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The GOAT

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Post by Y I Man Wed 24 Feb 2021, 3:18 pm

Who is it?

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Post by 88Chris05 Sat 27 Feb 2021, 1:22 am

O'Sullivan. Hasn't quite matched Hendry's haul of seven world titles, but that's the only major thing he hasn't matched yet. I'll concede that, in isolation, the most world titles is THE single best accolade or record anyone can hold. But O'Sullivan has won enough, can boast absolutely extraordinary longevity, passes the eye test as the best player for most people and has an amazing record against his greatest rivals spanning three eras, more or less. Ahead against Hendry and Higgins, very dominant against Williams, Doherty, Stevens, Ebdon etc. Then against the next batch he's comfortably ahead of Selby (albeit he's lost some huge matches to him, too) and owns Murphy, Robertson and Ding as if they're his own personal property. Even against someone of the 'new' generation, such as Wilson, he consistently dominates the head-to-head and looks in a totally different class.

Marginally behind against Trump, mind you, and I think Trump's form at times in the last couple of years or so has rivalled, and on occasion perhaps even bettered, anything O'Sullivan has ever produced. Trump has the capability to put himself right up near the top of the list, but for now it's O'Sullivan for me.
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Post by Duty281 Sat 27 Feb 2021, 10:39 am

Yep, Ronnie as well for me. His longevity conquers all. This weekend Ronnie levelled up with Hendry for the record 'number of ranking finals' reached, though Ronnie already holds the record of 'most ranking titles' won in his own right.

If Ronnie wins one more world title in his career I think it ends most debate. Two or more world titles and there would be no argument left (for now, anyway).

Also agree about Trump, who I expect to be near the top, possibly top, of the GOAT list in 10-15 years time. He might just be the most talented snooker player I've ever seen - and his winning performance against Higgins in the 2019 world final was perhaps the best I've ever seen anyone play - but his consistency in the biggest events is a big mark against him at the moment, though in other ranking events he has been sweeping up titles in the past few years.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 27 Feb 2021, 10:51 am

I don't see it with Trump personally, think he's a potential 2/3 time world champion at best and for all his flashy play he still lacks tactical nous. The triple crown events are the only ones that really matter in the GOAT debate. If Hendry, Davis, Higgins and O'Sullivan had so many available in their pomps they'd be hoovering them up too.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sat 27 Feb 2021, 12:24 pm

I think Trump's nous and tactical play has been the most improved aspect of his game in the last couple of years, Soul, and the reason why he's elevated himself to being such a serial winner. Not many can outfox as well as outscore Higgins as comprehensively across four sessions as Trump did in that world final. Obviously can't expect that kind of performance to be the norm because it's almost impossible to see how anyone can improve on that, but I don't consider his tactical game to be too much of a drawback anymore.

Anyway, when you can pot, break build and conjure up the kind of creative shot making Trump can, you don't have to be the best tactical brain to rack up the tournament wins as he's shown, and as Hendry showed in his pomp.

Hendry was pressed on a comment he made a while back that Trump had arguably "taken the game to a new level", with some taking that as an implication that he considered Trump of the past couple of seasons to be a better player than O'Sullivan ever was. When expanding he stopped short of saying that outright (which I think was wise) but did say that, while he didn't think Trump's cue ball control was as good as O'Sullivan's, on the other hand O'Sullivan's long game and ability to pot his way out of trouble was anywhere near as good as Trump's. I think most would agree there. I also thought Higgins was on the money when he said that there's never been anyone quite like Trump in terms of cue power and being able to create angles which just don't seem to be there. Better cloths and balls these days, sure, but even so it's a freakish gift Trump has got when it comes to that side of the game.

I don't see him matching the likes of Hendry, Davis or O'Sullivan in terms of world or triple crown titles because he's left it a bit late to make a real assault on those kind of numbers, and because I don't see his cue action or the margins of his game being as easily repeatable as someone like O'Sullivan's once he gets up near forty, although with the ages players are peaking or having Indian summers these days you never know.

But he should really make hay now and look to bank plenty of big ones in the next few years because there's no doubt for me that, if he's in form, he's the guy everyone has to beat now. And if he keeps doing it in the way he has been, then much like they did with O'Sullivan for many years, I think people will be willing to place him above a couple of guys who might have more titles simply because of his style and virtuosity.

Should be aiming for three world titles absolute minimum, but I think he's capable of more.
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