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Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 15 Nov 2020, 10:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

The new season starts next weekend. What are people's hopes and expectations?

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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:12 pm

Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

Ugo made a good point in yesterday’s commentary - we complain about the cards when we make the changes for safety, but give it a season or so and teams have adapted. The cards stop flowing and players are safer. I’m prepared to put up with a few games disrupted by cards to reduce the risk to players.
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Post by Poorfour Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:38 pm

Meanwhile, Exeter are looking very stodgy against Northampton. Saints’ defence has been excellent, and conditions are horrendous but with 70 minutes gone Exeter haven’t been able to turn the screw like they usually do.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:42 pm

Chiefs 7 =- Saints 13 with 5 minutes to go....................................holy moly
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:45 pm

Chiefs score in the corner 12 -13
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:48 pm

Strange one, never seen it in pro rugby

"Simmonds begins his run up and Saints charge forwards, Sleightholme knocks the ball off the tee into touch and the referee blows the full-time whistle!"

Saints winners if in a very strange way.
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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:50 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

Ugo made a good point in yesterday’s commentary - we complain about the cards when we make the changes for safety, but give it a season or so and teams have adapted. The cards stop flowing and players are safer. I’m prepared to put up with a few games disrupted by cards to reduce the risk to players.

I don't have a problem with reds coming out for intentional contact to an opponent's head. But players are being sent off for accidental strikes to the head, and penalised for accidental high tackles. It'll be tough to curb accidental actions through over-zealous officiating.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:51 pm

Amazing mud bowl win. Completely shocked, but think all the Devon mud, and I think all the mud in Devon was in sandy Park, helped Saints a lot. Now, maybe, just maybe, Saints have something going.

Now, let's not get ahead of ourselves and hammer Bath next week.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 20 Feb 2021, 4:51 pm

Furbank played at 10 today, I would be interested to know how he played. He has all the attributes to play there and it could be his strongest position.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

The first two red cards in the Tigers Vs Wasps game were spot on. The third was a farce. Winger jumps from the blindside of a flanker who is trying to get under a kick off. Flanker isn't moving quickly. Winger actually connects with his knee to the face of the flanker but the flanker is sent off because the winger end up face planting. Ridiculous.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:10 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

The first two red cards in the Tigers Vs Wasps game were spot on. The third was a farce. Winger jumps from the blindside of a flanker who is trying to get under a kick off. Flanker isn't moving quickly. Winger actually connects with his knee to the face of the flanker but the flanker is sent off because the winger end up face planting. Ridiculous.

I disagree. The flanker had no realistic chance of getting to the ball and should have known that. It’s unfortunate that he was injured, but if the winger hadn’t managed to get his arms down he could have been seriously injured. it’s been established since the Paine / Goode incident years ago that if you’re running into a space where someone might be leaping for the ball, you have to think about the danger you might be putting them in.
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Post by Poorfour Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:10 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

The first two red cards in the Tigers Vs Wasps game were spot on. The third was a farce. Winger jumps from the blindside of a flanker who is trying to get under a kick off. Flanker isn't moving quickly. Winger actually connects with his knee to the face of the flanker but the flanker is sent off because the winger end up face planting. Ridiculous.

I disagree. The flanker had no realistic chance of getting to the ball and should have known that. It’s unfortunate that he was injured, but if the winger hadn’t managed to get his arms down he could have been seriously injured. it’s been established since the Paine / Goode incident years ago that if you’re running into a space where someone might be leaping for the ball, you have to think about the danger you might be putting them in.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:23 pm

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

The first two red cards in the Tigers Vs Wasps game were spot on. The third was a farce. Winger jumps from the blindside of a flanker who is trying to get under a kick off. Flanker isn't moving quickly. Winger actually connects with his knee to the face of the flanker but the flanker is sent off because the winger end up face planting. Ridiculous.

I disagree. The flanker had no realistic chance of getting to the ball and should have known that. It’s unfortunate that he was injured, but if the winger hadn’t managed to get his arms down he could have been seriously injured. it’s been established since the Paine / Goode incident years ago that if you’re running into a space where someone might be leaping for the ball, you have to think about the danger you might be putting them in.

No realistic chance he was underneath where it was going to land? The winger gets there first because he's airborne but the flanker can't see that until the last second. He's also not running he's shuffling backwards. I'd have liked to see that mitigated down to yellow because it's frankly an accident. The other reds are different because they are at best reckless, Liebenburg's really wasn't.

Payne's was very different as he was sprinting forward and doesn't look in front of him to what he's charging into. How many forwards do you see shuffling backward to take a kick off eyes on the ball? Every kick off, not an unusual movement. The winger chooses to put himself in harm's way (that used to be when I played, even if I wasn't the winger I'd be shuffled across to chase, you jump from the blindside of the forward you can't expect them to see you).

