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The French Open 2020

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Post by sirfredperry Thu 24 Sep 2020, 5:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

With the draw about to be made for RG, I thought I would get this topic going.

For me - and I say this every year - Rafa is clear favourite, although the strange nature of all sport this Covid-19 year might mean someone else (Thiem? Djoko?) might have a chance.

Halep stands out as the women's favourite, particularly as some of the top women are not appearing. More on this after the draw.

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Post by slashermcguirk Sun 11 Oct 2020, 8:56 pm

Graf was without doubt a better player than Williams in my opinion. The past 10 years has been a woeful era for women’s tennis, i still think when Henin retired that opened the door for Williams. Henin and Williams had a nice rivalry. Williams led 8-6 overall but in grand slams Henin was 4-3. She was the one player that didn’t fear Williams.

Graf faces much stiffer competition and she achieved the likes of the calendar slam which Williams never managed despite weaker opposition. The grand slam wins might be 23-22 in Williams favour but Graf for me was a better player

quote="Atila"]Who's the greatest?

Unless one of them has a clear lead over the others, then it's still up for debate. For me, winning one or two more majors than the other just gives you bragging rights nothing more. Just like Serena Williams, she has one more major than Steffi Graf, but I still rate Graf as the greater player and if someone rates Martina Navratilova as greater than either Graf or Williams, that's fine with me too. There's a whole career and other tournament wins to also consider.[/quote]

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Post by Atila Sun 11 Oct 2020, 8:57 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:As with beauty... its all in the eye of the beholder :-)
Yes it is. Just like heavyweight boxing. There are some who say Muhammad Ali is the GOAT, some say Mike Tyson and some would say Jack Dempsey. But if we're only allowed to use cold statistics then neither of the three that I have mentioned would have a claim to being the GOAT. Joe Louis has the record for the most title defences and the longest reign, and Rocky Marciano is the only heavyweight champ to retire undefeated. However, Muhammad Ali is generally thought of as the heavyweight GOAT.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:06 pm

Nice tweet from Fed
https://twitter.com/rogerfederer/status/1315330172221116418/photo/1

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Post by Oioi Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:08 pm

Very much agree with what you say Atila, have often thought that the margins are too fine and thus a clear lead is needed to cement GOAT status and it looks like no one is going to have that. I'd struggle to argue if someone were to still claim Borg or Laver as the GOAT as they both achieved unique feats back when there wasn't as much emphasis on stats and records. Who knows what they could have achieved with a target number of slams as motivation?


Last edited by Oioi on Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Atila Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:08 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Nice tweet from Fed
https://twitter.com/rogerfederer/status/1315330172221116418/photo/1
That's nice of Fed.

I wonder if he's really concerned about being overtaken for majors or is it just people on the internet who give a toss?

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:08 pm

Great stuff.. the mark of a true sportsman. Im sure Rafa, like his fans, greatly appreciate that gracious comment from him

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Post by slashermcguirk Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:11 pm

Federer Nadal and Djokovic remind me a bit of the era of Ali, Foreman and Frazier. All totally unique styles and tricky match ups for each other. While Ali beat both, Frazier was a brutal match up and he was so close to winning their deciding bout as Ali nearly threw in the towel. Foreman was an absolute beast and his size killed Frazier. When it came to Ali, Foreman pummelled him round after round and ran out of gas and Ali floored him.

I just love in top level sport and rivalries the importance of match ups and styles. Federer such a natural talent, Nadal a physical beast and the ultimate competitor and Djokovic is almost a hybrid of the two, I think more naturally gifted than Nadal but with really strong mental strength that has given him an edge over Federer in the biggest matches

Atila wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:As with beauty... its all in the eye of the beholder :-)
Yes it is. Just like heavyweight boxing. There are some who say Muhammad Ali is the GOAT, some say Mike Tyson and some would say Jack Dempsey. But if we're only allowed to use cold statistics then neither of the three that I have mentioned would have a claim to being the GOAT. Joe Louis has the record for the most title defences and the longest reign, and Rocky Marciano is the only heavyweight champ to retire undefeated. However, Muhammad Ali is generally thought of as the heavyweight GOAT.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:13 pm

Atila wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Nice tweet from Fed
https://twitter.com/rogerfederer/status/1315330172221116418/photo/1
That's nice of Fed.

I wonder if he's really concerned about being overtaken for majors or is it just people on the internet who give a toss?

