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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:10 am

England have got out of deeper holes than this one in recent years Actually I don't think they have. This would be the greatest escape of them all.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:12 am

KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

Self pity might be getting some fans at present . Don't think it will derail the England players .

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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:14 am

alfie wrote:Sorry , JD : I am not intending to write an innings out of history ! Just attempting to clarify my original statement that "his good innings have nearly all come against spin heavy opposition "

Without wishing to go nit-picking , I think that is a fair statement , no ?

The previous innings you mention is indeed one I'd rate as close to his best. And I think if recall he made it so principally by destroying Yasir Shah .
I don't think we really disagree that much. You are more of a Buttler fan , I think. I'm just trying to be fair to both sides of the argument ...blame Soul for starting it Smile

Yeah, I think his most consistent runs of scores have come in the sub continent against spin heavy attacks - but I do think his best innings have come in England against strong seam attacks, even if they are traditional spin heavy countries. I think that is where I am in a sentence. Whereas we only have a body of work against spin for Foakes, as his two Tests outside Asia were very uninspiring. I am sure he will get a chance at some point to correct that.

I guess if Buttler had proven himself against spin and pace then we wouldn’t even be debating who plays between them. And really, in the grand scheme of things, it isn’t close to England’s biggest problem.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:41 am

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"
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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:55 am

Of Academic Interest would be if Eng will avoid a Rohit-defeat

So far Rohit sharma is 52 runs ahead Eng....and I would be ready to bet Eng will surpass him.
I remember as a kid the headingley test of 1986 where Eng looked like not being able to avoid a Vengsarkar defeat....but they did well in the end to surpass vengsarkar's match tally by 40 odd runs Very Happy
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Post by Gooseberry Sun 14 Feb 2021, 11:57 am

If this were england we would all be asking why they haven't declared yet.

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 12:46 pm

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

OK I know you like stirring ...but what have you told us ?

We can of course disagree on the relative merits of the two spinners at this stage of their careers ; and it remains to be seen what the rest of the series brings. Opinions are free ; so all I can offer is a couple of facts.

Last week , Bess took 4/76 (all top order players) in India's first innings on a pitch that was still playing reasonably well. England went on to win. Got some useful runs too , as it happens.
This week , Moeen took 4/128 on an apparent minefield - and two of them were rabbits. England are going to be hammered. Made six.

You may yet be proved correct . But not on that evidence...

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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:07 pm

Good to see Mark Waugh, a neutral observer, call out this pitch as unacceptable. India will win this test match, almost certainly, and the main difference between the teams has been Rohit's extraordinary innings and the awful selection of Moeen - this really should be his last test match, I can't see him playing in either of the next two tests, and I can't see why England would ever pick him on non-subcontinental pitches again.

Sadly the test has been overshadowed by the diabolical pitch - any county side producing this would get a hefty points deduction - and the utter travesty of the umpiring. At best the umpiring has been incompetent. At worst it's cheating. When you get three objectively wrong decisions go against one team, that were all clear and obvious as to be 'out' but given 'not out', it becomes very suspicious. It reminds me of when Chelsea were denied three or four stonewall penalties against Barcelona, that was highly suspicious (though probably incompetence).

On the good side for England we've seen positive performances from Stone, Foakes and Leach. Leach is now comfortably England's number-one spinner and we can only hope he stays fit, healthy and continues to improve. Foakes has displayed excellent keeping ability (no extras in the Indian first innings, phenomenal) and a gritty innings with the bat. I've long said that Buttler isn't a test-standard player, though he has shown flashes of it from time-to-time, and I'd prefer to see England keep him as a limited-overs specialist while utilising Foakes as a test specialist. Unlikely to happen though because England have travelled so far down this current road with Buttler.

On the negative side, Burns still looks well short of being test-match quality and doesn't seem to be improving, but England have long since run out of openers to replace him with. Lawrence has looked a little lost in his last few innings, though the potential is clearly there. Moeen as previously said.

Let's see how England can come back from this one. They should relish the pink-ball test with a chance to utilise their seaming advantage to maximum effect. And let's see if they can take any positives from the next two-three days.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:28 pm

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

OK I know you like stirring ...but what have you told us ?  

We can of course disagree on the relative merits of the two spinners at this stage of their careers ; and it remains to be seen what the rest of the series brings. Opinions are free ; so all I can offer is a couple of facts.

Last week , Bess took 4/76 (all top order players) in India's first innings on a pitch that was still playing reasonably well.  England went on to win.  Got some useful runs too , as it happens.
This week , Moeen took 4/128 on an apparent minefield - and two of them were rabbits. England are going to be hammered.  Made six.

You may yet be proved correct . But not on that evidence...

Attempt to pass on opinion labelled as facts in bold fonts...but not successful
mine though has the credibility of Eng selectors' backing Cool
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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:Good to see Mark Waugh, a neutral observer, call out this pitch as unacceptable. India will win this test match, almost certainly, and the main difference between the teams has been Rohit's extraordinary innings and the awful selection of Moeen - this really should be his last test match, I can't see him playing in either of the next two tests, and I can't see why England would ever pick him on non-subcontinental pitches again.

