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The Wales squad - Scotland, Autumn Nations Cup, and beyond

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 22 Sep 2020, 10:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wayne Pivac will announce the squad on October 6th, likely to be a Scarlet-heavy selection and rightly so. I would also like to see new players come in so we can see what they have to offer. 

Wales might play France on October 24th in warm-up, but there is currently some doubt on whether this will go ahead. Next up is the re-arranged 6N match with Scotland on October 31st. In the autumn nations cup Wales will face-off against Ireland, England, Georgia and either France, Fiji, Italy or Scotland. 

Venues to be announced.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:02 pm

king_carlos wrote:Not wanting to open an international qualifications debate but I suspect his inclusion with the England U20s in the spring may have prompted that too. He was with the U20s for some of their under the radar games against Premiership A-teams.

He was picked in secret if I remember correctly, for a secret international fixture, but he did not get selected.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:14 pm

He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Not wanting to open an international qualifications debate but I suspect his inclusion with the England U20s in the spring may have prompted that too. He was with the U20s for some of their under the radar games against Premiership A-teams.

He was picked in secret if I remember correctly, for a secret international fixture, but he did not get selected.

I thought it was for the games against Falcons and London Irish XVs that he was in the training squad for rather than any internationals. He didn't play against Falcons (Newcastle posted a report and squads on their offy whilst England didn't report on it themselves) but was rumoured to have come off the bench against LI (which didn't get reported on, squads weren't released anywhere).

They were strange affairs which seemed like they were meant to be behind closed doors until a few Premiership forums had posts about them. Being a Tigers fan I found out when a few people started discussing Tom Manz and Kit Smith being selected for instance. Once news they were happening drifted out it seemed Falcons decided to release a match report but others didn't.

Not a case of Tshiunza being picked secretly but a case of the entire squad and game intended to be secret. I'd guess that someone got hold of a screenshot of the squads or heard some players Auntie Ruth boasting about their nephew playing for the U20s and news dripped out from there!

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school. He also qualifies for France and was born in the Congo!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:25 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

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Post by The Oracle Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:00 pm

Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June). He played in all of Wales games I think. So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago Smile But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in Smile He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.
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Post by lostinwales Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:14 pm

The Oracle wrote:Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June).  He played in all of Wales games I think.  So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago Smile  But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.  

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in Smile  He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

Difficult for the big guys to stand out at U20's. Itoje was a very rare exception. The guy we had this time around (and one of our most import players in the U20 6N) won't be ready for senior honours for a couple of years at least.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:50 pm

The Oracle wrote:Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June).  He played in all of Wales games I think.  So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago Smile  But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.  

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in Smile  He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

To be fair he moved to Wales when he was about 6 or 7 years old, might even be younger, so I think that gives his qualification a bit of lee-way. He played for Whitchurch school where he was educated for the best part of his young life, he then went on to represent Rhiwbina RFC at age grade and was in the Blues/Cardiff academy until he was offered a lucrative scholarship with Exeter Uni, then low and behold he signed for the Exeter Chiefs, so I do not think he was ever anything other than Congolese or Welsh. He has played more rugby in Wales than he has any other country.

It's not as though his qualification is shady, or he was a project player ect.....

I think this is one of the easy ones to refute. thumbsup

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

Has there been any incidents involving Wales since 2000? Grannygate is the only one I can remember.

BOD hadn't made a splash with the Lions yet. Jason Robinson was league player. Warren Gatland was coaching Ireland. The Spice Girls were reeling from Gerri Halliwell leaving. Busted hadn't released an album yet. Harry Potter was yet to be adapted to cinema. Spike Milligan was still alive.

Seems even less relevant than Clive Woodward's commentary input!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:57 pm

Is it? It looks to be down to when he is deemed to have moved to Exeter doesn't it? He was certainly close to wiping out his eligibility.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:58 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

Has there been any incidents involving Wales since 2000? Grannygate is the only one I can remember.

BOD hadn't made a splash with the Lions yet. Jason Robinson was league player. Warren Gatland was coaching Ireland. The Spice Girls were reeling from Gerri Halliwell leaving. Busted hadn't released an album yet. Harry Potter was yet to be adapted to cinema. Spike Milligan was still alive.

Seems even less relevant than Clive Woodward's commentary input!

Not any famous ones at least. This is close though. I always have a second glance when there's a blood sub for Harlequins or a chequebook flashed by Saracens.