I'm sure every top sportsman wants to be the most successful, but it's the fans that argue the most, that's for sure.

Rafa's equally gracious reply is in this article -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/54502574

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:15 pm

slashermcguirk wrote:Federer Nadal and Djokovic remind me a bit of the era of Ali, Foreman and Frazier. All totally unique styles and tricky match ups for each other. While Ali beat both, Frazier was a brutal match up and he was so close to winning their deciding bout as Ali nearly threw in the towel. Foreman was an absolute beast and his size killed Frazier. When it came to Ali, Foreman pummelled him round after round and ran out of gas and Ali floored him.

I just love in top level sport and rivalries the importance of match ups and styles. Federer such a natural talent, Nadal a physical beast and the ultimate competitor and Djokovic is almost a hybrid of the two, I think more naturally gifted than Nadal but with really strong mental strength that has given him an edge over Federer in the biggest matches

Atila wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:As with beauty... its all in the eye of the beholder :-)
Yes it is. Just like heavyweight boxing. There are some who say Muhammad Ali is the GOAT, some say Mike Tyson and some would say Jack Dempsey. But if we're only allowed to use cold statistics then neither of the three that I have mentioned would have a claim to being the GOAT. Joe Louis has the record for the most title defences and the longest reign, and Rocky Marciano is the only heavyweight champ to retire undefeated. However, Muhammad Ali is generally thought of as the heavyweight GOAT.

Well thats another opinion and debate which I wont bother to go into :-)

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Post by Oioi Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:22 pm

The words of appreciation and respect between Federer and Nadal have got me a tad emotional. Their fierce rivalry appears to have transformed into a genuine friendship in the past few years and it's lovely to see. Glad there are other players who have a bit of needle between them though as that's good for the sport too!

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Post by slashermcguirk Sun 11 Oct 2020, 9:38 pm

I think it’s inevitable that type of respect and friendship towards the twilight of their careers. I think the top 3 will end up being on very good terms as they head into retirement. Their rivalries are so intense but I think they will all really appreciate what each other brought to the mix.

Nadal & Federer and Nadal & Djokovic have always had good relationships off court. Federer & Djokovic had been a frosty relationship earlier in their careers but I think they get on much better these days. I recall Federer recently said talk of him and Novak not getting on was nonsense stirred by the media

quote="Oioi"]The words of appreciation and respect between Federer and Nadal have got me a tad emotional. Their fierce rivalry appears to have transformed into a genuine friendship in the past few years and it's lovely to see. Glad there are other players who have a bit of needle between them though as that's good for the sport too![/quote]

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 11 Oct 2020, 10:27 pm

I ran out of superlatives years ago in trying to do justice to what Nadal has accomplished on clay and in Paris in particular. Maybe the best way I can put it is that it's utterly frightening. Almost beyond comprehension that one player can dominate so thoroughly for so long, against the quality of opposition he's been faced with. 13-0 in finals, never taken to five sets in any of them. 13-1 combined winning record against Djokovic and Federer. Has crushed Thiem, generally considered next cab off the rank in terms of winning a Slam (which he's subsequently done) and arguably the heir to the clay court throne, twice in back-to-back finals in 2018 and 2019 when well into his thirties.

The GOAT debate is very much alive for the time being, but in terms of significance, numbers and the sheer logic defiance of it all, Nadal's French Open ledger absolutely piddles all over Federer's at Wimbledon and Djokovic's in Melbourne - and I say that knowing fully well that Roger and Novak's accomplishments at Wimbledon and the Australian Open respectively are absolutely astonishing in their own right.

This is a full fifteen years after he first won the title, and he's still head and shoulders above everyone else on the red stuff. It's not even close. This was a guy who supposedly had a style which wouldn't avail itself to a long career and who was supposed to have been retired by now, too.

