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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

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Post by king_carlos Sat 27 Feb 2021, 2:35 pm

Sibley and Foakes have played those innings this series, hence I mentioned them. Picking performances over a period of time is all I can do for guys like Woakes and Curran who haven't featured in any of the Tests. Am I supposed to mention the really good net session Chris Woakes might have tweeted about on Tuesday as it's more recent?

I'm aware that several batsman couldn't have done much worse this series. I also think that those batsman have more chance of improving on their performances in T4 than Woakes, Curran or Moeen would have of improving the lineup by playing as Test batsman.

Hence the comparison with Sehwag. When he was recalled in 2011 he couldn't buy a run in those conditions, similar to several English batsman in this series but that wouldn't have made replacing him with a bowler on the basis that 'the batting can't get worse' a good idea then and it isn't one now.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 01 Mar 2021, 10:00 am

The pitch although under a green cover today by all accounts will an another turner...expect like T2
and the fear I have is during a day-time, red ball game, Anderson will be able to find reverse and can be deadly.
I hope Eng believes that they have a chance to win and square the series and play full strength......and not "rest" Anderson again

For India Rohit sharma is bound to fail...law of averages to catch up...so someone else needs to stand up
Umesh will replace Bumrah and he "the best" proponent of reverse swing on India pitches.
one of the few bowlers who in India record is better than overseas record
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Post by Jetty Mon 01 Mar 2021, 2:32 pm

It seems that our third bowler is Archer. Third bowler meaning an express bowler. We have 3 on tour, Archer, Wood and Stone. Archer isn't bowling fast in India. Probably because he was carrying an elbow injury. I noticed he was strapped up in the IPL. After a steroid injection and missing a Test he was still not fast. I see him more of a mixed bag when it comes to speeds in Tests. 85/92mph.

Who is truly fast is Wood. His spells are consistently over 90mph, sometimes getting up to 94/95mph. Good reverse swing bowler. I want to see him play in the next Test. I think his injuries are behind him with his newish longer run up.

Stone speeds about 88/92mph. He looked accurate considering how little he has bowled in his career.

Can't fanthom why Stokes is bowling so little and in the 80s. You would think every match he would be getting more overs and faster.

I would like the bowling to be done by Root Stokes Bess Wood Leach Anderson in the 4th Test.

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Post by alfie Mon 01 Mar 2021, 10:40 pm

Jetty wrote:It seems that our third bowler is Archer. Third bowler meaning an express bowler. We have 3 on tour, Archer, Wood and Stone. Archer isn't bowling fast in India. Probably because he was carrying an elbow injury. I noticed he was strapped up in the IPL. After a steroid injection and missing a Test he was still not fast. I see him more of a mixed bag when it comes to speeds in Tests. 85/92mph.

Who is truly fast is Wood. His spells are consistently over 90mph, sometimes getting up to 94/95mph. Good reverse swing bowler. I want to see him play in the next Test. I think his injuries are behind him with his newish longer run up.

Stone speeds about 88/92mph. He looked accurate considering how little he has bowled in his career.

Can't fanthom why Stokes is bowling so little and in the 80s. You would think every match he would be getting more overs and faster.

I would like the bowling to be done by Root Stokes Bess Wood Leach Anderson in the 4th Test.

So would I ! We can but hope...never know with the England think tank after seeing four seamers included last week Smile

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Post by KP_fan Tue 02 Mar 2021, 5:29 am

It might be Anderson's last test in India....if he gets to play T4
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Post by Gooseberry Tue 02 Mar 2021, 8:37 am

KP_fan wrote:It might be Anderson's last test in India....if he gets to play T4


Wouldnt put it past BCCI and ECB to put another money grab in next year if the game goes well! Otherwise its a pretty obvious statement, same fro Broad. It should be 3 + years before they come back again, Anderson is already on borrowed time and Broad would be older than he is for the next tour without the same track record of success in India. If Wood, Stokes and Leaxch play its actually quite possible it will be every bowlers last test in India.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 02 Mar 2021, 9:17 am

Stokes and Leach are under thirty, a seam bowling all rounder and spinner respectively so I'd hope they'd still be in contention in around 3 years time.

