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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

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Post by Pal Joey Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:32 am

That was lightning speed from Foakes behind the stumps. Pant in slow motion by comparison.
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:32 am

Pant promoted to take the game back to the bowlers...

But to no avail. Stranded way down the pitch deceived by Leach ...and Foakes isn't missing out on that !

65/4. Or 260/4 , more pertinently...

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:39 am

king_carlos wrote:I think that one was clear cut.

The view from the leg side in the first innings 'stumping' was one of those where it was incredibly tight, but the stump cam I thought looked out.A picture from the off side not being available was, erm, odd.

A really good start for England though. Leach and Mo both bowling well thus far.

I heard they don't have a camera set up for that view...as you say , a bit strange. And yes , today's a bit easier to decide . Was still very close though , which highlights the importance of Foakes' quick hands.

Ha...even Foakes can't catch those ! Under edge hits his leg...thrill a minute stuff...

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:40 am

With Kohli 5* from 30 balls it seems silly to suggest he's played aggressively but I actually think he is trying to. It's just so tough out there.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:41 am

alfie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I think that one was clear cut.

The view from the leg side in the first innings 'stumping' was one of those where it was incredibly tight, but the stump cam I thought looked out.A picture from the off side not being available was, erm, odd.

A really good start for England though. Leach and Mo both bowling well thus far.

I heard they don't have a camera set up for that view...as you say , a bit strange. And yes , today's a bit easier to decide . Was still very close though , which highlights the importance of Foakes' quick hands.

Ha...even Foakes can't catch those ! Under edge hits his leg...thrill a minute stuff...
I head similar about the offside camera. Usually there's a fixed camera either side of the crease at each end for no balls. That way if one side is blocked by a fielder odds are the other wont be. I guess the coverage was thrown together a bit though.

There were both angles available for the Rohit stumping today so perhaps it's been remedied.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:44 am

FFS Mo. The inconsistent length is so frustrating. England have been building pressure well.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:45 am

Leach bowling really well - loves these conditions. Unfortunately poor old Moeen just isn't doing his bit the other end. Far too much loose stuff releasing the shackles on the batsmen...

Root to bowl maybe ?

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:47 am

I was just thinking Root to bowl. His slingy off spinners bowling quicker and into the pitch looked tough in the first innings.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:51 am

Pope getting in on the excellent fielding. Rahane gone.

A good morning session thus far.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:51 am

Ah well...Moeen is forgiven (for now) Smile

Good catch by Pope...goodbye Rahane. 86/5.

This is fun ! Though it probably means the match will be over today...

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:53 am

Runs are like gold dust this morning and thank god for the 200 run lead

Axar needs to show why he is deemed an allrounder
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:03 am

Not sure God had too much to do with the lead...India just played better and earned it,
Reckon they have plenty anyway. Axar might want some runs for his profile but I fancy he'll be looking forward more to bowling on this Smile

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:05 am

I reckon Leachy is going to smash 130odd whilst Ben Stokes makes 1* at the other end...  Wink

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:09 am

Time for a change at Mo's end I feel.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:15 am

king_carlos wrote:Time for a change at Mo's end I feel.

Brilliant hex Very Happy

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:16 am

Mo lands one well to Patel and that looked very out live. Out on-field but being reviewed.

Closer than I thought with wickets umpires call.

It didn't matter for that one as it seemed to miss the bat but I'm not sure that snicko was actually working there. It was a dead flat line the whole time it was up on the screen with no murmurs at all then no spike when the ball thudded into the back leg. For that one I don't think it mattered but a touch concerning if so.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:17 am

alfie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Time for a change at Mo's end I feel.

Brilliant hex Very Happy
I did the same during the rugby at the weekend.

"Billy Vunipola has been invisible", queue Billy Vunipola getting a turnover the second I hit send.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:20 am

I'm not really sure what the discussion was there. It looked like a four from the replay.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:30 am

king_carlos wrote:I'm not really sure what the discussion was there. It looked like a four from the replay.

Indeed. Looked clear enough...but Stokes seemed genuinely astonished. Either he didn't realise he'd touched the advertising panel or he was convinced he'd tapped the ball back in time ?

Meanwhile this ball is now into its fortieth over and batting looks correspondingly a bit more possible...

India have enough anyway . Be nice to wrap it up though and at least maintain the fiction that a fourth innings target might be attempted. Need to break this pair and the rest should follow.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:35 am

I can only guess that Stokes didn't see the replay and felt that it was OK as he fielded it given he was miffed. An odd one.