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Post by RiscaGame Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:04 pm

Think Dragons have tucked Holmes up a bit, by not offering much attack threat against Ospreys and Leinster. Giving Holmes lots of opportunities in one game is probably a bit late and gives Pivac a ready made excuse. Plus it doesn’t help when this is his knowledge.

Pivac wrote: “I don't think any of the clubs will have been happy with their form last week.”

First class idiot.

If he’s telling the truth and it was a shootout between Lane and Holmes for a slot, then I can’t grumble too much. For me, I’d have him in over McNicholl as I would be comfortable enough with Holmes at 15 too.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

Has there been any incidents involving Wales since 2000? Grannygate is the only one I can remember.

BOD hadn't made a splash with the Lions yet. Jason Robinson was league player. Warren Gatland was coaching Ireland. The Spice Girls were reeling from Gerri Halliwell leaving. Busted hadn't released an album yet. Harry Potter was yet to be adapted to cinema. Spike Milligan was still alive.

Seems even less relevant than Clive Woodward's commentary input!

Not any famous ones at least. This is close though. I always have a second glance when there's a blood sub for Harlequins or a chequebook flashed by Saracens.

Are there any not famous ones? Feels like a politicians way of saying there's been none...

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it? It looks to be down to when he is deemed to have moved to Exeter doesn't it? He was certainly close to wiping out his eligibility.

https://www.world.rugby/wr-resources/WorldRugbyDIR/Handbook/English/pubData/source/files/Regulation8.pdf wrote:As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency period.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:58 pm

So he got his full 10 years in then? That's all I'm asking.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it? It looks to be down to when he is deemed to have moved to Exeter doesn't it? He was certainly close to wiping out his eligibility.

The WRU are obviously concerned about his eligibility because he's not ready for Premiership rugby yet. Very much a rough diamond. Had Chiefs not had so many players unavailable he may well have been on loan in the Championship.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So he got his full 10 years in then? That's all I'm asking.

Moved to Wales with his family when he was 7. Went to Uni when he'd turned 18.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June).  He played in all of Wales games I think.  So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago Smile  But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.  

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in Smile  He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

To be fair he moved to Wales when he was about 6 or 7 years old, might even be younger, so I think that gives his qualification a bit of lee-way. He played for Whitchurch school where he was educated for the best part of his young life, he then went on to represent Rhiwbina RFC at age grade and was in the Blues/Cardiff academy until he was offered a lucrative scholarship with Exeter Uni, then low and behold he signed for the Exeter Chiefs, so I do not think he was ever anything other than Congolese or Welsh. He has played more rugby in Wales than he has any other country.

It's not as though his qualification is shady, or he was a project player ect.....

I think this is one of the easy ones to refute. thumbsup

What do you mean by ‘refute’? I’m not questioning his nationality. I’m pointing out that he has numerous choices, which in the world currently with movement around the world, immigration, emigration, refugees, etc. means that a lot of players have a lot of available options when it comes to representing a country. Only he will know what country he wants to play for. Everything else from us is just guessing.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:59 pm

He means I'm questioning whether he qualifies. Moved in 2010 moved back in 2020 to Exeter. Not sure the uni thing applies (Kings point above) if he's moving for a pro contract. Did he move before July in 2010 ( as he's stated that when he moved to exeter)? Has anyone even checked. That's my point.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 13 Oct 2021, 8:42 pm

Really? He was quoting me!
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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Oct 2021, 10:19 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Think Dragons have tucked Holmes up a bit, by not offering much attack threat against Ospreys and Leinster. Giving Holmes lots of opportunities in one game is probably a bit late and gives Pivac a ready made excuse. Plus it doesn’t help when this is his knowledge.

Pivac wrote: “I don't think any of the clubs will have been happy with their form last week.”

First class idiot.

If he’s telling the truth and it was a shootout between Lane and Holmes for a slot, then I can’t grumble too much. For me, I’d have him in over McNicholl as I would be comfortable enough with Holmes at 15 too.

Agreed. I'm sort of used to Dragons players' not getting picked. It's the fact that Pivac is a first class idiot that irks me.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 14 Oct 2021, 9:32 am

The Oracle wrote:Really? He was quoting me!

I was agreeing with you, sorry if you misunderstood me. OK

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Oct 2021, 9:58 am

It's strange to be short on wingers and open-sides. Holmes has played full-back for club and country, so this makes his exclusion even more odd. I think he's a better defender than McNicholl (who I do still rate). Perhaps Josh Adams will be at full back.