Sadly the test has been overshadowed by the diabolical pitch - any county side producing this would get a hefty points deduction - and the utter travesty of the umpiring. At best the umpiring has been incompetent. At worst it's cheating. When you get three objectively wrong decisions go against one team, that were all clear and obvious as to be 'out' but given 'not out', it becomes very suspicious. It reminds me of when Chelsea were denied three or four stonewall penalties against Barcelona, that was highly suspicious (though probably incompetence).

On the good side for England we've seen positive performances from Stone, Foakes and Leach. Leach is now comfortably England's number-one spinner and we can only hope he stays fit, healthy and continues to improve. Foakes has displayed excellent keeping ability (no extras in the Indian first innings, phenomenal) and a gritty innings with the bat. I've long said that Buttler isn't a test-standard player, though he has shown flashes of it from time-to-time, and I'd prefer to see England keep him as a limited-overs specialist while utilising Foakes as a test specialist. Unlikely to happen though because England have travelled so far down this current road with Buttler.

On the negative side, Burns still looks well short of being test-match quality and doesn't seem to be improving, but England have long since run out of openers to replace him with. Lawrence has looked a little lost in his last few innings, though the potential is clearly there. Moeen as previously said.

Let's see how England can come back from this one. They should relish the pink-ball test with a chance to utilise their seaming advantage to maximum effect. And let's see if they can take any positives from the next two-three days.

Mark Waugh has no Locus Standi.
Let ECB and Eng's tour management call it with specific observations and relevant playing conditions clauses that have been violated.

Only then it shall be reviewed seriously by ICC
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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:43 pm

KP_fan wrote:My forecast of this game
India 200
Eng 160
India 200
Eng 120

here I bump this from 1st session of D1..
Eng juts didn't have the quality in the bowling to hold India to 200
It wasn't juts about spinners...but Anderson who could reverse....like he did in T1, but for whom...India might have eeked out a draw.
And Stokes the proponent of reverse as we saw him on previous tours and IPL at 140kph......was missing
and Eng didn't have a frontline 5th bowler to call upon.

Had Eng restricted India to 200ish...they would have gone into 4th inning needing 240ish and in with an outside chance.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 14 Feb 2021, 1:44 pm

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

KP-f - I believe this would be an even better forum if at times you looked to learn from it.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:04 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

KP-f - I believe this would be an even better forum if at times you looked to learn from it.

You are propagating what's called a Strawman argument....you ain't the only one ....these days it occurs in all forms of social media Shocked
Meanwhile another "learning" from the forum
When Eng wins 3 in a row( sorry 6 in a row) in subcontinent and 6 in a row overseas nearing their all time high since dinosaur era....the selectors / management / establishment are all hailed great
Only to be pulled down to earth for bad elections having a bad day ( well a day and a half)
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:12 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Logically Kuldeep should come in for Nadeem..that's it.....but you never know with kohli....he gets a last minute itch and gambles in the hope of a extra-clever-magic-bullet type unexpected selection


So selectors sometimes get it wrong as you've previously acknowledged yourself?

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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:39 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Logically Kuldeep should come in for Nadeem..that's it.....but you never know with kohli....he gets a last minute itch and gambles in the hope of a extra-clever-magic-bullet type unexpected selection


So selectors sometimes get it wrong as you've previously acknowledged yourself?

Actually my point was Kohli who is the strongest & dominating voice in selecting the playing-11...generally gets one selection wrong owing to his last minutes desire to find a clever magic bullet

is different from saying

we have a good establishment of selector/ management when on a historic winning run.....and holding them responsible for one bad day on field amidst that historic run
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:40 pm

No both are exactly the same.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:45 pm

Another good day in office for India. The bowlers did a fine job dismissing England out for 134, and then Rohit led the way to ensure the new ball hasn't done too much damage. Again goes to show, you can do alright on this track if you have the game to play spin. Interesting tactics from the Indian batsmen, bat behind the pad, bat as the 2nd line of defense, and a greater possibility of late adjustment....
India should not get complacent, should bat well tomorrow and build that lead as much as possible. There is Root, and Stokes in that lineup, and with Moeen Ali at 8, they bat long. The Indian lead already, will be a challenging 4th innings score for sure on that track, but India should learn from England in the first test, shut the opposition out completely.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:47 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:No both are exactly the same.

OK....i respectfully hear your opinion There are no tipping points for a winning opinion.

I wish Rohit cracks another 100 tomm ...and maligned ali gets a 5-for and then cracks a 40 odd with the bat and gets me some more points

I also wish...Eng show some fight with the bat in second inning......and come back competitive in Ahmedabad..... we would all love to see a 5 day thriller.
And for that Eng need to revisit their wicket taking resources in the playing 11
Imagine Root has bowled more overs in a single inning of this test that Either Broad or Stokes in both innings put together so far....and that's the elephant in the room Shocked
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Post by Gooseberry Sun 14 Feb 2021, 2:59 pm

KP_fan wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

KP-f - I believe this would be an even better forum if at times you looked to learn from it.

You are propagating what's called a Strawman argument....you ain't the only one ....these days it occurs in all forms of social media Shocked
Meanwhile another "learning" from the forum
When Eng wins 3 in a row( sorry 6 in a row) in subcontinent and 6 in a row overseas nearing their all time high since dinosaur era....the selectors / management / establishment are all hailed great
Only to be pulled down to earth for bad elections having a bad day ( well a day and a half)


To be honest I dont think the selectors did anything wrong for England here. Dom Bess is not going to fix their batting issues against spin or change the toss. They couldve had Chuck Norris playing and theyd still be massive underdogs.

