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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:09 am

Ashwin getting a hundred and lst wicket stand of nearly 50 and those SIXES from both have Pumelled Eng

If this was a Boxing game throwing in the white towel would be an optiong for the player getting pumelled
or
for refree to call a K.O
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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:12 am

Righty-o time to begin the world record chase.

482 to get in about 195 overs or so. Doddle.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:12 am

This must be soul destroying for England. 106/6 to this...and instead of batting shortly after lunch it will be late evening torment by new ball ...with a still hard ball tomorrow morning.

Fortunately there's a break before the third game . They might need it to get their spirits back up after this , as well as resting tired bodies.
Hope they can make a fight of the fourth innings ; but not expecting it to be anything too inspiring.

Must admit I didn't expect India to put this many on the board.

Gone now... Stone ends Ashwin at 106 clap

Terrific effort. So : just 482 to win .

Plenty of time to get them , anyway Smile

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:12 am

This is actually very clever batting from India, the longer they bat the more they can legitimise the pitch.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:12 am

Finally it's over. 49 run 10th wicket partnership at close to a run a ball. This darn unplayable pitch hey.

Very well batted by Ravi Ashwin. Some cricketer.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:13 am

Moeen Ali highest wicket taker yet AGAIN in second inning Very Happy
and highest wicket taker in the game for Eng
and highest wkt taker for Eng in either of the tests so far

Now he only need to play half of Ashwin innings with Eng score card reading 42-6...to cap the icing on the cake
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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:14 am

KP_fan wrote:Ashwin getting a hundred and lst wicket stand of nearly 50 and those SIXES from both have Pumelled Eng

If this was a Boxing game throwing in the white towel would be an optiong for the player getting pumelled
or
for refree to call a K.O
Magnanimous as ever KP  Laugh

Batted better, bowled better, fielded better thus far in T2 that's for sure.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:15 am

Soul Requiem wrote:This is actually very clever batting from India, the longer they bat the more they can legitimise the pitch.

for the pitch to be deemed illegitimate first of all by any standards,
either ECB or Eng's captain / tour management have to open up their mouth and make an official  statement
Only once such a statement is made....would the need to legitimize even arise
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:16 am

Duty281 wrote:I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.

Think I'd need to see a bit more of Foakes at Test level to confirm that , Duty. He's yet to face much serious pace so some good efforts in the subcontinent don't make a firm case , in my view. Not yet , anyway.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:16 am

king_carlos wrote:Finally it's over. 49 run 10th wicket partnership at close to a run a ball. This darn unplayable pitch hey.

Very well batted by Ravi Ashwin. Some cricketer.

Presuming the groundsman will be putting in the unplayable pitch during the innings break Carlos...

The only positive for England of that Ashwin knock is he might be a bit tired for the new ball spell here...at least that's what Rory Burns will be hoping!
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:18 am

KP_fan wrote:Moeen Ali highest wicket taker yet AGAIN in second inning  Very Happy
and  highest wicket taker in the game for Eng
and highest wkt taker for Eng in either of the tests so far

Now he only need to play half of Ashwin innings with Eng  score card reading 42-6...to cap the icing on the cake

Very Happy Been expecting that.

Refer my earlier post : Lies , damned lies , and statistics. I think we all watched the game.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:21 am

KP_fan wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:This is actually very clever batting from India, the longer they bat the more they can legitimise the pitch.

for the pitch to be deemed illegitimate first of all by any standards,
either ECB or Eng's captain / tour management have to open up their mouth and make an official  statement
Only once such a statement is made....would the need to legitimize even arise
Is protocol these days not for sides to lodge formal complaints after the Test has finished though? So not out the ordinary at all for nothing to be done whilst the Test is ongoing.

I suspect England might lodge a complaint. The rules around pitches explicitly state that pitches shouldn't offer excessive assistance to spin bowlers, especially early in the match. Though there are caveats for subcontinent conditions where pitches will naturally turn more even on day 1, but even then it says anything more occasional uneven bounce at that stage is unacceptable. So within the rules there definitely seems room for England to lodge a complaint at which point it is up to the ICC.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:23 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Finally it's over. 49 run 10th wicket partnership at close to a run a ball. This darn unplayable pitch hey.

Very well batted by Ravi Ashwin. Some cricketer.

