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Italy v Scotland Autumn nations Cup Saturday 14th November 2020

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Post by BigGee on Tue 10 Nov 2020, 1:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Italy v Scotland
Autumn Nations Cup

Stadio Artemio Franchi
Florence
Italy

Saturday 14th November 2020
KO 12.45

Live on Amazon Prime


There is a very rarely documented medical condition where visitors to Florence, on stepping off the train, gaze around and go wow, or words to that effect, then promptly drop dead. Post Mortem reveals no obvious cause of death and the assumption is that they were simply overwhelmed by the beauty of Florence.

Hopefully the Scotland team won't be visiting the sites and wonders of this amazing city prior to the match and they can concentrate on dealing with the less overwhelming beauty of the Italian team in front of them. No messing about know, wheras in the 6n we were cagey and badly in need of a result, this time, we are a confident team who need a performance as much as a result, following our ground out win, important as it was to the development of this team, down in Wales.

We also need to show that we can rotate our squad around a bit and still pack a punch and this is likely to be the game to do that in, seeing as a few of our stars might be in need of a rest. Injury is going to play a part in seeing who is picked as well, with both our front line FHs missing for this one, which surely means that Duncan Weir is the most nailed on selection in the squad. He has been a bit of a talisman against Italy in the past, winning a game we did not deserve to with an outrageous drop goal a few years back.

Italy, always looking for something to prove though and are always game, though they, as Scotland did before them, struggle to play a full 80 minutes at this level without tiring badly and ending up with a loopsided score board at the end of the game. They are bringing some new players through though and the clubs continue to improve. There day will hopefully come, only please not this saturday!

I fancy we will see a much changed Scotland team this time, with a strong bench.

My guess at the team:

1. Keeble - two good cameos off the bench, surely deserves a start and Sutherland maybe needs a rest
2. Mcinally - looked hungry against Wales and Brown had a poor game
3. Berghan - slowly moving into the back up TH role
4. Skinner
5. Toolis
6. Ritchie
7. Cowan
8. Fagerson M - if fit, Thompson if not
9. Horne G - deserves a start
10. Weir - We are all looking forward to seeing that hair
11. VDM
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Maitland - Graham gets a rest
15. Jones H

Subs:

Bhatti
Turner
Fagerson Z
Gray J
Du Preez - has played well in his cameos
SHC
Lang - FH cover
Hogg/Kinghorn - which will allow Jones to move to 13 at some point in the second half



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Post by Mcsweens on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:38 pm

If anything I thought they might have changed lanes in the maul, but I'll take it

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:38 pm

Generous interpretation of a blood injury by the dr.

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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:38 pm

Try given

28-17 and a BP

That should be the game

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:41 pm

Well one thing is for sure, we'll have to be a lot better than this against France and Fiji!
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Post by jimbopip on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:41 pm

I'm following it on Radio Scotland; how has Meatball fared? Any chance of ratings for the team? Thanks lads kiss

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:42 pm

Credit where it's due though, Italy really surprised me with how well they've played. Bit more composure in the later stages and they'd have won for sure.
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Post by tigertattie on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:43 pm

Well that was a bit of a dour performance

They do say though that good teams manage to win without playing well
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Post by Mcsweens on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:43 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Well one thing is for sure, we'll have to be a lot better than this against France and Fiji!

Evergreen sentiment

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Post by Mcsweens on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:45 pm

jimbopip wrote:I'm following it on Radio Scotland; how has Meatball fared? Any chance of ratings for the team? Thanks lads kiss

Meatball was just fine - he got melted in the tackle once or twice, but distributed well and took his disallowed try well.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:46 pm

Mcsweens wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:Well one thing is for sure, we'll have to be a lot better than this against France and Fiji!

Evergreen sentiment

Still more insightful punditry than the prime team!
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:46 pm

Mixed bag for meatball, some of his play with ball in hand and his pass selection was really slick. Some of his defence was really bad. Overall more positive than negative I’d say, definite pass marks

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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:49 pm

Don't underestimate how well Italy played for a good part of that game

We scored 4 tries and ground out a decent win first game of the tournament. Can't ask for much more than that.

We look like a confident side now, never panicked even when we were behind and getting done over

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:51 pm

jimbopip wrote:I'm following it on Radio Scotland; how has Meatball fared? Any chance of ratings for the team? Thanks lads kiss

Tattie summed it up well, pretty mediocre at best.

Meatball was okay although a few bumped off tackles, needs to work on his defence.

Hogg wasn't at his best.

VdM got MoM although was more because he was our only attacking threat other than the maul.

