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ENGLAND vs ITALY - 13/02/21 - build up / match thread

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Post by TightHEAD Mon 8 Feb - 10:58

First topic message reminder :

ENGLAND vs ITALY - 13/02/21

Kick off - HQ - 14:15

England need to bounce back well, good time for Italy to turn up and disrupt their plans as best they can.

Line ups

England: Daly; Watson, Slade, Farrell,May; Ford, Youngs (Mr Untouchable); M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, B Vunipola??.

Replacements: George, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Earl, Willis, Robson, Malins.

Italy: Trulla; Sperandio, Brex, Canna, Ioane; Garbisi, Varney; Lovotti, Bigi (capt), Riccioni, Lazzaroni, Sisi, Negri, Meyer, Lamaro.

Replacements: Lucchesi, Fischetti, Zilocchi, Cannone, Ruzza, Palazzani, Allan, Mori.


Last edited by TightHEAD on Fri 12 Feb - 13:39; edited 7 times in total
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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:09

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cannot believe a foul by italy taking out a great player has left us conceding a try. Awful.
Can someone who thinks it was foul play explain how it was foul play please...?

A horrible injury but one that happened in the course of a clearout that is currently considered legal and happens dozens of times in every match from all sides.

Yli cant play a player in any capacity when you've gone off your feet at a ruck.
As the laws are currently enforced the croc role when binding round the waist rather than neck is viewed as the clearing player being on his feet when he binds on the jackal. Both players then go off feet when they role.

As said I'm open to discussion about whether that law should be interpreted differently (I suffered a horrid injury myself from it) but as the laws are currently enforced that clearout happens dozens of times in every match. If that's foul play then both sides would have most their forwards in the bin right now.

To join a ruck you need to be on your feet. He isnt when he joins.  The spin tackle whatever you want to call it is fine but the fact he goes off his feet to join is a pen to england.
Again something that happens at practically every ruck. I think the player clearing him out is off his feet rather than the 'lifeguard' who rolls him. I think most fans are open to discussions about cleaning up the breakdown but suggesting that should be checked for foul play because Willis got injured is reffing due to consequence rather than the incident. Something that would have the same posters who think that should have been reviewed spitting feathers if it happened in a decision against England.


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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb - 16:10

I think I prefer Watson at 8 instead of Billy Cheeseburger.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb - 16:10

How dim our Genge and Sinckler.
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Post by BamBam Sat 13 Feb - 16:11

Keep up, Sinckler went off 5 mins ago

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:12

Farrell clothed that kick to the corner so bad it almost didn't make touch!

Same result as if he nailed it though I guess.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb - 16:12

The question still stands.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:13

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cannot believe a foul by italy taking out a great player has left us conceding a try. Awful.
Can someone who thinks it was foul play explain how it was foul play please...?

A horrible injury but one that happened in the course of a clearout that is currently considered legal and happens dozens of times in every match from all sides.

Yli cant play a player in any capacity when you've gone off your feet at a ruck.
As the laws are currently enforced the croc role when binding round the waist rather than neck is viewed as the clearing player being on his feet when he binds on the jackal. Both players then go off feet when they role.

As said I'm open to discussion about whether that law should be interpreted differently (I suffered a horrid injury myself from it) but as the laws are currently enforced that clearout happens dozens of times in every match. If that's foul play then both sides would have most their forwards in the bin right now.

To join a ruck you need to be on your feet. He isnt when he joins.  The spin tackle whatever you want to call it is fine but the fact he goes off his feet to join is a pen to england.
Again something that happens at practically every ruck. I think the player clearing him out is off his feet rather than the 'lifeguard' who rolls him. I think most fans are open to discussions about cleaning up the breakdown but suggesting that should be checked for foul play because Willis got injured is reffing due to consequence rather than the incident. Something that would have the same posters who think that should have been reviewed spitting feathers if it happened in a decision against England.

Given the tmo has been looking at it presumably she can simply say that's off feet so start with a pen england. I'm not saying it's a red simply it's a foul. I always thought I'm pretty fair with refs they have a hard job, mistakes are made.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:13

TightHEAD wrote:The question still stands.

They're not at all. Why do you ask.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:14

TightHEAD wrote:The question still stands.

What's the question how dim are they? In what regards?

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb - 16:15

From the little I saw, I saw poopie.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:16

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given the tmo has been looking at it presumably she can simply say that's off feet so start with a pen england. I'm not saying it's a red simply it's a foul. I always thought I'm pretty fair with refs they have a hard job, mistakes are made.
If they do that for every ruck with the state of the breakdown then the game would never get moving though.

Reviewing one ruck because Willis was unfortunate to get injured from what is (rightly or wrongly) a run of the mill breakdown would be reffing the consequence. Which I'm really not a fan of at all.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:17

Decent shift in tactics. The back row didnt look great to start with. Full back and scrum half still need to be reviewed. Not overly bothered because of the willis injury. Gutting.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb - 16:17

I can't see us winning another game unless our pathetic attitude and ill discipline improves.

