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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 20:12

First topic message reminder :

First winter tour for England confirmed today: three T20s and three ODIs in South Africa from the 27th November-9th December.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/54537709

A possible limited-overs tour of Pakistan, which would be England's first trip to that country since 2005, as well as visits to Sri Lanka and India may also go ahead in early 2021.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 13:30

Was a middle-overs masterclass from Rashid.

England firmly in control. Losing de Kock just before the end of the PP scuppered South Africa's momentum. After a good start, they now look unlikely to make 160.

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 13:47

Remarkably I think Rashid is still improving in the shortest form!

It's good to see Stokes bowl as well. Still lacking the second spinner but it looks a more balanced attack with a 6th bowling option.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 14:07

Not such a smart day for scurran was it, looks like SA purposefully targeted him after the last game. England such a unit though, always seems to be someone to pick up the slack.

No total is a given in this format but youd fancy england to chase down sub 160 without much bother

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 14:09

Archer has become a ludicrously good T20 bowler.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 14:25

England should fancy chasing that. Seriously good catch by Tom Curran by the way that really changed the momentum in that innings...fielding is so important in limited overs.
If it hadn't been for that flurry of runs from Linde , SA would have been massively under par. Better not get too cocky though ; an England collapse is always possible , even in this format Smile

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 14:51

Ugly dismissal for an ugly innings again from Roy.

With Roy in this sort of form they should really have a reserve top order batsman out there. Banton isn't everyone's favourite here but personally I rate him and would rather see him opening with Buttler at the minute.

I wonder if they will drop him for the 3rd game, move Bairstow and Morgan up with Billings coming in at 6?

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:00

I’d be reticent to move Bairstow up again tbh. Don’t want to keep shunting him about. If you have made the call that he is your number four just keep him there.

Don’t have any generally massive long term concerns about Roy. When he is out of touch a la CT 2017 when he was dropped from the ODI team he does look terrible. Just needs cricket. With the WT20 in India though, his weakness vs spin could be exploited. Maybe him bat him at #2 in the order?

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:02

Rather messy first six overs from England...needed those three boundaries at the end of it ! Think Buttler is away now though so the run rate shouldn't be a problem.

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:03

3 boundaries in a row from Buttler to finish the first powerplay.

Malan reverse sweeps the first ball from Linde for another four.

4 deliveries and the wee bit of pressure SA were building is lifted and the RR is back up to around 7.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:09

Yes , Roy is probably in need of a few games...he hasn't had a lot of cricket lately. Make more sense to give him a chance to find some form rather than mess around with the order just yet.

Buttler gone to a rather ugly swipe . Didn't really need that. 52/2 off eight so some work to do...

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:13

Bairstow out now. England up against it a bit here.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:14

And now Bairstow holes out to the spinner...

That collapse is developing ghost

Still batting to come but perhaps we should not assume this is a done deal...

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:19

Low, slow pitch offering a bit of spin? Could be fairly similar to what they will encounter in the WT20. So would be nice to see them get over the line here. Not easy to just come in and tee off though.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:28

Hmm. Need another 74 off eight. But the spin is all but done now and the seamers might be a bit easier to score off.
Could do with one "big" over round about now...

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:42

Ah. Stokes a nice big six and then gone trying to repeat it...death by spin an old England story...three now for Shamsi clap

Leaving a lot up to Cap'n Morgan...need more than ten per over. Started well though...and Malan is playing a good hand without going silly about it.


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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:56

50 for Malan with a lovely little burst, and then out. Should have done the job though - 13 needed off 14.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:56

Excellent from Malan ...gone up through the gears to a fine fifty and seems to have just about sealed a win that was looking very dodgy four overs ago : out now to an acrobatic boundary catch from Hendricks but only 13 needed now at a "mere" run per ball...

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:58

Looks like being another rocky win for England. Perhaps slightly disappointing after a strong effort in the field, but it is a slow, tough pitch. Not the pancakes other teams have been playing on in Australasia recently!

Malan doing most of the damage today.

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:00

Fair play to Malan, he put a lot of pressure on himself being 25ish off 30. If he gets out there you'd say it was a poor knock, but he picked up the pace lovely.

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:05

1 off 5 for SCurran... Not good. Now need 3 off 4 with Jordan on strike! A twist coming?

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:06

Going to the last over again , but Rabada would need a bit of magic to stop them , surely ?
In fact he'll need a miracle as it's only three needed now...