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:25 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Furbank played at 10 today, I would be interested to know how he played. He has all the attributes to play there and it could be his strongest position.
You missed this mud bath to glory?  OK, I missed a lot of it at work, too.  Though I did make the poor ignorant members of the great unwashed in hospital put the match on so I was able to listen to snippets as opposed to actually watching.  

According to texts from my old man:  
Furbank did fine at 10.  
Harry looked real good in his comeback.  
Matavesi was terrific as was the whole pack - best pack performance of the season.  How's that for a surprise?  
Sleightholme played great, matched his dad's level and maybe more, and made the play of the game at the end.

The match was played with a horrendous wind and the pitch was mud, with a little grass added for colour.  And dad might have been drinking, so I suppose it's hard to say.  Need to watch the replay to really know.  Not sure if you know how the match ended, which was very unusual after Exe scored their 2nd try as time expired.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:35 pm

Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

IN 26 MINUTES!

What would it have been if he'd not got himself sent off?

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:55 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

IN 26 MINUTES!

What would it have been if he'd not got himself sent off?
If he was playing for Leicester, he probably would have gotten a red card. Run

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:20 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

IN 26 MINUTES!

What would it have been if he'd not got himself sent off?
If he was playing for Leicester, he probably would have gotten a red card. Run

He was and he did  Headscratch

A lot of backs would be happy with those stats after a full 80 though

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:24 pm

That's a strange end to the exeter game. Looked an early charge to me but would need the wider view to be certain.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:37 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

IN 26 MINUTES!

What would it have been if he'd not got himself sent off?
If he was playing for Leicester, he probably would have gotten a red card. Run

He was and he did  Headscratch

A lot of backs would be happy with those stats after a full 80 though
Oh. good point. red card someone else.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a strange end to the exeter game. Looked an early charge to me but would need the wider view to be certain.
There were no replays at the end of the match so hard to tell. I think it was OK but would want to see again. The referee was 100% sure. It was a very hard kick from out wide and with that wind and poor footing....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:44 pm

Hard kick for sure. The players were shouting that he moved though as well....which would mean reset I think and no charge down attempt allowed. Just an interesting thing you dont see many times.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:00 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

IN 26 MINUTES!

What would it have been if he'd not got himself sent off?
If he was playing for Leicester, he probably would have gotten a red card. Run

He was and he did  Headscratch

A lot of backs would be happy with those stats after a full 80 though
Oh.  good point.  red card someone else.

The ref did that as well...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:15 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a strange end to the exeter game. Looked an early charge to me but would need the wider view to be certain.
There were no replays at the end of the match so hard to tell.  I think it was OK but would want to see again.  The referee was 100% sure.  It was a very hard kick from out wide and with that wind and poor footing....

Baxter's view;

"Sometimes you go 'maybe we don't deserve to win this game' and that's probably what happened at the end.

"We had our opportunities, we had 5m pressure that we would normally come away with more than we did but credit to Northampton, they repelled us a few times.

"From what I've been told, I think Joe moved so I don't have any complaints. They charged and that's what you are allowed to do. We complain about what we got wrong ourselves."

That's a classy response from what sounds a controversial incident. I'll wait for the highlights. Good win for the Saints.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:37 pm

Are the Refs being paid per red card. It's ridiculous.

As for the charge down what was the ref thinking?

That lad needs some more matches to ref at a lower level, I suggest he is assigned to Glaws games only.
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Post by king_carlos Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:54 pm

A strange scrappy Tigers vs Wasps game but I'll take the win. Excellent to see the lineout working cleverly under Borthwick.

Montoya is a hell of a player and signing. I actually think he still looks to be carrying a bit of excess timber but is so good he's still making a massive impact.

On the reds I thought all three were the correct decision with Wiese the worst offender and likely coping a decent ban. He has recent history with idiotic clear outs as well. A fantastic player who has turned Tigers pack around in many ways with that aggression but improving discipline at the minute will be the thing standing between him being an outstanding Premiership player and potentially challenging for a Boks shirt when Vermuelen retires.

Brookes looked a touch unfortunate in real time with Lavanini dropping into the tackle but his arm is tucked and it's contact with the head which makes it an easy decision. I can understand players struggling to bring the contact height down with mitigating factors such as the tackled player dropping to ground but the number of players leading with that tucked arm still is staggering. Really dumb play by a lot of players in recent weeks in that regard.

