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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Fri 05 Feb 2021, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Rum sort of field for Nadeem to Sibley...two short covers ???

Not noted for getting caught there , is he ? Strange theory...

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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 5:26 am

Frustrating to see Sibley get out. Started well with a solid defence, but Ashwin turned to a leg-stump line/round the wicket, tempted Sibley into playing shots, and there's the result.

England's bowlers were, of course, playing to a less favourable set of rules yesterday when the exact same thing was called as 'not out'.

Can Root do something amazing again?

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Post by eirebilly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 5:36 am

Ans that is exactly what i feared...

England will struggle to make 200 from here.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 5:37 am

Now England are in deep trouble.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 5:37 am

Duty281 wrote:Frustrating to see Sibley get out. Started well with a solid defence, but Ashwin turned to a leg-stump line/round the wicket, tempted Sibley into playing shots, and there's the result.

England's bowlers were, of course, playing to a less favourable set of rules yesterday when the exact same thing was called as 'not out'.

Can Root do something amazing again?

Not today, alas. Sweep not coming off then and at 23/3 England are heading for a horror day , I fear.

Pitch of Doom might be it today.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 5:50 am

A little surprised that two wickets have fallen to attacking shots rather early in this innings. I get that you don't want the bowlers to settle ; and indeed I'm in favour of Root's "busy" approach. But as we've seen how much easier it is to bat against the older ball I'd have thought they'd have been a bit more selective early on.
Hard to complain about someone who has hit three big hundreds in a row ! As said on Comms , he's hardly mis hit a sweep in three matches. But I'd have preferred they made India work a bit harder for their wickets rather than trying to take the attack to them so
emphatically in these early overs.

329 looking a long way off.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:06 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Struggle to see anything but an india win from here on, a magnificent knock from Rohit ably supported by Rahane with a dogged effort. Moeen not great, not Broad’s finest day, Leach and Stone bowled well albeit not huge amounts to show for it for either. Happy for Stone, not sure his talent has ever been in doubt, just keeping him on the field for literally two games in a row at times. He’s surely one they’ll want to take to Australia in the winter, if he is fit

Did mention pre game that I was worried about Stokes’s fitness to bowl, and he clearly isn’t fully healthy. That middle session a good example of where a fully fit Stokes was needed imo, a partnership breaker/short stuff spell was needed when Rohit was going. Hopefully it’s a build up thing and he’ll be firing come the third test

If Root was getting it to spit and spin with a 76 over old ball in that last session...then I dread to think what playing Ashwin will be like. He’ll be like a kid at Christmas tomorrow morning!

Ashwin currently enjoying opening his Xmas presents - really not sure what anybody saw yesterday to suggest this wouldn’t be the case today tbh, was clear this was essentially a day 4/5 pitch already
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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:08 am

England have got out of deeper holes in recent years, I suppose. Patel and Ashwin bowling excellently on a very helpful surface, Lawrence's battling ended on the last ball of the session.

Might be a little easier to bat in the afternoon session against a softer ball, we'll see.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:16 am

To cap off a near perfect session for India , Lawrence falls to the last ball before lunch for a tortured nine...
39/4 . Need another 91 to avoid the follow on. Not sure they'll make it.
Did think even quite early yesterday that India , through Rohit , were taking control of the match , given the way the pitch appeared to be heading. Even more clear now.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:26 am

Duty281 wrote:England have got out of deeper holes in recent years, I suppose. Patel and Ashwin bowling excellently on a very helpful surface, Lawrence's battling ended on the last ball of the session.

Might be a little easier to bat in the afternoon session against a softer ball, we'll see.

Might be ...but the way they're going it might be down to Broad and Leach enjoying those better batting conditions Smile

I am usually an optimistic soul but struggling to see a route back from here. And I doubt it is going to rain...

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:59 am

Ashwin on fire...cleans up Stokes with a beautiful piece of bowling clap

52/5 as Foakes walks in to a real crisis... This could be all over today .


78 needed to make India bat again. Not much after these two unless Moeen can turn back the clock...