Maybe the margin of the defeat would've been different but they were always going to lose on a pitch like this batting second.

As for the Mo argument, Indian fans probably have a different view of him because he has had most of his success against them.. Quite why that is is a bit of a mystery, although some of it has to be down to him bowling an attacking length and asking to be hit. Bess was criticized last winter and this summer for being too easy to defend against and scared of leaking runs. now he's dropped for getting hit less than Mo.

England fans have seen the flip side of him over the years, long periods of being absolutely awful with either bat or ball or both and a series of meltdowns making him unselectable. Him being bought on the tour at all felt like desperation and the same sort of thinking that got Samit Patel a start in the series they went on to turn around.

As it stands hes on course to be one of the technically worst bowlers to 200 test wickets. Then again I seem to remember Ishant Sharma was described as the worst bowler to ever get 200 test wickets, and he's been pretty brilliant since. Mo must be doing something right, but Roots economy and taking a wicket to boot does suggest that pretty much any spinner could be a threat on this.

Ive been won over by the arguments given by the England leadership for their selections for this test as making the best of a bad situation and said before it started that they would get unfair criticism and the blame if England lost the toss. They'd be in a worse situation if they had to dump Bess for the 3rd test and had Anderson and Archer break down with injuries during this one. Its highly unlikely they'd be in a winning position were they playing.

Ditto Buttler, we could go on all day about him vs Foakes but I guarantee half the internet would be blaming Butlers selection for India making 300 if he hadn't got rested.

Any team batting second here was going to struggle. Doubly so England who are poor against raging turn.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:02 pm

On the pitch issue, I have enjoyed this test match far more than the last one, not just because India is doing well, but because the ball has had the upperhand over the bat. Perhaps the ball has had greater dominance than ideal, but pitches that would only wake up only after tea on day 4, watching those test matches that are dependent too much on toss, I find those a terrible experience. Batsmen are having a free run in limited overs. 370 has become the ODI par score, and T-20 is now going at 8 an over as the minimum. Let the batsmen earn their runs in test cricket.
We've had pitches in New Zealand where one can't differentiate the pitch from the outfield. In the last England tour, there was that test match in which India got shot out in some 30 overs for 107 or something, the ball was going around corners even in the 30th over.
In the subcontinent, the kind of overheads conditions that would enable the ball to swing round corners are unlikely to be available. Then it is through regulating the pitch watering and grass content and perhaps soil mixing that a lively track can be ensured. There is no science to that and often they don't get it exactly right. The whole thing gets exaggerated when touring teams can't play spin that well.
Even today, that was never a 134 allout track. England should have learned their lessons, and gone on the guard against the new ball. If they had emerged 2 or 3 down in the first 25 overs, things may have been different... The Foakes-Pope partnership did show that it was not impossible to survive on that track once the ball had become soft. Pope had to be prised out with a fine catch, and Foakes, he of the compact batting technique against spin, they couldn't get through him.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:10 pm

Another reason why the pitch seemed more challenging than it actually was, because not only where England not the greatest against spin in spinning conditions, but also India's bowling was more equipped to make use of the helpful conditions.
We see that again in Australia. The Indian seamers, the likes of Ishant and Shami, took them 3 tours to figure out the Australian line and length. Earlier the Indians would go in with military mediums or just 1 decent seamer in Zaheer or Srinath. But even after finding the likes of Umesh and Shami and Ishant, they couldn't initially make much of an impact as they kept bowling the subcontinent line on the stumps, and the subcontinent length.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:18 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

KP-f - I believe this would be an even better forum if at times you looked to learn from it.

You are propagating what's called a Strawman argument....you ain't the only one ....these days it occurs in all forms of social media Shocked
Meanwhile another "learning" from the forum
When Eng wins 3 in a row( sorry 6 in a row) in subcontinent and 6 in a row overseas nearing their all time high since dinosaur era....the selectors / management / establishment are all hailed great
Only to be pulled down to earth for bad elections having a bad day ( well a day and a half)


To be honest I dont think the selectors did anything wrong for England here. Dom Bess is not going to fix their batting issues against spin or change the toss. They couldve had Chuck Norris playing and theyd still be massive underdogs.

Maybe the margin of the defeat would've been different but they were always going to lose on a pitch like this batting second.

As for the Mo argument, Indian fans probably have a different view of him because he has had most of his success against them.. Quite why that is is a bit of a mystery, although some of it has to be down to him bowling an attacking length and asking to be hit. Bess was criticized last winter and this summer for being too easy to defend against and scared of leaking runs. now he's dropped for getting hit less than Mo.

England fans have seen the flip side of him over the years, long periods of being absolutely awful with either bat or ball or both and a series of meltdowns making him unselectable. Him being bought on the tour at all felt like desperation and the same sort of thinking that got Samit Patel a start in the series they went on to turn around.

As it stands hes on course to be one of the technically worst bowlers to 200 test wickets. Then again I seem to remember Ishant Sharma was described as the worst bowler to ever get 200 test wickets, and he's been pretty brilliant since. Mo must be doing something right, but Roots economy and taking a wicket to boot does suggest that pretty much any spinner could be a threat on this.

