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Cardiff Blues rebranding...

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Post by No9 Mon 01 Mar 2021, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just caught on the BBC Wales lunchtime news, that Cardiff Blues will rebrand from next season to be Cardiff Rugby.

Well, there's the region experiment coming to an end..

Wont be long before Dragons become Newport again. Scarlets and Ospreys likely to keep their brands as is.

Guess, those regions who didn't refer to their legacy clubs like Newport Gwent Dragons and Cardiff Blues now have a stronger identity than those who clung to the past.

Was always going to happen, I guess I'm just surprised it took so long.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:They have made no effort to try and work with Cardiff Blues for a long enough time (Other than take players from the Region to win the league)

Please look at the Cardiff Blues academy, and see where their players come from. There are not many coming from clubs in Cardiff. they are coming from the clubs in the valleys and in particular, Pontypridd, Merthyr and a lot from places like Church Village and Beddua. Yes you've got it all the valleys.

Brendan wrote:I don't understand why people are surprised that more people are going to focus on the biggest and closest population centres.

There are a million people living in the valleys, yet no representation. 350K in Cardiff, 100K in Newport, 250k Swansea, 25k LLanelli. Approx figures.






There are 16 million people living in Chongqing but they don't have a professional rugby team either, because there's no interest in one and nobody willing to pay for one. You know, just the same as in RCT where there are too few people willing to pay for professional rugby, as history proves.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Still the valleys have more than double those populations. Also, part of Gwent are in the valleys.

"The Valleys" is not an homogenous entity. It's also skint. And it has a history of failing professional rugby.

Hence it doesn't have a professional rugby team any longer.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Well Cardiff do not want anything to do with anybody except Cardiff. Should we all bow down ?

You support Dragons, because you are an ex Newport RFC supporter, am I correct ? Please be honest.

Cardiff have a nigh on 150 year history of welcoming supporters from anywhere and everywhere. You know, like for example Peter Thomas.

Where's he from again?

You know, just to underline the stupidity of your writing.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:25 pm

Brendan wrote:It is not Cardiff's fault that half of the Warriors was landed on them.  In Professional rugby the players come from all over and probably get more from the academy then they would their home club (If run properly).

Once Warriors moved home games to Brewery Field alot of fans from the other major area started saying that they wouldn't go to home games until they returned to Sardis Road.

Once Ponty RFC sold their share because of their financial difficulties they lost the ability to have a say (as per most private ventures).  They never had a say in Blues rugby much like the other clubs because they aren't part of the private owners.

By the same logic that the valleys don't have regional rugby then large parts of Ireland don't, such as Waterford City because no team plays there.

It was not 'landed on them'. They paid £312,500 for it.

Other than that, you're spot on.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
out of a squad of 30 players, 21 of them are from Merthyr and Pontypridd. Two of the prominent teams in the valleys. Simply put, Cardiff want to reap the valleys of their talent, but do not want to associate with them. To be fair, Cardiff have never wanted anything to do with us and have made it abundantly clear from the start.

You cannot ask fans to all of a sudden start supporting a team, that does not represent them in any way or form. Especially when they are already supporting a team that does.

Are you claiming the first team squad is only of 30 players?

Nobody has asked fans of other clubs to support Cardiff, by the way. Support is by choice.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:28 pm

The Oracle wrote:I've always maintained that we just have to let people support who they want to support and stop wasting our breath on this.  As LD says you can't and shouldn't try to manufacture a support base by drawing a line on a map and saying 'they are your team because you live within x'.  However, at the same time LD you cannot then expect a team to 'represent' a certain group of people.  Manchester United don't represent Manchester.  

 Similarly, if someone wants to support semi-pro Pontypridd or non-pro Abertillery then good on them.  Let them.  But don't blame the pro sides for not embracing them.  And don't blame the fan for choosing to spend his/her money where they want to.  Fans are fans and can support their team whatever league they're in.  To grow support though we need to be picking up the casual fan, the new fans, the kids...... and we can do that from wherever in Wales we want to.  It's easier on your doorstep as they're more likely to be able to attend home games the closer they are but if they come from North Wales, or Bristol, or Llanelli then great.