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:22 am

Axar supporting Ashwin well here ...some very tricky deliveries coming off this pitch.
Pleased to see Pope hasn't panicked under all this pressure. He's mixing diligent defence with quick singles and ready to take runs whenever offered. Still early in his career ; but he keeps developing his game.
Foakes OK so far. 76/5.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:35 am

This is a pretty diabolical test pitch, it's not a good look when it's unplayable on day 2.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:38 am

Pretty good so far for India, could catch the action only in parts. Was a disastrous start in the morning with 2 down for 1, but Pant pushed them beyond 325. Axar didn't do anything with the bat and Ishant kind of disappointed, he usually doesn't do that. Usually they had to earn his wicket. Kuldeep looked comfortable against spin, but Pant shouldn't have exposed him against Stone early in, and the impressive quick packed off Kuldeep and Siraj in 4 balls to take a deserving 3 wickets.
Ishant then gave India a fabulous start with a first over strike, and then Ashwin did unleash his bag of tricks to take out 3 so far. Axar got a real big first test wicket, when he got Joe Root to mishit a sweep. Like Cheteshwar Pujara playing a bad shot to get out, Root sweeping and getting out has become a rare thing in the game.
Pope looking good, and Foakes doing a good job so far.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:41 am

Axar doing a reasonable impersonation of Ravindra Jadeja. Been disciplined enough, and and is using the natural variation from the pitch. But Jadeja, with each delivery Axar is bowling here that is kicking up or beating the bat, I keep wondering about Jadeja. Would have been one of those competitions between him and Ashwin out there!

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:43 am

Axar doesn't seem to change his pace as much as Jadeja does, and not enough changes with the release points. Jadeja of late, had started experimenting with his flight as well, though that wasn't his original strength to start with. Hopefully Axar will learn. Does look better than Nadeem though.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:44 am

Soul Requiem wrote:This is a pretty diabolical test pitch, it's not a good look when it's unplayable on day 2.
Not really an unplayable pitch. Challenging, yes, by no means unplayable. You need to play spin well, you need to have multiple options against spin if you are to survive on this one.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:46 am

Batting looking easier out there, with the older ball. Kuldeep releasing the pressure a bit, Kohli should attempt to stop these singles. Let the batsmen take the risk if they are to move the scoreboard. Far too many singles being given away currently.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:50 am

msp83 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:This is a pretty diabolical test pitch, it's not a good look when it's unplayable on day 2.
Not really an unplayable pitch. Challenging, yes, by no means unplayable. You need to play spin well, you need to have multiple options against spin if you are to survive on this one.

Sorry but that's just nonsense, when you've got Alastair Cook bemoaning the state of the pitch you know it's not up to scratch.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:51 am

Siraj on, and strikes first ball to get Pope! His first ball at home!

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:52 am

Soul Requiem wrote:This is a pretty diabolical test pitch, it's not a good look when it's unplayable on day 2.

Yes , I think it is a little too unfriendly towards batsmen , too early in a supposed five day game. Even yesterday it was doing quite a lot - I think England rather failed to take advantage of the conditions ; perhaps they were spooked by Rohit's onslaught? But I think the 329 by India was considerably over par , despite the rapid wind up this morning.
Don't mind a pitch helping the spinners. But you'd prefer to see things move a little more slowly over the span of a few days than see dust kicking up virtually from the off. Unlike pitches that seam a lot early , you know this type is never going to get any easier to bat on ...

Oh dear ...that is a fantastic catch by the oft-criticised Pant clap

Pope gloving Siraj's first ball down leg and Pant has done brilliantly to make it . Having a fine match !

End of a promising effort from Pope. 87/6 and the hole gets deeper...

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:52 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
msp83 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:This is a pretty diabolical test pitch, it's not a good look when it's unplayable on day 2.
Not really an unplayable pitch. Challenging, yes, by no means unplayable. You need to play spin well, you need to have multiple options against spin if you are to survive on this one.

Sorry but that's just nonsense, when you've got Alastair Cook bemoaning the state of the pitch you know it's not up to scratch.
Alastair Cook might have done better on this track.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:53 am

Or Kevin Pietersen for that matter, though he may have struggled a bit against Axar!

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Post by eirebilly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:54 am

England were due a collapse in fairness. Its not an easy track to bat on unless you are very adapt at playing spin. I would put this down to excellent bowling from India more than the conditions of the track myself.