Trying to provide one though with a dot and the wicket of Sam C !

Enter Jordan with four balls left...

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:07

Not sure I'd be ducking with 1 needed off 3 Chris.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:08

And all done with one ball to spare...

Don't like doing it easily , do they ? A win is a win Smile

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:11

7 of the last 8 t20i series won, 15 of the last 20 games - they’re good this lot
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:27

England dominating limited-overs cricket is something I can't get my head around.

From 1993 (when the game started to modernise) until 2015, barring one T20 World Cup win in 2010 (still not sure how that happened), England were hopeless at this limited-overs stuff, with inconsistent selection, tactics (batting, bowling and fielding) that were light years behind the best teams, and utterly useless players that kept getting picked (in part due to a lack of alternatives).

There were ritual humiliations, especially at World Cups - like the debacle in 2007 where England may as well have been playing a different sport to Australia, or the embarrassment of the 1999 World Cup, or NZ and Aus trashing England in 2015 followed up with the defeat to Bangladesh, or Yuvraj hitting six sixes against Broad, or the two losses to the Netherlands at the T20 World Cup in 2009 and 2014. It goes on and on.

It seemed England would never catch up. Franchise cricket, with the advent of the IPL, seemed to have left England permanently behind the curve again.

And now, here we are. England World Champions at the 50-over stuff, and currently the most dominant team in the world with the T20 game. Utterly mad and utterly brilliant.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 17:16

England just seem to have forgotten how to win comfortably. This isnt exactly and all star SA side and some of them pretty short of cricket compared to the England players so whilst 2-0 can never be bad its not exactly been rosy. Same with the summer white ball, overall they had a good number of wins but they didn't look invincible.

Still have be the ranked number one, but the way Aus are getting their lives together in all format and India at home Im still not as confident that they'll pull it off as I was the 50 over cup at home....and they did their level best to screw that up at times!

Easy to forget England won the T20 world cup 2010 but the real change did come with the change in leadership and direction and focus after the 2015 world cup. White ball had generally been second fiddle, and even the split captaincy had been seen as controversial and temporary when it was first bought in. Now the talk is of having entirely different coaching staff.

Took a while longer for Englands power to manifest itself in T20 because we have generally played weakened squads in the format till this year, but a squad largely the same as the 50 over world cup winners is unsurprisingly strong now its getting to play the format.

Whats nice to see is that we also have some proper test specialists coming through too, actual openers who justify a place through playing long innings. There has to be a worry on the demands of 3 format internationals and the T20 circuit and supporting domestic leagues, so the more out and out specialists the better.

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 17:52

The weird thing about that T20 win in 2010 was that England were genuinely ahead of their times in T20 terms! Had a couple of proper hitters at the top (albeit they found them last minute after the Lions smashed the first team) in Lumb and Kieswetter.

It was the beginning of Morgan’s career and he there playing reverse sweeps off seamers - there was one of Ravi Rampaul that was particular brilliant - that are common place now.

Then they had the left arm option which all teams are desperate for as well as being the first team to develop the slower ball into the pitch which everyone uses now.

They they just went back to being behind the times as soon as that tournament finished!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 00:38

JDizzle wrote:The weird thing about that T20 win in 2010 was that England were genuinely ahead of their times in T20 terms! Had a couple of proper hitters at the top (albeit they found them last minute after the Lions smashed the first team) in Lumb and Kieswetter.

It was the beginning of Morgan’s career and he there playing reverse sweeps off seamers - there was one of Ravi Rampaul that was particular brilliant - that are common place now.

Then they had the left arm option which all teams are desperate for as well as being the first team to develop the slower ball into the pitch which everyone uses now.

They they just went back to being behind the times as soon as that tournament finished!

Didn’t hurt that KP was in great form and Swann was at his peak right at that time (and had a very good tournament)
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 09:11

Thinking back more on this England did have a huge advantage at that time in that most of their team had been playing the format at domestic level for most of their careers, even if it was a side show they had far more experience than much of the opposition. IPL only got set up in 2008, and the format was hardly played at international level outside the cups.

England of course then ended up behind the game in terms of domestic development with the success of IPL and spread of franchises. Mixture of the ECB being held back by the county system, snobbery about the format, and falling for the Stamford scam.