Liebenberg is an easy decision as aerial challenges have been reffed for about 5 years. He takes Bassett out in the air and he lands on his head. Similar to the clamp down on dangerous clear outs now there was a clamp down on aerial challenges a few years ago as we were getting dangerous collisions and injuries. At the time there were lots of complaints about cards being dished out but fast forward a few years, collisions like that Liebenberg one rarely happen and the game's safer for it. The correct decision back then to try to clean up that kick chase contest and the right decision today for Liebenberg to get sent off.

A few injury and unavailability worries for Tigers. We will likely lose Wiese and Liebenberg to bans on top of Genge, Martin, Youngs and Ford with England. Wigglesworth looked really uncomfortable grasping his wrist before going off as well.

Hopefully a chance for young guys like Cam Henderson, Thom Smith and Jack van Poortvliet to get game time.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:15 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Oh good, another red, after an analysis with multiple slow-motion replays of the incident.

This sport's becoming such a joke nowadays.

The first two red cards in the Tigers Vs Wasps game were spot on. The third was a farce. Winger jumps from the blindside of a flanker who is trying to get under a kick off. Flanker isn't moving quickly. Winger actually connects with his knee to the face of the flanker but the flanker is sent off because the winger end up face planting. Ridiculous.

Haven't seen the third, but I agree the first two were spot on in terms of how the laws/directives currently work. My issue is with those very laws/directives which, in my view, are too often punishing players unfairly for accidental actions.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:23 pm

king_carlos wrote:Brookes looked a touch unfortunate in real time with Lavanini dropping into the tackle

I never have sympathy for anybody who goes upright into a tackle. Don't bend and you are always liable to catch someone high. You go low no problem. Going high with force is dangerous, tucking your arm is a shoulder charge cheap shot and not a tackle. For me it's the same was Weise but at lower speed. It should be a fairly significant ban though I'm not sure on his priors so might no serve much (he did take out a referee a few years back though and cop a ban for that).

Agree we're going to have to rotate a bit. I suspect that Wells with go to the blindside and Brink to 8 for next week. Henderson likely to come onto the bench with either Wallace or Chessum. Reffell to slot in at 7. Will be tough losing our two best players.

I suppose my annoyance with Liebenburg's red was that it was accidental. Steward was intentionally tackled in the air Vs Sale and by luck he lands on his back and just a penalty. Liebenburg has no intention of taking out Bassett, Bassett lands badly (thankfully not injured) and it's red. The law was enforced the way it was to make the game safer but accidents happen and he'll now cop at least a two week ban on the back of it. 

Borthwick not happy with the Wasps players and their demanding of cards and asking for TMO reviews during the game (happened on I think three occasions with the ref obliging on a couple of occasions at least one led to nothing). Bit of a dig maybe at the Wasps coaches in that he says he coaches his team not to do that.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard kick for sure. The players were shouting that he moved though as well....which would mean reset I think and no charge down attempt allowed. Just an interesting thing you dont see many times.

Yeah, the laws are clear that the opposing team must not shout during a conversion attempt. If they do I believe the sanction is a retaken kick and that, on the retake, the opposing team are not allowed to charge.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:04 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a strange end to the exeter game. Looked an early charge to me but would need the wider view to be certain.
There were no replays at the end of the match so hard to tell.  I think it was OK but would want to see again.  The referee was 100% sure.  It was a very hard kick from out wide and with that wind and poor footing....

Baxter's view;

"Sometimes you go 'maybe we don't deserve to win this game' and that's probably what happened at the end.

"We had our opportunities, we had 5m pressure that we would normally come away with more than we did but credit to Northampton, they repelled us a few times.

"From what I've been told, I think Joe moved so I don't have any complaints. They charged and that's what you are allowed to do. We complain about what we got wrong ourselves."

That's a classy response from what sounds a controversial incident. I'll wait for the highlights. Good win for the Saints.
Now I had a chance to watch Exe-Saints from start to finish without my dad's texts coming over every few minutes - most inconvenient when i have my hands in some poor guys abdomen.

Saints had almost no possession and no territory. Exe made 90/100 tackles and Saints made an incredible 200/234. Saints barely had the ball, and I reckon on a dry pitch, Exe would have done better. The pitch was muddy below Premiership standard, in my opinion. Saints did play inspired and incredible defence. This was helped by Exe showing very little creativity, their strategy seemed to be to run straight into Ribbans (16 tackles), Matavesi (22), Isiekwe (22), Adendorff (20), Waller (18), Ludlam (20) and even Francis (16). And when Wood came on for his cameo, he registered 7. So most of the game was channel 1 by Exe which Saints di do an incredible job defending. It is virtually impossible to evaluate Saints players, because Saints rarely had the ball. They did play inspired and tough as nails defence most of the match. Mitchell was sometimes good and sometime slow and inaccurate. Furby was OK but really didn't have much opportunity to show what he can do. All the defenders I mentioned above were very good on defence, but showed little on attack. Sleightholme was pretty goo all around, and won the match at the death. Prince Harry fit right in as if he was never away. This is very good. Best I can do at the moment. Hope it helps.

