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PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020

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Post by McLaren Thu 03 Dec 2020, 8:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

GPB

Either that or the players are just really good. Wink
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Post by super_realist Tue 02 Nov 2021, 6:17 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:PGA Tour are going to ban "Green books" (which show slopes on greens etc) from next year. BUT - players and caddies can transfer handwritten notes they have made on existing green books to the new, less detailed yardage books that will be introduced.

I never thought peoples brains operate on a level where they are able to compute that data anyway.

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Post by pedro Mon 08 Nov 2021, 9:30 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:PGA Tour are going to ban "Green books" (which show slopes on greens etc) from next year. BUT - players and caddies can transfer handwritten notes they have made on existing green books to the new, less detailed yardage books that will be introduced.
Great idea. Make golf less academic and introduce more feeling and judgment.

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Post by GPB Tue 09 Nov 2021, 1:39 am

Update on Angel Cabrera from his Swing Coach

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/angel-cabrera-masters-us-open-charlie-epps-prison/

Angel Cabrera was one of my favorite golfers to watch 10-15 yrs ago. I called him a Big Game Hunter. He seemed to show up in majors on a regular basis and won two of them.

I always thought he was a cross between Seve and John Daly.




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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Nov 2021, 6:08 am

GPB wrote:Update on Angel Cabrera from his Swing Coach

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/angel-cabrera-masters-us-open-charlie-epps-prison/

Angel Cabrera was one of my favorite golfers to watch 10-15 yrs ago.  I called him a Big Game Hunter.  He seemed to show up in majors on a regular basis and won two of them.

I always thought he was a cross between Seve and John Daly.




Its amazing Cabrera is only 52, to look at him you'd think he was well into his 60's.

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Post by McLaren Thu 11 Nov 2021, 9:55 pm

PGATs response to all this super league nonsense.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/11/11/pga-tour-launch-guaranteed-money-events-for-top-stars/

Exclusive: PGA Tour to launch guaranteed money events for top stars, team format possible"


The PGA Tour plans to create a series of lucrative, international tournaments that will offer guaranteed money to the world’s best players, Golfweek can reveal.

The Tour intends to stage between four and six events annually outside of the United States, in Europe, Asia and the Middle East. The series will begin in the fall of 2023 at the earliest, though possibly not until 2024. Details of the plan were confirmed to Golfweek by an industry executive familiar with the ongoing discussions. The executive requested anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

The move will be seen as an effort by the PGA Tour to thwart the threat posed by the Super Golf League, a proposed splinter circuit financed by the Saudi Arabian regime that has been trying to lure players to global events with promises of huge signing bonuses and guaranteed cash. The Super League has tried to attract players for at least seven years with no success. PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan made clear he will ban any member who signs on to a rival circuit, but has worked behind the scenes to devise ways to further reward his star players and dilute the risk of their splitting with the Saudis.
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Post by GPB Sat 13 Nov 2021, 7:15 pm

Lee Westwood with an 84 in Houston. Next highest round was 80 (by Brooks little Brother).

Guess he wants to play as many PGATour events before he abandons the PGATour for the Saudis.

I don't think the European DP World Tour will sanction the Saudi League. If Lee Westwood joins the PGL Tour, would that jeopardize a Ryder Cup Captaincy?


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Post by super_realist Mon 15 Nov 2021, 7:08 am

Good win for Peni5 Shelf.

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Post by JAS Mon 15 Nov 2021, 5:20 pm

super_realist wrote:Good win for Peni5 Shelf.

I had to look who won at the weekend, I did chuckle as the penny dropped…very good!!

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Post by JAS Mon 15 Nov 2021, 5:25 pm

GPB wrote:Lee Westwood with an 84 in Houston.  Next highest round was 80  (by Brooks little Brother).

Guess he wants to play as many PGATour events before he abandons the PGATour for the Saudis.

I don't think the European DP World Tour will sanction the Saudi League.  If Lee Westwood joins the PGL Tour, would that jeopardize a Ryder Cup Captaincy?


Begs the question… what’s worse, taking Saudi money for playing in their golf tournaments or taking their money for selling them arms for proxy wars all over the Middle East.

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Post by super_realist Mon 15 Nov 2021, 5:34 pm

JAS wrote:
GPB wrote:Lee Westwood with an 84 in Houston.  Next highest round was 80  (by Brooks little Brother).

Guess he wants to play as many PGATour events before he abandons the PGATour for the Saudis.

