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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Fri 05 Feb 2021, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Rum sort of field for Nadeem to Sibley...two short covers ???

Not noted for getting caught there , is he ? Strange theory...

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:26 am

I'd probably have a dart for two overs and then declare.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:26 am

Ishant bringing some.smiles
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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:30 am

Wow, his potential hat-trick ball was a no-ball. Imagine if he knocked Leach's stumps over on that delivery!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:30 am

The no ball klaxon is fantastic
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Post by JDizzle Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:30 am

Block Ishant, try and bash whichever spinner bowls at the other end. Seems a bit churlish to complain about making 530, but it has fallen away a bit here!

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:34 am

Before Olly says it on my behalf .... the worst thing England could do from here is be bowled all out tonight with India having no time to bat until the morning.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:41 am

guildfordbat wrote:Before Olly says it on my behalf .... the worst thing England could do from here is be bowled all out tonight with India having no time to bat until the morning.

Yes England have rather messed up this last session...no serious runs added and increasingly unlikely to get a crack at the Indian bats tonight. Bit like the first Galle Test ? Though that worked out all right...

Still they're not badly placed , although it will take some good bowling from here to force a result. Bat to the close now boys and have a dash in the morning.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:43 am

A wasted few overs really, once Buttler was dismissed we were unlikely to add any meaningful runs quick enough for it to make a difference.

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Post by JDizzle Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:44 am

1 run off the last 2 overs. Not really sure what they are trying to achieve here.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:47 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Difference between 500 and 600 is you can still lose (admittedly highly unlikely) after scoring 500, but it's virtually impossible if you score 600. No test team has ever lost after scoring 600 in the first innings batting first - the highest 1st innings score (batting first) and going on to lose is Bangladesh making 595/8 declared against NZ in 2017. There's been a total of seven instances in test cricket where a team batting first has scored 500-595 and gone on to lose (five of them taking place in Australia).

Hi Duty - yes, but we should not lose having exceeded 500. I accept we still could as history shows. However, I doubt we'll be in such a good position too often in this series as we are now. I would therefore gamble (although I don't think it's too much of a gamble) by declaring before stumps today and leaving some runs out there in going for the win.
Morning guildford and all. Similar thoughts from me currently. I'd want a few overs at the openers tonight. With Bess and Leach scoring slowly then Jimmy to come I'd be telling these two to swing for an over or two then declare.

I set my alarm to see the first session then fell back to sleep before having work for an hour earlier so missed most of the actions today. Another glorious innings by Root though.

Whilst it sounds like Stokes got out in a frustrating way it's very important for England that he showed form and Pope settled into some time at the crease as well.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:49 am

JDizzle wrote:1 run off the last 2 overs. Not really sure what they are trying to achieve here.

Looking for stumps. The Guildford Doctrine... Make sure the Indian openers have to run off the field tomorrow morning to pad up rather than get ready overnight.

Even if they hit a quick dozen or so more now , India won't bat tonight.

This is probably the best thing they can do this evening.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:53 am

Oh Rohit.

That's a Joe Denly drop.

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Post by JDizzle Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:53 am

alfie wrote:
JDizzle wrote:1 run off the last 2 overs. Not really sure what they are trying to achieve here.

Looking for stumps. The Guildford Doctrine...  Make sure the Indian openers have to run off the field tomorrow morning to pad up rather than get ready overnight.

Even if they hit a quick dozen or so more now , India won't bat tonight.

This is probably the best thing they can do this evening.

If Rohit’s concentration is such he is dropping chances like that - then I want him batting now!

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:53 am

Not Washington Sundar's lucky day ! First he has Buttler caught behind and the umpire is asleep...now Rohit drops one my elderly aunt would have swallowed...

And she's 93

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:56 am

JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:
JDizzle wrote:1 run off the last 2 overs. Not really sure what they are trying to achieve here.

Looking for stumps. The Guildford Doctrine...  Make sure the Indian openers have to run off the field tomorrow morning to pad up rather than get ready overnight.

Even if they hit a quick dozen or so more now , India won't bat tonight.

This is probably the best thing they can do this evening.

If Rohit’s concentration is such he is dropping chances like that - then I want him batting now!

Yeah , well I'd have had him in by now. But it's been clear for a long time they weren't satisfied with 500 so they set out to bat on ... and it is too late now. They'd bowl two overs if they declared now which is next to useless.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:59 am

alfie wrote:
JDizzle wrote:1 run off the last 2 overs. Not really sure what they are trying to achieve here.

Looking for stumps. The Guildford Doctrine...  Make sure the Indian openers have to run off the field tomorrow morning to pad up rather than get ready overnight.

Even if they hit a quick dozen or so more now , India won't bat tonight.

This is probably the best thing they can do this evening.