Despite the win Flowers focus wasn't on white ball, and I guess that pressure party came form his bosses in the ECB ..ended up resigning the post 2 years later says a lot about how much England were playing with one hand behind their backs. There also was a level of selection snobbery going on there, and a feeling that if a player was good in one format they'd be good in all, and the white ball specialists looked down on in the dressing room coupled with guys like Morgan being pushed to become test players.

Impact of franchise cricket on Englands resurgence? Of the core 2015 onwards squad it was only Morgan who'd had real exposure to it ( I think not fact checked), so it certainly wasn't directly responsible for developing the abilities of the players. And Morgan had been awful for some time in white ball with most people wanting him dropped prior to that summer. Underlying that though it seems Morgans vision, which was shared by Bayliss (a BBL winning coach), of how to play and what was possible if the young batting talents were let loose must have come in part from his exposure to IPL. His returns under Giles had been awful, but its pretty clear that was down to him being unhappy in the team environment and under the playing directions they were given. Must be really difficult to captain a side to play a way you don't believe in. Dont think England suffered that much by not having a glitzy franchise T20 system in terms of developing this group of players, more so in through snobbery of the game, backwards looking coaches and the test focus. The players now certainly seem to think playing in those franchises is helping them to keep pushing forward and stay at the top, but its not where most of them where forged.

Worth noting that England are arguably ahead of the curve now with a silly 100 ball format franchise system. Im still hugely dubious about it and do feel again its only a thing at all because no-one dares challenge the county system but in theory they should be ahead of the curve in terms of exposing young players to what might be a viable international format in the future, and this time making sure they have the top international stars upping the quality (cough) and having the first global brand (that's the theory anyway).


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Post by dummy_half on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:10

The big change for England was (finally) realising that Test and ODI cricket had diverged, and there was no way that a side with Cook and Trott in the top 3 or Jimmy Anderson opening the bowling was going to challenge in a world of regular 300+ in 50 overs, never mind 180-220 in 20 overs. Also, that the solution was not the to pack the team with bits and pieces all rounders like Ravi Bopara (no offence meant, just the first example that came to mind), but to look for specialists who would do a specific job - the likes of Rashid and Plunkett in the middle overs, Hales and Roy at the top of the order and the mindset that even if there are a couple of wickets go early the batsmen keep going hard.

Still don't see the 100 as a required format - what does it achieve that 20 (conventional) over cricket doesn't? If you want to go radical, go for T10 with a 45 minute per innings time limit.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:45

Gooseberry wrote:
Impact of franchise cricket on Englands resurgence? Of the core 2015 onwards squad it was only Morgan who'd had real exposure to it ( I think not fact checked), so it certainly wasn't directly responsible for developing the abilities of the players. And Morgan had been awful for some time in white ball with most people wanting him dropped prior to that summer. Underlying that though it seems Morgans vision, which was shared by Bayliss (a BBL winning coach), of how to play and what was possible if the young batting talents were let loose must have come in part from his exposure to IPL. His returns under Giles had been awful, but its pretty clear that was down to him being unhappy in the team environment and under the playing directions they were given. Must be really difficult to captain a side to play a way you don't believe in. Dont think England suffered that much by not having a glitzy franchise T20 system in terms of developing this group of players, more so in through snobbery of the game, backwards looking coaches and the test focus. The players now certainly seem to think playing in those franchises is helping them to keep pushing forward and stay at the top, but its not where most of them where forged.

Worth noting that England are arguably ahead of the curve now with a silly 100 ball format franchise system. Im still hugely dubious about it and do feel again its only a thing at all because no-one dares challenge the county system  but in theory they should be ahead of the curve in terms of exposing young players to what might be a viable international format in the future, and this time making sure they have the top international stars upping the quality (cough) and having the first global brand (that's the theory anyway).

I think your point about franchise cricket is right for the ODI side who won the 2019 world cup Goose, but in terms of the current T20 side I think this article here points out how crucial things like the IPL are to both developing players (Archer/Currans/Jordan), but also for the likes of Buttler/Morgan and co to continue to hone their game - https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/30402376/south-africa-vs-england-1st-t20i-cape-town-victory-england-victory-ipl

While we can debate the format, and how they've gone about it, I do think some sort of specific franchise league is needed, and while the Hundred might not be the final format or right one, it's a start at least...
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:48

Also looking ahead, Will MacPhearson (generally spot on) reporting that a two test tour of Sri Lanka is to be confirmed next week for early next year, players flying out to SL on January 2nd. Foakes and Bairstow to be in that squad, along with Mark Wood. Archer to be rested, keen to manage his workload ahead of a packed schedule next year.
No signs Rashid will be selected, still considered a long shot along with Moeen. Matt Parkinson and Mason Crane have been training at Loughborough in recent weeks, with other "test only" players such as Broad, Anderson, Sibley etc etc. Could potentially make the squad if they impress.

