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England - what next?

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Post by hugehandoff Sat 06 Feb 2021, 6:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 6:17 pm

Not a very scientific approach, but I have copied some reviews from ‘reputable’ sources on page 1 of the search engine with one review for his opposite number.  I think it is fair to say Youngs hasn’t been great, but playing behind a pack which hasn’t been great, in a team which hasn’t been great.  So far he has been outplayed – per the critics – by his opposite number.  So presumably he has done nothing to advance his case to be starting 9 for the Lions.  But he has a great opportunity tomorrow to pitch himself against probably the best no 9 in the world.

England v Scotland
Ben Youngs: Has played pretty well over recent times but was outplayed by Ali Price, who controlled the game far better from the base. Should be under pressure for the shirt from Dan Robson, who brought more urgency. 4
Ben Youngs
Looked to snipe every now and then and by no means England’s worst performer. A few aimless kicks but without much front-foot ball his options were limited. 6
Ali Price – 8
A torrid opening ten minutes when Maro Itoje charged down two of his box kicks, but he settled down to provide an effective link between his rampant forwards and his authoritative half-back partner, and he ran the show himself when Russell was in the sin bin.
England v Wales
Ben Youngs An impressive showing overall with one clever snipe in the first half and a delightful pass to free Slade. Then came up with the try. 7
Ben Youngs: Dummied his way over for a try that hauled England back into contention but it was not enough. Passing was sharper and he was lively around the fringes, but still some poor option taking. 6
KIERAN HARDY – 8
Can’t take all the blame for Itoje’s early charge down, with Wales’ pillar defenders – or absence thereof – leaving him exposed. England were clearly targeting the Scarlet and they got some change out of him in the first half. He didn’t let it rattle him and Wales started caterpillar rucking to protect him. His snip for his try was superb.

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Post by whatahitson Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:02 pm

mountain man wrote:Well you asked the exact question "who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?"

I answered you who I thought would start ahead of him, no-one knows as picking Lions team before 6N is even over is somewhat pointless as no-one knows what form players are in or whether injury will rule them out.

As for blaming lockdown on people - lots of fans, England fans - saying Youngs has been poor is frankly laughable. It's also nothing to do with last world cup, the fact is he hasn't played well since then. You're also on the insulting game as well saying it's lazy analysis from people who know little about rugby. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it appears you're saying if we don't rate Youngs and think he should be starting Test 9 for England and Lions then we're clueless. Hope I'm wrong.

If you thought it was a pointless question why did you answer it? That does perhaps give some insight in to how serious your answer is I suppose.

I think you're wrong in your judgement of Youngs, definitely. You're clearly holding him to a different standard than you are all the other players you've mentioned because the majority of them have been bang average and certainly no better than Youngs. Some of the players mentioned have either never shown the pedigree Youngs has or are so raw and inexperienced it's hard to even think of them as comparable. I think the reasons for why you're holding Youngs to a different yet unstated set of stanards are probably influenced by what I've said above. You need to get over the 'insult' as well. I apologised, if you don't want to accept that, then fine, but trying to wield it as a shaming tactic is far worse than the exaggerated use of rhetoric I employed in my opinion as it sounds like faux outrage to try to win an argument and as we're seeing in the wider world that's a terrible way to conduct yourself. If you're that offended then I'll apologise once again and say there's not much point continuing the discussion. You're not making a case for why the other 9s are ahead of Youngs in the Lions pecking order so I'm satisfied you were exaggerating yourself by suggesting some fairly 'out there' names and therefore it's deserving of a similarly exaggerated (but ideally less offensive) response. You weren't answering the question, as you said, you just wanted to hammer Ben Youngs with an over the top remark.

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Post by mountain man Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:14 pm

Blimey, you still on about this?
Question wasn't pointless, what I said was it's pointless is trying to pick Lions team now, of any position as too many variables still unknown like form and injury. Far better to wait until 6N is done and ideally towards end of domestic season then see who's in form and fit.

You also seem to think I'm unfairly hammering Youngs. Not at all, if you care to check a previous post of mine I said something along lines of Youngs isn't a bad 9 just not best available. That I stick with.