As you would expect, Alfie's got it spot on for me. This isn't how I or anyone on the England side wanted us to end up but we're doing as best we can in the current circumstances. As Alfie also posted earlier, the situation not helped at all by Archer continuing to look more like a number 11 than a 9.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:05 am

alfie wrote:Not Washington Sundar's lucky day !  First he has Buttler caught behind and the umpire is asleep...now Rohit drops one my elderly aunt would have swallowed...

And she's 93

I was out when that happened and, like the umpire, also missed it. Wink However, tbf to the local umpires and in the light of JD's pre match warning about their inexperience, they don't seem to have done too badly. Little noticed and commented upon which is always how it should be for any match official.

And now here's Bumrah - would have turned to him earlier ... and not just for Joey's comp! Smile

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:08 am

Getting near to the close . And near to 550.  Dom Bess adding useful runs again (with a bit of help from Rohit Smile )

Two overs left. hang in there chaps . . . I am sure the last thing India want is to have to come out and bowl again in the third morning...

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:15 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Not Washington Sundar's lucky day !  First he has Buttler caught behind and the umpire is asleep...now Rohit drops one my elderly aunt would have swallowed...

And she's 93

I was out when that happened and, like the umpire, also missed it. Wink However, tbf to the local umpires and in the light of JD's pre match warning about their inexperience, they don't seem to have done too badly. Little noticed and commented upon which is always how it should be for any match official.

And now here's Bumrah - would have turned to him earlier ... and not just for Joey's comp! Smile



Agree they've done OK. Which is why India lost their three reviews by doubting them ! Only have themselves to blame for not having the remedy to hand when the umpires do make a blunder...no sympathy .

555/8. Will take that thumbsup

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:15 am

England have got the 500 that was wanted at the start of play, albeit with a sluggish finish. It will be very tough for England to take 20 wickets on this fine batting wicket, especially with India's top six as strong as it is...though there is a fairly long tail. Let's see if the pitch starts to misbehave a bit more tomorrow.

England need a minimum of 8 wickets on day three to put themselves into a winning position. On the other hand, if India replicate England's effort and bat through two days, then England will be boxed in and need to bat out the last day for a draw, with potential defeat on the horizon.

For a change of pace the Big Bash Final is currently on, by the way, and heading for a close conclusion.

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Post by alfie Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:19 am

If England lose from this position I'll be calling for heads...

Winning might be tough. Need to get India out well in arrears , add a few more and get 'em back in with a day or so to play on a crumbling deck. Easy to type ...less so to achieve. But they're in a good spot tonight so we should be happy with what we have for now.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:41 am

Another good day for England, albeit ideally could’ve done with losing one or two less wickets in the final session...but that’s being greedy! Good work by Bess and Leach to see out the day and add another handy 20/30 so far, if they could eek out 600 in the morning that would be fantastic

Over to the bowlers now...like Duty, I’m pessimistic about our hopes of forcing a win, the pitch while it did a bit more today is still a very good batting one, and of course the Indian top 6 is incredibly strong. But if we continue to push that follow on target up towards 400, then you never know...
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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Feb 2021, 12:04 pm

Yep, pretty much with you guys on the state of play. Personally I would have preferred around 530 for whatever declared and India 25/1 with a night watchman in at close. However, even I am not going to grumble at 555/8. If he's able to watch from wherever he is now, Shep will be hopping all night!

Quick question for you guys from this old fool who was brought up with paper and pencils.
Channel 4 say highlights are available on All 4 but give no further details. What is All 4? A tv channel? An app? How / can I get it on my Virgin Media tv? I'm not fussed for now but would like to know for another time in case live cricket coverage is switched to All 4 with Channel 4 showing ''When Charles Met Camilla'' or similar. Many thanks.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Feb 2021, 12:06 pm

Press home on the virgin remote and then select apps, should be in there, it's kind of like netflix so doesnt show live tv. May need to sign up for an account GB.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 06 Feb 2021, 12:12 pm

thumbsup Thanks, soul.

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Post by Gooseberry Sat 06 Feb 2021, 12:39 pm

How many times have England passed 550 in India? Id be surprised if its more than 5 since the 1908s.

Its all about Root though. How is one player so much better against spin than his teamates? Its not even like theres anyone English in the past 50 years who you could argue was his equal in that regard. When he retires England absolutely need him to onboard as a coach for any series in Asia.

Id agree winning could still be tough but any team would bite your hand off for this position playing in India. The attrition on Bumrah and Ashwin cant be underestimated for the series too.

Dont have any problem with england batting out the line up n the morning and keeping the foot on the throat. More mind games for the Indian top order, more overs in the bowlers. Ultimately though the bowlers need to back Root up.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sat 06 Feb 2021, 3:32 pm

Hi folks. Enjoying the cricket. Here are my thoughts.

