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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

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Post by msp83 Thu 18 Feb 2021, 2:11 pm

Guildford, alfie and Dummy,
Thanks for your takes.
I would want batsman to have a decent chance to put up a score if they have the game for it, on any track. A track that would make batting an absolute lottery is surely not desirable. However, the track for the 2nd test was far from that. It asked lots of questions but if you could survive the new ball, then you could really trust your defense on that track. Kohli, who played an expansive shot so early in his innings before gaging the track and that's when he got bowled, is one thing that you all seem to miss. Yes that ball turned a mile, but it wasn't an unplayable delivery, it wasn't one that had Kohli's number on it no matter what he did. The story isn't drastically different in the England first innings, other than Ben Stokes, who among that top order got an absolutely unplayable delivery?
As we all know, there is no science to preparing pitches, and there is no ideal way to balance bat and ball on a track. An ideal track would be one that would provide value for shots, where batsmen who have organized games against spinning and seaming/swinging balls can make runs, while providing enough for all type of bowlers help that keep them interested throughout 5 days. But we really don't have too many of them anywhere. Think its also a ting that is in the mind, many are not used to seeing dust coming up from the track on day one, with the ball turning from the beginning.
I'd hope for a track that spins a touch less on the first 3 days but between the track for the first test and this one, I'd any day take this one.
Guildford, yes I called the first test track a disgraceful road. There is nothing more that irritates me than commentators calling flat roads 'true/good' pitch! I called it a road not because it was England who won the toss, but because it just wasn't doing anything for bowlers, quicker or spinners for the 2 3 days. And even when they were good enough to find reverse on it, Ishant, Bumrah or Anderson, weren't able to make much of an impact because the track was too slow so that the batsmen could make late adjustments. Anderson's reverse became lethal on day 5 because of the low bounce on a track  were the bounce was becoming increasingly unpredictable. And I'd agree with KPF, had it not been for Anderson, India could likely have managed a draw.
And alfie, I wouldn't say India lost the test because they lost the toss. Because on day 3, the top order just gave it away with far too many soft dismissals. Forget batting on from tea on day 2, if they had another 70 runs in the first innings, they would've had every chance of making the draw very much realistic. England won because they were good enough to make full use of the perfect batting conditions, and just about did enough with the ball in the first innings when India batted with the help of scoreboard pressure. And I wouldn't even blame the Indian bowlers too much, yes Nadeem was a massive letdown and Sundar didn't maintain the pressure, but Ashwin, Ishant and Bumrah did as well as they could possibly have done on that track, but they came up against a dead track, and a Joe Root in top form with solid support from the rest...


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Post by Duty281 Thu 18 Feb 2021, 2:15 pm

IPL economics seem odd. I get that bowlers are deemed more worthwhile than batsmen in T20 cricket, but it seems strange that the best T20 batsman in the world goes for a snip at 150k while Glenn Maxwell goes for nearly ten times as much at 1.4 million, or Chris Morris at 1.6 million.

From an England perspective, according to the BBC some players might miss the NZ/Eng test series in June if their IPL teams go far in the competition.  Wouldn't be good if the series was shorn of the likes of Stokes, Archer or Jamieson.

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Post by msp83 Thu 18 Feb 2021, 2:16 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
msp83 wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The laws of the game aren't really that complicated, using the definition as defined in law 2.7 it was a substandard test pitch.

Unlike Adelaide.  
I could have slept on that pitch it looked so comfortable to the eye. I think the Indians need a crash course in proper turf management.

Australia generally produces sporting wickets whilst India has a long history of producing doctored ones. I realise there are two types of soil found in the Tamil Nadu area and it was too obvious that both were used on the centre wicket area. Pictures don't lie. The close ups of the cracking patterns was the giveaway. Here, we don't do that sort of thing and I suspect neither does England.

It also has to be mentioned that a couple of posters on here made a big scene during the latest Australian tour - mostly guided by the twitterati media hype - about the 6 people ejected from the SCG on day 2 I think it was? Nothing has subsequently been proven and no charges have been laid.

Personally (with respect to Siraj who had just lost his father) I think that was a beat up of massive proportions. I can tell you from personal experience having been to the ground many times; yes... there have been bunches of idiots calling out offensive things in days gone by (not me.. it's not my style) but I can similarly assure everyone that in early January, this place was on a knife-edge with Covid restrictions (with no energy or will to create a stir!) and for 6 people to get ejected (unlawfully in my view; without any proof ) out of 10,075 attendees - well that's a fine showing of exceptionally good behaviour in my opinion.

I did notice, however, that during this last match in Chennai, there were long periods of the crowd behaving in what can only be described as hysterical fervour. Some might call that simply "emotion" or "excitement" but you'll never convince me that a lot of that intimidating noise wasn't directed at the England players. Of course it was. Or that nothing untoward was said or shouted at poor Broad fielding on the boundary. I don't believe it. It was a pure example of verbal mockery which I found quite hypocritical (as well as disturbing) given the amount one or two posters on here have admonished the Australian crowds.