Records are always there to be broken but I would honestly bet *nearly* anything that nobody will ever surpass Nadal's thirteen victories at one Slam. Scary thing is, he may not be done just yet. A lot can happen in one season in tennis, especially when you're talking about a 34 year old, but why can't he add at least one more Roland Garros title before he calls it quits, whenever that will be? But it doesn't matter if he doesn't. In terms of his pre-eminence on clay he's already a one-off and his numbers are akin to Bradman's 99.94 batting average.
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Post by Jeff Navarro Mon 12 Oct 2020, 12:00 am

I think one off the key aspects to Nadal’s revitalisation has been Carlos Moyá becoming his main coach. It seemed apparent that under his uncle Toni, Rafa’s game had started to unravel in 2015.
Moyá, a pretty great player in his own right, instilled a more attacking gameplay. None more so evident than today, Nadal won more points 1-5 shot rallies than Djokovic. When Djokovic has beaten/dominated Nadal, the Serb has feasted on that category.
It took a brave man to join the team of a 14 time major winner and implement significant chances, but they proof is in the pudding as such. More importantly Moyá has probably extended Nadal’s career by 2/3 years - the likes of Thiem and Djokovic won’t be too happy about that at Roland Garros 2021.

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Post by lydian Mon 12 Oct 2020, 12:57 am

Vamos Rafa!!!!

And best wishes to all the old (and new) names here...boy there’s been some water passed on here and the Old BBC 606. To one of the posters above, I think good old Dougie passed away some time back. Bogbrush defected to the Tenez’s Federer Shrine Forum so they could worship their idol unopposed. How they must be furiously sticking pins in Nadal’s effigy tonight after they once thought “20” was way way beyond Nadal’s reach and “limited” skill set  laughing

As they say...he who laughs last laughs loudest Smile

It’s still game on of course...well not for Federer tbh, his star is on the wane now, he can retire gracefully and watch Nadal & Djokovic slug out GOAT. For their part, Nadal / Federer’s names will always be indelibly entwined whenever their careers come to be fully reckoned by keyboard warriors. Djokovic is in the mix too but he just doesn’t quite have their tennis-charisma or thrilling rivalry. For my man...well, the boy done good after a doctor once told him to retire at 19 years old with a congenitally deformed foot bone. Let’s just say he’s not done too badly for a “ball bashing grinder”. I always said Rafa would catch Federer’s slam count and got so much heat back for it. Oh that poor effigy....haha.

Salut!

PS...blimey 9170 posts here and none for about 5 years now...I must have been busy here once upon a time!
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Post by It Must Be Love Mon 12 Oct 2020, 1:24 am

lydian wrote:Vamos Rafa!!!!

And best wishes to all the old (and new) names here...boy there’s been some water passed on here and the Old BBC 606. To one of the posters above, I think good old Dougie passed away some time back. Bogbrush defected to the Tenez’s Federer Shrine Forum so they could worship their idol unopposed. How they must be furiously sticking pins in Nadal’s effigy tonight after they once thought “20” was way way beyond Nadal’s reach and “limited” skill set  laughing

As they say...he who laughs last laughs loudest Smile

It’s still game on of course...well not for Federer tbh, his star is on the wane now, he can retire gracefully and watch Nadal & Djokovic slug out GOAT. For their part, Nadal / Federer’s names will always be indelibly entwined whenever their careers come to be fully reckoned by keyboard warriors. Djokovic is in the mix too but he just doesn’t quite have their tennis-charisma or thrilling rivalry. For my man...well, the boy done good after a doctor once told him to retire at 19 years old with a congenitally deformed foot bone. Let’s just say he’s not done too badly for a “ball bashing grinder”. I always said Rafa would catch Federer’s slam count and got so much heat back for it. Oh that poor effigy....haha.

Salut!

PS...blimey 9170 posts here and none for about 5 years now...I must have been busy here once upon a time!

Hope you're doing well Lydian Hug

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 7:31 am

It Must Be Love wrote:
lydian wrote:Vamos Rafa!!!!

And best wishes to all the old (and new) names here...boy there’s been some water passed on here and the Old BBC 606. To one of the posters above, I think good old Dougie passed away some time back. Bogbrush defected to the Tenez’s Federer Shrine Forum so they could worship their idol unopposed. How they must be furiously sticking pins in Nadal’s effigy tonight after they once thought “20” was way way beyond Nadal’s reach and “limited” skill set  laughing

As they say...he who laughs last laughs loudest Smile

It’s still game on of course...well not for Federer tbh, his star is on the wane now, he can retire gracefully and watch Nadal & Djokovic slug out GOAT. For their part, Nadal / Federer’s names will always be indelibly entwined whenever their careers come to be fully reckoned by keyboard warriors. Djokovic is in the mix too but he just doesn’t quite have their tennis-charisma or thrilling rivalry. For my man...well, the boy done good after a doctor once told him to retire at 19 years old with a congenitally deformed foot bone. Let’s just say he’s not done too badly for a “ball bashing grinder”. I always said Rafa would catch Federer’s slam count and got so much heat back for it. Oh that poor effigy....haha.