I don't think the European DP World Tour will sanction the Saudi League.  If Lee Westwood joins the PGL Tour, would that jeopardize a Ryder Cup Captaincy?


Begs the question… what’s worse, taking Saudi money for playing in their golf tournaments or taking their money for selling them arms for proxy wars all over the Middle East.

Ask Lewis Hamilton, he likes to compete in all of those backward theocracies.

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Post by super_realist Tue 30 Nov 2021, 1:34 pm

Grrat news that Botox has effectively announced his retirement.

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Post by JAS Wed 01 Dec 2021, 4:07 pm

super_realist wrote:Grrat news that Botox has effectively announced his retirement.

That’s not what he said although to be fair I think that will be the end result. He’ll start off playing a select few tournaments, realise he can’t be competitive on such a sparse schedule and then either….Bow out and retire OR try and step his schedule up and get injured again… and retire.

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Post by McLaren Tue 07 Dec 2021, 2:42 pm

I get it isn't the biggest event of the year but it was still a little shocking to see Morikawa implode at the Hero. Probably the first blip we have seen from him so far in what has been a career with almost no missteps.
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Post by incontinentia Tue 07 Dec 2021, 5:47 pm

McLaren wrote:I get it isn't the biggest event of the year but it was still a little shocking to see Morikawa implode at the Hero. Probably the first blip we have seen from him so far in what has been a career with almost no missteps.
Yes indeed. He has seemed really "clutch" so far in his career, but I guess no-one is exempt from performance failures.

Has Tiger ever choked?
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Post by incontinentia Tue 07 Dec 2021, 5:51 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:Grrat news that Botox has effectively announced his retirement.

That’s not what he said although to be fair I think that will be the end result. He’ll start off playing a select few tournaments, realise he can’t be competitive on such a sparse schedule and then either….Bow out and retire OR try and step his schedule up and get injured again… and retire.
Maybe he'll play majors only for the foreseeable?
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Post by McLaren Tue 07 Dec 2021, 6:18 pm

incontinentia wrote:

Has Tiger ever choked?

2009 PGA championship?
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Post by incontinentia Tue 07 Dec 2021, 7:04 pm

McLaren wrote:
incontinentia wrote:

Has Tiger ever choked?

2009 PGA championship?
Did T throw it away or did Yang win it? For me its the latter.
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Post by McLaren Tue 07 Dec 2021, 9:35 pm

Big cat blew a 3 shot 54 hole lead. And bogied the final two holes.
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Post by incontinentia Tue 07 Dec 2021, 10:43 pm

Not sure that constitutes a choke.
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Post by McLaren Tue 07 Dec 2021, 10:47 pm

Given how lethal The Cat was, it was a choke for him.
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Post by I'm never wrong Wed 08 Dec 2021, 7:15 pm

Tiger playing in PNC Championship

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Post by GPB Fri 10 Dec 2021, 3:56 pm

McLaren wrote:Big cat blew a 3 shot 54 hole lead. And bogied the final two holes.

It was a 2 shot lead 54 hole lead (over Yang and Harrington), 4 shot 36 hole lead over 5 players (Glover, Singh, Harrington, Fisher, Brendon Jones)

Yang won by 3 shots.

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Post by incontinentia Fri 10 Dec 2021, 5:07 pm

Tiger didnt do anything that could be considered chokey, he was simply beaten by the better man on the day.

If anything Harrington choked, he shot a +6 or something on sunday.
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Post by GPB Sun 12 Dec 2021, 2:20 am

incontinentia wrote:Tiger didnt do anything that could be considered chokey, he was simply beaten by the better man on the day.

If anything Harrington choked, he shot a +6 or something on sunday.

Tiger shooting 75 with a two shot lead is not a choke, but Harrington shooting 78 while two shots behind is a choke?

I don't remember the exact circumstances, but Paddy took an 8 on the par 3 8th hole,

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Post by incontinentia Sun 12 Dec 2021, 4:33 am

GPB wrote:
incontinentia wrote:Tiger didnt do anything that could be considered chokey, he was simply beaten by the better man on the day.

If anything Harrington choked, he shot a +6 or something on sunday.

Tiger shooting 75 with a two shot lead is not a choke, but Harrington shooting 78 while two shots behind is a choke?