I know we are opening up a can of worms here. I've already forgotten all of the booing and hissing that accompanied Steve Smith as he walked on and got 'carried' off at the Oval in 2019. It will be interesting to see how we handle the Barmy Army later on in the year. I can't imagine anybody being told by the local authorities (cricketing or otherwise) - "have fun guys... but remember: no naughty words or gestures... otherwise we'll have to pack up the whole show and send everybody home!"  Wink

It's quite a quandary, really, if you think about it for any length of time. Maybe the players need to sign some sort of declaration along the lines of agreeing to be "thick-skinned" and "tone deaf" and "I will not be grossly offended by anything that I may (or may not) hear from the outer..."

My final comment; and I'll let everyone read between the lines here.

I found it extraordinary that the BCCI, with all that dough in their coffers, couldn't (or didn't want to more like!) shell out of few lahk Rupee for the extra camera (to pay whoever), which may have covered the controversial run out. As much as I'm no fan of Rupert Murdoch or his Star India media conglomerate, it's no use blaming him for that one; I thought that was pretty cheap. Did they think they would get away with that? It was funny how an extra camera was suddenly 'found' overnight, wasn't it?

With all the gloating about how much money they make, it would be nice to see the BCCI spend a bit of that money on the necessary technology and it also wouldn't hurt if some of those grandstands got a lick of paint to bring them up to scratch with modern requirements for POPE... Places Of Popular Entertainment. I also saw some rusty old re-bar lying on the concourse during the 1st Test. In Australia, that would result in the immediate closure of the venue (for non-compliance) under the Health & Safety Act - under the dangerous hazards clause.
Nice try!

So you disagree with what I've written?

I only saying what most England fans on here can't say.

Try harder!
Didn't know England fans are under BCCI retainership! What exactly prevents them from speaking their mind so much so that they need an Australian spokesperson?

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Post by king_carlos Thu 18 Feb 2021, 2:26 pm

Duty281 wrote:IPL economics seem odd. I get that bowlers are deemed more worthwhile than batsmen in T20 cricket, but it seems strange that the best T20 batsman in the world goes for a snip at 150k while Glenn Maxwell goes for nearly ten times as much at 1.4 million, or Chris Morris at 1.6 million.

From an England perspective, according to the BBC some players might miss the NZ/Eng test series in June if their IPL teams go far in the competition.  Wouldn't be good if the series was shorn of the likes of Stokes, Archer or Jamieson.
With overseas players it's not just what they offer on the pitch but also their commercial value to the franchise I'd guess. Maxwell will have a huge worth in that regard for instance.

It also just depends on luck of the draw for overseas players as to what franchises with money to spend at the auction each year are looking for that time around. If a franchise has 3 solid Indian top order batsman but are struggling for death bowlers then they will naturally prioritise a guy like Morris over a batsman, despite Malan for instance being a better batsman than Morris is bowler -  in my opinion that is though as Morris has a fantastic T20 record for a guy who bowls in the powerplay and death overs to be fair.

Many franchises retain overseas players from year to year so their budget for overseas signings will be limited at some auctions.

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Post by msp83 Thu 18 Feb 2021, 3:35 pm

Someone like Maxwell is lucky to attract such amounts based on his actual performance. Interestingly, Cheteshwar Pujara gets an IPL bid, one of my favorite players and I don't begrudge the money that's coming his way, but I wish he would have spend a season more of county cricket rather than not playing any cricket as I don't quite se him playing much. CSK has young Gaikwad and Faf du Plessis at the top, and the only position in which Pujara could get a game is at the top, not even 3.
Probably the counties may not be too keen on many overseas players in COVID aftermath, so Pujara might as well enjoy the pay check.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 18 Feb 2021, 3:44 pm

msp83 wrote:Someone like Maxwell is lucky to attract such amounts based on his actual performance. Interestingly, Cheteshwar Pujara gets an IPL bid, one of my favorite players and I don't begrudge the money that's coming his way, but I wish he would have spend a season more of county cricket rather than not playing any cricket as I don't quite se him playing much. CSK has young Gaikwad and Faf du Plessis at the top, and the only position in which Pujara could get a game is at the top, not even 3.
Probably the counties may not be too keen on many overseas players in COVID aftermath, so Pujara might as well enjoy the pay check.
Changes in Kolpak rules due to Brexit means that a lot of former Kolpak players in county cricket are re-signing as overseas players instead, which will cut down the overseas berths. Most the counties weren't in great financial positions prior to covid as well so their budgets will certainly have been effected.

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Post by JDizzle Thu 18 Feb 2021, 6:46 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:IPL economics seem odd. I get that bowlers are deemed more worthwhile than batsmen in T20 cricket, but it seems strange that the best T20 batsman in the world goes for a snip at 150k while Glenn Maxwell goes for nearly ten times as much at 1.4 million, or Chris Morris at 1.6 million.

From an England perspective, according to the BBC some players might miss the NZ/Eng test series in June if their IPL teams go far in the competition.  Wouldn't be good if the series was shorn of the likes of Stokes, Archer or Jamieson.
With overseas players it's not just what they offer on the pitch but also their commercial value to the franchise I'd guess. Maxwell will have a huge worth in that regard for instance.

It also just depends on luck of the draw for overseas players as to what franchises with money to spend at the auction each year are looking for that time around. If a franchise has 3 solid Indian top order batsman but are struggling for death bowlers then they will naturally prioritise a guy like Morris over a batsman, despite Malan for instance being a better batsman than Morris is bowler -  in my opinion that is though as Morris has a fantastic T20 record for a guy who bowls in the powerplay and death overs to be fair.