Salut!

PS...blimey 9170 posts here and none for about 5 years now...I must have been busy here once upon a time!

Hope you're doing well Lydian Hug



Good Lord Lydian fancy meeting you here !!!!and we are still singing the praises of the ball grinder, the moon baller, and he with no natural talent !!!!!!!!!
We never lost faith did we?? he has become what we always knew he would A FIRM CONTENDER FOR THE GOAT AWARD !!!!
If he has achieved what he has now... what would he have achieved without all those injuries and knee surgeries.?
and HE ISNT FINISHED YET !!Please not Bogbrush and Tenez !!
Hope you are well Lydian I couldnt resist a last visit back to this old place 13 FO was good enough reason !!!

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 12 Oct 2020, 7:35 am

Fantastic to see so many posts and posters, including some old favourites, coming on to talk about RG this year.

Please stay with it, if only for the Slams. If all goes well, we won't have to wait too long for Melbourne in January. And the good news for Rafa is that the RG is less than eight months away.

Looking back on yesterday's final I think we can all agree that Rafa was phenomenal. I know some reckon that Djoko was poor. Yes, there were far too many UEs and yes, his serving was not great.

But there was still a lot to admire in the Serb's play. Ironically, some of the best rallies came in the first set when Djoko got bagelled (spelling?)

The repeated UEs and over-done drop shots that followed were as much frustration at his ability to get anything past Rafa as anything else.

As I pointed out earlier, this is not the first time that Rafa has destroyed a fellow Big Three player in an RG final. Federer got just four games, and a mere 52 points, in the 2008 final.

As for the GOAT debate, it now seems inevitable that Rafa, and later Djoko too, will pass Rog's GS title total. Novak will be favourite for Melbourne and if he wins there the debate will rage on.

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Post by slashermcguirk Mon 12 Oct 2020, 7:40 am

Mad seeing all the old names on here from bbc606. I remember back in those days thinking I would love to see Novak get to 8 slams some day. I thought because of the Federer and Nadal dominance pre 2010 that Djokovic might end up somewhere around Becker, Wilander and Agassi in terms of slam count.

Here we are now with 20 slams for Fed and Nadal and 17 for Djokovic. I still don’t get people saying the Fed and Nadal rivalry as best. I find the Djokovic vs Fed and Djokovic vs Nadal by far the most competitive. Nadals dominant head to head vs Federer took away from that rivalry

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Post by No name Bertie Mon 12 Oct 2020, 7:49 am

Nadal has adapted his style of play following all those injuries surely.  Adaptability is often needed for longevity and I am sure the Nadal that won his first grand slam in 2005 was not the same as the Nadal that won in 2010, nor the 2010+ Nadal the same as the 2017+ Nadal.

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Post by Oioi Mon 12 Oct 2020, 8:40 am

Yeah I find Nadal great to watch these days, so much tactical nous and yes, variety! I admit I used to be in the "he's not naturally talented" camp - perhaps we all got this impression because his baseline defences were so impenetrable that he could stick to a very simple game plan and didn't need to display the other facets to his game as much. With the way he plays now it's clear that he's got all the shots and a unique style, though he does sometimes revert to old habits against the big hitters e.g. Sinner.

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 12 Oct 2020, 8:53 am

Well I doubt whether even the staunchest Rafa fan would have thought their man would still be so dominant and fit approaching his mid-30s.

But then the Big Three keep winning their battles with Father Time. Only Thiem last month in New York has broken the sequence of 30-something GS title wins which goes back to, and including, Stan the Man at the USO in 2016.

And, to the consternation of the younger players, the pattern shows no signs of changing. Djoko, in Melbourne, and Rafa, in Paris, will be favourites to win the next two Slams.

None of the young bloods have shown much aptitude for Wimbledon so far, which just leaves the USO as a possibility in 2021.

Of course, somebody might have a storming 2021 and surprise us. For the time being, the players can reflect on the fact that three of their number have now won an astonishing FIFTY SEVEN Slams between them.