Starts with our Captain imho.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 13 Feb - 16:17

Two well matched sides, home advantage and a couple of home decisions probably the difference on the day.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:18

TightHEAD wrote:I can't see us winning another game unless our pathetic attitude and ill discipline improves.

Starts with our Captain imho.

Question still unanswered.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 13 Feb - 16:19

Collapse2005 wrote:Two well matched sides, home advantage and a couple of home decisions probably the difference on the day.
Eyeroll

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:19

Collapse2005 wrote:Two well matched sides, home advantage and a couple of home decisions probably the difference on the day.

Catty comment.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:19

Good to get the win but a huge shame that Willis seems to have picked up a nasty injury.

I thought a fair few individuals were much improved for England and the attack functioned far better. There was also much more ambition in the tactics.

Farrell and Billy in particular were still very inconsistent and rusty. The back three at times was back to their fluid best as a unit, at other not so much. Curry and Itoje were back to their usual selves after a quiet game last weekend which is vital for England.

Overall I thought Cowan-Dickie was very good starting.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 13 Feb - 16:20

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Two well matched sides, home advantage and a couple of home decisions probably the difference on the day.

Catty comment.

Say what you see

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Post by BamBam Sat 13 Feb - 16:21

Gutted for Willis, genuinely gutted. To come back from one bad injury to this form was unbelievable, just hope he can do it again.

It was only Italy so not too much learnt for me. Didn't think our scrums were great so surprised at Sinckler MOM, would probably have given to Watson. Special mention to Collapse for keeping going for a full 80 mins

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb - 16:21

Poor performance

We take nothing from that game
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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:23

What does Farrell actually bring to this team?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:24

Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Alex Hepburn, David Ribbans.

Shadow squad. Assuming that willis is out of the tournament which sadly looks initially to be the case who do you being in?

Personally I'd be tempted by marchant and Mitchell.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb - 16:24

GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Farrell actually bring to this team?

Petty antics, butter fingers and poor leadership
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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 13 Feb - 16:25

well certainly better this week than last week. Well played ITALY, gave England a game/made England work for there points.

A week off now lets hope they (England) use this time to improve for the Wales game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:25

TightHEAD wrote:Poor performance

We take nothing from that game

Still an unanswered question then.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:26

TightHEAD wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Farrell actually bring to this team?

Petty antics, butter fingers and poor leadership

And still an unanswered question.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 13 Feb - 16:26

GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Farrell actually bring to this team?

I do think this every time I see him play, especially over the last year. He's Eddie's favourite and a big mouth in the dressing room, so he's not getting dropped anytime soon.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:27

No 7&1/2 wrote:Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Alex Hepburn, David Ribbans.

Shadow squad. Assuming that willis is out of the tournament which sadly looks initially to be the case who do you being in?

Personally I'd be tempted by marchant and Mitchell.

George Martin...give the lad senior experience.

Ideally I'd call up Steward from Leicester...

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Feb - 16:28

Very unlucky Jack Willis. He was on the plane for the Lions if he stayed fit.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb - 16:28

This is probably the first time since Eddie Jones has been in charge that both he and his captain have been on the receiving end of large scale, consistent criticism. If England play poorly in the next game, the pressure to make changes will mount.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:28

Farrell was great today. Thought it was slades best game for a long while as well. You can say it was Italy and rightly so but it was a clear change in tactics which brought the best out of them. How different did Robson look coming on with that mindset as well.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:28

BamBam wrote:Gutted for Willis, genuinely gutted. To come back from one bad injury to this form was unbelievable, just hope he can do it again.
The previous injury was his right knee I believe. Multiple ligament damage including a ruptured ACL. Horrid.

This one was his left knee. Just so unlucky. Pocock had multiple nasty knee injuries and came back though they did catch up with him eventually. Bad knee injuries are brutal for all rugby players but especially jackals as good as Willis.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:30

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Alex Hepburn, David Ribbans.

Shadow squad. Assuming that willis is out of the tournament which sadly looks initially to be the case who do you being in?

Personally I'd be tempted by marchant and Mitchell.

George Martin...give the lad senior experience.

Ideally I'd call up Steward from Leicester...

I want to see guys challenging immediately now. Martin looks a class act like. Yes steward at the moment again looks like he could make an impression. Bloody covid.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 13 Feb - 16:30

If Farrall was rested/dropped at any time who would step in to his boots?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:31

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Farrell actually bring to this team?

I do think this every time I see him play, especially over the last year. He's Eddie's favourite and a big mouth in the dressing room, so he's not getting dropped anytime soon.

I just ask because..

Hes not creative
I dont see his leadership when the games are a mess
He can't Ruck to save his life
Hes petty, like cheap shot again today..
Hes not a ball carrier?

We have better leaders in the team / squad and better 12s

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:33

majesticimperialman wrote:If Farrall was rested/dropped at any time who would step in to his boots?

Itoje captain and Slade to 12 Lawrence at 13...