Many franchises retain overseas players from year to year so their budget for overseas signings will be limited at some auctions.

I would recommend the book Cricket 2.0 by Tim Wigmore and Freddie Wilde for some insight, amongst other things, on the auction process. Basically some teams are run well (MI, KKR) and know how to recruit efficiently and some teams are run badly (I will let you draw your own conclusions!).

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs Thu 18 Feb 2021, 6:49 pm

Maxwell’s future wife is Indian or off Indian heritage, so it’s no surprise that franchises bend over backwards to gift their future son in law 7 figures year after year. Maxwell averages 22 in the IPL with the bat after nearly 100 matches...

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Post by king_carlos Thu 18 Feb 2021, 7:26 pm

JDizzle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:IPL economics seem odd. I get that bowlers are deemed more worthwhile than batsmen in T20 cricket, but it seems strange that the best T20 batsman in the world goes for a snip at 150k while Glenn Maxwell goes for nearly ten times as much at 1.4 million, or Chris Morris at 1.6 million.

From an England perspective, according to the BBC some players might miss the NZ/Eng test series in June if their IPL teams go far in the competition.  Wouldn't be good if the series was shorn of the likes of Stokes, Archer or Jamieson.
With overseas players it's not just what they offer on the pitch but also their commercial value to the franchise I'd guess. Maxwell will have a huge worth in that regard for instance.

It also just depends on luck of the draw for overseas players as to what franchises with money to spend at the auction each year are looking for that time around. If a franchise has 3 solid Indian top order batsman but are struggling for death bowlers then they will naturally prioritise a guy like Morris over a batsman, despite Malan for instance being a better batsman than Morris is bowler -  in my opinion that is though as Morris has a fantastic T20 record for a guy who bowls in the powerplay and death overs to be fair.

Many franchises retain overseas players from year to year so their budget for overseas signings will be limited at some auctions.

I would recommend the book Cricket 2.0 by Tim Wigmore and Freddie Wilde for some insight, amongst other things, on the auction process. Basically some teams are run well (MI, KKR) and know how to recruit efficiently and some teams are run badly (I will let you draw your own conclusions!).
Thanks JD. I'll have a look at it.

I was rereading Scyld Berry's The Game of Life yesterday after it was mentioned on the recent Sky 'vodcast' on Nature vs Nurture in sport which they uploaded to YouTube - it's a good watch/listen if you've got a spare half hour. Between books I've inherited from my Granddad and Dad I've got a pretty hefty collection of cricket books that I've  given too little love lately. I need to dust a few off.

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Post by JDizzle Thu 18 Feb 2021, 8:41 pm

Just glanced over the figures now - seems like if you want to make money is to be a guy who can contribute in both phases of the game. Especially if you are a destructive hitter with the bat.

Morris, Moeen, Henriques, Jamieson, TCurran, Neesham, Maxwell, Christian, Cutting - all guys who went for big money or more than you would think, as they all (some on theory more than on the pitch) bat and bowl to some degree.

Whereas one phase specialists either went unsold - Adil, Hales, Roy, Behrendoff, Finch, Evin Lewis - or went for lower than perhaps you would intuitively think - SSmith, Malan.

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Post by alfie Fri 19 Feb 2021, 5:12 am

Ah thanks , msp.  I do not think we are at war over the pitches  - though it is clear your view of the relative merits (or demerits!) of the first two matches does differ from mine . That is fine : there is really no absolute about pitch standards ; only opinions - or perhaps more accurately , tastes. And those will always vary...
Incidentally I do take your point about commentators appearing to overpraise flatter pitches : just goes to reinforce my suspicion that the world is ruled by batsmen Smile

Just out of interest , I looked back at the official ICC pitch ratings for the last year or two . Not sure whether the results mean that the match referees have been in a good mood or just don't want to stir up controversy ; but they nearly all came out "good" or "very good" , with a scattering of "average". (Just for KP_fan : Adelaide got a "good")

Unless I missed it , there was not a single "below average" recorded , let alone a "poor" or "unfit".  So if either of these two pitches score one of those negative rankings we might have to revisit this wretched argument Smile

One other side note :  You mention in passing a couple of dismissals (Kohli and Stokes) and describe Stokes as having got an unplayable ball , while Kohli was largely the victim of his own impetuosity.  Which surely goes to show that so much of what we see depends on the eye of the beholder : I have had a disagreement , in another place , over that same Stokes dismissal - I was arguing it was wonderful bowling from Ashwin : yet two others , one each English and Indian , declared it was nothing special as a ball and Stokes just threw it away ! (I am confident my view was more accurate ; but neither of those who disputed it are idiots.) In the same way , while I agree Kohli was taking too much on too early , I reckon he was entitled to think himself dead unlucky to get that ball so early in the match.  Shades of grey...

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Post by alfie Fri 19 Feb 2021, 5:18 am

king_carlos wrote:Mo goes for £700k in the IPL auction (CSK). Tom Curran nets £525k with the Delhi Capitals. Dawid Malan goes to Punjab for £150k.