I don't remember the exact circumstances, but Paddy took an 8 on the par 3 8th hole,
I dont remember the details either, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I guess its hard to accurately define a choke, but its obvious when you see it. I dont recall Tiger making any glaring errors that day, but Paddy wrecked his chances in one hole. I'll give Paddy the benefit of the doubt as he was generally a good player under pressure. Contrary to what McLaren has said, I don't think the words Tiger and Choke belong in the same sentence (in a golfing context at least).
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Post by incontinentia Wed 15 Dec 2021, 7:59 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:Tiger playing in PNC Championship
So eh, anyone think Tiger will play decently in this new phase or is his body simply too shattered? I watched a youtube video of a recent range session and he didnt seem inhibited in his movement or anything.
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Post by super_realist Thu 16 Dec 2021, 2:10 pm

incontinentia wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:Tiger playing in PNC Championship
So eh, anyone think Tiger will play decently in this new phase or is his body simply too shattered? I watched a youtube video of a recent range session and he didnt seem inhibited in his movement or anything.

Even more tinpot than The Presidents Cup, wont be an indication of anything really as its not a serious event.

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Post by incontinentia Thu 16 Dec 2021, 4:11 pm

super_realist wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:Tiger playing in PNC Championship
So eh, anyone think Tiger will play decently in this new phase or is his body simply too shattered? I watched a youtube video of a recent range session and he didnt seem inhibited in his movement or anything.

Even more tinpot than The Presidents Cup, wont be an indication of anything really as its not a serious event.
A nice, easy-going return to the fold though?

My question was more relating to what we might expect from here on. If he wins another major it will be the greatest feat in sports history.
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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 8:04 am

If golf was an Athletic sport I might agree with you, but it isn't.

Theres more impressive injury comebacks than this in proper sport, besides I dont think he has the slighest hope of another major, not even at a course as easy as St Andrews, theres kust too many great players now who blow him out of the water.

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Post by JAS Fri 17 Dec 2021, 1:08 pm

super_realist wrote:If golf was an Athletic sport I might agree with you, but it isn't.

Theres more impressive injury comebacks than this in proper sport, besides I dont think he has the slighest hope of another major, not even at a course as easy as St Andrews, theres kust too many great players now who blow him out of the water.

It is a lot more than it used to be, name more than one (obvious) major winner in the last 10 years that doesn’t spend a reasonable part of their overall regime in the gym?

As far as Woods is concerned, I don’t see any comeback going as far as a major win now. I know Hogan did it after arguably much worse injuries but that was in a completely different era i.e. like you elude to, there are just too many great players now for all of them to have an off week in the same week and even if they did theirs another tier of decent up and comers who would step in.

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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 1:16 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:If golf was an Athletic sport I might agree with you, but it isn't.

Theres more impressive injury comebacks than this in proper sport, besides I dont think he has the slighest hope of another major, not even at a course as easy as St Andrews, theres kust too many great players now who blow him out of the water.

It is a lot more than it used to be, name more than one (obvious) major winner in the last 10 years that doesn’t spend a reasonable part of their overall regime in the gym?

As far as Woods is concerned, I don’t see any comeback going as far as a major win now. I know Hogan did it after arguably much worse injuries but that was in a completely different era i.e. like you elude to, there are just too many great players now for all of them to have an off week in the same week and even if they did theirs another tier of decent up and comers who would step in.

Gym doesnt equate to fit though  and it doesnt make golf an athletic sport when a pro might hit just 25 full shots per round.

Ronnie O Sullivan is a pretty decent athlete by all accounts, but that doesnt make snooker something which is athletic simply because he spends a lot of time in the gym or running.

The level that Rahm, Morikawa, Schleffler, Hovland, shauffle, Berger, Cantley, Koepka etc are at with the following not quite so good (anymore) Thomas, McIlroy, Rev Gordon Spieth etc following up means Botox Woods has no chance.

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Post by JAS Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:17 pm

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:If golf was an Athletic sport I might agree with you, but it isn't.

Theres more impressive injury comebacks than this in proper sport, besides I dont think he has the slighest hope of another major, not even at a course as easy as St Andrews, theres kust too many great players now who blow him out of the water.

It is a lot more than it used to be, name more than one (obvious) major winner in the last 10 years that doesn’t spend a reasonable part of their overall regime in the gym?

As far as Woods is concerned, I don’t see any comeback going as far as a major win now. I know Hogan did it after arguably much worse injuries but that was in a completely different era i.e. like you elude to, there are just too many great players now for all of them to have an off week in the same week and even if they did theirs another tier of decent up and comers who would step in.

Gym doesnt equate to fit though  and it doesnt make golf an athletic sport when a pro might hit just 25 full shots per round.