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 13 Feb - 16:33

majesticimperialman wrote:If Farrall was rested/dropped at any time who would step in to his boots?

Ideally a centre and let us build an actual 10/12/13 combination.

I'd bring Marcus Smith and the 12/15 from Bristol in personally.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:34

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Alex Hepburn, David Ribbans.

Shadow squad. Assuming that willis is out of the tournament which sadly looks initially to be the case who do you being in?

Personally I'd be tempted by marchant and Mitchell.

George Martin...give the lad senior experience.

Ideally I'd call up Steward from Leicester...
Martin is a huge talent but has only played a handful of Premiership games and several of those at blindside rather than lock. I believe that Martin and Kpoku are two players who could break into the England squad before the next RWC but currently both need game time with their clubs.

That said Martin has just chased down Danny Care to make a try saving tackle in Tigers vs Quins.

I'd love Marchant to get a look in. If not Marchant then JJ. I think England need a running threat in midfield regardless of whether it's a crash ball carrier or an elusive runner.

Mitchell is a good player but I would prefer Randall getting minutes so not as concerned there.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:35

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Alex Hepburn, David Ribbans.

Shadow squad. Assuming that willis is out of the tournament which sadly looks initially to be the case who do you being in?

Personally I'd be tempted by marchant and Mitchell.

George Martin...give the lad senior experience.

Ideally I'd call up Steward from Leicester...

I want to see guys challenging immediately now. Martin looks a class act like. Yes steward at the moment again looks like he could make an impression. Bloody covid.

Whoever comes up wont be challenging for a start. So give Martin the shot as looks a real contender in the near future...

But yes I say again...Steward coming up would be better.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb - 16:36

The fact that Sarries are not playing and they are still being selected for England is having a massive affect on England's performances.

We look like a team that will be finishing mid-table at best.

Just not good enough.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:37

TightHEAD wrote:The fact that Sarries are not playing and they are still being selected for England is having a massive affect on England's performances.

We look like a team that will be finishing mid-table at best.

Just not good enough.

Still an unanswered question then. Going to assume your own question could have been directed at Genge, itoje , Lawes or watson as easily then.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:38

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Alex Hepburn, David Ribbans.

Shadow squad. Assuming that willis is out of the tournament which sadly looks initially to be the case who do you being in?

Personally I'd be tempted by marchant and Mitchell.

George Martin...give the lad senior experience.

Ideally I'd call up Steward from Leicester...

I want to see guys challenging immediately now. Martin looks a class act like. Yes steward at the moment again looks like he could make an impression. Bloody covid.

Whoever comes up wont be challenging for a start. So give Martin the shot as looks a real contender in the near future...

But yes I say again...Steward coming up would be better.

Not sure on the rules of calling players up directly on injury replacements. Personally like Steward alot.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 13 Feb - 16:44

Average performance from England, we go from one extreme to the other, ANC and last week kick everything, today, the box kick hardly used until later in the game. We still have the issue of no one who is a threat running a straight line to hold back the drift defence, so running everything is not the answer.

Daly is just not up to it at the moment, his tackling is worse than my grandmother's and she is 148 and long gone.

How many final passes were around the feet, May and Watson must be so frustrated, every time they had space in front of them the ball was around their ankles.

Feel for Willis, is he going to be another of those players that promise so much, but are stopped through continuous injuries?

The question of who should be 1st choice 9 was answered pretty well I thought.

Genge, apart from some brain farts, actually lived up to his nickname with some good carries. Perhaps someone should wind him up a bit more often.

Poor game from Mako and Billy, relative to their best anyway, Youngs and Farrell were again poor. Youngs passing has always been slow, but now is at usually along the floor. Daly, already said a defensive nightmare.
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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:44

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure on the rules of calling players up directly on injury replacements. Personally like Steward alot.
I believe that replacements for injuries can be made so presumably a back row will be called up to replace Willis. I'd happily see that be any of Simmonds, Dombrandt or Ted Hill. All very talented players in form.

They don't have to come from the shadow squad either which I think is making up numbers for training early in the week and giving exposure to youngsters rather than being next in line. For instance I believe Heyes is still in the shadow squad with Williams returning to Exeter now Sincks is available.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:48

Kc I'd like Hill in but preferably Dombrandt...give Billy some competition and a mobile fast 8.

Billy needs to drop a stone and get his fitness up

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:49

Would be nice if we can call directly up. Gives Kones a lot more options.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb - 16:55

Pros
Change of tactics to open it up more

Negatives
Billy V
Youngs
Farrell
Daly

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb - 16:55

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would be nice if we can call directly up. Gives Kones a lot more options.
Tom West was called up directly without being in the shadow squad when Marler dropped out before the Scotland game so I think they can.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb - 16:57

GeordieFalcon wrote:Pros
Change of tactics to open it up more

Negatives
Billy V
Youngs
Farrell
Daly

Thought vunipola and Farrell were much better myself. Completely due to tactics. They got more ball.

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