Roy, Billings and Rashid went unsold. As did Alex Hales.

It always surprises me that Dilly hasn't played more franchise cricket. There are a lot of good spinners in India of course so many franchises might prefer to target all rounders and keepers for their overseas players. Dilly is such a class act in white ball cricket these days though.

Was surprised to see they actually televised this "auction" . Watched it for five minutes. Then I switched back to the paint drying channel...

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Post by msp83 Fri 19 Feb 2021, 9:22 am

alfie wrote:Ah thanks , msp.  I do not think we are at war over the pitches  - though it is clear your view of the relative merits (or demerits!) of the first two matches does differ from mine . That is fine : there is really no absolute about pitch standards ; only opinions - or perhaps more accurately , tastes. And those will always vary...
Incidentally I do take your point about commentators appearing to overpraise flatter pitches : just goes to reinforce my suspicion that the world is ruled by batsmen Smile

Just out of interest , I looked back at the official ICC pitch ratings for the last year or two . Not sure whether the results mean that the match referees have been in a good mood or just don't want to stir up controversy ; but they nearly all came out "good" or "very good" , with a scattering of "average". (Just for KP_fan : Adelaide got a "good")

Unless I missed it , there was not a single "below average" recorded , let alone a "poor" or "unfit".  So if either of these two pitches score one of those negative rankings we might have to revisit this wretched argument Smile

One other side note :  You mention in passing a couple of dismissals (Kohli and Stokes) and describe Stokes as having got an unplayable ball , while Kohli was largely the victim of his own impetuosity.  Which surely goes to show that so much of what we see depends on the eye of the beholder : I have had a disagreement , in another place , over that same Stokes dismissal - I was arguing it was wonderful bowling from Ashwin : yet two others , one each English and Indian , declared it was nothing special as a ball and Stokes just threw it away ! (I am confident my view was more accurate ; but neither of those who disputed it are idiots.) In the same way , while I agree Kohli was taking too much on too early , I reckon he was entitled to think himself dead unlucky to get that ball so early in the match.  Shades of grey...
Fair enough alfie.
BTW, have they ever rated a road of a pitch as anything less than average? We've had a few of those in recent times, even the 'sporting' Australians had a few of those absolute worthless drop-in monsters in that period. How many of those got rated poor?

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Post by alfie Fri 19 Feb 2021, 11:32 am

I think that wretched Melbourne pitch in the last Ashes got a negative marking ...might have been "poor" . I sat watching four days of it and can confirm it was the mother of all bowlers' nightmares...a real shocker.
Think there have been a couple of others but haven't trawled back through the records far enough to find them. Given they rate all Tests , t20 , ODI etc , there are rather a lot to check...

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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:11 am

World's largest and probably most colorful stadium will host the T3 an T4
England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 9 Bas10
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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:13 am

The Pitch
https://www.telegraphindia.com/sports/dilemma-over-motera-stadium-pitch-for-india-england-pink-ball-test/cid/1807200

According to sources, both the remaining Test matches will be played on tracks that will offer more turn and aid spinners as the hosts eye a World Test Championship final berth.

“Both type of pitches, red as well as black soil, are there at Motera. India seem intent on playing on a wicket offering more turn — like the one in Chennai during the previous game — keeping in mind the World Test Championship final berth,” someone in the know of things told The Telegraph
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Post by king_carlos Sat 20 Feb 2021, 9:40 am

https://twitter.com/murgersb/status/1362691230023434246

That's 5 days out so naturally still plenty of work to come. I'd imagine that the wickets for T1 and T2 didn't look like that 5 days out though. Interestingly what I've seen before that article suggests that it will be a slightly greener wicket though.

Daljit Singh the former BCCI chief curator before the day-night Test between India and Bangladesh at Eden Gardens spoke about needing less grass on the outfield to counter the dew and more grass on the wicket to counter wear on the pink ball. Whilst talking about that he also mentioned that, "you can't just shave the grass off days before the game or else the pitch will play too slow". Really interesting insight from a pitch curator that you don't usually get.

As that article mentions the quality of the pink ball is improving all the time but my understanding was that worries weren't with the quality of the leather but the pigment finish which is more difficult (some have argued near impossible) to repair when it gets scuffed. Even on abrasive surfaces you can usually keep one side of the red ball shiny to some extent by repairing scuffs but with the pink ball that has seemed difficult on abrasive surfaces.

Day-night Tests in most conditions is still a new thing of course so very much an active experiment in some ways. Of the 15 day-night Tests thus far 8 have been in Australia, 2 in the UAE, 1 each in India, England, New Zealand, South Africa and West Indies. The Pakistan vs Sri Lanka day-nighter in the UAE saw 24 wickets fall to spin and 16 to seam/pace.  The Pakistan vs Windies day-nighter in the UAE saw 22 wickets fall to spin and 9 fall to seam/pace. The India vs Bangladesh game at Eden Gardens saw 27 wickets fall to seam/pace and 1 fall to spin.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 20 Feb 2021, 9:53 am

From an England selection perspective if Jof is fit I have a feeling England might risk one front line spinner in Leach with Jimmy, Jof and Wood making up an aggressive pace and seam attack. It would be tough on Stone who performed well on debut but as said before I reckon England might bank on their regulars after a tough loss.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:22 am

Sam Curran won't be joining up with the England test squad due to logistical issues, though he will be part of the limited-overs games. Doubt he would have played a test anyway so makes little difference to proceedings.