Ive been won over by the arguments given by the England leadership for their selections for this test as making the best of a bad situation and said before it started that they would get unfair criticism and the blame if England lost the toss. They'd be in a worse situation if they had to dump Bess for the 3rd test and had Anderson and Archer break down with injuries during this one. Its highly unlikely they'd be in a winning position were they playing.

Ditto Buttler, we could go on all day about him vs Foakes but I guarantee half the internet would be blaming Butlers selection for India making 300 if he hadn't got rested.  

Any team batting second here was going to struggle. Doubly so England who are poor against raging turn.
Agree that the Indian supporters are likely to see another side of Moeen. The Indian batting had its fingers burned far too many times trying to take him down. Even in the last tour that was less than 3 years ago, he had bowled them to a test win. And he has had some success with the bat too, last tour to India, he was among the runs.
Must say I was still surprised to see him being selected over Bess, and lets be honest, Bess was dropped and not rested. Bess had done a decent job in the last test. Arguably without him, England wouldn't have capitalized on Root's excellent innings to win that test. He had really wrecked the Indian top order in the first innings, that eventually made all the difference. Even if India had scored another 60 -70 runs in the first innings, they may very well have managed a draw... Again said that, after that 4 wicket burst, Bess failed to land most of his deliveries subsequently. But compared to Ali, he's young, and has done alright in his test career so far, and probably should have been backed more, particularly when you consider that Ali has never been someone who would offer control in terms of the runs.

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:24 pm

msp83 wrote:England should have learned their lessons, and gone on the guard against the new ball.

Before the innings started all the pundits were saying England should learn from Rohit and their top 3 not get trapped into such a defensive survival mindset as they've had all winter.


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Post by KP_fan Sun 14 Feb 2021, 3:36 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
msp83 wrote:England should have learned their lessons, and gone on the guard against the new ball.  

Before the innings started  all the pundits were saying England should learn from Rohit and their top 3 not get trapped into such a defensive survival mindset as they've had all winter.


And I hope Eng did not take the bait of trying to bat like the biggest Home Track Bully of all times Very Happy
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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 6:40 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
msp83 wrote:England should have learned their lessons, and gone on the guard against the new ball.  

Before the innings started  all the pundits were saying England should learn from Rohit and their top 3 not get trapped into such a defensive survival mindset as they've had all winter.

Everyone can't bat like Virender Sehwag or David Warner or not even Rohit Sharma. Rohit's approach, even on a flat track, is a high risk one. While he has his temperamental issues, he has the range of shots to make a good fist of a risky approach for others. Young Gill is also quite organized against spin. As for Cheteshwar Pujara, he's probably even better than Kohli in playing in spinning conditions. Burns or Sibley are not that type of players, Lawrence is still finding his feet in international cricket and seems to have issues against spin and pace, but it is to be noted that of the top 3, it is he who survived the most... If Root or Stokes would have come in to face a 20 over ball at the least, things might have been easier for them.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 7:38 pm

msp83 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
msp83 wrote:England should have learned their lessons, and gone on the guard against the new ball.  

Before the innings started  all the pundits were saying England should learn from Rohit and their top 3 not get trapped into such a defensive survival mindset as they've had all winter.

Everyone can't bat like Virender Sehwag or David Warner or not even Rohit Sharma. Rohit's approach, even on a flat track, is a high risk one. While he has his temperamental issues, he has the range of shots to make a good fist of a risky approach for others. Young Gill is also quite organized against spin. As for Cheteshwar Pujara, he's probably even better than Kohli in playing in spinning conditions. Burns or Sibley are not that type of players, Lawrence is still finding his feet in international cricket and seems to have issues against spin and pace, but it is to be noted that of the top 3, it is he who survived the most... If Root or Stokes would have come in to face a 20 over ball at the least, things might have been easier for them.
Before the series a few of us mentioned that if Rohit gets it right in home conditions then he can win a match very quickly. So it proved. That first innings effort was unbelievable.

I think the key thing from your discussion around different Indian players of spin there msp83 is that batsman need to find their own method. A few England bats are learning that on the job against Ashwin though, a very tough task. With Crawley and Bairstow due to be available for T3 I'd predict that at least one if not both of Burns and Lawrence might be under threat.

The 90 minutes that Pujara soaked up on day 1 was absolutely vital. Not losing more early wickets allowed Rohit to play his way and set the foundation for Rahane to play against a softer ball that was doing less.

A few reports I've seen in England are concentrating on the pitch and 15 wickets falling on day 2. Of those 15 wickets though, India losing 4 for 29 runs as a weak tail collapsed isn't particularly out of the ordinary, nor is losing 1 for 54 runs. The outlier is England losing 10 wickets for 134 runs.

A poor pitch yes but I maintain it's no harder batting on this than on an overcast day at Trent Bridge with some grass on the top and a Duke ball. England have been undone by Rohit batting better than any of our batsman and Ashwin bowling better than any of our bowlers. Kudos to them.

My hope for England is that we bowl India out for around 200 so that the bowlers can take away some confidence and don't spend a very long time in the field. From there a respectable batting display with the top order more intact when the ball softens and things quiet down. England would have taken 1-1 going into the day-night Test where they will hope for the pink ball to swing more.

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Post by msp83 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:
msp83 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
msp83 wrote:England should have learned their lessons, and gone on the guard against the new ball.  