Presuming the groundsman will be putting in the unplayable pitch during the innings break Carlos...

The only positive for England of that Ashwin knock is he might be a bit tired for the new ball spell here...at least that's what Rory Burns will be hoping!
I'm sure Vaughan will tweet something about seeing the groundsman using a rake on it instead of a roller!

Burns is on a pair at the minute. If he bags one then it might be his last Test dig for a while with Crawley due back for T3.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:25 am

[quote="king_carlos"]
KP_fan wrote:. So within the rules there definitely seems room for England to lodge a complaint at which point it is up to the ICC.

If they have to ...then they must do it NOW...else they will get served a replica in Ahmedabad
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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:26 am

6 runs from the first over. We're going to get there before the second new ball at this rate.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:31 am

KP_fan wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
KP_fan wrote:. So within the rules there definitely seems room for England to lodge a complaint at which point it is up to the ICC.

If they have to ...then they must do it NOW...else they will get served a replica in Ahmedabad
That's not how the system works though. Complaints are lodged after the game, it then goes to the ICC and they decided whether to issue demerit points. If a ground gets enough demerit points in a certain amount of time it can then lose it's accreditation to host international cricket. Which from a financial perspective can be a hammer blow. So a potentially serious situation.

If a pitch in Ahmedabad is consequently considered poor by the ICC then it just continues that process at a second ground.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:35 am

Kohli revving up the crowd like an orchestra conductor Smile

Pretty good at the mind games as the England openers prepare to face Ashwin ghost

Great theatre.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:39 am

Sibley playing back to balls he could try to press forward and smother does worry me on this pitch.

That said it's his method and he did score runs with it in T1. C'mon Dom, prove me wrong.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:44 am

First chance eludes Pant...not easy keeping on this. Burns having a slice of fortune ...

17/0 . Bit better than the first innings.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:48 am

king_carlos wrote:Sibley playing back to balls he could try to press forward and smother does worry me on this pitch.

That said it's his method and he did score runs with it in T1. C'mon Dom, prove me wrong.

Think he has to stick to his method , KC. It was actually an out of character sweep attempt that did him in first time around.
Whatever they do , survival on this - with all the runs and time pressure - is going to be devilish difficult. Best use it to try and find a plan that works , with an eye to future innings.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:51 am

king_carlos wrote: C'mon Dom, prove me wrong.

This is all your fault.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:53 am

That's stone dead...Sibley walks off without wasting a review. Good bowling from Axar but that underlines how hard batting will be in this innings. Risk in playing back , indeed.
Lawrence now . Has been struggling against spin since his first game : won't find this any easier.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:55 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
king_carlos wrote: C'mon Dom, prove me wrong.

This is all your fault.
My bad sorry Tino.

Lets try reverse commentators curse-ology. I bet Lawrence scores nowt.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 10:56 am

Two batsman who need runs to be confident of selection for the next Test at the crease.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:01 am

I think Burns' spot is still pretty safe for the next test. Lawrence will almost certainly be making way for Crawley - Lawrence has only played these two tests because of Crawley's injury in the first place.

England will be quite a bit stronger for the next test and conditions will be much more to their liking, so plenty of cause to be optimistic.


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Post by guildfordbat Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:02 am

My take. I didn't like how this pitch had been prepared - really seemed to be pushing things in favour of the home side. However, India made over 600 runs across their two digs on it despite England picking what they considered to be their two best spinners. Hard therefore to see any formal complaint having legs. More likely we'll be told we should have batted and bowled better.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:04 am

Duty281 wrote:I think Burns' spot is still pretty safe for the next test. Lawrence will almost certainly be making way for Crawley - Lawrence has only played these two tests because of Crawley's injury in the first place.

England will be quite a bit stronger for the next test and conditions will be much more to their liking, so plenty of cause to be optimistic.


Isn't Bairstow available now? He will probably come in for Lawrence?

If Burns scores enough here, he will probably stay in and I don't think they will drop Sibley so I can't see how Crawley gets back in ahead of Bairstow. Rightly or wrongly.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:12 am

Duty281 wrote:I think Burns' spot is still pretty safe for the next test. Lawrence will almost certainly be making way for Crawley - Lawrence has only played these two tests because of Crawley's injury in the first place.