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner and back the seamers to do the job. A traditional English attack with Anderson and Broad; one genuine paceman of which my preference would be Stone, but I'm expecting England to plump for Wood; and one spinner in Leach. Let Root and Stokes bowl a few overs if need be.

Pack the top 7 with right-handers - Crawley/Sibley/Bairstow/Root/Stokes/Pope/Foakes - and don't worry about a lengthy tail.

One note to make is the temperatures are going to be absolutely sizzling in Ahmedabad. The afternoon start means the day's play throughout the test will begin at around 35-37 degrees, before declining to a refreshing 26-28 degrees in the late session. Wouldn't fancy being out in the field for long!

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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:45 am

Thru the pitch Indians have ensured they take the toss out of the equation.
Even in the worst case of ind losing the toss and Eng bats first
There will be enuf turn from 1st sessio to pack Eng off  for 200 at best and perhaps for 150ish

And however bad Ind bats, 300ish they will cross  anyhow and at least against this English attack that has no Swann or Monty like 2013

All that Eng have this time is one who is half of Monty and the other a little less than quarter of Swann .

India will be wary of and have to play out the dangerous Anderson who can reverse with such control and precision
But also will know the creaky nearly 40 year  old bones cannot bowl too long in 33+deg heat.
And should India win the toss, the best case is far more luxurious for India.
With pitch being a turner Pandya is ruled out
Only question will they keep Kuldeep or bring in Sundar to give bating more depth
My preference is the latter
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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:48 am

Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:52 am

KP_fan wrote:World's largest and probably most colorful stadium will host the T3 an T4
England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 9 Bas10

The stadium looks incredible, is it hosting any of the knockout matches during the World T20? Imagine if by then 110,000 can pack out that stadium for a knockout game with India involved, the noise would be deafening!
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Post by king_carlos Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:54 am

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner
https://twitter.com/murgersb/status/1362691230023434246

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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:12 pm

king_carlos wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner
https://twitter.com/murgersb/status/1362691230023434246
This is the strip on 19feb 10am under which lies the pitch for the game on 24th Feb


Last edited by KP_fan on Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:16 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
KP_fan wrote:World's largest and probably most colorful stadium will host the T3 an T4
England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 9 Bas10

The stadium looks incredible, is it hosting any of the knockout matches during the World T20? Imagine if by then 110,000 can pack out that stadium for a knockout game with India involved, the noise would be deafening!
The center of gravity of cricketing power in India has moved from.Eden Garden and Mumbai to Ahmedabad
The home base of PM Modi and his right hand man Shah whose son controls BCCI
So yeah I won't be surprised if Ahmedabad gets the final and maybe one semis too


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Post by king_carlos Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:27 pm

KP_fan wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner
https://twitter.com/murgersb/status/1362691230023434246
This is the strip on 19feb 10am under which lies the pitch for the game on 24th Feb
I commented on it a bit more on my post above.
king_carlos wrote:That's 5 days out so naturally still plenty of work to come. I'd imagine that the wickets for T1 and T2 didn't look like that 5 days out though. Interestingly what I've seen before that article suggests that it will be a slightly greener wicket though.

Daljit Singh the former BCCI chief curator before the day-night Test between India and Bangladesh at Eden Gardens spoke about needing less grass on the outfield to counter the dew and more grass on the wicket to counter wear on the pink ball. Whilst talking about that he also mentioned that, "you can't just shave the grass off days before the game or else the pitch will play too slow". Really interesting insight from a pitch curator that you don't usually get.

The bit from Daljit Singh about cutting a lot of grass from a pitch just before a game and it playing slowly I found really interesting.

With dew on the pitch inevitable under floodlights it would be interesting to see how a pitch with little grass gets affected by the moisture. Perhaps almost harking back to the days of Derek Underwood bowling on uncovered wickets when the footholes would get damp and the ball could skid through them very fast and low.

Often in one day games under lights batsman can struggle to score quickly when a bit of dew takes effect and the wicket get skiddy. Lots of interesting variables.


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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:28 pm

KP_fan wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner
https://twitter.com/murgersb/status/1362691230023434246
This is the strip on 19feb 10am under which lies the pitch for the game on 24th Feb

Doesn't look like it's going to be a rank turner to me.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:34 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner

If it is a 'rank turner' I would want Bess and Leach to play, but it looks highly unlikely that it will be.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 20 Feb 2021, 1:04 pm

king_carlos wrote:From an England selection perspective if Jof is fit I have a feeling England might risk one front line spinner in Leach with Jimmy, Jof and Wood making up an aggressive pace and seam attack. It would be tough on Stone who performed well on debut but as said before I reckon England might bank on their regulars after a tough loss.

And also making up a worrying tail with one of that quartet at number 8. Wink

Sure, they're there to take 20 wickets and it should be the top 7 making the bulk of the runs. As usually should be the case. Still leaves me a bit uneasy though. If the management feel the same, we might see them looking again at Bess or thinking about drafting in Woakes.




