World cup draw

by tigertattie Mon 14 Dec 2020, 11:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Link below

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/pool-draw

Well thre we have it. Some taling points there with England getting the "easier" group? Pool B and C are the "groups of death" with Wales, Oz and Fiji havng world cup rematches, again!

France as hosts getting thier old pal NZ in thier group. They'll probably like htat to be honest!

Pool A
New Zealand
France
Italy
America 1
Africa 1

Pool B
South Africa
Ireland
Scotland
Asia/Pacific 1
Europe 2

Pool C
Wales
Australia
Fiji
Europe 1
Final Qualifier Winner

Pool D
England
Japan
Argentina
Oceania 1
Americas 2

Draw bands

Band 1 - South Africa, New Zealand, England, Wales
Band 2 - Ireland, France, Australia, Japan
Band 3 - Scotland, Argentina, Fiji and Italy
Band 4 - Oceania 1, Americas 1, Europe 1, Asia / Pacific 1
Band 5 - Africa 1, Europe 2, Americas 2, Final Qualifier Winner

by Gooseberry Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:47 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:To be fair even WOL acknowledge the lucky switch in timing...

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-rugby-world-cup-2023-19456566

At least the Wail have a reason to take an interest in Wales’ draw. I’d have thought Madge might’ve had a passing interest in his own country, but silly me.

I would just like to point out when i made my first comment about Wales can count them selve lucky to be seede for the 2023 rugby world cup i was not having a dig at Wales as you seem to think i was.

Regards you comment about me taking a passing interest in my own country. My point was that at the Rugby world cup England was ranked 2nd
in the World rankings.One year on and England are still ranked 2nd in the world rankings. Wales was ranked 4th in the world ranking. one year on they are now 9th in the world rankings.

So my point is " IFF" the draw was made now and not at the start of the year Wales would not be a seeded side. By the time the 2023 Rugby world cup comes around Wales may/ may i have climbed back up to 4th in the world Rankings, ( the word is maybe) but you never know 3 years ia a long time in rugby.

Might be worth pointing out last time they were a Pot 3 team they got to the knockouts by beating England

by majesticimperialman Thu 17 Dec 2020, 7:35 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:To be fair even WOL acknowledge the lucky switch in timing...

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-rugby-world-cup-2023-19456566

At least the Wail have a reason to take an interest in Wales’ draw. I’d have thought Madge might’ve had a passing interest in his own country, but silly me.

I would just like to point out when i made my first comment about Wales can count them selve lucky to be seede for the 2023 rugby world cup i was not having a dig at Wales as you seem to think i was.

Regards you comment about me taking a passing interest in my own country. My point was that at the Rugby world cup England was ranked 2nd
in the World rankings.One year on and England are still ranked 2nd in the world rankings. Wales was ranked 4th in the world ranking. one year on they are now 9th in the world rankings.

So my point is " IFF" the draw was made now and not at the start of the year Wales would not be a seeded side. By the time the 2023 Rugby world cup comes around Wales may/ may i have climbed back up to 4th in the world Rankings, ( the word is maybe) but you never know 3 years ia a long time in rugby.

Might be worth pointing out last time they were a Pot 3 team they got to the knockouts by beating England

You may be right about that, but i often get told on here stop living in the past, that was then we are talking the here and now. thumbsup

by Old Man Thu 17 Dec 2020, 7:47 pm

The biggest issue I have with RWC draws is not necessarily the timing of the draw (although it would be better to draw it closer to the event) but the fact that seeding is in fact random.

When the draw into the pools suggest that either 1 and 3 or 1 and 4 will take out a top team in the quarters you know the draw is wrong.

You look at tennis seeding the number one ranked player is seeded to meet at quarter final stage the 8th seed player, the 2 seed the 7th seed, the 3 seed the 6th seed and the 4 seed the 5th seed.

By assigning pot 1, 2 , 3 and so on your random draws allows for top seeds to meet at qf stage.

Whether that is a deliberate ploy to el8minate top seeds to provide more teams an opportunity to reach the SF I don’t know, but it sure seems like it.

by Soul Requiem Thu 17 Dec 2020, 7:56 pm

It only results in top seeds meeting in the quarter finals if one of them finishes second in their group.

by Old Man Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:01 pm

Not necessarily, you have New Zealand and France in the same pool, one of them will meet SA, one of these three teams will go home due to random draw rather than seeding.

by Soul Requiem Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:03 pm

They'll be going home because they weren't good enough to win.

by Old Man Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:07 pm

You are entirely missing the point.