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Post by Oioi Mon 12 Oct 2020, 9:45 am

Did anyone notice some of the tactical change ups Nadal used yesterday? I noticed a couple of things; short slice to Novak's backhand and deep, high bouncing shots also to the backhand. He was mixing the pace and depth of his shots so much that Novak simply couldn't find his rhythm and I'm curious as to whether this tactic will pay dividends on other surfaces. The short slice in particular seemed to give him fits - very hard to get enough topspin on a 2 hander to get a low short ball up and down for a winner and he put so many of them long.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 10:19 am

My take on yesterdays game simplistic though it is.... was he did something I have wanted him to do for so long.. Novak is clever at "sucking in" his opponents forcing them to play his game. Yesterday Rafa took HIS game to Novak and refused to let Novak dictate. .He played a much more attacking game That first set shocked Novak as he was much more used to seeing Rafa 10 feet behind the base line..... Rafa dominated the match from the outset ..Novak was at sixes and sevens in the first two sets this was a Rafa he hadnt bargained for

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Post by CaledonianCraig Mon 12 Oct 2020, 11:07 am

Great to see 'old' posters back such as lydian and Haddie-Nuff. Nice to read your posts again.

Haddie tapped into saying you'll need to wait a mighty long time for someone to match today's legends - very true. But the terrifying thought is that this generation has three legends all at one time in Nadal, Federer and Djokovic. That just backs up what I've always said about this being the golden generation.
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Post by dummy_half Mon 12 Oct 2020, 11:08 am

Well, Rafa now level with Fed in slams overall, and 2 ahead of Djokovic. While I don't think we'll ever get a consensus on the overall GOAT debate (for me, Federer's style with success puts him ahead, but I can understand other arguments), I think we can now, and have been able for a few years, to unanimously call Nadal the clay court and particularly French Open GOAT.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 11:16 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Great to see 'old' posters back such as lydian and Haddie-Nuff. Nice to read your posts again.

Haddie tapped into saying you'll need to wait a mighty long time for someone to match today's legends - very true. But the terrifying thought is that this generation has three legends all at one time in Nadal, Federer and Djokovic. That just backs up what I've always said about this being the golden generation.


Nice to see you again Craig.. sorry about your boy.. I would really love to see him make up the four again.. but he isnt recovering from those hips of his too well is he?
Not sure I will hang around on these boards too long,, getting a bit long in the tooth now.. thought Id leave it to you young uns.. but whilst Rafa keeps going so will I !!!!!

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Post by CaledonianCraig Mon 12 Oct 2020, 11:35 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Great to see 'old' posters back such as lydian and Haddie-Nuff. Nice to read your posts again.

Haddie tapped into saying you'll need to wait a mighty long time for someone to match today's legends - very true. But the terrifying thought is that this generation has three legends all at one time in Nadal, Federer and Djokovic. That just backs up what I've always said about this being the golden generation.


Nice to see you again Craig.. sorry about your boy.. I would really love to see him make up the four again.. but he isnt recovering from those hips of his too well is he?
Not sure I will hang around on these boards too long,, getting a bit long in the tooth now.. thought Id leave it to you young uns.. but whilst Rafa keeps going so will I !!!!!

Well he is only six matches into his comeback so it will take time. Sadly, Andy's great strength is also his weakness. His bloody-minded stubbornness to not give up means he won't change playing style which may actually help him more. Still no one can take his achievements away and as long as he is happy to go on playing that is all that matters. All up to him and him alone when he calls time on his glittering career.
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Post by sirfredperry Mon 12 Oct 2020, 12:07 pm

It would be nice to see those who have returned to this forum for this year's French sticking around.

Numbers have been a bit depleted of late, so the more the merrier.

They must have long ago run out of Paris landmarks to take Rafa to on the day after an RG Slam triumph. I see they've gone back to basics today. The great man is pictured in front of....the Eiffel Tower.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 12:21 pm

He will probably get a job as a tour guide when he retires :-)

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Post by bradman99.94 Mon 12 Oct 2020, 2:43 pm

Well, that's the French Open done and dusted, Wimbledon in a couple of weeks... oh wait

Happy to predict the result for the next 3 or 4 FO's: Nadal to beat Djokovic in the Final

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Post by No name Bertie Mon 12 Oct 2020, 3:07 pm

All time total number of Grand Slam wins (singles)
Margaret Court..... 24
Serena Williams..... 23
Steffi Graf............ 22
Rafael Nadal.......... 20
Roger Federer........ 20
Helen Wills Moody.. 19
Chris Evert........... 18
Martina Navratilova 18
Novak Djokovic...... 17
Pete Sampras........ 14