I was just thinking that Kohli has given a road map for how to bat. He's been very good at playing well forward to smother the spin without coming down the crease then has punished the bad ball. Once he faced 50 balls scoring has looked easier for him.

It would be good for England's morale if they can keep India to around 150 for this innings but with both these batsman playing their shots England need the next wicket soon to manage that.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:38 am

India has shallowest batting they have had in a long time in this test
India missing. Sundar batting
If kuldeep doesn't pick 3 or 4 wickets , he would be rested
The problem for kuldeep though as third spinner the room to take wickets is much smaller
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:39 am

Leach is starting to look a bit weary. Few too many loose balls coming down ; and the snap crackle and pop from earlier has gone missing - no doubt that's a lot to do with the older ball of course.

Back to Moeen , or a bit of pace ?

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Post by msp83 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:40 am

Fine little hand from Ashwin. Bating on 20, played his shots, and looked at his comfortable best in a very long time, even more so than that epic rescue act in Australia! What a time to do this! The ball with his number might arrive any time, but good signs for India that he and his inner batsman continue to get back in better terms after a 3 year fall-out.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:42 am

If 2021 Ravi Ashwin can keep doing this excellent impression of 2016 Ravi Ashwin then the batting depth seems a bit better.

Ashwin swatting his way to a quick 20 runs already.

Make that 24 runs with another sweep off Root.

India pass England's first innings total in their second dig.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:43 am

alfie wrote:Leach is starting to look a bit weary. Few too many loose balls coming down ; and the snap crackle and pop from earlier has gone missing - no doubt that's a lot to do with the older ball of course.

Back to Moeen , or a bit of pace ?
I think I'd prefer pace against Ashwin with him lining up the spinners well so maybe worth giving Stone a punt.

Broad is yet to bowl in this innings!

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:45 am

Oh Sunny, I really wish I enjoyed listening to his commentary as much as I adored watching his batting.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:45 am

king_carlos wrote:I can only guess that Stokes didn't see the replay and felt that it was OK as he fielded it given he was miffed. An odd one.

I was just thinking that Kohli has given a road map for how to bat. He's been very good at playing well forward to smother the spin without coming down the crease then has punished the bad ball. Once he faced 50 balls scoring has looked easier for him.

It would be good for England's morale if they can keep India to around 150 for this innings but with both these batsman playing their shots England need the next wicket soon to manage that.

Agree about Kohli. If you can stay in , and get to face an old (forty plus) ball , batting on this is not impossible. Still tricky though as the odd ball does something . Think Foakes - and Pope , until he glanced that one off Siraj - showed that yesterday too. Which is why I was a bit critical of Sibley from departing from his comfort zone , and even Root for going too hard too early.
Had the early bats managed to last even an extra fifteen - twenty overs we might have seen a much closer game.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:47 am

msp83 wrote:Fine little hand from Ashwin. Bating on 20, played his shots, and looked at his comfortable best in a very long time, even more so than that epic rescue act in Australia! What a time to do this! The ball with his number might arrive any time, but good signs for India that he and his inner batsman continue to get back in better terms after a 3 year fall-out.

These are low pressure runs
India needs one more batsman....Axar is neither a no. 7 nor an 8
Ind needs to bring Sundar back and maybe shardul for siraj
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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:48 am

msp83 wrote:Fine little hand from Ashwin. Bating on 20, played his shots, and looked at his comfortable best in a very long time, even more so than that epic rescue act in Australia! What a time to do this! The ball with his number might arrive any time, but good signs for India that he and his inner batsman continue to get back in better terms after a 3 year fall-out.

These are low pressure runs
India needs one more batsman....Axar is neither  a no. 7 nor an 8
Ind needs to bring Sundar back and maybe shardul for siraj
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Post by msp83 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:48 am

By the way, what a wonderful talent Ben Foakes really is! Think England should give him a solid run. Probably the best wicketkeeper in the world. And unlike Wriddhiman Saha, his batting basics seem sound enough. If he can play spin the way he has done so far in his career, and having done well in county cricket, can't be that bad against seam either. What he needs is a proper run in the side.
Cricbuz on commentary mentioned his stumpings reminded one of Mahendra Singh Dhoni, he surely was the best with stumpings, but the one that Foakes pulled off today morning to get Rohit, would have made MS proud! And the lad seems pretty secure with his catches as well.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:49 am

Agree completely there, alfie.

Broad comes onto bowl but has Foakes up to the stumps and his first ball clipped away. I'd guess he isn't the best mood right now.  Laugh

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:50 am

Ah . Broad is actually playing in this match ... Had begun to seem he was just a substitute fielder Smile

Not sure he'll be able to do much but worth a change just to have something different.