I can fully understand England batting on. Get the runs whilst you can when the pitch is still in a decent shape - that is now. If Bess can hang around on this surface in its current state evidently so are the top notch Indian batsmen hence why you bat on. The longer you bat the more you score and the more the pitch will deteriorate and cause more problems to bat on. Gets runs now rather than on a fifth day minefield.
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Post by Gooseberry Sat 06 Feb 2021, 4:28 pm

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/highest_innings_totals.html?class=1;id=1;type=team

Crumbs ... some context to how good a score this is for England historically. Already their second highest in India ever.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 12:52 am

Some further thoughts on the (now rather academic) argument over whether t'were better to have declared last night and given India a few overs to survive or continue as they have in search of 600...

I understand Root is on record as saying they wanted 600 - or more. Understandable given their experiences here four years earlier , when some apparently fine scores led only to draw or defeat. And I take Craig's ( welcome back to the cricket chat , Craig) point about the desirability of making your runs before the pitch goes sour. The strategy may well work.

The problems with this approach , as I see it , are chiefly that even if the pitch deteriorates quickly and you bowl your opponent out in time to enforce a follow on , you are faced with having to ask your bowlers to do their jobs again , without a rest , in tough conditions. This is not only no picnic at the time , but also risks flattening them for the next match - which follows hard upon. If , say , India were dismissed for 370 in reply to 590 ; and then bowled out second time for 200 or so some time on day five you'd have a fine result but some very weary bowlers...

Of course that is just one scenario : England would doubtless hope to dismiss them cheaper and earlier in both innings. But I don't think that will be easy to achieve. (This is all hopelessly hypothetical and I am not advancing it as a prediction , by the way. ) But my preferred situation would have had England closing at 500 plus , getting India out for anything up to 400 , and then having a short second innings ( length dictated by scores and state of pitch) before making the home team bat last with the pitch at its absolute worst against bowlers who have had a bit of a break between innings.

Never mind: choice has been made and we will see how it turns out. They have certainly executed the first part of their plan rather well ( you'd hope Bess and co can add a few more nuisance runs this morning to get closer to the desired 600) and it will at least ensure scoreboard pressure on the Indian batsmen for a long time regardless of how quickly or slowly the pitch goes rogue.

Always an interesting decision to make , when you are in the fortunate position of being 500/6 late on day two ( not often!) A bit like the "do we enforce the follow on " or when to declare and set a fourth innings target issues oft debated on here and in the Comms box. I don't always agree with Root and Silverwood but I'd say they actually have a decent record of making a choice that works over the last year or so : happy to go along with them this time round and see where it leads...

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 4:21 am

Sedate start to day three.  Picking up singles , Leach doing well to keep out Bumrah's Yorkers ...Not sure how many they can realistically hope to add - or how long we really want them to bat : but I'm sure the additional irritation to the Indian side in having to bowl on after two solid days in the field is worth something. More overs for Ashwin and Bumrah too , as Kohli doubtless wants to ensure his most economical bowlers are in action.
Bess showing signs of wanting to get on with it : nice lofted on drive for four. thumbsup

567/8

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 4:21 am

First sign of aggression from Dom Bess as he advances down the wicket and knocks Ashwin over the top for four.

Do we reckon England are looking at a certain total, batting a certain amount of time or just this partnership?

Given Jimmy will take the new ball I probably wouldn't send him out if this partnership is broken but England might fancy a few boundaries from his reverse sweep.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 4:25 am

Ashwin's carrom ball turning should give Leach and Bess some encouragement for sure.

When Sundar bowled a bit quicker, into the pitch the ball turned more but he also went for runs. It will be interesting to see what pace the England spinners opt for and how they react to the surface.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 4:27 am

Third new ball and Bumrah traps Bess lbw immediately...looked pretty good live and Bess thoughtfully departs without wasting a review...

Never know how many reviews Jimmy might need so nice of him to leave them for him. Smile

Pitch looks OK so far this morning so that will please India. Reckon they'll be in pretty soon. 567/9.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 4:32 am

king_carlos wrote:First sign of aggression from Dom Bess as he advances down the wicket and knocks Ashwin over the top for four.

Do we reckon England are looking at a certain total, batting a certain amount of time or just this partnership?

Given Jimmy will take the new ball I probably wouldn't send him out if this partnership is broken but England might fancy a few boundaries from his reverse sweep.

Think they want whatever they can get. Having batted on I guess ten minutes either way is fairly irrelevant.

Pant having a rough few balls there . Missed stumping , followed by four byes...Ashwin might be getting a bit frustrated : he has at least beaten the bat there - which might encourage the England spinners for later...

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 4:47 am

So 578 it is. Probably a good time to finish. 23 runs today , ten overs , so not too much time wasted.