I also completely agree no point in continuing this discussion.

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Post by whatahitson Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:16 pm

Anyway, with all that apparently unserious chatter out of the way, it's important to remember than win or lose England have their eyes on a bigger prize than just six nations wins.

We have to hope that tours this summer go ahead as Jones has has put a lot of faith in the team not evolving until after the Lions tour and that calculated risk has obviously hurt them in this tournament. But if the Lions is postponed for a year then it is a risk with no clear benefit as England will likely improve their form next year, which means far more England players on tour than if it goes this summer, which means more fatigue, injuries, and far less opportunity to build up for the world cup in the 12 months prior to the tournament in France.

Given how Jones has set a template already, by treating the 2018 AIs like a mini world cup with limited rest and recovery days to simulate a group stage, while targeting the big games against New Zealand and Ireland to see what it takes to manage the work load while still putting in world class performances against the toughest opposition, any disruption to that template could be devastating for this England side.

In short, if the Lions tour is postponed, England are in trouble, and Eddie Jones need to completely overhaul the preparation of his team. That is of far bigger concern than whether or not he wins the next two games. England could finish 5th and lose heavily - if the Lions tour goes ahead then it would be a far better outcome than if England had ground their way to a grand slam this year yet the Lions tour gets postponed to 2022.

England need a development tour to bring these new players on outside the harsh media spotlight of lockdown life, where everyone is quicker to anger and abuse (for Youngs, see Genge and Sonja) for no good reason other than their own personal frustration, and they need the 12 months before the world cup to start preparing the squad for the demands of a world cup tournament. England's group draw is by far the best they could have reasonably hoped for so basically they are going to have to learn to play 3 big knockout games back to back. 2022 needs to be about preparing for that, not managing the return to fitness of 10-15 players who have been heavily involved in a Lions tour against South Africa.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:54 pm

mountain man wrote:Blimey, you still on about this?
Question wasn't pointless, what I said was it's pointless is trying to pick Lions team now, of any position as too many variables still unknown like form and injury. Far better to wait until 6N is done and ideally towards end of domestic season then see who's in form and fit.

You also seem to think I'm unfairly hammering Youngs. Not at all, if you care to check a previous post of mine I said something along lines of Youngs isn't a bad 9 just not best available. That I stick with.

I also completely agree no point in continuing this discussion.

When I said earlier there are people pretending to support England I wasn't talking about you. Hint.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:11 pm

On topic guys

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:12 pm

Just helping out the newbies pooly.

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Post by whatahitson Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Blimey, you still on about this?
Question wasn't pointless, what I said was it's pointless is trying to pick Lions team now, of any position as too many variables still unknown like form and injury. Far better to wait until 6N is done and ideally towards end of domestic season then see who's in form and fit.

You also seem to think I'm unfairly hammering Youngs. Not at all, if you care to check a previous post of mine I said something along lines of Youngs isn't a bad 9 just not best available. That I stick with.

I also completely agree no point in continuing this discussion.

When I said earlier there are people pretending to support England I wasn't talking about you. Hint.

Fair play for outing yourself as a Scot laughing

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just helping out the newbies pooly.

All about sharing the love Very Happy

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Post by lostinwales Fri 12 Mar 2021, 11:57 pm

A lot of random dislikes for a single nation thread

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 7:46 am

Its always good to have some guys drop in and off their opinion lost. Its not as if we don't have the room to swing a cat.

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Post by mountain man Sat 13 Mar 2021, 7:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Blimey, you still on about this?
Question wasn't pointless, what I said was it's pointless is trying to pick Lions team now, of any position as too many variables still unknown like form and injury. Far better to wait until 6N is done and ideally towards end of domestic season then see who's in form and fit.

You also seem to think I'm unfairly hammering Youngs. Not at all, if you care to check a previous post of mine I said something along lines of Youngs isn't a bad 9 just not best available. That I stick with.

I also completely agree no point in continuing this discussion.

When I said earlier there are people pretending to support England I wasn't talking about you. Hint.