But nearly does the trick ! Stokes should have caught that....

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:52 am

Actually Broad bowling slow clutter at 115kph would still be faster than fastish spin
And quite hard to handle
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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:54 am

It feels silly to criticise Stokes for his fielding but I reckon he should have got two hands to that.

I think it might have been Marcus Trescothick (an excellent first slip himself) who accurately described Stokes as a taker of great catchers rather than a great slip fielder. He's such an athlete and will take incredible catches in the 3rd slip, gully, point region or at slip to the spinners where it's very instinctive. I'd actually argue that Root is our best slipper to be standing at first slip if we only have one in though.


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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 5:59 am

This shouldn't be an important partnership in the scope of the match as India have enough already barring a remarkable effort from England. It's a tough one for the England players to stomach though as the they are starting to look a bit tired and ragged after a very good start to the session.

On the bright side we are seeing that if you can fight past the harder ball it is possible, though still very difficult to score runs.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:03 am

That review would fall in the realms of. brain fade
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:05 am

king_carlos wrote:It feels silly to criticise Stokes for his fielding but I reckon he should have got two hands to that.

I think it might have been Marcus Trescothick (an excellent first slip himself) who accurately described Stokes as a taker of great catchers rather than a great slip fielder. He's such an athlete and will take incredible catches in the 3rd slip, gully, point region or at slip to the spinners where it's very instinctive. I'd actually argue that Root is our best slipper to be standing at first slip if we only have one in though.

Think I'd agree with that. Wasn't an easy chance , this one , mind. Came at an awkward angle.

Lawrence on...and a wasted (desperation?) review...

Lunch...350/6 , more or less. Good intent from England this morning ; but still unable to put India away as they managed to do yesterday...

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:05 am

Dan Lawrence isn't bad....getting a loop....like even Bess doesn't
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Post by msp83 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:06 am

156-6 at lunch. Excellent partnership under the circumstances. Kohli has batted more than 80 deliveries. Showed good technique to survive on this track.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:12 am

I think brain fade best describes that review. There was a noise from bat hitting ground but nowhere near the ball. Amusingly I think that Root and Foakes behind the bat couldn't believe that Lawrence turned it that far!

Lawrence can bowl a bit. He has been more than useful in T20s at times for Essex. As seen in that over his flight can come at the expense of accuracy. Unsurprising when most his bowling will be turning his arm over in the nets after he's finished batting.

He puts revs on the ball which I always like in a part time spinner as bowlers who don't bowl many overs will always bowl the odd poor one so they better turn it when they land them. Part timers who just trundle in and bowl 6 arm balls but still bowl long hops or full tosses do my head in. Give it a rip. I've long maintained that Simon Katich could've been an all-rounder with his left-arm wrist-spin!

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:55 am

The pitch has actually not deteriorated like it normally should
It's still playing like it did on D1...exaggerate spin and boyce with new ball...and then it settles when balnis about 30overs
Then you should have bowlers to extract reverse
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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 6:58 am

king_carlos wrote:I think brain fade best describes that review. There was a noise from bat hitting ground but nowhere near the ball. Amusingly I think that Root and Foakes behind the bat couldn't believe that Lawrence turned it that far!

Lawrence can bowl a bit. He has been more than useful in T20s at times for Essex. As seen in that over his flight can come at the expense of accuracy. Unsurprising when most his bowling will be turning his arm over in the nets after he's finished batting.

He puts revs on the ball which I always like in a part time spinner as bowlers who don't bowl many overs will always bowl the odd poor one so they better turn it when they land them. Part timers who just trundle in and bowl 6 arm balls but still bowl long hops or full tosses do my head in. Give it a rip. I've long maintained that Simon Katich could've been an all-rounder with his left-arm wrist-spin!
Yup he gives us a rip and got revs on the ball with flight
They should get him to practise more in nets and bowl a bit more in FC cricket
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:06 am

Morning / evening folks - just been catching up with the first session highlights. Some individual England crumbs of comfort.

Neat work at short leg by Pope. Fine catch to get Patel. Some luck with Pujara's run out but credit to the fielder being alert. He tried the same thing after he had actually caught Ashwin in the first innings; he missed the stumps then and was almost mocked by Strauss in the Channel 4 studio. However, it was still worth doing then in case the catch hadn't been given.

Foakes' glovework looked immaculate. Getting praise from former India keeper Kiran More on twitter as well as msp here. Working well in combo with Leach. I appreciate Olly's point from yesterday about India wearing Leach down for the next match. At least a threefer so far should perk him up a bit.