I really want to see Wood get a chance in the final Test. In terms of consistent pace he's our fastest bowler and a good exponent of reverse swing.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 02 Mar 2021, 11:36 am

Eng should play Wood, Stone, Anderson and Leach as the most potent 4 bowlers

Also in my view Bess.....else Root should be willing to bowl fairly early and a lot of overs. proactively
If they play Bess as the extra bowler....Pope is the easiest to dump..
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Post by king_carlos Tue 02 Mar 2021, 11:56 am

Playing 5 bowlers when batting has been the issue is lunacy.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 02 Mar 2021, 5:18 pm

Will likely be Bess and Leach, with one of Anderson/Broad (probably Anderson) and one of Wood/Stone making up the bowling quartet. Don't think they'll risk exaggerating Archer's injury. Would like to see Stone play again to see if he can back up a promising first display.

Feels like it's been a long winter, but after this test England will still be playing five T20s and three ODIs before ending the tour. Both of those limited-overs series could be seen as important preparation for future tournaments.

I predicted a 3-1 India win for the tests pre-series, and that seems to be the most likely outcome, unless England can muster a huge effort. Getting a 2-2 draw, to back up the 2-0 win in Sri Lanka, would be a brilliant result if England can manage it. Having said that, it's difficult to summon much enthusiasm as a cricket fan for the final test, with the previous  two tests beset by sub-standard pitches and biased umpiring.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 02 Mar 2021, 5:31 pm

Yeah its funny isnt it Duty, so much promise from the first test result and now it feels like a disaster tour. In reality they came to a side thats barely been troubled at home in recent years with a mish mash side rotated half way through and several layers coming in with no warm up. Whatever happens in the next test England havent done any worse than we should have reasonably assumed they would. If they can get something out of it that would be dandy.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 02 Mar 2021, 6:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:Will likely be Bess and Leach, with one of Anderson/Broad (probably Anderson) and one of Wood/Stone making up the bowling quartet. Don't think they'll risk exaggerating Archer's injury. Would like to see Stone play again to see if he can back up a promising first display.

Feels like it's been a long winter, but after this test England will still be playing five T20s and three ODIs before ending the tour. Both of those limited-overs series could be seen as important preparation for future tournaments.

I predicted a 3-1 India win for the tests pre-series, and that seems to be the most likely outcome, unless England can muster a huge effort. Getting a 2-2 draw, to back up the 2-0 win in Sri Lanka, would be a brilliant result if England can manage it. Having said that, it's difficult to summon much enthusiasm as a cricket fan for the final test, with the previous  two tests beset by sub-standard pitches and biased umpiring.

That in bold is how I suspected English team, and Eco-system also felt after T2....."Self-Pity"
and Predicted the slippery, downward and irreversible slide....which sadly has come to pass Sad
The self pity manifested no more than in first over of second Eng inning of T3, where Crawley turned into a frozen mass of jelly and fell first ball......and then Bairstow seemingly venting his anger on being cheated by trying to smash the ball into pulp.


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Post by Gooseberry Tue 02 Mar 2021, 7:13 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Will likely be Bess and Leach, with one of Anderson/Broad (probably Anderson) and one of Wood/Stone making up the bowling quartet. Don't think they'll risk exaggerating Archer's injury. Would like to see Stone play again to see if he can back up a promising first display.

Feels like it's been a long winter, but after this test England will still be playing five T20s and three ODIs before ending the tour. Both of those limited-overs series could be seen as important preparation for future tournaments.

I predicted a 3-1 India win for the tests pre-series, and that seems to be the most likely outcome, unless England can muster a huge effort. Getting a 2-2 draw, to back up the 2-0 win in Sri Lanka, would be a brilliant result if England can manage it. Having said that, it's difficult to summon much enthusiasm as a cricket fan for the final test, with the previous  two tests beset by sub-standard pitches and biased umpiring.

That in bold is how I suspected English team, and Eco-system also felt after T2....."Self-Pity"
and Predicted the slippery, downward and  irreversible slide....which sadly has come to pass Sad
The self pity manifested no more  than in first over of second Eng inning of T3, where Crawley turned into a frozen mass of jelly and fell first ball......and then Bairstow seemingly venting his anger on being cheated by trying to smash the ball into pulp.



