternative facts? You mean understanding the circumstances surrounding certain players instead of relying on a google search and coming up with garbage, with regards to injuries there are areas of grey, a player fit enough to play for Exeter for instance may not be deemed fit enough to play for England, simple really.

Wilson was injured going into the six nations and missed three games because of it whilst Simmonds had barely played any rugby for 18 months because of two separate serious injuries.

Now you can try twisting that to suit your argument all you want and you can act like a petulant child whilst you are at it but perhaps next time do a bit more research before posting.

Ok, forget alternative facts, let's just call it incorrect information that you're hamster wheeling to justify.

This discussion has been about the lack of (top class) depth in the 8 shirt for England (as EJ sees it). I made the claim relat

I know Geordie is a big fan of Mark Wilson but he's most definitely not a top class test 8. Decent player, workmanlike, he's a versatile back rower, hence filling in at 7 to keep Curry at 8. It's obvious why this has been done despite Wilson appearing to be a better short term option at 8: age, quality, but also Jones evidently sees Curry's physical abilities as being useful in the 8 shirt and, given the depth on the flank and lack of it at 8, it seems an intelligent move to make given the talent at his disposal.

Even now after what should have been something to humble you in to not WUMming me and instead to tell the truth...you're still telling porkies. Simmonds had played more than enough rugby in the season just gone to be available for selection for the 2020 Six Nations. Here he is playing in the first game of the 2019/20 season all the way back in October 2019: https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/chiefs-22-harlequins-19. He's even used as the main image ffs to mark his return to playing. An article from Dec 2019: Now, however, the 25-year-old England No 8 looks back to his athletic, devastating best with ball in hand, ahead of facing Sale Sharks on Sunday in the Champions Cup. Which is good news for Exeter and possibly also England as the Six Nations begins to creep into view. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/12/07/sam-simmonds-interview-england-no-8-trusting-body-acl-injury/ Barely played?

Now, you're evidently trying to defend the indefensible. You keep pivoting away from the fact that your original statement claimed both were injured when evidently they were not. That's literally untrue and instead of just saying fair enough you're doubling down. You can pretend otherwise all you want but it's still wrong. A player is either injured or he is not injured. Wilson was injured until he wasn't and then he was selected - at which point he didn't displace Curry becaues he played at 7. Simmonds was not injured and wasn't selected ahead of Curry. In no way does their fitness have any sort of impact on Jones' choice of Curry at 8 for the 2020 Six Nations and, possibly, the future going forward. So why bring it up? That's a question only you can answer.

Since neither player was actually injured for the duration of the 6Ns, and given that Wilson's lack of match fitness was not deemed sufficient to keep him out of the starting line up for the Wales game, it seems reasonable that my premise that neither player is thus far deemed good enough to play in the 8 shirt for England, which is by far the most interesting discussion that could be had here. That is far more interesting than persisting down an absolute dead end 'yeah but no but', fake news lie-fest that can be easily debunked with a couple of links. It's not the 90s anymore. You can't get away with talking nonsense in the pub without expecting someone to quickly defer to google to check what seems incorrect.

And so I'm back to my original, throaway, and absolutely in no way contentious point unless someone hates the person delivering the info, which is that England have vast wealth of talent on the flank but not too much at 8. Like just about all countries in the modern game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:31 pm

Given the huge strength in depth at 6 7 and 8 Barbeary is probably being brought in as much for practicing at hooker than being round the squad as a long term 6. Anyone actually seen him line up at 2 against a team other than u 20s? Granted his cameos have been very eye catching in the loose.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:35 pm

In addition, seven players will be in camp for reconditioning. 

“We had a good three day camp last week working on the basics and developing our cohesion as a group," said Jones

“This week the focus is to raise the standard as we continue our preparation for the Italy game."

England have six upcoming fixtures this autumn starting with the uncapped Quilter Cup against the Barbarians (25 October, KO 2pm GMT, live on Sky Sports).

Following a trip to Rome to face Italy (31 Oct, KO 4.45pm GMT, live on ITV) in the final round of the delayed 2020 Guinness Six Nations, England will play four matches as part of the Autumn Nations Cup.

England will play Quilter Internationals at Twickenham Stadium against Georgia (14 November, KO 3pm) and Ireland (21 November, KO 3pm), an away match v Wales (28 November, KO 4pm) before returning to Twickenham for a placing match to determine final position in the competition (6 December, KO 2pm). All Autumn Nations Cup games will be live on Amazon Prime.

Forwards

Tom Curry, Sale Sharks
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Tom Dunn, Bath Rugby*
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Ted Hill, Worcester Warriors
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Simon Kerrod, Harlequins*
Beno Obano, Bath Rugby*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons

Backs

Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Elliot Daly, Saracens
Tom de Glanville, Bath Rugby*
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Ollie Lawrence, Worcester Warriors*
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

Reconditioning

Charlie Ewels, Bath Rugby
Jonathan Joseph, Bath Rugby
Joe Marler, Harlequins
Will Stuart, Bath Rugby
Sam Underhill, Bath Rugby
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Anthony Watson, Bath Rugby
 
* denotes uncapped player

Nicked from the rfu twitter link. No spencer as indicated above. Odd.