Before the innings started  all the pundits were saying England should learn from Rohit and their top 3 not get trapped into such a defensive survival mindset as they've had all winter.

Everyone can't bat like Virender Sehwag or David Warner or not even Rohit Sharma. Rohit's approach, even on a flat track, is a high risk one. While he has his temperamental issues, he has the range of shots to make a good fist of a risky approach for others. Young Gill is also quite organized against spin. As for Cheteshwar Pujara, he's probably even better than Kohli in playing in spinning conditions. Burns or Sibley are not that type of players, Lawrence is still finding his feet in international cricket and seems to have issues against spin and pace, but it is to be noted that of the top 3, it is he who survived the most... If Root or Stokes would have come in to face a 20 over ball at the least, things might have been easier for them.
Before the series a few of us mentioned that if Rohit gets it right in home conditions then he can win a match very quickly. So it proved. That first innings effort was unbelievable.

I think the key thing from your discussion around different Indian players of spin there msp83 is that batsman need to find their own method. A few England bats are learning that on the job against Ashwin though, a very tough task. With Crawley and Bairstow due to be available for T3 I'd predict that at least one if not both of Burns and Lawrence might be under threat.

The 90 minutes that Pujara soaked up on day 1 was absolutely vital. Not losing more early wickets allowed Rohit to play his way and set the foundation for Rahane to play against a softer ball that was doing less.

A few reports I've seen in England are concentrating on the pitch and 15 wickets falling on day 2. Of those 15 wickets though, India losing 4 for 29 runs as a weak tail collapsed isn't particularly out of the ordinary, nor is losing 1 for 54 runs. The outlier is England losing 10 wickets for 134 runs.

A poor pitch yes but I maintain it's no harder batting on this than on an overcast day at Trent Bridge with some grass on the top and a Duke ball. England have been undone by Rohit batting better than any of our batsman and Ashwin bowling better than any of our bowlers. Kudos to them.

My hope for England is that we bowl India out for around 200 so that the bowlers can take away some confidence and don't spend a very long time in the field. From there a respectable batting display with the top order more intact when the ball softens and things quiet down. England would have taken 1-1 going into the day-night Test where they will hope for the pink ball to swing more.
Agree with all that, KC. Root is a master of the sweep shot. But in the first test pitch that was a road, the shot is a risker option with the extra bounce in play. But other than Root, the likes of Sibley should have been careful not to overdoo the shot. Sibley in fact, batted the entire first day in the first test for his 87, really took his time. He didn't seem to trust his defense, trust his game to work for him and was trying to play away from his strength and failed. As you said, even when he failed to put up a substantial score on the board, Pujara's day one effort proved to be handy eventually...

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:10 pm

Commnets here from Rohit suggest theres a bit more specific craft than just going out and taking risks. Very considered plans for each bowler and whats happening. The fact is he knows his game in these conditions very well, the England batsmen simply dont.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ind-vs-eng-2nd-test-rohit-sharma-pleased-with-proactive-approach-on-chennai-turner-1251653

Hate to admit it but I'm in agreement with Dobell for once, even if just just another excuse for him to lay into English cricket https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ind-vs-eng-2nd-test-chennai-2nd-day-english-attitudes-towards-turning-pitches-need-to-change-1251770

Theres issues with this test, but that shouldn't mask the problems with Englands team, and arguably test cricket in general. Batting is clueless and Mo's bowling way too loose on this type of surface. Batting second made this inevitable.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:20 pm

It's a good article from Dobell that, thanks Goose.

But many Tests in England see conditions - the pitch, the ball and the atmospherics - which provide substantial assistance to bowlers, too. It's just the bowlers favoured tend to be seamers rather than spinners. And to some eyes, particularly those brought up on a diet of such conditions, that seems more palatable. That attitude probably requires reflection.

There weren't too many complaints when Ireland were bowled out for 38 at Lord's in 2019. Or when England were bowled for 85 earlier in the same game. And there weren't too many complaints when Australia were bowled out for 60 at Trent Bridge in 2015. Or when England went from August 2017 to July 2020 without registering 400 in their first innings of a home Test. Even on India's most recent tour to England, they were put in at Lord's in conditions that effectively decided the game within three hours. Isn't it unreasonable to consider seam and swing acceptable and spin unacceptable?

Those two paragraphs in particular sum-up my feelings pretty well.

Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong...  Laugh


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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 8:28 pm

msp83 wrote:Agree with all that, KC. Root is a master of the sweep shot. But in the first test pitch that was a road, the shot is a risker option with the extra bounce in play. But other than Root, the likes of Sibley should have been careful not to overdoo the shot. Sibley in fact, batted the entire first day in the first test for his 87, really took his time. He didn't seem to trust his defense, trust his game to work for him and was trying to play away from his strength and failed. As you said, even when he failed to put up a substantial score on the board, Pujara's day one effort proved to be handy eventually...
In the first Test the flat track meant that Sibley could play back and across, working the ball to leg from right in front of his stumps. If he missed it he'd be plumb but the pitch was flat, the bounce reliable and the turn slow so not too much of a risk. Had he tried playing the ball from bang in front his stumps on this pitch then sooner or later he'd get one that bounces variably though.