A few pies with gravy alongside served up by Moeen. Surprised he and Leach are going at around the same economy rate. Must have been some tighter stuff from Moeen not on the highlights.

Anyway, in the context of the match, the day so far belonging to India as it inevitably would. Kohli on the brink of 50 and Ashwin not too far behind. Lead almost 370 which I would guess is double that needed although I hope we can put up some fight with the bat today and into tomorrow.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:09 am

Kohli has gotten runs in second innings of both tests
But pressure less runs
One when the game was gone (unless he showed he could bat thru to save it)
The other when it's almost given win

We need him to deliver a set the match fist inning
hundred or chase down or play out a draw second inning
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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:15 am

Morning Guildford.

Pies and Gravy  Laugh  I haven't heard that in a cricketing context for a while! Quite apt at times too, sadly.

Leach has bowled well overall but has looked a touch tired at times.

This 70 run partnership has wrestled every last bit of momentum away from England I'd say. A 300 run lead when Patel fell was already very likely too much but England had at least bowled better and had a chance of not being in the field too long today. 5 wickets for 50 or so runs at that point was a very good start. Things have drifted for England with some good batting from Kohli and Ashwin with the ball softening and the bowlers tiring.

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Post by JDizzle Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:16 am

alfie wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong...  Laugh

Annoyingly CricViz aren't able to use their ball tracking data in this series, so aren't able to gather their Expected Wickets stats (xW) like they where in Sri Lanka.

For example, the balls Bess bowled in SL were expected to give him seven wickets at 35.9, taking into account length, drift, turn etc - but he ended up with 12 at 21.25. It would be interesting to see how Moeen would compare. Conclusions of one innings are never cast iron, but would have been interesting to compare.

I suppose it might be interesting. But really , these Cricviz "projections" I take with a large helping of salt . Cricket isn't played on a computer...these "expected to give him" things strike me as akin to Moores speaking about "looking at the data " after England's ODI team got hammered in that World Cup contest...

Haha, I do wonder if that is a bit of a generational thing Alfie. Wink

It’s not the be all and end all or course, and it’s a projection very much in it’s infancy - and like baseball has come to realise you need a synthesis of the two. Data and what you see with your eyes. Cricket is still a long way behind in what data they do gather. But the bowlers with the lowest xW in past few years were people like Rabada, Anderson, Hazlewood. So it passes the smell test for not being completely erroneous!

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:29 am

Ashwin's fore hand tennis pull shots examples of what you can achieve when there is no pressure
Under a pressured situation
A. He won't dare attempt it
B. 9 out of 10 times it won't come off even if attempted
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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:31 am

Fifty up for Ashwin. He has batted aggressively but well.

Runs can definitely be scored if England can fight through an early siege with the hard ball.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:34 am

I rate Stone but Broad's cutters looked dangerous in the two overs he got before lunch. A bit surprised he hasn't been plugged in at one end for a few here.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 7:44 am

JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong...  Laugh

Annoyingly CricViz aren't able to use their ball tracking data in this series, so aren't able to gather their Expected Wickets stats (xW) like they where in Sri Lanka.

For example, the balls Bess bowled in SL were expected to give him seven wickets at 35.9, taking into account length, drift, turn etc - but he ended up with 12 at 21.25. It would be interesting to see how Moeen would compare. Conclusions of one innings are never cast iron, but would have been interesting to compare.

I suppose it might be interesting. But really , these Cricviz "projections" I take with a large helping of salt . Cricket isn't played on a computer...these "expected to give him" things strike me as akin to Moores speaking about "looking at the data " after England's ODI team got hammered in that World Cup contest...

Haha, I do wonder if that is a bit of a generational thing Alfie. Wink

It’s not the be all and end all or course, and it’s a projection very much in it’s infancy - and like baseball has come to realise you need a synthesis of the two. Data and what you see with your eyes. Cricket is still a long way behind in what data they do gather.  But the bowlers with the lowest xW in past few years were people like Rabada, Anderson, Hazlewood. So it passes the smell test for not being completely erroneous!

Yeah my age might be a factor there Smile But I'm not surprised the figures will match fairly well over time ... logically , they ought to. Where I take issue is in using such projections to almost disregard actual results in a small sample : and perhaps influencing a selection move in this match that isn't looking any better with hindsight ? You don't need Cricviz to tell you Bess got some lucky wickets in Sri Lanka . But when someone gets lucky a lot it is often a sign there is a little more going on than the pitch map indicates. The battle between bat and ball is mental as well as physical. Generally I'd select my team on results , at least until they dry up...

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