No cokanasiga either. probably for the best to allow him to get a few weeks rest and recover her properly.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:42 pm

I wonder who will get the No. 2 scrum half's berth, Mitchell, or 57 varieties.

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Post by Sharkey06 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:20 pm

Why pick Heinz in the squad if you are not going to select him to at least warm the bench - if he was there to make up the numbers you would assume EJ would go for someone younger. Mitchell on the other hand looks like the usual EJ patsy to silence those who would like to see England try out a more mobile/younger/faster passing option. Expect to see Youngs and Heinz doing lots of box kicking as part of an England kick chase game plan.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:48 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Would you include Johnny Hill in the squad?


I'd pick Hill and Moon as my next locks in line after Itoje and Launchbury.

Ewels will likely be in the squad but his 6 Nations appearances were more underwhelming than his early appearances. In those early caps he wasn't much more than solid either.

yes i would have Hill in the squad definitely. Ewells has not impressed me in the slightest

Yeah that's why Ribbans is set to earn his first England cap. Too bad you lost out on Rowlands though, form lock forward in the prem.

Rowlands would get nowhere near an England squad.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:18 am

You're a few days late to that discussion, but yeah keep telling yourself that. If it helps, it helps.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:45 am

I dont think England selecting youngsters over 4th choice experienced players should be any great shock for what is a bit of a non game.

Heinz is the continued oddity, but maybe the lack of the summer tour has hurt england here. With the world cup players garaunteed rest then other options would have had to be given a go, albeit in a B squad. Now england are still in that position whee they have two established scrum halves and pretty much noone else. What remains clear is that they just don't rate Spencer and a tin of custard highly enough to bother giving them another chance. But would Robson have been given a spot if available?


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:52 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Great input as always Miaow, I'll remember in future that a player being unavailable for three matches doesn't constitute being injured. Interesting take.

Either he's injured or he isn't injured. I'm not sure what's so hard about this, it's the exact same thing as the 'he's 28 not 29' chat.

He was fit to play and picked at openside while Curry played at 8.

Simmonds wasn't injured, another claim you made.

So, following on from that, let's have an interesting discussion about why WJ is picking a flanker at 8.

Or...you could keep defending alternative facts. Your call.

Alternative facts? You mean understanding the circumstances surrounding certain players instead of relying on a google search and coming up with garbage, with regards to injuries there are areas of grey, a player fit enough to play for Exeter for instance may not be deemed fit enough to play for England, simple really.

Wilson was injured going into the six nations and missed three games because of it whilst Simmonds had barely played any rugby for 18 months because of two separate serious injuries.

Now you can try twisting that to suit your argument all you want and you can act like a petulant child whilst you are at it but perhaps next time do a bit more research before posting.

Ok, forget alternative facts, let's just call it incorrect information that you're hamster wheeling to justify.

This discussion has been about the lack of (top class) depth in the 8 shirt for England (as EJ sees it). I made the claim relat

I know Geordie is a big fan of Mark Wilson but he's most definitely not a top class test 8. Decent player, workmanlike, he's a versatile back rower,


Im biased but he's a lot more than that.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:42 am

I can't remember Wilson ever having had a bad game for England in any position in the back row. He has always been one of the standout players on the field, not necessarily the best but in the top two or three.

Fantastic player, I wish he was at Saints. We could do with someone like him at 8.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 am

Youngs!!!!!! FOR Frak SAKE
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:46 am

He even shows up fantastically at prem level at lock!

But ideally he's a 6...and a bloody good one. And our new club captain.

(We also have a young bigger version of him coming through...from the very same club in cumbria aswell)

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:54 am

Wilson is a quality player, the more I saw of him the more startling it became that Robshaw had been preferred for so long. Robshaw was a solid player but feel that Wilson did/does everything that little bit better and most importantly uses his physicality to a greater degree. He carries well, tackles hard and is decent over the ball.

Many on here expect to see him jettisoned by Jones because of his age but don't see it myself, it's no coincidence that he's selected in the 23 the moment he's fit. It happened during the world cup and the six nations.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:57 am

i thought he would be jettisoned to be honest Soul, despite how much i rate him. I thought Jones would goto the kids.....But i guess Jones appreciates what you get with Mark.

Eddie likes players with guts and grizzle about them and Mark Wilson just wont take a backward step.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:28 am

You may have got your wish with Ewells being out of the squad, wilson will be covering lock.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:30 am

And you can guarantee Mark will do a sterling job if hes asked to do it.

For all im picking him up (and always have) i still really dont think he'll be massively involved in the Autumn...as i think Eddie will be looking at all the kids and how the whole pack is rejigged.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:08 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:And you can guarantee Mark will do a sterling job if hes asked to do it.

For all im picking him up (and always have) i still really dont think he'll be massively involved in the Autumn...as i think Eddie will be looking at all the kids and how the whole pack is rejigged.

Well, he's going to be in for the next couple of weeks at least: Eddie's only got 13 forwards in the squad, so all of them are going to be in the XXIII unless someone gets injured.

