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ENGLAND vs ITALY - 13/02/21 - build up / match thread

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Post by TightHEAD Mon 08 Feb 2021, 10:58 am

First topic message reminder :

ENGLAND vs ITALY - 13/02/21

Kick off - HQ - 14:15

England need to bounce back well, good time for Italy to turn up and disrupt their plans as best they can.

Line ups

England: Daly; Watson, Slade, Farrell,May; Ford, Youngs (Mr Untouchable); M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, B Vunipola??.

Replacements: George, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Earl, Willis, Robson, Malins.

Italy: Trulla; Sperandio, Brex, Canna, Ioane; Garbisi, Varney; Lovotti, Bigi (capt), Riccioni, Lazzaroni, Sisi, Negri, Meyer, Lamaro.

Replacements: Lucchesi, Fischetti, Zilocchi, Cannone, Ruzza, Palazzani, Allan, Mori.


Last edited by TightHEAD on Fri 12 Feb 2021, 1:39 pm; edited 7 times in total
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Post by dummy_half Fri 12 Feb 2021, 1:55 pm

Two things I want explaining:
1 - Why we are playing a very good 2nd row forward as a flanker when he's previously shown he can't cut it as a 6 internationally?

2 - Who is going to run the ball in the midfield? Not only do none of the centres carry the ball into contact effectively, the back row only has Curry with the pace to get into the wider channels, and he'll be too busy doing three players work at the breakdown. You could probably get away with Ford-Farrell-Slade a bit if you had Earls-Curry-Simmonds as your back row.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Feb 2021, 2:06 pm

1. Don't like it. Don't like it all. Far too slow especially when in combo with Vunipola. However clearly there to strengthen the lineout. Annoying in itself as Willis is a good front of the line out jumper.
2. Don't necessarily need to be amazing but it would help if Youngs snipes more and centres do hold at least one person before kicking or passing. Variation needed.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 12 Feb 2021, 3:02 pm

3 things that might (finally) mix things up for England:

1) unexpected injuries to Youngs, Farrell and Billy Vunipola. Note that I don't wish for any player to get an injury, I just feel that these 3 in particular are holding England back.
2) A red card. I want to see how this team reacts to such a thing. They were brilliant a few years ago against Argentina - I imagine that they could fall apart.
3) Non-Captain leaders finally standing up and making decisions. Farrell may be the captain but his leadership is starting to flounder. Let's see who actually puts their hands up.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 12 Feb 2021, 4:03 pm

lostinwales wrote:You can't write off Italy so easily. They will test England. I don't expect them to win, but they are capable of causing damage. At the same time I am not sure how ready this version of England is to take advantage of the mistakes that Italy will inevitably make.

Italy retained the ball and went through phases pretty well in the first half against France, but they didn't score largely because France's defence is excellent. If England miss tackles like they did against Scotland, it might be a different story. I don't expect that they'll miss anywhere near as many tackles, but it's worth making the point that most sides would struggle against France's defence. On the other hand, Italy's defence is nowhere near as good as Scotland's, so there should be a few tries on either side.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 12 Feb 2021, 7:18 pm

Interesting excerpts from The Telegraph today, Geech on Friday:
Sir Ian McGeechan wrote: England have taken a pounding all week for their dire performance against Scotland at Twickenham last Saturday, and I am absolutely fascinated now to see how they respond to that criticism.

Eddie may have stuck by his core group for tomorrow’s game against Italy (George Ford coming in at 10 is obviously the big point of difference but generally it’s the same players who have done so well for Eddie in the past). But England absolutely, categorically must show more tactical variety this week.

There will be no excuses allowed against a very inexperienced Italy team. Last week England failed to get their backline involved in any meaningful way, giving away possession with poor tactical kicks, handling errors and a high penalty count. They must show more variety this week, more ambition, particularly from set piece ball.  

Again, it just means that this England team have to show up now. Eddie has backed them to deliver and they have to. Even more than the result (which should be a given) it’s about their performance.
Agree with Geech 100%. But it cannot be a one off just to shut up the critics. If they play well and win, what does it actually mean? If they play poorly, or use the same tactics, the the criticism and pressure will really start to build. Wales are next up after Italy. We shall see.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 13 Feb 2021, 1:19 am

doctor_grey wrote:Interesting excerpts from The Telegraph today, Geech on Friday:
Sir Ian McGeechan wrote: England have taken a pounding all week for their dire performance against Scotland at Twickenham last Saturday, and I am absolutely fascinated now to see how they respond to that criticism.

Eddie may have stuck by his core group for tomorrow’s game against Italy (George Ford coming in at 10 is obviously the big point of difference but generally it’s the same players who have done so well for Eddie in the past). But England absolutely, categorically must show more tactical variety this week.

There will be no excuses allowed against a very inexperienced Italy team. Last week England failed to get their backline involved in any meaningful way, giving away possession with poor tactical kicks, handling errors and a high penalty count. They must show more variety this week, more ambition, particularly from set piece ball.  

Again, it just means that this England team have to show up now. Eddie has backed them to deliver and they have to. Even more than the result (which should be a given) it’s about their performance.
Agree with Geech 100%.  But it cannot be a one off just to shut up the critics.  If they play well and win, what does it actually mean?  If they play poorly, or use the same tactics, the the criticism and pressure will really start to build.  Wales are next up after Italy.  We shall see.

Unfortunately, if they play well and win then it will be put down to the opposotion being Italy. But they have to show more than in recent games. I'll take any score and we all love seeing May running the ball in from 60m+, but I'd honestly prefer to see a couple of well constructed tries created through patience and pressure. A couple of years back England were brilliant at scoring once they got into the 22. That also seems to have stopped.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:17 pm

Hopefully this will be an improvement.