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Post by rosbif Sun 21 Feb 2021, 8:01 am

I think if Exeter had kicked for goal they would have won by a lot but the pitch is bad you can't barge over from 5m as you just slide. Te only bright action was a lovely run from Josh Hodge , I hope he gets more game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 21 Feb 2021, 8:21 am

Seen a wider angle he does move forward so it's only the shouting that would mean anything. If it came from those charging then reset. You have to assume the ref got that bit right.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 21 Feb 2021, 11:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seen a wider angle he does move forward so it's only the shouting that would mean anything. If it came from those charging then reset. You have to assume the ref got that bit right.
It was a little hard to tell on the original tv angles.  But I think we can know the ref got it right because most of the Exeter players did not argue.  If they thought it was a bad call they would have gone ballistic, especially after such a close match.  Only a couple were surprised but the rest  seemed (on tv anyway) to understand.  And it was more than one Saint who charged, so it was a few players who thought Simmonds moved.  By the way, I feel bad for Simmonds:  It was a difficult kick under poor conditions, so a low percentage for anyone.  But this might make him one step further from the England squad.

The problem with Saints was they once again gave up a late score which could have lost the match for them.  This was their Modus Operandi for most of 2020, that is, if they actually had a lead.  So for me, I am not feeling like this game was much progress.  In most matches last year they played well for 60 minutes.  Yesterday, they played well, considering the conditions, for 75 minutes, then reverted to 2020 in the last 5.  Maybe that is progress?

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Post by Poorfour Sun 21 Feb 2021, 12:30 pm

Simmonds was a fair way back, so the ref had plenty of time to whistle if he thought they’d gone early (and was clear to the Exeter players afterwards that he thought they hadn’t). Simmonds also had plenty of time to take the kick, but froze and let Saints come and kick it off the tee.

I thought it was actually quite a fitting end to a game in which Exeter were so out of sorts.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:05 pm

Should have been a red for Bears 12.
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Post by TightHEAD Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:07 pm

@StuartHooper watch London Irish. They are better than Bath
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Post by Duty281 Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:08 pm

That was the clearest red of the weekend! Not given.

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:16 pm

He's just playing to the rules that you shall not red card a player when playing against LI - that's the 2nd clear red this season not given - the first one when we were playing Sale wasn't even given as a pen - just a 'rugby incident' that was worse than the one a LI player got red carded for last week.

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:28 pm

No idea what's gone wrong with the line-out - absolute horror show. Get Creevy on now.

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:38 pm

This is the worst LI have played for a while - not sure if the red card had been correctly given it would have made much difference on this showing.

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Post by Maine man Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:42 pm

How's Paddy Jackson been playing this season?

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:45 pm

Last few games he seems to have been going well but it's all gone pear-shaped again across the whole team today

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 3:54 pm

So from the half time summary it seems the only ones that didn't think that was a red card was the ref and the TMO - and in Austin's words the ref bottled it.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 21 Feb 2021, 4:05 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Should have been a red for Bears 12.

What happened, missed it?

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 4:11 pm

Tip tackle - landed on neck/head. TMO and ref conspired to somehow say it was his back - nobody else agreed, not even the Bristol fans.

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Post by Maine man Sun 21 Feb 2021, 4:12 pm

The Bristol 12 done a tip tackle. His legs went well above the horizontal and the LI player landed on his head/shoulders. It was very early on.

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 4:13 pm

Quite ironic given all the talk about the red cards for head contact this week are trying to drive them out of the game in the same way tip tackles were to then have a clear red for tip tackle this weekend not given.

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Post by Poorfour Sun 21 Feb 2021, 4:56 pm

Heaf wrote:So from the half time summary it seems the only ones that didn't think that was a red card was the ref and the TMO - and in Austin's words the ref bottled it.

On the other had, Healey and Dallaglio agreeing on something is a pretty goo indicator that they are both wrong. The ref to TMO discussion was very clear and neither of them thought it was anywhere near a red.
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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 5:01 pm

Yes they were clear - clearly wrong.

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Post by Heaf Sun 21 Feb 2021, 5:03 pm

On the other hand - what a comeback by LI ... only a fumbled 2 on 1 at the end away from snatching the win.  But given where they were a draw and 3 points is a good result.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 21 Feb 2021, 5:04 pm

I switched on in time to see the two yellow cards and the grand finale. LI just couldn't finish that last move. The Eadie yellow card has a huge momentum swing as was LI leaving a lot of big names on the bench to target Bristol late in the game. That's a brave tactical choice to make.

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