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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 1:23 pm

king_carlos wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner !
I see you too have given up on Bess, even on rank turner
https://twitter.com/murgersb/status/1362691230023434246
This is the strip on 19feb 10am under which lies the pitch for the game on 24th Feb
I commented on it a bit more on my post above.
king_carlos wrote:That's 5 days out so naturally still plenty of work to come. I'd imagine that the wickets for T1 and T2 didn't look like that 5 days out though. Interestingly what I've seen before that article suggests that it will be a slightly greener wicket though.

Daljit Singh the former BCCI chief curator before the day-night Test between India and Bangladesh at Eden Gardens spoke about needing less grass on the outfield to counter the dew and more grass on the wicket to counter wear on the pink ball. Whilst talking about that he also mentioned that, "you can't just shave the grass off days before the game or else the pitch will play too slow". Really interesting insight from a pitch curator that you don't usually get.

The bit from Daljit Singh about cutting a lot of grass from a pitch just before a game and it playing slowly I found really interesting.

With dew on the pitch inevitable under floodlights it would be interesting to see how a pitch with little grass gets affected by the moisture. Perhaps almost harking back to the days of Derek Underwood bowling on uncovered wickets when the footholes would get damp and the ball could skid through them very fast and low.

Often in one day games under lights batsman can struggle to score quickly when a bit of dew takes effect and the wicket get skiddy. Lots of interesting variables.

There more chance of the recently landed Martian Rover finding an English speaking Humanoid there in the next one week...
Then this pitch being any less a Turner than the one at Chennai in T2.

I shared the article in Kolkatta Telegraph...already reporting through their "sources" the End-Game with the pitch
& the dilemma they are discussing  is whether they go for a spinning pitch (like Chennai) or Very Spinning Pitch Very Happy

And the "Source " of Telegraph is most believe the BCCI president Ganguly himself...or Ganguly's articulate mouthpiece Boria Majumdar
btw Mortera doe not have "a pitch"...but 11 pitches and 5 are being kept test-match ready....for the Shastri-Kohli led Indian think tank to choose from.
( and Daljit is  out of active hot-action for sometime)
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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 2:08 pm

Duty281 wrote:Sam Curran won't be joining up with the England test squad due to logistical issues, though he will be part of the limited-overs games. Doubt he would have played a test anyway so makes little difference to proceedings.

For the third test, as mentioned before, I hope England only play the one front-line spinner and back the seamers to do the job. A traditional English attack with Anderson and Broad; one genuine paceman of which my preference would be Stone, but I'm expecting England to plump for Wood; and one spinner in Leach. Let Root and Stokes bowl a few overs if need be.

Pack the top 7 with right-handers - Crawley/Sibley/Bairstow/Root/Stokes/Pope/Foakes - and don't worry about a lengthy tail.

One note to make is the temperatures are going to be absolutely sizzling in Ahmedabad. The afternoon start means the day's play throughout the test will begin at around 35-37 degrees, before declining to a refreshing 26-28 degrees in the late session. Wouldn't fancy being out in the field for long!

The Telegraph currently speculating that England's attack will be Anderson, Woakes, Stone and Leach, continuing the rotation policy of Anderson/Broad and giving the batting a little extra strength with Woakes at 8. Crawley still being monitored because of his wrist injury.

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Post by alfie Sat 20 Feb 2021, 2:33 pm

Still too early to call pitch or selection . No ?

See KP_fan is salivating at the prospect of a dustbowl ? OK , if it happens ; but I'd have thought he would be confident of India winning at home without resorting to "cooking" the pitches ? Though to be honest I think he's just stirring Smile

I just want to see a good match. Sure I want an England win ; but at the end of the day I'll salute whoever comes out on top.

Agree with guildford a last four of Leach Wood Archer Anderson is a little too reminiscent of Caddick Tufnell Mullaly Giddins ghost

Most of you are too young to remember that. Think yourselves lucky...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 20 Feb 2021, 2:43 pm

alfie wrote:Still too early to call pitch or selection . No ?

Definitely - it's Sunday! I'd hope England haven't decided on a team based on how a pitch looks almost a week before the game...
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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 20 Feb 2021, 2:54 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Still too early to call pitch or selection . No ?

Definitely - it's Sunday! I'd hope England haven't decided on a team based on how a pitch looks almost a week before the game...
:
Maybe so but that pitch requires some doctoring to make it conducive to spin on day one which will lead to some questions being asked.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 2:59 pm

alfie wrote:Still too early to call pitch or selection . No ?

See KP_fan is salivating at the prospect of a dustbowl ? OK , if it happens ; but I'd have thought he would be confident of India winning at home without resorting to "cooking" the pitches ? Though to be honest I think he's just stirring Smile


India will "cheat and cook" the pitch and roll over Eng in 3 days.
Because after the "sub-standard" pitch at Chennai, some moaning and murmuring from those having no locus-standi notwithstanding
The English team management nor ECB uttered a word.

In fact if they decide to play-on...in one go they can finish both Ahmedabad tests in 5 days😆
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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:06 pm

I read an article in the IndianExpress where the journalist seems to be suggesting that there is a regulation that requires pitches in D/N tests to have atleast a 6mm grass covering left
If that is indeed a regulation then Eng may have found a lucky break to give them something to work with....as then it would harder to make a Day-1 crumbler....not impossible because you can still leave dead or dried grass as opposed to lush & live grass.