Dallaglio seems to think it will be a big England performance which given his usual level of insight means we might be looking at another loss!

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Post by Scottrf Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:18 pm

Bizarre deliberate knock on...

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Post by miltonkeynesengland Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

Forza Italia

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

Not a good start on the discipline front.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

Shocking start.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

Forward pass for sure by miles.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

I give up. I am supporting France.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:19 pm

Great start... for Italy.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:20 pm

Come on Italy!!!

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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:20 pm

Great start Italy

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:20 pm

Wow...

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:20 pm

Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol

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Post by RiscaGame Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:20 pm

I bet England, Scotland and France to score first try this weekend and it’s down the toilet in two minutes.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:21 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol
It was 2m forward, can easily see with the lines on the pitch.

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Post by tigertattie Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:21 pm

Well that’s not what England wanted.

Still think England will win comfortably
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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:22 pm

Terrible pass, it was open there

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:22 pm

That was very easy for Italy. 2 penalties in two minutes is my biggest worry. If the penalty count is as high as last weekend then we are in trouble.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:23 pm

BigGee wrote:Terrible pass, it was open there
Executing that well is what Daly brought to England at his best. Painful.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:24 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol
It was 2m forward, can easily see with the lines on the pitch.

Did look forward. Slightly surprised they didnt go back and look.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:25 pm

king_carlos wrote:
BigGee wrote:Terrible pass, it was open there
Executing that well is what Daly brought to England at his best. Painful.

That's what hes in there for....if he csnt do that he must go ....

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol
It was 2m forward, can easily see with the lines on the pitch.

Did look forward. Slightly surprised they didnt go back and look.
The overhead angle I thought looked forward but the side on one looked OK to me. Direction of the hands was definitely backwards.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:26 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol
It was 2m forward, can easily see with the lines on the pitch.

Did look forward. Slightly surprised they didnt go back and look.
The overhead angle I thought looked forward but the side on one looked OK to me. Direction of the hands was definitely backwards.

The last pass? Not sure on that.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BigGee wrote:Terrible pass, it was open there
Executing that well is what Daly brought to England at his best. Painful.

That's what hes in there for....if he csnt do that he must go ....
No arguments here but I'm yet to be certain we have an alternative ready for international rugby that does the basics much better. Steward or Hodge could definitely get there.

I think Malins form deserves starts but I'm not fully convinced he's more solid defensively. His Prem performances are warranting selection and Daly's recent performances haven't so I'd still hope Malins will get chances if Daly doesn't improve.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:30 pm

They all all offside with hands on the floor.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol
It was 2m forward, can easily see with the lines on the pitch.

Did look forward. Slightly surprised they didnt go back and look.
The overhead angle I thought looked forward but the side on one looked OK to me. Direction of the hands was definitely backwards.

The last pass? Not sure on that.
Yeah the one to Ioane. The higher angle looked suspect but the second angle they showed from the side looked OK to me, we only saw each angle once though I think.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:31 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Forward pass for sure by miles.
Lol
It was 2m forward, can easily see with the lines on the pitch.

Did look forward. Slightly surprised they didnt go back and look.
The overhead angle I thought looked forward but the side on one looked OK to me. Direction of the hands was definitely backwards.

The last pass? Not sure on that.
Yeah the one to Ioane. The higher angle looked suspect but the second angle they showed from the side looked OK to me, we only saw each angle once though I think.

I had a quick rewind. That England try shouldn't have stood either.

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Post by tigertattie Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:32 pm

Knock on in the build up and a double movement so both sides getting some rub of the green
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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:32 pm

If they look at May's chase at the start of all that I have a feeling he knocked that on so perhaps a potential forward pace has been cancelled out!

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:33 pm

Definitely double movement.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:35 pm

It's not been perfect but England are running the ball which is great to see.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:35 pm

Well matched sides today

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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:35 pm

England still giving away to many penalties

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:36 pm

Bit of a bun fight at the breakdown.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:37 pm

Such a dumb penalty from LCD. The breakdown is an area he usually excels and a reason I wanted him starting with Underhill injured but that was just poor.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:38 pm

Youngs. That is all.

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Post by BamBam Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:38 pm

Literally wtf is wrong with Youngs passing. I’m not even a massive critic of his but he's put a couple head height then completely butchered the one after the line out

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Post by Duty281 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:38 pm

That horrific pass from Youngs sums up another poor start from England. Still haven't adapted to the refereeing either.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:40 pm

Duty281 wrote:That horrific pass from Youngs sums up another poor start from England. Still haven't adapted to the refereeing either.

Hes got some odd interpretations too tbf. Havent thought LCD s lineouts are that straight on the last 2 throws.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:40 pm

Youngs so far has been a colossal improvement on whatever sport Robson thought he was playing for 30 minutes last weekend. He's been pushing the tempo very well up till then. He does usually play better in partnership with Ford but then most scrum-halves do.

That pass was terrible though.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:41 pm

Jeez these are top flight professional players and they cant pass a ball!!!

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:42 pm

Italy need to turn the screw, this England team is there for the taking.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:43 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Italy need to turn the screw, this England team is there for the taking.

Best idea to wum before your match? Annoyingly I fancy ireland to win anyway but dont descend to miaow levels.

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Post by tigertattie Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:44 pm

Another missed knock on
tigertattie
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Post by Scottrf Sat 13 Feb 2021, 2:44 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Italy need to turn the screw, this England team is there for the taking.
Timing.

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