Pant is having a bit of a Midas game as well behind the stumps.
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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:56 am

Moeen Ali had a good time with the bat when they came last time round. He leaked runs a plenty, but came away with 4 wickets. What has he got with the bat here? He has a pretty decent overall record against India with bat and ball.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:58 am

eirebilly wrote:England were due a collapse in fairness. Its not an easy track to bat on unless you are very adapt at playing spin. I would put this down to excellent bowling from India more than the conditions of the track myself.

Pant is having a bit of a Midas game as well behind the stumps.

To be honest the bowlers don't need to do a lot because the spin is so inconsistent off the pitch, if it's consistent it's then playable whereas this isn't.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:03 am

If Moeen Ali keeps his head together, he is not easy to get out but more often than not he gets himself out. I am hoping today is the day that Moeen keeps his control and at least Gets England close to 200. Foakes batting quite well so there is still hope.
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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:04 am

Ah that's unfortunate for Pope. He'd fought so well against the spinners to get into the twenties and gets out to Siraj. Fantastic catch by Pant who has been much maligned for his keeping.

Pope and Foakes were just starting to show that if you get past the first 30 overs then it does quiet down a little bit with a softer ball that doesn't bite into the pitch as much.

Rohit batted in a different class yesterday but retrospectively Pujara also played a very important hand fighting through 90 minutes in the toughest conditions to set a foundation that Rahane could get in and play an innings from. They showed that if you fight past the early overs with good players still out there then you can score runs on a Bunsen. It's a minefield but at the end of the day India have bowled and batted much better on it.

I'd also say that I don't think batting here is anymore unplayable than a Duke ball, overhead conditions and a touch of grass on the pitch at Trent Bridge. Subcontinent teams get criticised for bunsens but I'd argue England are the only team outside the subcontinent that has a similar degree of home advantage due to conditions in Test cricket. The counterargument there will be that India have prepared this pitch whereas England can't prepare overhead conditions conducive to swing. It's still inarguable in my opinion that the Duke ball and English weather leads to periods in every English summer where conditions are as alien for visiting batsmen as this has been for England.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:06 am

Kuldeep bowling a bit too short here. He has the tools to threaten both edges, but the length is so key. Hasn't got it quite right as yet. Think its time to bring Ashwin back on.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:08 am

Still 43 to save the follow on. Foakes is playing well , but Moeen is surely the only other one left who can hope to make any serious runs on this this.
If they get the opportunity , do India enforce the follow on ? I reckon I would : apart from anything else , not sure most of their batsmen will really want to have to try their luck on this strip unless they have to Smile

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:12 am

eirebilly wrote:If Moeen Ali keeps his head together, he is not easy to get out but more often than not he gets himself out. I am hoping today is the day that Moeen keeps his control and at least Gets England close to 200. Foakes batting quite well so there is still hope.
We've seen some miracles from England in recent times but this one feels unlikely with the India spinners bowling so much better than England.

Fight past the follow on, tumble India for less than 150 batting again and start again with 10 wickets in hand and a view of just surviving those early overs when the harder ball really bites into the surface for the spinners is the only very, very faint hope.

Nightmare scenario for England would be India batting again and England are so shot that they bowl very poorly and end up spending another 90-odd overs in the field with their bowlers wearing themselves down for a lost cause.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:19 am

Certainly easier to bat as the ball gets older and softer - which highlights how important those four that fell before lunch were. If England were even four down now rather than six they'd be just about still in it. As it is one more will be about all India need to work for.

Foakes is playing very calmly. We knew he was good against spin from his previous efforts in Sri Lanka a couple of years back , but this has been impressive given the situation.

Ashwin back now. This will be testing...

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:20 am

msp83 wrote:Kuldeep bowling a bit too short here. He has the tools to threaten both edges, but the length is so key. Hasn't got it quite right as yet. Think its time to bring Ashwin back on.
Agree there. I love watching left-arm wrist-spin as it's rarely seen and exciting but Kuldeep isn't bowling his best here.

Sometimes wrist-spinners who turn the ball big can struggle on a Bunsen though. It was Anil Kumble's brilliance in home conditions of course. I always remember the words, "Kumble traded the legspinner's proverbial Yo-Yo for a spear", when I think of Anil. In conditions like this flight and lots of revs can be easier than bowling into the pitch and seeing the ball do just enough to beat he bat.