However the quality fact finding/ research in  Indian sports journalism is low and facile.
What might be an internal BCCI guideline or was a guideline specific to india's only D/N test in Kolkata vs BD ....is being reported as a regulation.

I tried checking the 6mm grass rule under ICC playing conditions & could not find one
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Post by JDizzle Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:21 pm

KP_fan wrote:I read an article in the IndianExpress where the journalist seems to be suggesting that there is a regulation that requires pitches in D/N tests to have atleast a 6mm grass covering left
If that is indeed a regulation then Eng may have found a lucky break to give them something to work with....as then it would harder to make a Day-1 crumbler....not impossible because you can still leave dead or dried grass as opposed to lush & live grass.

However the quality fact finding/ research in  Indian sports journalism is low and facile.
What might be an internal BCCI guideline or was a guideline specific to india's only D/N test in Kolkata vs BD ....is being reported as a regulation.

I tried checking the 6mm grass rule under ICC playing conditions & could not find one

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/faqs-what-s-the-big-deal-with-pink-ball-tests-1207002

From just before India’s first D/N Test. Doesn’t sound like a rule, just something that needs to be done to aid visibility.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 20 Feb 2021, 5:40 pm

I do find it interesting that even Indian fans concede they can only win by doctoring substandard pitches.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:08 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I do find it interesting that even Indian fans concede they can only win by doctoring substandard pitches.

Yup....After Clive Llyod's Windies....THIS English team the the most fearsome to have visited the shores of India.
And the only way to overcome them is by Multi-Layered conspiracies including but not limited to:

1- Producing sub-standard , designer, dust bowl, doctored pitches obviously knowing that we can use these pitches better with bat and bowl... them and the "fearsome" visitors cannot

2-Secretly Break the Integrity of the visitors top players by offering them new lPL contracts or promising renewal to those who are holding contracts....don't believe it look at facts:
a- While I like Maligned Ali.....he is no where close to Million Dollar worth he was paid
why?
to bowl expensively in first inning and reserve all his Sixes for the fag end when the fat lady had sung.
and who picked him for a Million $$ fee ( reward)?...Kohli's RCB Shocked

b- IPL Star Stokes passed the message......" Do not Declare yourself fit enuf to bowl" Smile
and if they force you to....trundle in at 120kph , until in disgust the captain concludes " heck I can bowl better"

c- Ditto Archer.....develop a mysterious elbow pain until further notice

3- And if none of the above works, there is a plan-C ...to spike the food and beverages of Anderson and Root with Diarrhea-bacteria. It will pass as a coincidence that "often happens when you tour subcontinent"

All is fair when your backside is on fire and at stakes is world championship final.
One fearsome side on the verge of a K.O in a world cup in a home game....brought the legside boundary in to make it 40 metres when their back was on fire laughing
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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:21 pm

Someone seems a bit flustered and bothered knowing his team can't win fairly, I await your dazzling response.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:21 pm

JDizzle wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I read an article in the IndianExpress where the journalist seems to be suggesting that there is a regulation that requires pitches in D/N tests to have atleast a 6mm grass covering left
If that is indeed a regulation then Eng may have found a lucky break to give them something to work with....as then it would harder to make a Day-1 crumbler....not impossible because you can still leave dead or dried grass as opposed to lush & live grass.

However the quality fact finding/ research in  Indian sports journalism is low and facile.
What might be an internal BCCI guideline or was a guideline specific to india's only D/N test in Kolkata vs BD ....is being reported as a regulation.

I tried checking the 6mm grass rule under ICC playing conditions & could not find one

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/faqs-what-s-the-big-deal-with-pink-ball-tests-1207002

From just before India’s first D/N Test. Doesn’t sound like a rule, just something that needs to be done to aid visibility.
thx for locating this. As I expected the Indian Express journo jumped the gun and took the self declared guideline to be a rule
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Post by KP_fan Sat 20 Feb 2021, 7:29 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Someone seems a bit flustered and bothered knowing his team can't win fairly, I await your dazzling response.

there is nothing new to respond with....I conceded in agreement when you said so the first time Very Happy
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Post by king_carlos Mon 22 Feb 2021, 8:49 pm

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-vs-england-2020-21-adapting-to-the-pink-ball-will-be-key-says-england-batting-coach-graham-thorpe-1252616

Anderson, Archer, Baistow and Crawley all expected to be available for selection.

Most the suggestions from pundits in India seem to be that England will go with 3 seamers and 1 spinner. If Archer is fully fit I'd personally go with two quicks and Jimmy. Jof is good enough with the moving ball to utilise the pink ball in my opinion. So Jimmy, Jof and one from Wood/Stone.

I can certainly see the value in picking Broad for his experience or Woakes for batting depth though. Without Woakes or Bess we would be leaving a longer tail than England usually go for.

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Post by JDizzle Mon 22 Feb 2021, 9:46 pm

Nick Hoult at the Telegraph reporting that Marcus Trescothick will become England's full time batting coach across all three formats.