OK

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 13 Mar 2021, 10:25 am

Some interesting bits on England's attacks in here.

https://youtu.be/vdb_EyP-q0M

Particularly why Billy is still being selected and deals with the myth that Ben Youngs is slow at the breakdown (unless he's playing for Tigers in which case glaciers move quicker).

First half of the video is very good, second a little waffly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 10:48 am

It is no myth that youngs dawdle s and delivers slow inaccurate ball though.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Mar 2021, 12:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is no myth that youngs dawdle s and delivers slow inaccurate ball though.
England's ruck speed has been one of their strong points though, as that video shows. The attack has actually been evolving this Six Nations compared to the game plan despised in the last Six Nations and ANC. The reason for two losses has been a dire penalty count (not a single of which has come from Youngs...) not the attacking game.

Youngs has been first choice for 3 successive England coaches, picked for two Lions tours and won however many trophies. I just don't but the shtick. There's always been players who get all the blame when their teams play badly but little praise when things go well. England have a few of them now.

The best argument for Youngs starting remains Robson's performances. Bright against Italy when they were beaten and good against France in the ANC final when a young side were goosed. Other than that he's been diabolical. His passing is no better, speed to the base worse, kicking average by Premiership standards and defence is non existent. Very little of the the attacking and support lines that he excels for with Wasps have been seen against international defences. The intercept against Wales was rabbit in headlights stuff. The ball's at the base perfectly presented and very quick front foot ball, he tries to play quickly as that's how England play, but he doesn't have the decision making to keep up and lobs an intercept with England's attacking structure perfectly set. If Youngs does that he gets eviscerated.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 12:57 pm

I'm not beyond saying when he's done well. Best he's played for a good 18 months last week. Let's hope he gets somewhere near it today as he's against the best.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:07 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It is no myth that youngs dawdle s and delivers slow inaccurate ball though.
England's ruck speed has been one of their strong points though, as that video shows. The attack has actually been evolving this Six Nations compared to the game plan despised in the last Six Nations and ANC. The reason for two losses has been a dire penalty count (not a single of which has come from Youngs...) not the attacking game.

Don't let facts get in the way of prejudice, now.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is no myth that youngs dawdle s and delivers slow inaccurate ball though.

The video shows that he operates at a speed to and from the ruck quicker than the average of the NZ sides in Super Rugby. His passing can be hit and miss but we've seen Robson's look even worse trying to play at the tempo Eddie is demanding.

Seriously the first half of that video is well worth a watch. Good analysis.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 3:00 pm

Watched it Sam.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 13 Mar 2021, 3:40 pm

Suggesting Robson's passing is worse than Youngs (it's not by the way...its much better, much much better) is just distracting that Youngs is dreadful at the core task of his role.

It's sometimes difficult to take the blinkers off when it's one of your players, I get the committed support.

Anyway.....let's hope he's due one of his 1 good game in 10.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Mar 2021, 3:52 pm

If Robson's passing is better he's yet to show it for England. That said his pass to Sheedy was miraculous in ways. 3 forwards running good lines to pick out and he hit the fly-half with a perfect flat ball across the front of the forward pod to the 10. Dupont would be proud. Just a shame the fly-half was wearing red.

As said above there have also been 3 successive England coaches and a successful Lions coach who clearly disagree that his basics are bad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 3:53 pm

I'd be 2 in 11 today. I think there will be a good team performance today though. Hopefully we see at least half an hour from Lawrence as we'll and more than 1 touch.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Mar 2021, 3:58 pm

I think Lawrence could work really well outside of Ford-Farrell. He doesn't carry in the same way as Manu but he offers plenty ball in hand and has a good passing game. With England seemingly trying to play more and go through phases very quickly he could be brilliant in that 13 shirt. I felt for him a lot being the fall guy for a poor team performance against Scotland. We lost that game due to discipline in the forwards and losing the kicking battle. Lawrence was the only guy in that backline who isn't used as a tactical kicking option and didn't give away a pen, tough break for the youngster.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:02 pm

Not basics....passing. His passing is dreadful.. surely this isn't news? Even to the most one eyed of Leicester fans.