Complaints aren't coming from the players, just Duty

I did notice that Ashwin had a bit of a twitter meltdown over perceived criticism of the pitch though

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Post by KP_fan Tue 02 Mar 2021, 7:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:

Complaints aren't coming from the players, just Duty

Every nation needs some / big chunk of patriotic, passionate, one eyed-fans OK
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Tue 02 Mar 2021, 8:32 pm

You cant criticise Indian cricket, it's always gonna bring out the worst.

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Post by JDizzle Tue 02 Mar 2021, 8:35 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Yeah its funny isnt it Duty, so much promise from the first test result and now it feels like a disaster tour. In reality they came to a side thats barely been troubled at home in recent years with a mish mash side rotated half way through and several layers coming in with no warm up. Whatever happens in the next test England havent done any worse than we should have reasonably assumed they would. If they can get something out of it that would be dandy.

It's bizarre - England can still draw the series, which would be an incredible result given India's dominance at home. But it almost feels like the end of the tour in 2016, where they are completely broken down. Although I feel that is more just me than the team!

If it is another raging turner, it still doesn't necessarily mean it is the worst thing. As we have seen from Rohit, it would only take one more Root masterclass to swing the Test when 150 is par. The big issue being that India have more players (Kohli, Pant, Rohit) who could play that knock than England, who basically would need it from Root.

Presuming a similar pitch to the last Test - Sibley, Crawley, Bairstow, Root, Stokes, Lawrence (I would take Pope out of the firing line, he is still first choice come summer), Foakes, Bess, Stone, Leach, Broad.

If you are going totally mental and think it is going to be another two day Test, don't play Broad and pick Pope in some proper Galaxy brain stuff!

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Post by Duty281 Tue 02 Mar 2021, 9:15 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:  

Complaints aren't coming from the players, just Duty

Every nation needs some / big chunk of patriotic, passionate, one eyed-fans OK

I mean, I did predict England losing five out of six tests this winter!

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Post by KP_fan Wed 03 Mar 2021, 6:14 am

JDizzle wrote:  

If it is another raging turner, it still doesn't necessarily mean it is the worst thing. As we have seen from Rohit, it would only take one more Root masterclass to swing the Test when 150 is par. The big issue being that India have more players (Kohli, Pant, Rohit) who could play that knock than England, who basically would need it from Root.

 

This is similar to the point I made in T3 about 122 being the limit of skill for Eng.

India has raised the difficulty level through pitch to such heights that Eng has only one and  a half batsmen capable  of scoring ( half is Stokes)
And Ind has about four and a half...even though the pitch reduces the differential between English spinner vs Indian.
So over two innings the 9 batsmen is always gonna win vs.3 regardless of the toss...because it spins from D1.

If I was Eng I would have Leach, Bess, Root + 1 express pacer as the only bowlers
and packs the side with all available batsmen
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 03 Mar 2021, 10:06 am

Today

KP_fan wrote:

If I was Eng I would have Leach, Bess, Root + 1 express pacer as the only bowlers

Yesterday

KP_fan wrote:Eng should play Wood, Stone, Anderson and Leach as the most potent 4 bowlers

Make your mind up, flower.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by dummy_half Wed 03 Mar 2021, 10:19 am

No doubt will go with Leach, Bess + Root as the spinners, one of the fast mediums (Jimmy / Broad) and one of the genuine quicks (I think Stone, as we want to keep Archer and Wood fit for the ODIs). Batting line-up questions are Burns or Bairstow and Pope or Lawrence.

Would be good to see a bit better performance from the batsmen if it is a spinning track - better use of the feet and at least fewer batsmen getting out to the non-turning ball.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 03 Mar 2021, 10:25 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Today

KP_fan wrote:

If I was Eng I would have Leach, Bess, Root + 1 express pacer as the only bowlers

Yesterday

KP_fan wrote:Eng should play Wood, Stone, Anderson and Leach as the most potent 4 bowlers

Make your mind up, flower.

If you chop and change every day you can always say you got it right which KP has done with every test so far.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 03 Mar 2021, 10:49 am

JDizzle wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Yeah its funny isnt it Duty, so much promise from the first test result and now it feels like a disaster tour. In reality they came to a side thats barely been troubled at home in recent years with a mish mash side rotated half way through and several layers coming in with no warm up. Whatever happens in the next test England havent done any worse than we should have reasonably assumed they would. If they can get something out of it that would be dandy.