I may be slightly biased as he is my favourite cricketer, but I think he will be a tremendous appointment. A man who cracked all three formats before anyone else in England had any idea how to, and a man who knows the mental pressures international cricket can have on you.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/02/22/england-offer-marcus-trescothick-batting-coach-role-full-time/

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Post by king_carlos Mon 22 Feb 2021, 10:39 pm

I'd agree wholeheartedly with that JD. Tres was a marvelous player and has an excellent reputation as a young coach. My only slight concern would be the travelling involved given his struggles as a player but from watching the Sky cricket vodcast released during the first lockdown with Tress and Trott talking about mental health issues it does seem he is in a much better place now, thankfully.

Does that mean that Thorpe won't be involved long term or is he in a ECB coaching role that covers several roles as well as the senior team? I know in the past England have had coaches that will work at Loughborough with all the players there from juniors up, help with the Lions, checkup with prospects at counties and then be in the England camp during some series and tours. More of a consultancy role as it were.

I hope Trott also stays involved as a coach for similar reasons. He has a huge knowledge of batting as a pretty obsessive cricketer and has a good rep for a young coach.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 22 Feb 2021, 10:59 pm

I can't see this affecting Thorpes role in the set up, he's an assistant to Silverwood alongside Collingwood.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 23 Feb 2021, 10:15 am

king_carlos wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-vs-england-2020-21-adapting-to-the-pink-ball-will-be-key-says-england-batting-coach-graham-thorpe-1252616

Anderson, Archer, Baistow and Crawley all expected to be available for selection.

Most the suggestions from pundits in India seem to be that England will go with 3 seamers and 1 spinner. If Archer is fully fit I'd personally go with two quicks and Jimmy. Jof is good enough with the moving ball to utilise the pink ball in my opinion. So Jimmy, Jof and one from Wood/Stone.

I can certainly see the value in picking Broad for his experience or Woakes for batting depth though. Without Woakes or Bess we would be leaving a longer tail than England usually go for.

Team selection appears to be Anderson, Archer and one of Woakes or Broad. Leach being the frontline spinner, Root the second. Pleased about the balance of the team and think that England will have got it right if they do go for one specialist spinner. The call over Woakes/Broad might come down to whether or not England want Leach coming out at 8.

The England camp seems rather chipper, they seem very happy about how much the ball is doing in the nets. Pre-series I went for a 3-1 win to India, but this was the test I thought England would win.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 23 Feb 2021, 10:38 am

Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/india-vs-england-2020-21-adapting-to-the-pink-ball-will-be-key-says-england-batting-coach-graham-thorpe-1252616

Anderson, Archer, Baistow and Crawley all expected to be available for selection.

Most the suggestions from pundits in India seem to be that England will go with 3 seamers and 1 spinner. If Archer is fully fit I'd personally go with two quicks and Jimmy. Jof is good enough with the moving ball to utilise the pink ball in my opinion. So Jimmy, Jof and one from Wood/Stone.

I can certainly see the value in picking Broad for his experience or Woakes for batting depth though. Without Woakes or Bess we would be leaving a longer tail than England usually go for.

Team selection appears to be Anderson, Archer and one of Woakes or Broad. Leach being the frontline spinner, Root the second. Pleased about the balance of the team and think that England will have got it right if they do go for one specialist spinner. The call over Woakes/Broad might come down to whether or not England want Leach coming out at 8.

The England camp seems rather chipper, they seem very happy about how much the ball is doing in the nets. Pre-series I went for a 3-1 win to India, but this was the test I thought England would win.

They can't go in with Leach at 8. He is a 10 or a 9 at absolute best. I get that your top 7 should score the runs but that just isn't how cricket works, especially with a team that has just been rolled over for not many runs in the last test.

I would rather they went for Woakes despite his poor record overseas. He must be chomping at the bit to give up carrying the drinks so give him a chance with a pink ball. At least he is a genuine number 8. I wouldn't actually mind Stone getting another shot ahead of Archer but don't think they will do that.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 23 Feb 2021, 10:47 am

Taking into account the pitch and the pink ball, i'd be going with the following team;

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes (he's the only one capable of batting at 8, the conditions should suit him as well)
Leach
Archer
Anderson

For the fourth test i'd bringing in Bairstow for Crawley and have him opening but if the pacemen are expected to come to the forefront his technique is not good enough for selection.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 23 Feb 2021, 11:10 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Taking into account the pitch and the pink ball, i'd be going with the following team;

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Woakes (he's the only one capable of batting at 8, the conditions should suit him as well)
Leach
Archer
Anderson

For the fourth test i'd bringing in Bairstow for Crawley and have him opening but if the pacemen are expected to come to the forefront his technique is not good enough for selection.

That is pretty much the team I would go for as well with the exception of Stone for Archer but that is a very marginal call.

Burns has to be in last chance saloon here I think though. Bairstow will almost certainly come in for the last test but I wouldn't be surprised to see him at 3 tomorrow. I guess it depends on how Crawley's wrist is holding up as well.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Location : Outside there's a box car waiting, outside the family stew. Out by the fire breathing, outside we wait till face turns blue. I know the nervous walking, I know the dirty beard hangs. Out by the box car waiting, take me away to nowhere plans. There is a wait so long (so long, so long). You'll never wait so long. Here comes Julius. Here comes Julius. Here comes Julius.

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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 9 Empty Re: England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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