I'd have preferred to see Root use his footwork like Pujara and Rahane earlier on rather than his sweep. Then try to bring the sweep in later when the ball was softer. Root is very good at coming down the track to smother the ball at the pitch so that's a reasonable option for him. Sibey and Burns aren't too adept at that though, playing from the crease on these wickets is tough against Ashwin bowling well.

I still think this is an England side that are improving under Silverwood. As we know there are significant issues still in the top order batting and the bowling overseas, particularly spinners. Those issues have been laid bare by key India players showing class and a tough wicket.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:03 pm

king_carlos wrote:It's a good article from Dobell that, thanks Goose.

But many Tests in England see conditions - the pitch, the ball and the atmospherics - which provide substantial assistance to bowlers, too. It's just the bowlers favoured tend to be seamers rather than spinners. And to some eyes, particularly those brought up on a diet of such conditions, that seems more palatable. That attitude probably requires reflection.

There weren't too many complaints when Ireland were bowled out for 38 at Lord's in 2019. Or when England were bowled for 85 earlier in the same game. And there weren't too many complaints when Australia were bowled out for 60 at Trent Bridge in 2015. Or when England went from August 2017 to July 2020 without registering 400 in their first innings of a home Test. Even on India's most recent tour to England, they were put in at Lord's in conditions that effectively decided the game within three hours. Isn't it unreasonable to consider seam and swing acceptable and spin unacceptable?

Those two paragraphs in particular sum-up my feelings pretty well.

Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong...  Laugh

Dobell's missed the point. The problem is the pitch used in this test was coming apart on day one. Deliveries were disturbing the surface and very integrity of the pitch right from the first day - that's the problem. No objections to a bit of swing/seam/spin from the start, that's fine, but no test match pitch should be crumbling and coming apart on the first day, as this one has. It is a substandard pitch.

The examples used aren't valid comparisons because the outcomes listed were (mostly) the result of very poor batting, not substandard pitches. Ireland's batting was rubbish, England's batting was atrocious for years, Broad bowled the spell of his life at Trent Bridge in 2015. And, as Soul alluded to earlier, there are some unavoidable environmental factors at play in England - the ECB can't do anything about dark, heavy clouds looming over proceedings.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:19 pm

king_carlos wrote:Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong...  Laugh

Annoyingly CricViz aren't able to use their ball tracking data in this series, so aren't able to gather their Expected Wickets stats (xW) like they where in Sri Lanka.

For example, the balls Bess bowled in SL were expected to give him seven wickets at 35.9, taking into account length, drift, turn etc - but he ended up with 12 at 21.25. It would be interesting to see how Moeen would compare. Conclusions of one innings are never cast iron, but would have been interesting to compare.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:32 pm

The ECB can't do anything about overcast conditions but we make damn sure they suit the England side as much as possible by using a Dukes ball which goes round corners in those conditions which we know we will get some point every summer.

They are valid examples in that Ashwin bowled very well and England batted poorly. So ignoring examples of English conditions being incredibly difficult due to good bowling or poor batting is double standards, no?

Burns missed a straight ball. Sibley was caught off the back of his bat, which I'm fairly certain isn't the side you're meant to hit it with. Lawrence played way in front of his pad, was overbalancing, with the ball not under his eyeline. Even Root arguably shouldn't have been sweeping that early in his innings given the situation. Pope and Foakes then showed that it was playable if you got past the harder ball that really bites into the pitch. Which leaves Stokes the only one to get an absolute ripper.

I don't think it's a good Test match wicket at all. I do however think there are significant double standards from many pundits and fans when subcontinent pitches suit their strengths. When the Duke ball is unplayable in Anderson and Broad's hands on suited wickets we go absolutely nuts about their skill in those conditions. I feel too many pundits are focusing on the pitch rather than Rohit and Ashwins skill in these conditions.

I believe question should be raised about the advantage this pitch gave to the side that won the toss and the home side. But I believe if those questions are raised about subcontinent conditions then it's only reasonable to raise questions about the amount of movement the Duke ball gets in English conditions as winning the toss in the right conditions, with the Dukes ball can make the toss just as important as it was in this game.

In the past I've heard former players talk about a choice of ball as well as batting/bowling first at the toss in English conditions. Whoever wins the toss can choose either what make of ball is used for the match, or whether to bat/bowl. Then whoever loses the toss makes a choice about the other. Virat wins the toss and bats, Joe can choose the Duke. Joe wins the toss and bowls first, Virat can choose a kookaburra (or other make or a different Dukes produced ball designed to swing and seam less, etc).

The host nations preparation of pitches needs a lot of scrutiny but they also choose which ball to use, which in my opinion needs a lot more scrutiny. The Dukes ball in English conditions has frequently led to Test cricket that has no chance of going 5 days. That in my opinion is just as important a discussion to be had surrounding home advantage in Test cricket as discussions about poor pitches such as this Bunsen.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:35 pm

On the pitch, I disagree with Dobell on some counts. The comparison to Ireland is erroneous as any pitch Jack Leach can make 92 on is not a bad batting pitch! And in 2015 @ TB England made 390 declared! The differences between seaming pitches and spinning pitches is that seaming pitches can flatten out as the game goes on - they won't necessarily get worse. Uneven bounce is the killer in that regard.