Ronnie O Sullivan is a pretty decent athlete by all accounts, but that doesnt make snooker something which is athletic simply because he spends a lot of time in the gym or running.

The level that Rahm, Morikawa, Schleffler, Hovland, shauffle, Berger, Cantley, Koepka etc are at with the following not quite so good (anymore) Thomas, McIlroy, Rev Gordon Spieth etc following up means Botox Woods has no chance.

True although you could also say that even snooker has changed as the decades have rolled by (on a much different level obviously), crikey in the mid 80's remember lager guzzling Werbenuik? For many of the top players back then the tipple beside their resting chair wasn't water like it is now. That feeds into the general point though that participants in most sports now take their conditioning much more seriously and link peak conditioning with peak performance potential. In his heyday Woods had an edge on that score...now he doesn't, others have caught up and passed and I'd also venture a guess that he'll feel that more in his head than he will in his body.

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Post by McLaren Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:20 pm

Super

Don't you spend a lot of time doing an activity which requires no Skill? Sport is a combination of skill and fitness, and in that sense running is no more of a sport than darts.
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Post by GPB Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:24 pm

IMO, Athletism alone is not completely defined by optimal BMI, Skill is a big part of the equation.

Just because a marathoner can run 26+ miles in 2 hours doesn't mean that he is a good athlete. Can he do rudimentary athletic skills, like hit a tennis ball, throw/catch a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.

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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:28 pm

GPB wrote:IMO, Athletism alone is not completely defined by optimal BMI, Skill is a big part of the equation.

Just because a marathoner can run 26+ miles in 2 hours doesn't mean that he is a good athlete.  Can he do rudimentary athletic skills, like hit a tennis ball, throw/catch a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.

Running a two hour marathon by definition means you are a supreme athlete.

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Post by JAS Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:38 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Don't you spend a lot of time doing an activity which requires no Skill? Sport is a combination of skill and fitness, and in that sense running is no more of a sport than darts.

Running is one of the most basic forms of sport Mac. There's an awful lot more than just running faster than anyone else. Fitness work in the training is obvious but a lot of the time the real skill in racing comes with assessing the opponents around you in the race, assessing yourself and therefore working out when to make a decisive break to win a race, there is a skill in that. It may not be as nuanced or sophisticated as working out whether to hit a flop or a bump and run and whether to hit a controlled punchy draw with a 5 iron to a safe part of the green or bludgeon a 6 over the bunker to a pin but nevertheless its still a skill.

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Post by McLaren Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:42 pm

Jas

Have you been indoctrinated? This is some of your most tin foil hat stuff yet. It's one foot in front of the other for as long as you can.
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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Have you been indoctrinated? This is some of your most tin foil hat stuff yet. It's one foot in front of the other for as long as you can.

Mac, skill is simply the application of natural or learned technique.
You could run or row all your life, but if you don't have the right technique/skill you won't get any better at it. Being an efficient and effective runner is a skill, its not as obvious as sports you are familiar with, but youd see it immediately if you went for a run with someone who was good at it

Its not simply about cardiovascular. There are so many different facets to it. Its as naive as me saying F1 drivers just have to drive round a track.

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Post by incontinentia Fri 17 Dec 2021, 10:09 pm

GPB wrote:IMO, Athletism alone is not completely defined by optimal BMI, Skill is a big part of the equation.

Just because a marathoner can run 26+ miles in 2 hours doesn't mean that he is a good athlete.  Can he do rudimentary athletic skills, like hit a tennis ball, throw/catch a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.
This is ridiculous, but I think I know what you're getting at. Athleticism is made up of many different factors (speed, endurance, strength, co-ordination, agility etc), and the better you are at the combination of different factors in total, the more athletic you are (eg decathletes). But if you are in the top 0.001% in a single athletic endeavour then you can of course claim to be a tremendous athlete.
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Post by GPB Sat 18 Dec 2021, 1:01 am

incontinentia wrote:
GPB wrote:IMO, Athletism alone is not completely defined by optimal BMI, Skill is a big part of the equation.

Just because a marathoner can run 26+ miles in 2 hours doesn't mean that he is a good athlete.  Can he do rudimentary athletic skills, like hit a tennis ball, throw/catch a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.
This is ridiculous, but I think I know what you're getting at. Athleticism is made up of many different factors (speed, endurance, strength, co-ordination, agility etc), and the better you are at the combination of different factors in total, the more athletic you are (eg decathletes). But if you are in the top 0.001% in a single athletic endeavour then you can of course claim to be a tremendous athlete.