Now comes the hard work. One of my reservations about this plan of batting long , batting once , is that while scoring 600 is historically proof against defeat , I suspect not many teams who bat into day three end up actually winning their match (haven't checked the stats) for the obvious reasons that such a score generally means a very flat pitch and that batting so long tends to take a bit too much time out of the game.
Will be interesting to see how India approach this innings.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:08 am

Typical Indian opening approach...going for their shots.

But Archer has got his man Rohit ...lifting and edged behind thumbsup

Just the start England wanted . The puff of dust last over a good sign too...

Here comes the Human Wall.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:15 am

I think you were right they just wanted to get whatever they could alfie. Jimmy seemed to take a slightly old school decision as a senior bowler to get on with things at the very end!  Laugh

Archer's 'wobble seam' cutters are doing a little bit as you allude to with that little explosion of dust.

Fantastic for England to get the early break through.

63-1 to 63-2
473-5 to 477-6
525-7 to 525-8

India did take a couple of wickets together on 3 occasions in England's innings so whilst an absolute road it does seem there's a tiny bit there whilst batsman are getting their eye in. If Pujara gets his eye in he will take some shifting on this though.

Shubman Gill times the ball wonderfully.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:29 am

Gill is playing well. You might say Anderson is bowling a little too straight to him ; but with 578 on the board it is probably worth risking the leakage of a few boundaries in the hopes of getting through his guard early...unfortunately no swing happening.

Root won't want to exhaust his pace men so I think we will see spin fairly early. But Pujara has such a strong record against spin he will probably have one of them - or Stokes - working away at him for a while from one end.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:41 am

Not altogether happy at this approach by Stokes : introduced for the ninth over and immediately operating with a "funky" field - leg side catchers , short ball focus ?
Not sure it is necessary so early to depart from orthodoxy. Something in me always shudders at the sight of a pace bowler with no slips - especially with a still new ball !

Never mind that . Archer has his second by way of a super Jimmy Anderson catch at mid on ...bit careless by Gill who'd played so well but England are right on top now ...

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:43 am

Yes, Archer and Jimmy!

Jimmy might not be the quite the fielder he was when he stood at first slip off Swann and in the gully during really attacking periods but he is still an exceptional fielder by seam bowlers standards. That's a brilliant catch to remove Gill as he was looking dangerous.

Archer is a getting a good bit out of this dead pitch at the moment. A very good short ball to Kohli on his 3rd delivery as well.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:45 am

That was an excellent over from Archer. Good pace , not overdoing the short stuff ...rewarded with the important wicket of Gill. Probably only one more over for him , maybe two at a stretch ? But he'd be delighted with this early success.

The Big Two in for India now so crucial period coming up to tea...

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:47 am

alfie wrote:Not altogether happy at this approach by Stokes : introduced for the ninth over and immediately operating with a "funky" field - leg side catchers , short ball focus ?
Not sure it is necessary so early to depart from orthodoxy. Something in me always shudders at the sight of a pace bowler with no slips - especially with a still new ball !
Not something I'm a fan of either I must say.

It's so sudden that it must be a plan I'd presume. Pujara does average less against pace than spin.

Maybe England are hoping for quick bursts from the seamers followed by a stint from the spinners to get it to around 40 overs when the ball will hopefully reverse. Banging the ball in short will help rough it up for reverse swing and around the wicket will rough it up outside off for the spinners as well.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:49 am

Butcher made the exact same point about roughing up the ball and pitch just as I sent that. I feel dirty now having said a few untoward things about the lack of insight in Butcher's commentary.

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:50 am

Hmm. Archer off immediately ? Leach on. I'd have given Jofra one more , myself. Can put his feet up in fifteen minutes anyway...
Lunch , not tea , of course.

Still we will see what Leach can get out of this .

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Post by alfie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:54 am

king_carlos wrote:Butcher made the exact same point about roughing up the ball and pitch just as I sent that. I feel dirty now having said a few untoward things about the lack of insight in Butcher's commentary.

Yeah I think you and Butch are probably on the money there...

Just prefer to try the basic methods first to get wickets - especially with the openers both out and two (important) bars new to the crease. Ah well - short experiment anyway with both spinners on now...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:56 am

Jofra’s first spell in Asia, or any cricket, for months on end...

Gun

Great start providing by him for the spinners
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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 6:04 am

Yep an excellent first spell from Jof. Jimmy on the other hand was slightly off the money.

I wonder whether England will start the afternoon session with another short burst from the seamers or try to give the spinners a prolonged twirl?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 07 Feb 2021, 6:06 am

Stokes limping at the end of that over before lunch...eek. Lets hope that’s not anything Fingers Crossed
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Post by eirebilly Sun 07 Feb 2021, 7:06 am

Archer is having a great spell here, really teasing Kohli.
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Post by JDizzle Sun 07 Feb 2021, 7:09 am

Definite sign of reverse on that ball where Archer went past the Kohli edge. Promising.

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