I would say he has easily the worst pass in the Prem...all I'll say is he must be a great character around the group, you know, one of those players.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:03 pm

Yeah don't know what the coaches saw that they didn't like. Perhaps his positioning was a bit off but certainly no car crash by a long way. Yet to see him get decent ball and space. What he's done he's done very neatly for me.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:24 pm

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:46 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not basics....passing. His passing is dreadful.. surely this isn't news? Even to the most one eyed of Leicester fans.

I would say he has easily the worst pass in the Prem...all I'll say is he must be a great character around the group, you know, one of those players.  
His passing has never been as good as an Aaron Smith, Conor Murray or Yatuke Nagara. Dreadful is an overstatement though which is the point I'm getting at. Passing is part of the basics. I think it's valid to point out what he's achieved and how many coaches have rated him.

Worst pass in the Prem is just a nope. For starters there's a fella at Falcons with a pretty similar surname.

If England had a scrum-half with the pass of Smith or Murray available it would bother me more. As I've said a few times though I think Jones picking Youngs when his form has dipped needs to be put in perspective of the alternative options which aren't knocking down the door.

As I've said with Robson if his passing is strong he needs to start showing it as currently he's displayed little there and weaknesses elsewhere.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Mar 2021, 7:51 pm

Well better today...


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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Mar 2021, 8:30 pm

Much better. The big positive from a frustrating tournament is the attack evolving from where it was in the 2020 Six Nations and ANC. The forwards are carrying really well and we are seeing the Ford-Farrell axis working really well again to shift the point of attack very quickly.

I also thought England's fitness in the final 10 minutes showed today. Yes, there were players well short match sharpness at the start of the tournament due to the club situation but in terms of conditioning to play at a very fast pace for 80 minutes this side are right up there with the best when they have minutes under their belts. Short of another pandemic we hopefully wont have a similar situation to the start of this tournament again any time soon!

They still need to cut out the unforced errors to convert that developing attacking structure and fitness into points but there are a lot of promising signs in my opinion.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Mar 2021, 8:30 pm

A couple of words for players I've been critical of:

I thought Charlie Ewels had a really good game today. England have been really missing Kruis this tournament and Ewels did a pretty good job filling that role. He was strong at the lineout and from restart. Then carried solidly when needed. A busy performance and IMO he showed up better than Hill has thus far.

I also felt that Slade carried into contact really well. His defence is excellent and that left boot always an asset but his carrying hasn't held up that well against international defences when Manu isn't alongside him. He did very well in that regard today though.

Worth noting as well that Mako was strong in the scrum against a big French pack. He is weaker there than Marler at the scrum but much better than many give him credit for, once again showed that today.

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Post by mountain man Sat 13 Mar 2021, 8:38 pm

king_carlos wrote:A couple of words for players I've been critical of:

I thought Charlie Ewels had a really good game today. England have been really missing Kruis this tournament and Ewels did a pretty good job filling that role. He was strong at the lineout and from restart. Then carried solidly when needed. A busy performance and IMO he showed up better than Hill has thus far.

I also felt that Slade carried into contact really well. His defence is excellent and that left boot always an asset but his carrying hasn't held up that well against international defences when Manu isn't alongside him. He did very well in that regard today though.

Worth noting as well that Mako was strong in the scrum against a big French pack. He is weaker there than Marler at the scrum but much better than many give him credit for, once again showed that today.

Agree regarding Ewels and Slade, both had very good games. I thought Mako not quite his usual self and he appeared to struggle a bit in the scrum at times? His bro was very good though and carried strongly all 80 mins, LCD was excellent and deserves to keep starting spot.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 13 Mar 2021, 9:24 pm

Agree on LCD. He just looks a much better player than George at the moment. His throwing at the lineout has really come on aswell.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 13 Mar 2021, 11:37 pm

Never thought I'd say it but Ewels looked international quality today, a much better performance than anything we've seen from Hill. It's sometimes misleading when players are pivotal in dominant club teams, Exeter are a prime example of that.

Slade as variously stated carried very well today, some of that can be attributed however to France having two converted wingers in the centre. For all the plaudits France have received a Tuilagi or a De Allende would steamroll Vakatawa despite his size.