I can't see why some think we are missing out by not selecting Tom Rogers. He's showed on a number of occassions that he is not good enough for the step up. Looks like another Stef Evans to me - no thanks.

For me, Jac Morgan is good but I can't see what he does apart from turnovers. Another James Davies perhaps? Compared to Basham, Navidi, Wainwright and the excluded Griffiths - who have a superb all-round game and still get the turnovers. Jenkins hasn't played much, less so than Anscombe, etc. It's hard to figure out what the back-row will be, but I imagine Pivac wants to see Seb Davies or Ben Carter there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Oct 2021, 3:43 pm

Anyone else find the comments from PIvac on style strange? I get he's probably going for players need to work on what we tell them etc but the wording is more directed towards players will be ignored if their team don't pick up the systems we want? We've had similar conversations on England and the arrival of Smith, Dombrandt etc, but doesn't this limit Wales (given fewer sides) too much?


"That is an example of the quality of the No 7s we’ve got, but the question is the type of game we want to play," said the Wales coach.

"Some clubs play in a similar style to us, but others don’t and their players don’t get to work on the areas of the game that are important to us.

"They have to understand the style of game we want to play, the positional requirements within that and the skill set required to fulfil that role.

"Along with that you need the fitness levels to play at this level, the repeatability and the top end gas. When you look at all of those things, some of the players tick some of the boxes, but not all of them.

"It is our job to ensure we pick the players who tick the majority of the boxes.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:05 pm

I'm really not sure who's style he is referring to, when you look at the 'style' of the regions. We do rely on our back-row for pretty much everything though.

Interesting that he mentions top end pace. Yes I agree. Holmes has that and still wasn't picked, we were even told about how fast he was before the move.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:08 pm

Well Leicester in part as think he's talking Reffell.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:08 pm

Yeah, it doesn't read too well does it?  Sounds like they want 4 x mini Wales club sides all 'playing the Pivac Way'.  That's not how club rugby works.  Clubs have their own ethos, coaches with their own philosophies, players with their own strengths.  You can't just make 4 x clone teams.  Ridiculous if you ask me.   Some of the best Wales teams have taken the best bits from very different clubs sides, e.g. the Pontypool front row thrown in with the running of Cardiff and Llanelli backs.  Or more recently, some of the Scarlets backs and Ospreys forwards (when they were better).  I don't think it's healthy for them all to be on the same hymn sheet.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:42 pm

A coach either selects a game plan and chooses the best players to play it, or he chooses the best players and then fits a game plan in around them.

A bad coach selects a game plan and then picks players he knows can't play it.
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Post by king_carlos Thu 14 Oct 2021, 6:31 pm

Hallam Amos to retire at the end of the season to pursue his medical career.

Obviously a surprise at only 27. He's a really solid back three player that I've always enjoyed watching when I've seen him play.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 14 Oct 2021, 7:08 pm

All the best to him. Have a good few memories of him as a Dragon. Didn’t really realise until they just posted about it, that he is our second highest try scorer. Fair play to him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 15 Oct 2021, 7:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Leicester in part as think he's talking Reffell.

Perhaps in part. Reffell is a defensive monster but in attack is much less noticeable. He has the skills to link but the game plan doesn't really require him to do it much as quite a few of the Tigers forwards can do it, he normally clears rucks which doesn't fit with how the Welsh opensides normally play.

I doubt anyone will question the Tigers players fitness what with us having one of the best S&C coaches in the game and using fitness as a means to win games when the attack wasn't working last season.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri 15 Oct 2021, 1:46 pm

Pivac likes to say things like that. He has commented on Basham improving on jackalling, but then not selected one of the best jackallers in Sam Parry.

He’s pretty obsessed by work ons. I wonder if he has given himself any?

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Post by The Oracle Fri 15 Oct 2021, 2:25 pm

Laugh
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Post by Welshmushroom Today at 9:53 am

I just don't get some of his selections. Will John already has looked out of his depth at Scarlets in the opening 4 rounds. Does he really think he will somehow improve to take on some of the best sides in the World.

Some of the selections have me bewildered. The fact the coach is already talking about a blow out makes you wonder why then not select some more players that will benefit from the experiences of what is required rather than picking players who probably won't even be included in the 2023 WC Squad.

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