And perhaps worryingly, Ollie Pope not expected to be selected. Shoulder is still not fit after second surgery on it in two years...they had hoped he would be fine for the winter tours, but Sri Lanka almost certainly a no go, and there are doubts he'll be ready for the India tour afterwards.
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:50

TBF on the bits and pieces players Stokes and Woakes were around the 2014 squads and seen as that.

Wasnt just freezing out of Anderson from white ball but also Broad, which was a bit more controversial as he'd been a key part of that 2010 win. Neither's egos liked it, but both also went through long term injury issues and patchy form through that time. The fact they are still delivering at test level now shows it was a very smart long term call by England regardless of whether they could've been effective in white ball or not.

The change in top order batting and attitude was the thing. Element of Giles being too close to some of his old test buddies? The one thing the likes of Roy have really spoken about from that change wasn't just that they were picking dynamic batsmen but that Bayliss/Morgan made it OK to fail so long as you were trying which apparently was different to what had gone before. It sounds like the environment KP would've thrived in, but its maybe good for them that he had already frozen himself out of contention and this younger group was allowed to come through without him. Maybe didn't work out quite so well trying to carry that to test batting, and we've seen the opposite (top 4 judged on balls faced not runs scored) thats helped England rebuild in that format.

It all seems so obvious in hindsight, but Trott was for a period pretty much the only person scoring runs in 50 over cricket. Finished with a career average of 51 in a side that often struggled to last 50 overs.

Having a look back at the 2010 world T20 also amused me to find that the successful top 3 came about as a result of ditching ...Joe Denly after the Lions thrashed the seniors. Years later to resurface as everyones least favourite test batsman and eternal nearly man of the white ball squads.

So the key to Englands success in all formats is keep dropping Denly.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:52


https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/england-cricket-news-bairstow-archer-sri-lanka-b115322.html

Article referenced above
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:57

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Impact of franchise cricket on Englands resurgence? Of the core 2015 onwards squad it was only Morgan who'd had real exposure to it ( I think not fact checked), so it certainly wasn't directly responsible for developing the abilities of the players. And Morgan had been awful for some time in white ball with most people wanting him dropped prior to that summer. Underlying that though it seems Morgans vision, which was shared by Bayliss (a BBL winning coach), of how to play and what was possible if the young batting talents were let loose must have come in part from his exposure to IPL. His returns under Giles had been awful, but its pretty clear that was down to him being unhappy in the team environment and under the playing directions they were given. Must be really difficult to captain a side to play a way you don't believe in. Dont think England suffered that much by not having a glitzy franchise T20 system in terms of developing this group of players, more so in through snobbery of the game, backwards looking coaches and the test focus. The players now certainly seem to think playing in those franchises is helping them to keep pushing forward and stay at the top, but its not where most of them where forged.

Worth noting that England are arguably ahead of the curve now with a silly 100 ball format franchise system. Im still hugely dubious about it and do feel again its only a thing at all because no-one dares challenge the county system  but in theory they should be ahead of the curve in terms of exposing young players to what might be a viable international format in the future, and this time making sure they have the top international stars upping the quality (cough) and having the first global brand (that's the theory anyway).

I think your point about franchise cricket is right for the ODI side  who won the 2019 world cup Goose, but in terms of the current T20 side I think this article here points out how crucial things like the IPL are to both developing players (Archer/Currans/Jordan), but also for the likes of Buttler/Morgan and co to continue to hone their game - https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/30402376/south-africa-vs-england-1st-t20i-cape-town-victory-england-victory-ipl

While we can debate the format, and how they've gone about it, I do think some sort of specific franchise league is needed, and while the Hundred might not be the final format or right one, it's a start at least...

Yep you're agreeing with me on both points there Olly. I would rather have seen a consolidation of the counties for all formats and more big name marquee contracts than the current D1 expansion and fudged 100.