England will be quite a bit stronger for the next test and conditions will be much more to their liking, so plenty of cause to be optimistic.


So you don't think Lawrence is the one bringing the England victory home? Wink

More seriously and as usual, I'll wait for this Test to be over before picking my team for the next one. Further to Tino's post, Bairstow will be available then (provided he tests negative on his last covid check - he's out there but still in quarantine).

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Post by JDizzle Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:15 am

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.

Think I'd need to see a bit more of Foakes at Test level to confirm that , Duty. He's yet to face much serious pace so some good efforts in the subcontinent don't make a firm case , in my view. Not yet , anyway.

Only 9 men average 40 or more with the bat as the designated keeper in the history of the game (minimum 1000 runs). Gilly really did a job on expectations and is still doing so! Pop quiz if anyone needs distraction to try and name the 9!

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:15 am

I think Bairstow will come back at 3, rightly or wrongly, particularly if the pitch looks like it will turn big again. He does play spin very well. If the pitch looks like there's a bit more in it for the seamers (with Bumrah to come back and the pink ball in there will be more incentive for India to want that) then I'd personally prefer Crawley at 3.

Lawrence has a chance to demand he keeps his place here though as Guildford alludes to.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:16 am

I'd forgotten about Bairstow, actually, I thought England were resting him for the entire tour. If he does come back in it might be in place of Foakes or Pope, but that would mean putting him at 6. Or he might replace Lawrence and Crawley comes in for Burns (just out) or Sibley.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:17 am

Lawrence playing more positively this time , after poking around rather ineffectively in the first innings. India won't mind them playing shots - they certainly have a healthy run cushion Smile

Whatever England do with selection next week , these two will want to keep their names in the sorting hat for this busy 17 Test Year.

Burns gone now...Ashwin's first victim for this innings. Time for the nightwatchman!

Where's guildford with his pitchfork ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:18 am

That's a poor dismissal from Burns imo, trying to play Ashwin between midwicket/square from middle/middle and leg? Just asking for a leading edge/edge
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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:19 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:That's a poor dismissal from Burns imo, trying to play Ashwin between midwicket/square from middle/middle and leg? Just asking for a leading edge/edge

Horrible shot. Looks worse with every viewing.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:21 am

JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.

Think I'd need to see a bit more of Foakes at Test level to confirm that , Duty. He's yet to face much serious pace so some good efforts in the subcontinent don't make a firm case , in my view. Not yet , anyway.

Only 9 men average 40 or more with the bat as the designated keeper in the history of the game (minimum 1000 runs). Gilly really did a job on expectations and is still doing so! Pop quiz if anyone needs distraction to try and name the 9!
Gilly
ABdV (His average as a keeper was fantastic, good gloveman too)
Prior
Kumar (His average as a keeper was much lower but still over 40 I'd guess)
Flower

Those are my bankers.

Les Ames is the only potential one I can think of from back in the day.

Has Pant smashed his way to 1000 runs with the gloves yet?

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:21 am

And the nightwatchman duly departs immediately...

Can hear guildford clearing his throat from here Smile

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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:22 am

Well Leach certainly watched that delivery as he escorted it safely to the fielder.

We'll need lots of night watchmen soon with the next test being played during the night.

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Post by JDizzle Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:25 am

king_carlos wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.

Think I'd need to see a bit more of Foakes at Test level to confirm that , Duty. He's yet to face much serious pace so some good efforts in the subcontinent don't make a firm case , in my view. Not yet , anyway.

Only 9 men average 40 or more with the bat as the designated keeper in the history of the game (minimum 1000 runs). Gilly really did a job on expectations and is still doing so! Pop quiz if anyone needs distraction to try and name the 9!
Gilly
ABdV (His average as a keeper was fantastic, good gloveman too)
Prior
Kumar (His average as a keeper was much lower but still over 40 I'd guess)
Flower

Those are my bankers.

Les Ames is the only potential one I can think of from back in the day.

Has Pant smashed his way to 1000 runs with the gloves yet?

They are all correct. ABdV averaged 57 with 7 hundreds. Obscene.

Les Ames 43.40 and Pant has 1200 runs.

The other two were Chandimal and Denis Lindsay - SA keeper in the 60s!