Props: Genge, Obano, Kerrod, Heyes
Hookers: George, Dunn
Locks: Itoje, Ribbans,
Back Rows: Curry, Dombrandt, Hill, Vunipola, Wilson

Of the back rows, Wilson and Hill look like the only ones who could be pressed into service at lock. Hill is apparently taller, but I am not sure if he's actually played there much.

Eddie's likely to rejig things after the Premiership final, but even then I'd expect him to enlarge the squad given it's quite a long run of games.

Backs are a bit more open:
Scrum halves: Youngs, Heinz, Mitchell
Fly halves: Ford, de Glanville,
Inside centres: Farrell, Lawrence
Outside centres: Marchant, Dingwall
Wings: May, Crossdale, Thorley
Fullbacks: Daly

Three of those are going to miss out - one scrum half and two from de Glanville, Lawrence, Marchant, Dingwall, Crossdale and Thorley. It will probably come down to versatility - who can best cover fullback, wing and centre.
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Post by Cumbrian on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:09 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:He even shows up fantastically at prem level at lock!

But ideally he's a 6...and a bloody good one. And our new club captain.

(We also have a young bigger version of him coming through...from the very same club in cumbria aswell)

Will Montgomery? Will be looking to see how he progresses. We've got a few Cumbrian lads in the squad, the grit is needed, it can't all be just about you Geordie dandies!

Actually looking forward to seeing how Farrar and Blamire go too, they're from closer to my old stopping ground (in fact Blamire played for my old club, Zebras!).
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:24 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:He even shows up fantastically at prem level at lock!

But ideally he's a 6...and a bloody good one. And our new club captain.

(We also have a young bigger version of him coming through...from the very same club in cumbria aswell)

Will Montgomery? Will be looking to see how he progresses.  We've got a few Cumbrian lads in the squad, the grit is needed,  it can't all be just about you Geordie dandies!

Actually looking forward to seeing how Farrar and Blamire go too, they're from closer to my old stopping ground (in fact Blamire played for my old club, Zebras!).

Ah im getting my wires crossed...Montgomery is from Marks old club...

Im talking about Rob Farrar...6'3 / 6'4 of young Cumbrian steel coming through. Mark Wilson Mk2 the bigger version.

Jamie Blamire will be an England player...you heard it here first. He will challenge George and LCD.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:30 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:And you can guarantee Mark will do a sterling job if hes asked to do it.

For all im picking him up (and always have) i still really dont think he'll be massively involved in the Autumn...as i think Eddie will be looking at all the kids and how the whole pack is rejigged.

Well, he's going to be in for the next couple of weeks at least: Eddie's only got 13 forwards in the squad, so all of them are going to be in the XXIII unless someone gets injured.

Props: Genge, Obano, Kerrod, Heyes
Hookers: George, Dunn
Locks: Itoje, Ribbans,
Back Rows: Curry, Dombrandt, Hill, Vunipola, Wilson

Of the back rows, Wilson and Hill look like the only ones who could be pressed into service at lock. Hill is apparently taller, but I am not sure if he's actually played there much.

Eddie's likely to rejig things after the Premiership final, but even then I'd expect him to enlarge the squad given it's quite a long run of games.

Backs are a bit more open:
Scrum halves: Youngs, Heinz, Mitchell
Fly halves: Ford, de Glanville,
Inside centres: Farrell, Lawrence
Outside centres: Marchant, Dingwall
Wings: May, Crossdale, Thorley
Fullbacks: Daly

Three of those are going to miss out - one scrum half and two from de Glanville, Lawrence, Marchant, Dingwall, Crossdale and Thorley. It will probably come down to versatility - who can best cover fullback, wing and centre.

Mark is 6'2 and i believe Ted HIll is 6'5 so HIll would be the obvious answer. Mark has excelled at lock for us when we literally had none for several months a few years back...but that is very small for an international lock. You can bet your a$$ he'll give it a damn good go though.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:45 pm

I rate Wilson extremely highly. Especially as a bench option given he can cover 6/7/8 to a high standard. When discussing bench options we usually talk about impact for the final 20 minutes but realistically at international level your bench back row often plays more minutes than that due to it being a very attritional position. Having a bench option that can come on for an early injury and play the rest of the game or can come on later and add physicality is very valuable.

The only thing that has pushed Wilson slightly down my England pecking order is Earl coming through. He offers that similar versatility at 6/7/8 but is also very quick for a back row. His cameo against Scotland really summed Earl up. Biblical conditions and a tight game that could be swung by one silly penalty giving up field position but he came on for 15 minutes and England's line speed immediately lifted on the fringes due to the fresh legs and his aggression in defence. I really think all Earl needs is the luck to get a couple of starts, he will establish himself in the first choice 23. Similar to Curry and Underhill when they broke through.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:00 pm

Just cant see where earl fits in a full strength back row. Number 8 seems the most likely? Or the perfect bench option. He was due to be playing 8 tonight after hughes pulled out but luatua is now out as well. Big performance in a final will do him some good.

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