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Post by Atila Mon 12 Oct 2020, 3:14 pm

No name Bertie wrote:All time total number of Grand Slam wins (singles)
Margaret Court..... 24
Serena Williams..... 23
Steffi Graf............ 22
Rafael Nadal.......... 20
Roger Federer........ 20
Helen Wills Moody.. 19
Chris Evert........... 18
Martina Navratilova 18
Novak Djokovic...... 17
Pete Sampras........ 14
Nice list. OK

I don't remember any fuss being made about who was the GOAT when Graf passed Evert and Navratilova for major wins or people calling Emerson the GOAT when he was the leader on the men's side with 12 majors. So I don't see why just having more majors than someone else automatically makes you greater than someone with less majors.

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Post by No name Bertie Mon 12 Oct 2020, 3:45 pm

Atila wrote:I don't remember any fuss being made about who was the GOAT when Graf passed Evert and Navratilova for major wins or people calling Emerson the GOAT when he was the leader on the men's side with 12 majors. So I don't see why just having more majors than someone else automatically makes you greater than someone with less majors.
There is quite a bit that can be said looking at the stats that go beyond the simple "totals", but beyond that you need to look into the various contexts and developments of the sport as well as watching them play and that is not covered by the stats. When analysing sports it is best to imagine it as a chronological development rather than simplistic GOAT debate. GOAT debates assumes the sport doesn't evolve and develop.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Oct 2020, 3:49 pm

Atila wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:All time total number of Grand Slam wins (singles)
Margaret Court..... 24
Serena Williams..... 23
Steffi Graf............ 22
Rafael Nadal.......... 20
Roger Federer........ 20
Helen Wills Moody.. 19
Chris Evert........... 18
Martina Navratilova 18
Novak Djokovic...... 17
Pete Sampras........ 14
Nice list. OK

I don't remember any fuss being made about who was the GOAT when Graf passed Evert and Navratilova for major wins or people calling Emerson the GOAT when he was the leader on the men's side with 12 majors. So I don't see why just having more majors than someone else automatically makes you greater than someone with less majors.

It's a simplistic way for people to rate them to be honest, I cannot envisage a scenario where I consider Nadal to be greater than Federer let alone Djokovic whom I would have below Sampras and Borg in such a list. Someone like Andy Murray muddies the waters too, he's a lot closer to the likes of Wilander, Lendl, Edberg and Becker than their respective GS titles would suggest.

I for instance think Federer has a game that would serve him well in any era across most surfaces but that doesn't quite apply to the other two who as i've said before have benefitted from slower courts, do I see either of them consistently beating the 03-08 version outside of a clay court? No.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:01 pm

As I said above its all in the eye of the beholder.. I notice you say that Federer's game serves him well in ANY era across MOST surfaces mmmmm that in itself is most debateable.. dont see he has a great deal of success on the red stuff.. and we will never know how he would have matched up against the likes of Bjorg will we ??? As Rafa and Novak are stiill 5/6 yrs younger than Fed
you may well have to review the "envisaged scenario"

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:03 pm

Hence the use of the word MOST.

I don't think I will be reviewing any such scenarios; Nadal is the man on clay no doubt but Djokovic is largely an irrelevance in any such debates, speed the courts up and his game would fall apart much like he did in New York.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:13 pm

Ill concede that it is your opinion I respect it but dont agree with it ... and neither Im sure will many others ..


As for Fed v Bjorg... now that is something I would love to have seen.. He held 11 GS at the time of his prematur4 retirement
14yrs younger than Fed.. And that is a scenario I can envisage

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:19 pm

Borg is a massive elephant in the room when it comes to these discussions, largely bypassed the Aussie open and had started to make serious inroads at the US open which he arguably should have won at least once by the time of his retirement. Hard to say how many titles he left out there with his retirement but have to assume he'd have won a few more, the rise of Ivan Lendl would have been a major obstacle at the French going forward. 16/17 if not more perhaps?