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:27 am

Thank god for the tipping competition, would be a rough day following this otherwise.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:30 am

JDizzle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I don't really see how there is any argument between Foakes and Buttler in a test sense. It might be different if one is the better keeper and the other is the better batsman, but Foakes is better at both of those disciplines.

Buttler is averaging under 35 with the bat in tests, and 35 is likely his ceiling, while Foakes (only a few tests played so far) is averaging just over 40, and 40 is around about where you'd expect him to be.

Think I'd need to see a bit more of Foakes at Test level to confirm that , Duty. He's yet to face much serious pace so some good efforts in the subcontinent don't make a firm case , in my view. Not yet , anyway.

Only 9 men average 40 or more with the bat as the designated keeper in the history of the game (minimum 1000 runs). Gilly really did a job on expectations and is still doing so! Pop quiz if anyone needs distraction to try and name the 9!
Gilly
ABdV (His average as a keeper was fantastic, good gloveman too)
Prior
Kumar (His average as a keeper was much lower but still over 40 I'd guess)
Flower

Those are my bankers.

Les Ames is the only potential one I can think of from back in the day.

Has Pant smashed his way to 1000 runs with the gloves yet?

They are all correct. ABdV averaged 57 with 7 hundreds. Obscene.

Les Ames 43.40 and Pant has 1200 runs.

The other two were Chandimal and Denis Lindsay - SA keeper in the 60s!
A touch frustrated I missed Chandimal but never would have got Lindsay.

Yep, ABdVs stats are remarkable. In the debate of best batsman across all formats he's probably in the top bracket along with IVA, Gilly, Kohli. Had Sobers played more white ball cricket he'd be in there too, probably Graeme Pollock as well but that's where comparing across the generations is so so difficult.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:30 am

alfie wrote:And the nightwatchman duly departs immediately...

Can hear guildford clearing his throat from here Smile

Rolling Eyes

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:32 am

That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:32 am

Those damn corrupt umpires eh
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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:33 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:That's a poor dismissal from Burns imo, trying to play Ashwin between midwicket/square from middle/middle and leg? Just asking for a leading edge/edge

Yeah he won't be happy watching it back. But we shouldn't overlook the skill of Ashwin in getting that ball to dip late ...similar to the way he deceived Stokes on Sunday.

Root survives a double appeal by the skin of his teeth...thought that was out , live. They took ages to decide to review so I guess they weren't sure either. One bit of luck for England !

53/3 at the close. Three hours , tops , tomorrow ?

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Post by Pal Joey Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:33 am

Gooseberry wrote:Thank god for the tipping competition, would be a rough day following this otherwise.

I'm glad to ease your pain, Goose.
You were closing in on KP_f for most of the day but he's skipped away again with Axar's two latest wickets.
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:36 am

The umpires did well in that last session not to be intimidated by the aggressive appealing. Not helped either by petulant Kohli or exuberant crowd.

Backs up my thoughts and some others yesterday that it was incompetence and inexperience that let them down then as opposed to ''cheating''.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:41 am

king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:45 am

On Eng's inning ....they weren't quite sure how to go about it....so they started using the feet....but not convincingly enough.

Lawrence jumped down the track often and hoiked across the line like a man knowing his death sentence has bee issued and only and exceptional score can save his neck....decided to play a "do-or-die" inning....he's still alive

Sending the night watchman was a mistake or at best a low return gamble that did not pay off...and nearly caused Root's wicket having shown the opposition he was "afraid" to come out with 15 minutes to go.

And only a "Daylight-Robbery" / "Blatant-Cheating" from the 3rd umpire saved Root....except that you are allowed to call all that only is the vising team has been wronged Very Happy
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Post by KP_fan Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:46 am

Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

and it counts as "against the spirit" thingy only when the home captain has a chat with the umpire not when visiting Root does the same laughing
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Post by Duty281 Mon 15 Feb 2021, 11:49 am

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:That just looked out live.

Not a good look from Kohli going at the umpire like that though.

As usual, Kohli has exhibited that he's a disgraceful sportsman who doesn't acknowledge or respect the spirit of the game. A shame as he's such a wonderful player in full flow.

and it counts as "against the spirit" thingy only when the home captain has a chat with the umpire not when visiting Root does the same  laughing

As you are someone who does not understand the ideals of respect, sportsmanship or fair play - as exhibited thousands of times through your posts - I wouldn't expect you to understand this either.

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