Ashwin has showed his experience and bowled at a different level to the other spinners thus far, ably supported by Patel and an early effort from Ishant. Somewhat similar to Rohit batting at a different level to everyone else so far, ably supported by Rahane and an early effort from Pujara.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:22 am

India lose their third review ...actually looked close to me , live. But ball is doing so much it is hard to judge sometimes.
Foakes did well to survive that over !

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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:32 am

As thought it is easier to bat out there once the ball's soft....but the damage was already done by then. The difference so far between the teams has been Rohit's great innings and, maybe, the toss, but little else. Oh and Moeen's atrocious bowling.


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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:33 am

Moeen gone, Axar strikes!.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:35 am

Duty281 wrote:As thought it is easier to bat out there once the ball's soft....but the damage was already done by then. The difference so far between the teams has been Rohit's great innings and, maybe, the toss, but little else.

And India have bowled better , I think.

Moeen gone now...another bowling change paying off for Kohli . Two for Axar now.

Stone in ahead of Leach or Broad ?

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:40 am

24 more to save having to bat again. And eight out now as Stone doesn't last long...

Wonder which would be the worse : getting rolled twice for an innings defeat early day three (out of our misery quickly) or toiling while India extend their lead for much of tomorrow before being tasked with batting two and a half days or make 400 (slow death) ?

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Post by eirebilly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:41 am

king_carlos wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If Moeen Ali keeps his head together, he is not easy to get out but more often than not he gets himself out. I am hoping today is the day that Moeen keeps his control and at least Gets England close to 200. Foakes batting quite well so there is still hope.
We've seen some miracles from England in recent times but this one feels unlikely with the India spinners bowling so much better than England.

Fight past the follow on, tumble India for less than 150 batting again and start again with 10 wickets in hand and a view of just surviving those early overs when the harder ball really bites into the surface for the spinners is the only very, very faint hope.

Nightmare scenario for England would be India batting again and England are so shot that they bowl very poorly and end up spending another 90-odd overs in the field with their bowlers wearing themselves down for a lost cause.

Some ask to avoid the follow on now. Foakes and Broad may as well have a swing and hope to get those last 20+ runs.


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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:44 am

24 to save the follow on. Only need 4 balls. Just Kapil Dev it fellas.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:50 am

king_carlos wrote:Ah that's unfortunate for Pope. He'd fought so well against the spinners to get into the twenties and gets out to Siraj. Fantastic catch by Pant who has been much maligned for his keeping.

Pope and Foakes were just starting to show that if you get past the first 30 overs then it does quiet down a little bit with a softer ball that doesn't bite into the pitch as much.

Rohit batted in a different class yesterday but retrospectively Pujara also played a very important hand fighting through 90 minutes in the toughest conditions to set a foundation that Rahane could get in and play an innings from. They showed that if you fight past the early overs with good players still out there then you can score runs on a Bunsen. It's a minefield but at the end of the day India have bowled and batted much better on it.

I'd also say that I don't think batting here is anymore unplayable than a Duke ball, overhead conditions and a touch of grass on the pitch at Trent Bridge. Subcontinent teams get criticised for bunsens but I'd argue England are the only team outside the subcontinent that has a similar degree of home advantage due to conditions in Test cricket. The counterargument there will be that India have prepared this pitch whereas England can't prepare overhead conditions conducive to swing. It's still inarguable in my opinion that the Duke ball and English weather leads to periods in every English summer where conditions are as alien for visiting batsmen as this has been for England.

Agree with your final paragraph Carlos - it gets trotted out when England tour the subcontinent but it’s no different to say the extreme of the pitch England played Ireland on at Lords. It’s test cricket, conditions are going to be different, it’d be boring as heck if every pitch was the same.
Crux of it is India have batted, bowled and fielded much better than England this game.

Would also say if I’m India I don’t enforce the follow on - get more overs in the legs of Leach in particular
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:55 am

I did forget to add however, I do think there is an argument for doing away with the toss and allowing the away side to choose what they wish to do. If there is a feeling of it being too slanted in favour of the home side, I’d think that’s the easiest resolution or fairest way to give the away team a shot.

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Good Golly I'm Olly

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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 20 Empty Re: England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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