It's bizarre - England can still draw the series, which would be an incredible result given India's dominance at home. But it almost feels like the end of the tour in 2016, where they are completely broken down. Although I feel that is more just me than the team!

Was happy to read both Crawley and Root's comments this week, they certainly see this final game as an opportunity to make a good winter into a great winter, which is of course what it is! I think the whirlwind that has been the last two tests has made it feel like a disaster as an observer, but even if they do lose this final test, it has still been a successful winter.

Although I definitely don't expect them to win, it very much isn't out of the realms of possibility if they win the toss, and actually bat well first innings this time. Lets hope for something a bit more competitive this time Smile

(I'd go with Bess, Leach, Anderson, Archer as the bowling lineup personally)
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Post by Duty281 Wed 03 Mar 2021, 11:10 am

And don't forget Australia will be willing England on, as a win for the English puts the Australians in the WTC final against neighbours New Zealand.

Hearing that England might be putting Pope up at 3 and Bairstow at 6. But there's also a 'sickness' bug going around the England camp (not Covid, as far as I know), so there could be wholesale changes.

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Post by Pal Joey Wed 03 Mar 2021, 11:25 am

Duty281 wrote:And don't forget Australia will be willing England on, as a win for the English puts the Australians in the WTC final against neighbours New Zealand.

Hearing that England might be putting Pope up at 3 and Bairstow at 6. But there's also a 'sickness' bug going around the England camp (not Covid, as far as I know), so there could be wholesale changes.

I suppose so, Duty, but if we're being totally honest, the most deserving WTC Final would most probably be between India A v India B. Wink

Pretty sure that Lord's would be packed too - if Covid restrictions are lifted by then.
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Post by KP_fan Wed 03 Mar 2021, 11:37 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Today

KP_fan wrote:

If I was Eng I would have Leach, Bess, Root + 1 express pacer as the only bowlers

Yesterday

KP_fan wrote:Eng should play Wood, Stone, Anderson and Leach as the most potent 4 bowlers

Make your mind up, flower.

my latest version prevails
As I look at the odds & challenges that Eng face ...and it dawns upon me the enormity of the difficulty level that India has created for  Eng....I issue opinion_updates


Last edited by KP_fan on Wed 03 Mar 2021, 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by king_carlos Wed 03 Mar 2021, 11:39 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Today

KP_fan wrote:

If I was Eng I would have Leach, Bess, Root + 1 express pacer as the only bowlers

Yesterday

KP_fan wrote:Eng should play Wood, Stone, Anderson and Leach as the most potent 4 bowlers

Make your mind up, flower.

If you chop and change every day you can always say you got it right which KP has done with every test so far.
To paraphrase guildfordbat, "cricket must be very boring for KP_fan given he already knows exactly what's going to happen".

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 03 Mar 2021, 12:08 pm

I see Will MacPherson reporting that Dom Bess is coming in for Stuart Broad, and Archer is likely to be rested...but the decision on whether it is Stone or Wood to come in for him yet to be decided
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Post by king_carlos Wed 03 Mar 2021, 12:47 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I see Will MacPherson reporting that Dom Bess is coming in for Stuart Broad, and Archer is likely to be rested...but the decision on whether it is Stone or Wood to come in for him yet to be decided
Sounds basically like the side most of us want picked then.

I'm glad that Bess is getting another shot. I just hope that his confidence or Root's confidence in him isn't shot.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 03 Mar 2021, 1:41 pm

Possible teams as per Cricinfo:

England (possible): 1 Zak Crawley, 2 Dom Sibley, 3 Jonny Bairstow, 4 Joe Root (capt), 5 Ben Stokes, 6 Ollie Pope, 7 Ben Foakes (wk), 8 Dom Bess, 9 Jofra Archer, 10 Jack Leach, 11 Stuart Broad / James Anderson

India (possible): 1 Rohit Sharma, 2 Shubman Gill, 3 Cheteshwar Pujara, 4 Virat Kohli (captain), 5 Ajinkya Rahane, 6 Rishab Pant (wk), 7 Ravichandran Ashwin, 8 Washington Sunar, 9 Axar Patel, 10 Ishant Sharma, 11 Umesh Yadav

No further word on England bumping Pope up to 3, or the possible illness that is going through England's camp. Would be surprised to see Archer play, Cricinfo don't seem too sure on that. Usual top six for India and Bumrah coming out is an enforced change.