Turner has probably earned himself a place in the next 23 even if Brown is back.

I thought gray, foot in touch aside, did quite well. Looks like an improved player and has a bit more saviness to his game. Little things like presenting then picking up the ball to charge on a bit further and a bit more bite in attack that you wouldn't really have seen a few months back.


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Post by Mcsweens on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:52 pm

I thought Hoggs decision making was vindicated too - he turned down an easy pen once or twice and we scored tries from the lineout more often than not.

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Post by TJ on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:53 pm

Heaf wrote:Italy maybe a bit unlucky - all came from a knock-on call from a line out that looked like it had been knocked back by Johnny Gray unless I missed something?

the italian had his hands on it as well and both hands. No clear knock back from Scotland so knock on given.

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Post by TJ on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:54 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Mixed bag for meatball, some of his play with ball in hand and his pass selection was really slick. Some of his defence was really bad. Overall more positive than negative I’d say, definite

pass marks

work rate huge as well.

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Post by TJ on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:55 pm

Mcsweens wrote:I thought Hoggs decision making was vindicated too - he turned down an easy pen once or twice and we scored tries from the lineout more often than not.

couple of poor counterattacks. Decent game thos

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:55 pm

If Italy ever manage to produce an 80min team they will rack up a few wins every year.
Turner did more in his cameo than McInally did the rest of the game. Would like to see him start next game and give us some of the missing aggression after losing Ritchie and Sutherland. We are relying on Faegerson and Watson to Provide our go forward.
Sutherland looks to be out for a while too.

Our winger should not be the best ball carrier in the team.

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Post by jimbopip on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:55 pm

Thanks guys thumbsup

Highlights programme on C4 late tomorrow evening.

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Post by bsando on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 2:55 pm

Yeah and his kicking was perfect. He pulled it back after the miss tackle in the first half. The creativity was missing but he did a few nice steps and inside passes.

Great start! Glad that was a tough game and not walkover, good prep for France next weekend. That will be a much better indicator of how Scotland are doing. They're the form NH side at the moment and will wan to avenge that loss earlier in the year.

I love the strength in depth Scotland have now. Kebble replacing Sutherland early on resulted in a strong game from him, Nel came on and won a penalty at scrum time and helped Turner over the line in that team maul. Turner himself came on and played very well. They look like a unit and Hogg is turning out to be the captain Scotland have really needed. He's not performing amazingly in attack but he has been a really good leader. I'm really enjoying the gnarl and ambition this team have.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:00 pm

Agreed on his leadership, would like to see him pulling people in again rather than running it himself next game. Although it's been a while since he's had a poor game so it's only natural he'll have one, it didn't change the outcome thankfully but it might against higher ranked teams who will isolate him.

Italy didn't make it easy though. Still streets ahead of Georgia I think. Italy Fiji is going to be an absolute belter.


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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:01 pm

I would be surprised if we see Sutherland sgain this tournament

Keeble will start now and Bhatti to bench. They will bring another LH into the squad as well, Allen or Dell you would imagine. Allen more likely as Dell not been playing


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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:02 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Agreed on his leadership, would like to see him pulling people in again rather than running it himself next game. Although it's been a while since he's had a poor game so it's only natural he'll have one. Italy didn't make it easy. Still streets ahead of Georgia I think. Italy Fiji is going to be an absolute belter.

Assuming it happens. They will also be seriously undercooked as it could be their first gsme if next week's gets cancelled as well

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:05 pm

BigGee wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:Agreed on his leadership, would like to see him pulling people in again rather than running it himself next game. Although it's been a while since he's had a poor game so it's only natural he'll have one. Italy didn't make it easy. Still streets ahead of Georgia I think. Italy Fiji is going to be an absolute belter.

Assuming it happens. They will also be seriously undercooked as it could be their first gsme if next week's gets cancelled as well

I imagine stern Vern will have them on the straight and narrow. They could come out all guns blazing. Time together doesn't matter when you play like the barbarians!
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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:06 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
BigGee wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:Agreed on his leadership, would like to see him pulling people in again rather than running it himself next game. Although it's been a while since he's had a poor game so it's only natural he'll have one. Italy didn't make it easy. Still streets ahead of Georgia I think. Italy Fiji is going to be an absolute belter.

Assuming it happens. They will also be seriously undercooked as it could be their first gsme if next week's gets cancelled as well

I imagine stern Vern will have them on the straight and narrow. They could come out all guns blazing. Time together doesn't matter when you play like the barbarians!

As long as they don't party like the Barbarians!