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:27 pm

BUT Ivan Lendl couldnt win Wimbledon .. Borg couldnt win the US and Australian Open... Fed hasnt won RG
Novak and Rafa have won them all

So there are still unanswered questions and the debate will go on and on and on

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Post by Atila Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:28 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:     BUT   Ivan Lendl couldnt win Wimbledon .. Borg couldnt win the US and Australian Open... Fed hasnt won RG
Novak and Rafa have won them all

So there are still unanswered questions and the debate will go on  and on and on
Yes he has.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:32 pm

On todays courts Lendl would have won Wimbledon multiple times which highlights the difference in court speeds.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:35 pm

Atila wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:     BUT   Ivan Lendl couldnt win Wimbledon .. Borg couldnt win the US and Australian Open... Fed hasnt won RG
Novak and Rafa have won them all

So there are still unanswered questions and the debate will go on  and on and on
Yes he has.


Oh of course your right it was when Soderling did him a favour :-)

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:36 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:On todays courts Lendl would have won Wimbledon multiple times which highlights the difference in court speeds.


Im sorry but I quit this conversation you have no way of knowing that...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/tennis/ivan-lendl-never-winning-wimbledon-10726029

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:49 pm

Atila wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:All time total number of Grand Slam wins (singles)
Margaret Court..... 24
Serena Williams..... 23
Steffi Graf............ 22
Rafael Nadal.......... 20
Roger Federer........ 20
Helen Wills Moody.. 19
Chris Evert........... 18
Martina Navratilova 18
Novak Djokovic...... 17
Pete Sampras........ 14
Nice list. OK

I don't remember any fuss being made about who was the GOAT when Graf passed Evert and Navratilova for major wins or people calling Emerson the GOAT when he was the leader on the men's side with 12 majors. So I don't see why just having more majors than someone else automatically makes you greater than someone with less majors.

The GOAT is a relatively new concept in terms of serious discussions (in sport in general, not just tennis) and I can't help but think it's importance has been hyped up by the media as a way of selling what ever the media sell these days. Social media then latches on and it all takes up more of people's time than it healthily should. Personally I would probably prefer to watch Agassi play than any other player I've seen which makes him my GOAT. No one approaches these things impartially or objectively.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:50 pm

Absolutely

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 12 Oct 2020, 4:58 pm

Borg's ability to switch from the clay of RG to the, then, fast courts of Wimbledon was amazing.

McEnroe was devastated when Borg retired. He relished the rivalry in the same way, I think, that the Big Three relish theirs.

My father, who played tennis at county level, took one look at Lendl at Wimbledon and forecast he would never win it (Ivan, that is - not my dad)

But I think dad, who died in 1995, would have said Lendl would have had a chance at SW19 once the courts slowed there.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 5:07 pm

[quote="sirfredperry"]Borg's ability to switch from the clay of RG to the, then, fast courts of Wimbledon was amazing.

McEnroe was devastated when Borg retired. He relished the rivalry in the same way, I think, that the Big Three relish theirs.

My father, who played tennis at county level, took one look at Lendl at Wimbledon and forecast he would never win it (Ivan, that is - not my dad)

But I think dad, who died in 1995, would have said Lendl would have had a chance at SW19 once the courts slowed there. [/quot


But SF given the changes in court conditions, balls etc etc. Do you think Bjorn would have had a better chance at the US or AO ..now
I too was devastated when he retired.. I was a Bjorn groupie !!!!! given your forecast for Lendl then Federer can think himself lucky lol !!!

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Post by No name Bertie Mon 12 Oct 2020, 5:19 pm

Bjorn Borg retired because the ATP wouldn't allow him to lessen his year round tennis schedule.  He wanted to continue but he also wanted to explore other career ventures such as starting up his own clothes line.  

Venus Williams (as well as Serena Williams) were able to explore other career ventures while still being on the WTA tour.  I remember Venus Williams (and her sister) promoting Venus's new line of women's sports clothes - wearing their new look tennis costumes while playing the grand slams for a massive free publicity.

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 12 Oct 2020, 5:26 pm

H-nuff
Very pleased you're posting.

Borg, I think, would have done very well in the Slams now. It's always difficult - nay sometimes impossible - to compare eras. You can compare surfaces, I guess, which is why those who have never won the French are often regarded, possibly harshly, as not being quite the very best.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 12 Oct 2020, 5:26 pm

Also forgotten was that Bjorn was in the midst of a very acrimonious divorce from his first wife.. I think with the pressures of tennis and his personal life he could not cope.. too much emphasis waS put on his loss to McEnroe . although it was the straw that broke the camels back..It was not the whole story I feel that his fans, and tennis world, never fully recovered from that loss.. being left with WHAT IF.. 26 yrs old far too young to retire !!

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