But what I will about England is in the Bayliss years he definitely made a conscious effort to ask for more seam friendly pitches. If you compare that to the pitches from 2009 through to 2013, they were definitely more seam friendly on the whole. And of course they used Duke balls from the previous year (in 2019 maybe?) as they didn't think the seams were big enough on the new batch to give them enough of an advantage for their seamers!

I do think this pitch was pushing the limits though. The ball shouldn't be going through the top on Day 1. Below is an ICC definition for a pitch to get a rating of poor:

"The pitch offers excessive assistance to spin bowlers, especially early in the match"

And this pitch meets that.

Having said that, there are two other things I would say - one, I quite like a bit of variety in my Test pitches. As long as it isn't dangerous, having the odd raging turner along with a pitch that deteriorates slowly like in T1 is fine. It makes for interesting viewing.

And two, like I said before the game, India took a big risk. If they lose this toss and have to bat second and last it could be a totally different game. I mean, India bar Rohit made 168-9 in the first innings! If England had got him early, then it could have been carnage.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:44 pm

Pitch preparation and environmental factors are not the same thing. This pitch was prepared in such a way as to crumble as early as possible which is not on and should be investigated by the ICC. Utilising overhead conditions is simply not comparable.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:01 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Pitch preparation and environmental factors are not the same thing. This pitch was prepared in such a way as to crumble as early as possible which is not on and should be investigated by the ICC. Utilising overhead conditions is simply not comparable.
Using a ball that is absolutely guaranteed to take advantage of those conditions is comparable in my opinion and should be discussed more. The ECB can't control when the overhead conditions will be conducive to swing, I obviously agree with that. But we know that those overhead conditions on average will happen at points every summer and we choose a ball that is frequently unplayable in them.

The host nation prepares the pitch AND chooses the ball. If one gets scrutiny the other should as well in my opinion.

A poor pitch that will be investigated by the ICC if England lodge a formal complaint but I maintain that India had no more advantage through winning the toss and being more familiar with the conditions on this pitch than England do when winning the toss on a green top with the Dukes ball. Those advantages for England frequently lead to lopsided games at home just as this pitch has in Chennai.

Pitches rightly get a lot of scrutiny and this one should. But the ball used for Test cricket is chosen by the host nation as well and needs a lot more scrutiny in my opinion. There's been a lot of double standards about this from England fans and pundits for as long as I can remember, several articles and opinions I've seen during this match have been further examples.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:05 pm

Unplayable? That's a stretch to be honest, most english summers consist of consistent 250-300 scores which doesn't suggest unplayable to me. You see double standards where there are none, the dukes ball becomes an easy out because England just so happen to have the foremost exponent of swing bowling. If you look at the Moeen ball to Kohli and think there's nothing wrong then fairplay.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:05 pm

JDizzle wrote:And two, like I said before the game, India took a big risk. If they lose this toss and have to bat second and last it could be a totally different game. I mean, India bar Rohit made 168-9 in the first innings! If England had got him early, then it could have been carnage.
Rohit's record outside India might be poor but in India he has played some remarkable innings with that being the latest one. It was one of the best knocks I've seen in a long time. A batsman looking like he was playing a different game to everyone else.

His flat, Ricky Ponting or IVA-esque pull shot for 6 in the third over of this innings was a remarkable shot. Not even a bad bumper from Stone but just absolutely nailed by a batsman full of confidence.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 14 Feb 2021, 10:10 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Unplayable? That's a stretch to be honest, most english summers consist of consistent 250-300 scores which doesn't suggest unplayable to me. You see double standards where there are none, the dukes ball becomes an easy out because England just so happen to have the foremost exponent of swing bowling. If you look at the Moeen ball to Kohli and think there's nothing wrong then fairplay.
On the first bit bolded - I didn't say the Dukes was always unplayable but I believe there are periods in every English summer when it makes batting just as hard as it was on this pitch.

On the second bit - India scored 329 in their first innings.

On the third bit - If India didn't have the foremost exponent of spin bowling England would likely have made more in their first innings on this pitch.

On the fourth bit - I've said repeatedly I think it's a poor pitch that warrants discussion.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 3:37 am

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Pitch has become even more  slow and difficult to score
Self pity takes a side down very fast and hope Eng does not fall in that hole.
Hope Rohit turns this into a hundred tommorow and Moeen continues to pick up wickets as a side show  for  the tipping competition

You just want to keep Moeen in for Rohit to slaughter... Smile

.

I am not the one keeping him in......English selectors dumped the "promising & successful" Bess for Moeen Very Happy
Because they realized under the circumstances Moeen is the best spinner and on top of that one who has 5  test hundred and 15 fifties with the bat.
I am simply saying " Look I told ya"

OK I know you like stirring ...but what have you told us ?  

We can of course disagree on the relative merits of the two spinners at this stage of their careers ; and it remains to be seen what the rest of the series brings. Opinions are free ; so all I can offer is a couple of facts.

Last week , Bess took 4/76 (all top order players) in India's first innings on a pitch that was still playing reasonably well.  England went on to win.  Got some useful runs too , as it happens.
This week , Moeen took 4/128 on an apparent minefield - and two of them were rabbits. England are going to be hammered.  Made six.

You may yet be proved correct . But not on that evidence...