But then I suspect you want to

by Soul Requiem Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:13 pm

Or perhaps your attempted point is irrelevant and impossible to implement. In theory any team including England could finish second in their group opening up the possibility of a quarter final against one of the big boys.

by Old Man Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:42 pm

OK, let me try this, if number one wins their pool, number two wins their pool, number three win their pool and number four win their pool, then 1vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5.

that doesn’t happen because there are no proper seeding applied to how the pools are constructed.

by Gooseberry Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:45 pm

Also that the seedings rarely reflect reality when the tournament comes around. The whole point of "top /bottom" of a group is to offer some element of reseeding.

You may have noticed that major tournaments that split a draw by seedings have a single venue and seedings that are set by results very close to the actual tournament.

At the last world cup the 3rd and fourth seeded teams went out in the quarters and the top seed in the semis. It was won by the the 7th seed. Now we could argue England were hard done by getting the 3rd and 1st seeds in the knockouts but that at least let them get an easy final ....

by Gooseberry Thu 17 Dec 2020, 8:47 pm

Old Man wrote:OK, let me try this, if number one wins their pool, number two wins their pool, number three win their pool and number four win their pool, then 1vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5.

that doesn’t happen because there are no proper seeding applied to how the pools are constructed.

What happens if 1 wins their pool but two doesnt?

by Old Man Thu 17 Dec 2020, 9:10 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Old Man wrote:OK, let me try this, if number one wins their pool, number two wins their pool, number three win their pool and number four win their pool, then 1vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5.

that doesn’t happen because there are no proper seeding applied to how the pools are constructed.

What happens if 1 wins their pool but two doesnt?

Lets look at correct pool setup for proper seeding.

Pool A
Seed 1
Seed 7

Pool B
Seed 3
Seed 5

Pool C
Seed 4
Seed 6

Pool D
seed 2
Seed 8

QF
Winner Pool A vs Runner up pool D
Winner Pool B vs Runner up Pool C
Winner Pool C vs Runner up Pool B
Winner Pool D vs runner up Pool A

SF
Winner QF 1 vs Winner QF 3
Winner QF 2 vs Winner QF 4

Final.

by theslosty Fri 18 Dec 2020, 12:49 am

Old Man wrote:You look at tennis seeding the number one ranked player is seeded to meet at quarter final stage the 8th seed player, the 2 seed the 7th seed, the 3 seed the 6th seed and the 4 seed the 5th seed.

By assigning pot 1, 2 , 3 and so on your random draws allows for top seeds to meet at qf stage.

Whether that is a deliberate ploy to el8minate top seeds to provide more teams an opportunity to reach the SF I don’t know, but it sure seems like it.

I'm sorry but this is not the case in tennis, the 1st seed can have any of the 5th-8th seeds in their quarter. There would likely be a lot of repeat quarter and semi-finals across tournaments if the draws were done as you suggested it.

I would love to know why World Rugby has to allocate the seedings so early, would their planning really be so badly affected if it was drawn just one year out instead, as FIFA/UEFA do?

by doctor_grey Fri 18 Dec 2020, 12:57 am

theslosty wrote:
Old Man wrote:You look at tennis seeding the number one ranked player is seeded to meet at quarter final stage the 8th seed player, the 2 seed the 7th seed, the 3 seed the 6th seed and the 4 seed the 5th seed.

By assigning pot 1, 2 , 3 and so on your random draws allows for top seeds to meet at qf stage.

Whether that is a deliberate ploy to el8minate top seeds to provide more teams an opportunity to reach the SF I don’t know, but it sure seems like it.
I'm sorry but this is not the case in tennis, the 1st seed can have any of the 5th-8th seeds in their quarter. There would likely be a lot of repeat quarter and semi-finals across tournaments if the draws were done as you suggested it.

I would love to know why World Rugby has to allocate the seedings so early, would their planning really be so badly affected if it was drawn just one year out instead, as FIFA/UEFA do?

probably bribe some government officials.............

by Gooseberry Fri 18 Dec 2020, 9:04 am

theslosty wrote:
I would love to know why World Rugby has to allocate the seedings so early, would their planning really be so badly affected if it was drawn just one year out instead, as FIFA/UEFA do?

Apparently yes from a commercial perspective judging by what the spokesperson said, and the stinging of the Japanese hurricane mess seems to have made them even more cautious to avoid a similar situation and add additional contingency as much as possible. COVID obviously forced the seedings to be set even earlier this time around, but they do recognise the weakness of this system so its not like they are blindly doing it and have often voiced an ambition to move the draw closer to the tournament.

Of course the minute they fix the draw to ensure the two biggest teams dont meet till the final everyone will moan its rigged in favour of the big teams.

by doctor_grey Fri 18 Dec 2020, 10:29 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Of course the minute they fix the draw to ensure the two biggest teams dont meet till the final everyone will moan its rigged in favour of the big teams.

You mean England and Argentina?

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