The requirement for the 100 exists because the counties dont want to give up their main source of income and noone can challenge the existence of the county system when they effectively run the ECB. It could pan out that this has opened a chance to lead the global future of the game into a mass appeal game, but healthy dose of scepticism about that even if people never believed in IPL.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 12:03

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/cricket/england-cricket-news-bairstow-archer-sri-lanka-b115322.html

Article referenced above

Blimey. No shock on resting Archer, although I have no idea whos going to bowl for England. The article suggest Mo is an outside shot for tests, which leaves them with Bess, Leach who has barely played cricket of any format, then two young leggies. Broad diddnt see the point in him bowling there, and the other middling pacers will continue to have the same struggles they did last tour there. Wood who didnt get a test contract could be the biggest wicket taking threat in the squad!

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Post by dummy_half on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 14:08

Gooseberry wrote:TBF on the bits and pieces players Stokes and Woakes were around the 2014 squads and seen as that.

...

It all seems so obvious in hindsight, but Trott was for a period pretty much the only person scoring runs in 50 over cricket. Finished with a career average of 51 in a side that often struggled to last 50 overs.

...

I don't think even in 2014 you'd call Stokes or Woakes 'bits and pieces' - Stokes has always been a potentially destructive batsman who can bowl, and Woakes a quality bowler who can bat a bit. So at least their stronger suit justified their selection.

IIRC, Trott was averaging 50 and a strike rate of about 85-90, so was pretty competent despite the perception that he was quite limited. The problem was that having him there with Cook and with failures of the more flamboyant players meant England were playing 270 run cricket when everyone else was looking at 320 +. If he'd been around 10 years earlier, he'd have been an ODI superstar, but the game has moved away from technically good batsmen to good hitters.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 18:59

Yeah coupled with the advent of powerplays making hitting over the field more important and less risky. Trott was always going to be a placer rather than a hitter.

Stokes pre 2015 averaged 15.66 with the bat @75.8 in 24, 35.65 @ 6.2 with the ball ODI's and 12.2 @12.94 no wickets in 7 T20s

Anyway fuzzy definitions aside these players critisized for not being the best specialist bowlers / batsmen and getting selected because they had a secondary ability ( and shocking could field which has always been frowned upon as cheating by the purists). And certainly Stokes took a long time in international cricket to flourish, and was big part of that dark era after the T20 world cup and 2015 revolution.

I mioght have actually argued myself out of an earlier musing here. Maybe the current generation of stars didnt learn from the domestic T20 competition, but learnt from having early exposure on the international circuit when the big tests stars were too busy to bother with it.


Anyway this winter ... Im worried about the test team. Noones going to want to be stuck in that Sri Lanka bubble for weeks just to play cr@p opposition on cr@p wickets with no glory just criticism and a very dodgy bowling pool.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 15:38

One more T20 to go. South Africa batting again, though this time they won the toss. Home side are resting Rabada, which increases the advantage for an unchanged England team. Wood remains the best drinks-carrier in the world.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 16:47

Sounds like Rabada is injured
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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 16:49

Would be odd to rest him given they were already struggling to square teams and the transformation targets

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 17:02

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Sounds like Rabada is injured

Out of the ODI series too, tough blow for South Africa.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 17:30

Not been a good series for Turran - clearly should be behind Jordan in the pecking order now
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 17:36

Destructive innings from van der Dussen, gives England's top six a proper test.

192 to get.

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Post by alfie on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:13

This would be a good time for Jason Roy to recover some form...but alas not to be as he's pinned in front by Nortje , after hitting some good shots. 25/1 in the fourth as The Form Man , Malan comes in...

192 not out of the question for this lot ; but will need one or two of them to have a day out. Someone will need to take down the spinners today.


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Post by Duty281 on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:28

Advantage England after the PowerPlay. Didn't expect much from Roy, so anything he got was a bonus. Malan making a proper blistering start for once, and a good use of DRS kept him out there.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:41

Huge error from de Kock in gathering the ball scuppered an easy run-out chance against Malan.

Might have been undone by some unexpected bounce or pace? Might have decided the game...

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Post by alfie on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:44

A bit of luck for Malan there...run out by yards but de Kock didn't have control of the ball when he took the bails off. Welcome break as Malan has been on fire from his first ball today.

Decent first ten for England at 85/1 , as Linde is done now and Shamsi only two left.

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Post by alfie on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:48

SA missing Rabada...replacement Sipamla is giving Buttler six hitting practice...
Hundred up.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:52

Can't agree with bowling Sipamla when a wicket was sorely needed for the hosts.

Buttler now moves from 23 off 24 to 42 off 29.

Saffers need a batting collapse to win from here...as Buttler crunches another six.

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