I don't think it is ridiculous at all.

Friend of mine runs half marathons and 10ks all the time. And with somewhat competitive times in his age class. All his life. Ran Track and Cross Country in High School and College.

But he is a total klutz. He cannot do the rudimentary tasks in sports (and as a sports fan, he has tried and tried). He has absolutely no hand/eye coordination.

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Post by GPB Sat 18 Dec 2021, 1:04 am

super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:IMO, Athletism alone is not completely defined by optimal BMI, Skill is a big part of the equation.

Just because a marathoner can run 26+ miles in 2 hours doesn't mean that he is a good athlete.  Can he do rudimentary athletic skills, like hit a tennis ball, throw/catch a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.

Running a two hour marathon by definition means you are a supreme athlete.

IMO, you are disqualified from being a supreme athlete if you can't throw a baseball 5 meters or kick a soccer without falling down. And I know a guy who is semi competitive in 10K and half marathons who is a total klutz and cannot do the most basic skills in sports.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:16 pm

GPB wrote:
super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:IMO, Athletism alone is not completely defined by optimal BMI, Skill is a big part of the equation.

Just because a marathoner can run 26+ miles in 2 hours doesn't mean that he is a good athlete.  Can he do rudimentary athletic skills, like hit a tennis ball, throw/catch a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.

Running a two hour marathon by definition means you are a supreme athlete.

IMO, you are disqualified from being a supreme athlete if you can't throw a baseball 5 meters or kick a soccer without falling down.  And I know a guy who is semi competitive in 10K and half marathons who is a total klutz and cannot do the most basic skills in sports.

Well youre on record as saying that someone who plays marvles is an athlete, so who cares?

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Post by GPB Mon 20 Dec 2021, 5:33 pm

Never said that.


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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:32 pm

GPB wrote:Never said that.


You said something those lines, either marbles, tiddlywinks or something along such sedentary lines

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Post by McLaren Tue 21 Dec 2021, 12:50 pm

Have to agree with GPB here. Running is pretty much the most basic sporting skill.
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Post by super_realist Tue 21 Dec 2021, 1:03 pm

McLaren wrote:Have to agree with GPB here. Running is pretty much the most basic sporting skill.

Its basic, but theres still a skill to it. You could have the same cardio level as me, but I'd absolutely crush you on a run.

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Post by McLaren Tue 21 Dec 2021, 1:15 pm

Super

What makes you think that?
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Post by super_realist Tue 21 Dec 2021, 1:23 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

What makes you think that?

Because unlike you i understand that the skills exist in running and you wont have them as a non runner . There is skill and technique in running whether or not you can recognise them.

I get you dont understand it, but its like saying theres no skill in swimming, cycling, rowing etc, just because you cant see them doesnt mean they dont exist.

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Post by GPB Tue 21 Dec 2021, 5:00 pm

super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:Never said that.


You said something those lines, either marbles, tiddlywinks or something along such sedentary lines

(Parapharsing) What I said if there was a worldwide ELITE compeition of skillful participants that involves hand-eye coordination, the winner is probably is athletic. With a little training, he could pick up skills to play sports on a "non-hacker" level.

AKAIK, there is no ELITE World Class competition of marbles or tiddlywinks

IMO, playing golf at a World Class level is mostly skill and those players are athletes, even if they are borderline obese. Non-optimal BMI does not disqualify anyone from being ahtlete and having a optimal BMI does not automatically make someone an athlete,

As usual, you take my comments out of context. FWIW, Reading Comprehension is skill, albeit not an athletic skill.

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Post by super_realist Wed 22 Dec 2021, 1:01 pm

GPB wrote:
super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:Never said that.


You said something those lines, either marbles, tiddlywinks or something along such sedentary lines

(Parapharsing) What I said if there was a worldwide ELITE compeition of skillful participants that involves hand-eye coordination, the winner is probably is athletic.  With a little training, he could pick up skills to play sports on a "non-hacker" level.

AKAIK, there is no ELITE World Class competition of marbles or tiddlywinks

IMO, playing golf at a World Class level is mostly skill and those players are athletes, even if they are borderline obese.  Non-optimal BMI does not disqualify anyone from being ahtlete and having a optimal BMI does not automatically make someone an athlete,

As usual, you take my comments out of context.  FWIW, Reading Comprehension is skill, albeit not an athletic skill.

Yes, there are World Championships for these things. Doesnt make them athletes. Is a Chess Grandmaster an athlete?

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