The Sarries boys are looking match sharper now and should be in peak form for Ireland.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 14 Mar 2021, 12:54 am

Yes. But Ewels has been around the squad since 2016 and has 18 caps. Jonny Hill has only been around the squad since the autumn (although, and I didnt realise this, he's a year older than Ewels). It may take more time for him to adapt to internationals.

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Post by mountain man Sun 14 Mar 2021, 9:34 am

The Sarries boys are looking match sharper now and should be in peak form for Ireland.

Yep, despite loss to Wales Saracens players looked sharper and yesterday pretty much back on form. Mako seemed to me to struggle at times in scrum but maybe that was just pressure from France? Even Daley looked on form when he came on, I really hope Malins starts again against Ireland. Have Daley on bench again as impact sub, likewise George.
Not sure any changes will be made to be honest assuming all fit, all players used yesterday did well. Be nice to see Odogwu get bench spot but who then misses out? Daley will be there, Robson has to be as 9, the only other assuming 5/3 split would be Lawrence which would be harsh.

Also just checked penalty count, 12 against England 8 France. Most came after first 20 minutes, it's generally accepted less than 10 is doing pretty good so England still need to improve discipline.

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Post by whatahitson Sun 14 Mar 2021, 3:01 pm

mountain man wrote:Also just checked penalty count, 12 against England 8 France. Most came after first 20 minutes, it's generally accepted less than 10 is doing pretty good so England still need to improve discipline.

The ref was Poopie. England's discipline was vastly better than the other games.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 14 Mar 2021, 3:30 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Never thought I'd say it but Ewels looked international quality today, a much better performance than anything we've seen from Hill. It's sometimes misleading when players are pivotal in dominant club teams, Exeter are a prime example of that.

He's taken his time. 19 caps over four years. Hopefully one of those coming of age games where something just clicks and the player steps up a level. Johnny Hill has looked twice the player at club level but England play at a much higher tempo than Chiefs do so his fitness might be being pushed to the limit. At international level everything is under the microscope so the little things he'd have got away with at club level he won't in an England shirt. Hopefully it's a learning curve and we see Hill step up as Ewels did yesterday.

Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis are all into their 30s we do need to develop the next set of locks through so hopefully this period helps that.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 14 Mar 2021, 3:43 pm

Amazing what a start does for a player..... Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Mar 2021, 8:34 am

Always liked Ewel! The basics of our 2nd row went pretty well. We didn't really attack the French throw much, though this could have been to ensure that we gave away no silly pens as we did last week and just try and pressurise them into mistakes. When you have itoje able to block box kicks at will seemingly you have to assume not enough protection for don't at rucks was spotted by the coaches.

Still wouldn't mind underhill coming back for Ireland as not sure Wilson is quite up to speed, or to try Martin.

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defence than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:13 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defense than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.
Disagree there.

Daly showed in his sub appearance what Eddie values...he attacked with pace, hit the gaps that were appearing. On his day i value Daly as a far better back 3 option than Malins....if only his defense was better.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:14 am

How good is Curry though. Best flanker in the world? Must be in the top 3 certainly.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:19 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:How good is Curry though. Best flanker in the world? Must be in the top 3 certainly.

Far too good for a 22 year old, he's always been a big guy but he's getting more physical all the time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:21 am

Curry is a fabulous player. Openside is probably at its strongest as I've seen it in terms of active players but for me yes, I wouldn't have anyone else.

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Post by mountain man Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:25 am

Malins didn't quite have the impact we all hoped for but I'd like to see him start again at 15. Daly in fairness had his best game for what seems like years when he came on, trouble is he's been way too ineffective previously.
I can't any changes being made really for Ireland, be nice for Odogwu to get a bench spot but then who'd miss out? Maybe Underhill back on flank as Wilson did nothing wrong but still hasn't made a big mark on a game as yet.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:36 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:How good is Curry though. Best flanker in the world? Must be in the top 3 certainly.

Far too good for a 22 year old, he's always been a big guy but he's getting more physical all the time.
He looks more like Pocock every time I see him. Either his shirts are shrinking or he's growing.