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:08 pm

BigGee wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
BigGee wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:Agreed on his leadership, would like to see him pulling people in again rather than running it himself next game. Although it's been a while since he's had a poor game so it's only natural he'll have one. Italy didn't make it easy. Still streets ahead of Georgia I think. Italy Fiji is going to be an absolute belter.

Assuming it happens. They will also be seriously undercooked as it could be their first gsme if next week's gets cancelled as well

I imagine stern Vern will have them on the straight and narrow. They could come out all guns blazing. Time together doesn't matter when you play like the barbarians!

As long as they don't party like the Barbarians!
😂
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Post by Heaf on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:09 pm

TJ wrote:
Heaf wrote:Italy maybe a bit unlucky - all came from a knock-on call from a line out that looked like it had been knocked back by Johnny Gray unless I missed something?

the italian had his hands on it as well and both hands.  No clear knock back from Scotland so knock on given.  

OK maybe - but looked to me more like a nice steal by Johnny 'stripping' the ball by getting his hand on the ball between the Italian players hands and pulling it back towards his own line. Either way congrats to Scotland on the win as I think Italy played better than many of us expected.

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Post by TJ on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:23 pm

Heaf - it could have gone either way like in a tackle - was it a strip or a knock on?

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Post by Heaf on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 3:27 pm

thumbsup

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Post by RDW on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 8:52 pm

Sounds like Italy had their best performance in a while and we were able to stand up and find a way to win, despite not playing well.

I'll take that, and looking forward to watching the game.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 9:08 pm

RDW wrote:Sounds like Italy had their best performance in a while and we were able to stand up and find a way to win, despite not playing well.

I'll take that, and looking forward to watching the game.

It was still quite a good game to watch despite our middling performance. Italy really took it by the scruff for about 60-65 minutes and were by far the more exciting team. It's good to see them click after a frustrating few years, the 6Ns is always better with a stronger Italy.
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Post by RDW on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 9:18 pm

Anyone know why my Prime doesn't appear to think this game even exists? Can't find it anywhere

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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 9:24 pm

I think Prime only have the rights in the UK

It is on diffetent channels in Ireland and i think elsewhere

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Post by RDW on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 9:29 pm

Ah yes it's on BEin sports here, who aren't good at being able to re watch games. Crying or Very sad

Although apparently they don't have Italy home matches...! No idea where to find it then.

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Post by RDW on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 9:53 pm

My brother wasn't impressed with Prime's coverage - sounds like this was a side show to the much anticipated England v Georgia game...?

I've managed to find it on YouTube!

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 10:22 pm

Well I've just watched the game. I thought Italy threw the kitchen sink at us and we did ok. We looked confident of the win throughout the game, even when trailing, and managed the second half really well.

A couple of observations:

- the midfield isn't quite right. Harris had one of his best games, but him and Johnson together lacks potency. Weir did everything asked of him today, but the midfield balance needs addressing.

- Kebble was excellent, and our loosehead options suddenly look very healthy (with Schoeman to qualify next year). He was abrasive, carried well and shored up the scrum.

- Cummings is the business. As is Duhan. Both should win a bunch of caps.

- the back row needs a workhorse at 6 to bring out the best in Watson. Haining and Thomson didn't work. We need to give thought to Fagerson, Crosbie or Miller backing up Ritchie. I don't think Haining has the discipline for international rugby, and if he's to play, it should be at 8.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 10:24 pm

Prime was OK. I like the options for full replay, short highlight and extended highlights, and panel of games is nicely set out. Yes, the Scotland game was clearly given second billing, but having put up with John Inverdale ruining BBC coverage for what feels like decades, im used to it!

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Post by BigGee on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 10:44 pm

Haining got subbed for Skinner i think, having come on as a sub himself, which is quite unusual and might give some clues to Toonie's thought process.

It also shows why he likes Skinner on the bench covering second and back row.

Both Gray and Cummings can both go 80 mins no bother at all. Both have tremendous engines.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 10:44 pm

Have not seen the game, but who ever is in charge of prime tv, will surely be better than John Inverdale,

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Post by RDW on Sat 14 Nov 2020, 11:38 pm

Well it's certainly a different experience not watching these games live - you don't get the excitement and tension, but it does mean you can watch it fairly objectively.

I agree with FES - that was Italy's best performance in a long time, they threw everything at us, but we actually handled it well in the end without playing overly well. We were pretty well in control of things in the 2nd half and was pleasing to see us taking our opportunities in the 22 - that has been a problem of late. Going to need a big step up against the French.

Player ratings:

Kebble - 7

Sutherland injured early. Kebble put in a really physical performance, solid scrum and dominant in the loose.