Pitch expected to be the same type of surface as the last. If it's another sub-standard offering, I hope (but don't expect) the ICC take action. Temperatures expected to peak at 39 degrees (!) for this test.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 03 Mar 2021, 4:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:And don't forget Australia will be willing England on, as a win for the English puts the Australians in the WTC final against neighbours New Zealand.

Hearing that England might be putting Pope up at 3 and Bairstow at 6. But there's also a 'sickness' bug going around the England camp (not Covid, as far as I know), so there could be wholesale changes.

I think they'd rather face India in England. NZ get the benefit of a warm up series if nothing else, but as we know India are useless unless they are playing on doctored dustbowls

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Post by JDizzle Wed 03 Mar 2021, 8:58 pm

https://twitter.com/timwig/status/1367096670022959108?s=21

Interesting stat from Tim Wigmore at the Telegraph. Buttler has taken 50/54 catches behind the stumps since Foakes debut. The best % out there!

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Post by king_carlos Wed 03 Mar 2021, 9:32 pm

JDizzle wrote:https://twitter.com/timwig/status/1367096670022959108?s=21

Interesting stat from Tim Wigmore at the Telegraph. Buttler has taken 50/54 catches behind the stumps since Foakes debut. The best % out there!
Really interesting stats there.

It underlines just how good Watling is as well. A key cog in an impressive New Zealand Test side.

I've said many times that I'm an enormous Foakes fan but I do believe that Buttler has improved massively with the gloves at Test level. The glaring weakness in his red ball game is still making big scores though. 2 centuries in 50 Tests batting in the top 7 is poor and will need to improve for Jos to still be a Test player beyond this year I'd imagine.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 03 Mar 2021, 10:43 pm

Selective stats that ignore the eight missed stumpings.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 03 Mar 2021, 10:46 pm

Foakes 5/7 and Buttler 1/6, as per that article, on stumpings - just for Soul!

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Post by KP_fan Thu 04 Mar 2021, 3:39 am

KP_fan wrote:
If I was Eng I would have Leach, Bess, Root + 1 express pacer as the only bowlers
and packs the side with all available batsmen

Looks like that's what Eng has done Very Happy
and won the toss too
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Post by alfie Thu 04 Mar 2021, 3:49 am

Just posted on the wrong thread my attempt at humour re that England selection...

Packing the batting , indeed. But I imagine Lawrence is also there partly as an extra spin option. Obviously they feel if India don't want Bumrah there is unlikely to be much work for the pace men. Jimmy can have a nice rest after this one anyway if he has to bowl thirty overs...though only KP_fan would claim he has been included to meet the quota of "1 express pacer Smile

Root doing well with the toss. Question now is : can they make any use of it ?

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Post by KP_fan Thu 04 Mar 2021, 3:57 am

alfie wrote:Just posted on the wrong thread my attempt at humour re that England selection...

Packing the batting , indeed. But I imagine Lawrence is also there partly as an extra spin option.

Dan Lawrence comes in for his  bowling Very Happy
In hindsight nothing shocked and demoralized Eng more than the sign of Root's 5 for 8


Last edited by KP_fan on Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by KP_fan Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:03 am

looked closer than on review
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Post by alfie Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:06 am

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:Just posted on the wrong thread my attempt at humour re that England selection...

Packing the batting , indeed. But I imagine Lawrence is also there partly as an extra spin option.

Dan Lawrence comes in for his  bowling Very Happy
In hindsight nothing shocked and demoralized Eng more than the sign of Root's 5 for 8

I doubt he will bowl much ...but if this is like the last pitch they probably think he will be as useful as another pace bowler !

Think Root's 5/8 induced more laughter than demoralisation Smile

Nearly a super start for Ishant : looked closer than that - but drs proves the umpire correct and one Indian review gone early...

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Post by KP_fan Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:16 am

Pitch has a slight tinge of green ( by Indian standards)....and bounce...outfield slower than last game
Both Siraj and Ishant have gottten the ball to swing
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:20 am

Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

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