If he stays fit Curry will be an England great. He's the best flanker I've seen for England other than Richard Hill. As a Tigers fan I don't say it lightly but Curry's best has surpassed Neil Back's best in my eyes.

He's always been a natural with his breakdown work and tackling but the way he improves parts of his game so quickly is remarkable. England need a third lineout jumper to make their RWC back row work - Curry adapts to it. England need more carriers making yards in heavy traffic - Curry adapts to it.

Ben is catching up with that physicality now as well. He got injured around the time that Tom broke into the England squad and seemed to gain a couple of stone overnight. Ben came back from the injury noticeably lighter and playing England U20s. It definitely set him back in his physical development but the improvements in that area have been excellent in the last 18 months. With Willis sadly crocked, Curry and Underhill hopefully with the Lions (or rested if it's cancelled) I think Ben would be my starting openside if the summer tour goes ahead.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:41 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defense than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.
Disagree there.

Daly showed in his sub appearance what Eddie values...he attacked with pace, hit the gaps that were appearing. On his day i value Daly as a far better back 3 option than Malins....if only his defense was better.


Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:53 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defense than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.
Disagree there.

Daly showed in his sub appearance what Eddie values...he attacked with pace, hit the gaps that were appearing. On his day i value Daly as a far better back 3 option than Malins....if only his defense was better.


Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

I understand it was his first game...in an incredibly tough game v the French...he did well considering. Im just not sold as of yet. I havent been a club level either...id much prefer him as a 10.

But i will watch with interest.

It all just feels like we are still trying to shoehorn players in to that FB spot...im waiting for the genuine FB options to come through on the summer tour.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Mar 2021, 9:55 am

king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:How good is Curry though. Best flanker in the world? Must be in the top 3 certainly.

Far too good for a 22 year old, he's always been a big guy but he's getting more physical all the time.
He looks more like Pocock every time I see him. Either his shirts are shrinking or he's growing.

If he stays fit Curry will be an England great. He's the best flanker I've seen for England other than Richard Hill. As a Tigers fan I don't say it lightly but Curry's best has surpassed Neil Back's best in my eyes.

He's always been a natural with his breakdown work and tackling but the way he improves parts of his game so quickly is remarkable. England need a third lineout jumper to make their RWC back row work - Curry adapts to it. England need more carriers making yards in heavy traffic - Curry adapts to it.

Ben is catching up with that physicality now as well. He got injured around the time that Tom broke into the England squad and seemed to gain a couple of stone overnight. Ben came back from the injury noticeably lighter and playing England U20s. It definitely set him back in his physical development but the improvements in that area have been excellent in the last 18 months. With Willis sadly crocked, Curry and Underhill hopefully with the Lions (or rested if it's cancelled) I think Ben would be my starting openside if the summer tour goes ahead.

i hope the summer tour goes ahead...it'll be fascinating...

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Post by Poorfour Mon 15 Mar 2021, 10:00 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

I agree. Fullback, perhaps more than any other position, is about what they do off the ball. Malins didn't face much pressure from the high ball, which to me indicates he was covering the territory to close down the kicking options for France - in contrast to how teams have started targeting Daly repeatedly because they know they will win knock ons and have a chance to pressure him. I don't remember him being exposed much in defence - whereas Daly was regularly caught out of position. If you don't really notice a fullback in those circumstances, they are generally doing a decent job.

Daly looked more threatening in attack when he came on, but I think overall it was a fair trade off.
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Post by doctor_grey Mon 15 Mar 2021, 10:05 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defense than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.
Disagree there.

Daly showed in his sub appearance what Eddie values...he attacked with pace, hit the gaps that were appearing. On his day i value Daly as a far better back 3 option than Malins....if only his defense was better.


Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

I understand it was his first game...in an incredibly tough game v the French...he did well considering. Im just not sold as of yet. I havent been a club level either...id much prefer him as a 10.

But i will watch with interest.

It all just feels like we are still trying to shoehorn players in to that FB spot...im waiting for the genuine FB options to come through on the summer tour.
Eddie Jones is looking for a hybrid 4-15.....

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