Mcinally - 6

Good lineout but not a standout elsewhere, and missed several tackles. Still doesn't look fit!

Fagerson - 6.5

Quiter than recent performances but solid enough.

Gray - 7.5

Really good performance - strong in the lineout and plenty work rate. Made a few carries too.

Cummings - 8

My MOTM - his carrying is excellent and gives us real go forwards. An all action display and building up quite a reputation now - hopefully Gatland was watching.

Haining - 6

Ritchie off early. Haining didn't really stand out and can see his place being under threat

Watson - 7

Again not as dominant as we're used to but got a key turnover

Thomson - 6.5

Was involved a lot but still not convinced he's the long term solution

Price - 6.5

Good box kicking and scrambled well in defence. Looked tired before he went off

Weir - 6.5

Solid all round performance - shame he didn't get a try!

VDM - 7

Our most dangers player, in fact our only really attacking threat!

Johnson - 6.5

A couple of good runs and solid enough

Harris - 7.5

I thought he played well with an all action display.

Graham - 6

Looks like he took a knock early on and struggled to get involved

Hogg - 6

Quiet game from the captain

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Post by RDW on Sun 15 Nov 2020, 12:22 am

Worth saying from am Italy POV that was really encouraging and something to build on. They couldn't sustain it for 60 minutes though never mind 80, and still lack the killer edge.

It's a young team but promising signs. They really need to beat Fiji and Georgia though to show they're worthy of their 6N place.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 15 Nov 2020, 8:04 am

Georgia have played Scotland and England now and tsken a heavy beating in both games, they are a long was off 6N ready and i imagine Italy will best them comfortably on that showing.

They will need a lot more exposure if they are ever going to get up to speed.

Thry may well have played Itsly in the plauoffd in this tournament but maybe not now Fiji are dropping out of fixtures

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Italy v Scotland Autumn nations Cup Saturday 14th November 2020 - Page 3 Empty Re: Italy v Scotland Autumn nations Cup Saturday 14th November 2020

Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 15 Nov 2020, 8:30 am

Yeah I don't think Georgia are threatening Italy's position anytime soon. To be honest they may even have enough to shock Wales if they keep their composure if that ends up being the play off.

Agree with FES on the centre balance. It's just a bit naff at the moment. Harris had a good performance in the same way Graeme Morrison did, solid but not exactly setting the heather alight. Johnson looked devoid of ideas. I get part of their job is to straighten the line but would be nice to see more distribution. I think it's time Toonie called up Bennett, who has a great all-round game and offers a bit more pazazz in attack. Or he just acknowledges Huw Jones' existence and actually plays him, with Harris ready to calm the ship from the bench if required.

Hopefully Kebble can hold himself together otherwise we're going to be dipping into the reserves a bit in the front row! I think Nel had a very tidy appearance. Did what was asked of him and was much needed stability to give that reassurance that the game was ours to win. Turner should start or at least be on the bench. Even if FB is back. I think that was one of his best showings in a Scotland jersey.

I also think SHC looked better than price in the short time he was on. Price was very eh that game. It's a shame Horne is injured but if we want a game managing SH I'd pick SHC over Price.

I hope Fagerson is fit, Thomson just looks very underpowered. Maybe worth calling up Maggie too. I'd like to see a Skinner, Watson, Fagerson back row assuming Ritchie won't be playing.
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Italy v Scotland Autumn nations Cup Saturday 14th November 2020 - Page 3 Empty Re: Italy v Scotland Autumn nations Cup Saturday 14th November 2020

Post by Hazel Sapling on Sun 15 Nov 2020, 7:41 pm

I missed the first 20 but heard the scrum took a battering before we put on Kebble and Haining. Haining in particular would have added weight over Ritchie (17kgs by listed though that seems a bit high).

Thomson with Ritchie and Watson was underpowered against the Italians and that is something that will have to be considered against France. If Ritchie is out, I would like to see how Skinner fits in with Watson and Thomson. He has the size and the form, whilst Haining is struggling a bit with discipline. Wouldn't mind seeing CDP or M Fagerson on the bench.

Credit to the Italians for putting in a real contest for 60 minutes. At the same time, they are the best of Tier 2 or the gatekeeper to Tier 1. Scotland did not play particularly well, lost two starters from the pack in the first 20 minutes and were missing the star fly halves. The Italians have some talented young players in Minozzi, Polledri, Brady/Varney, Fischetti (the LH) and Gabrielsi (the 10) but they are still short of having a competitive 15 who can win that first hour somewhat regularly against the other Tier 1 sides.

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