Attempt to pass on opinion labelled as facts in bold fonts...but not successful
mine though has the  credibility of Eng selectors' backing Cool

Oh dear . Not really wanting to to prolong this wretched argument ; but please tell me which part of my "facts" are not , in fact, factual ? Figures are there in black and white. And if it is my classification of the differing quality of the pitches I believe those are based on general agreement on this board - not least your own views .

What England selectors think/thought has little relevance.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 3:59 am

JDizzle wrote:On the pitch, I disagree with Dobell on some counts. The comparison to Ireland is erroneous as any pitch Jack Leach can make 92 on is not a bad batting pitch! And in 2015 @ TB England made 390 declared! The differences between seaming pitches and spinning pitches is that seaming pitches can flatten out as the game goes on - they won't necessarily get worse. Uneven bounce is the killer in that regard.

But what I will about England is in the Bayliss years he definitely made a conscious effort to ask for more seam friendly pitches. If you compare that to the pitches from 2009 through to 2013, they were definitely more seam friendly on the whole. And of course they used Duke balls from the previous year (in 2019 maybe?) as they didn't think the seams were big enough on the new batch to give them enough of an advantage for their seamers!

I do think this pitch was pushing the limits though. The ball shouldn't be going through the top on Day 1. Below is an ICC definition for a pitch to get a rating of poor:

"The pitch offers excessive assistance to spin bowlers, especially early in the match"

And this pitch meets that.

Having said that, there are two other things I would say - one, I quite like a bit of variety in my Test pitches. As long as it isn't dangerous, having the odd raging turner along with a pitch that deteriorates slowly like in T1 is fine. It makes for interesting viewing.

And two, like I said before the game, India took a big risk. If they lose this toss and have to bat second and last it could be a totally different game. I mean, India bar Rohit made 168-9 in the first innings! If England had got him early, then it could have been carnage.

Agree with most of this - especially the bit in bold. And as I think I have said before , I have no problem with home teams seeking to produce pitches that play to their strengths. It is really only logical to allow home players to perform on pitches similar to those on which they have learnt their trade , surely ? The downside to that is of course that those same players often struggle to handle alien conditions abroad...

Something between the pitches rolled out for these first two games would arguably have been ideal for this ground - but perfection would in itself become boring after a while. Hopefully the next match will provide something different again and allow both sides to showcase their varying abilities for our entertainment.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:08 am

Ha ! Freakish start to day three...Pujara run out in bizarre fashion , dropped his bat after stepping forward and good work from Pope and Foakes has him nipped out before he can get his foot down...
Very unlucky ...some similarities with that Joe Root run out although with added misadventures Smile

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:09 am

Well said there alfie.

Have England snaffled a fortuitous one early? They have. Pujara very unfortunate to be run out from short leg. Smart work from Pope as usual but Pujara unlucky for his bat to get jammed.

Even as an optimistic England fan I can't see a way back in this Test. I do think getting India out for around 200 and a respectable batting show in the second dig would give the England players some more confidence going into an all important T3 though.

Rohit has faced 69 balls for his 26*. In the first innings he was most the way to a ton by now! Showing that when he's in touch he can play the situation as well as blazing innings.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:12 am

A good line from Mo in his first over there. I like when he bowls a bit wider outside off stump. His line in the first innings was OK but his length all over the shop rendering the line frequently irrelevant. Hopefully both spinners can settle into a decent spell here for their rhythm and confidence.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:13 am

That looks like more very good work from Foakes to get Rohit!

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:14 am

Excellent start for England to get both Pujara and Rohit out.

One more and they are at the aggressive Pant with fresh bowlers.

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:15 am

JDizzle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Moeen bowling 19 short of a length balls and 10 full tosses in the first innings is an illuminating stat as well. Watching live I felt he bowled fewer bad balls and good balls than Bess. Perhaps I was wrong...  Laugh

Annoyingly CricViz aren't able to use their ball tracking data in this series, so aren't able to gather their Expected Wickets stats (xW) like they where in Sri Lanka.

For example, the balls Bess bowled in SL were expected to give him seven wickets at 35.9, taking into account length, drift, turn etc - but he ended up with 12 at 21.25. It would be interesting to see how Moeen would compare. Conclusions of one innings are never cast iron, but would have been interesting to compare.

I suppose it might be interesting. But really , these Cricviz "projections" I take with a large helping of salt . Cricket isn't played on a computer...these "expected to give him" things strike me as akin to Moores speaking about "looking at the data " after England's ODI team got hammered in that World Cup contest...

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Post by alfie Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:25 am

All happening this morning , eh ? Excellent work from Foakes to nip the bails off and send Rohit back clap He is blindingly fast with those hands.
Must say I wasn't sure it would be given , despite Foakes' very confident appeal . After that "benefit of the doubt" call the other day , I wondered if this one would also be deemed too close to call. Might be a bit of " evening up" about the decision ?

Leach looking dangerous this morning. Batting not looking easy at all. Unfortunately England are just too far adrift to get back into this but at least something to watch ...

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:28 am

I think that one was clear cut.

The view from the leg side in the first innings 'stumping' was one of those where it was incredibly tight, but the stump cam I thought looked out. A picture from the off side not being available was, erm, odd.

A really good start for England though. Leach and Mo both bowling well thus far.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 15 Feb 2021, 4:31 am

Ben Foakes!

He missed a really tough one yesterday but overall he's been magnificent with the gloves.

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