100% spot on.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:It's also nonsense, in my opinion, to hear that 'millions of people in Wales are not represented'.

It's easy for you to say that when you have not really had to change, or to be told how to change.

You see, the facts are, that there is still only 4 pro clubs. Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport. Thats fine, but lets just call it like that. I have never supported any of those clubs, well not like I have supported Pontypridd and Merthyr.

I did at one time spend a lot of time supporting all the regions, yes even Dragons, I used to like to cherry pick my games. But as time went on, the Pro14 just seemed more and more empty, and the fans clearly did not want anything to do with any other clubs, and that was across the 4 regions, less so at others than some.

So on one hand you claim "people aren't represented" and then you immediately underline how support is a choice.

Fair play, that's an epic turnaround in the space of a sentence.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:You keep comparing this to the Irish system, you cannot.

Munster
Leinster
Connacht
Ulster

they are all areas. They represent everything in that area. Cardiff represent Cardiff, and that is that.

No, it doesn't. Cardiff represents anybody and anything that wants to be associated with it.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:30 pm

The Oracle wrote:

Exactly this LD.  I completely agree.  We haven't got this province divide so we should stop pretending to emulate it.  And therefore, we should stop saying that all of the areas of Wales and all fans within it should be represented and attached to a team.  Support Ponty and Merthyr if that's what you want to do.  You should be applauded for supporting rugby.  But don't blame the Blues or whoever because you don't feel 'represented' because you don't have to be represented!

My only caveat to your point above is to say that the Blues do represent more than just Cardiff from a point of view of development pathways, schools, etc.  Same as the Dragons look after the development pathway loosely based around the whole of the former Gwent area and not just Newport County Borough.

100% spot on.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:31 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:You keep comparing this to the Irish system, you cannot.

Munster
Leinster
Connacht
Ulster

they are all areas. They represent everything in that area. Cardiff represent Cardiff, and that is that.

No, it doesn't. Cardiff represents anybody and anything that wants to be associated with it.

except Cardiff do not want to be part of anything, that is why they payed for the privalage from the outset.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

except Cardiff do not want to be part of anything, that is why they payed for the privalage from the outset.

They paid for the privilege because no other club in Wales could even begin negotiations on an equal venture.

If you want to be part of Cardiff rugby, nobody asks you for your post code first. You're trying to paint Cardiff rugby as exclusive when it couldn't be further from the truth.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:36 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

except Cardiff do not want to be part of anything, that is why they payed for the privalage from the outset.

They paid for the privilege because no other club in Wales could even begin negotiations on an equal venture.

If you want to be part of Cardiff rugby, nobody asks you for your post code first. You're trying to paint Cardiff rugby as exclusive when it couldn't be further from the truth.

What are they called again ?

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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

I know, but there seems to be more players from outside Cardiff playing for Cardiff. How do you reckon Cardiff would fair, if they were not allowed to used the valley players as their pathway ?

on your last point, I know for a fact, that a lot of players from Merthyr and Ponty are at Cardiff, in fact I was talking to Dale Mackintosh in our club a little bit before the first lockdown, as Merthyr were using it whilst the rugby club was being built, and he was telling me that without clubs like Merthyr, Cardiff Blues would struggle.

The back page of the Echo in 1957 notes how 'Rhondda Boys' helped Cardiff beat Australia

You're making it out as though this is something new, as though Cliff Morgan and Bleddyn Williams through to Neil Jenkins never happened.

You're also ignoring that players enter the regional pathway via the Schools, not clubs, so you're completely manufacturing nonsense about "Pontypridd and Merthyr". Does Merthyr even have an age grade set up?????
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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

except Cardiff do not want to be part of anything, that is why they payed for the privalage from the outset.

They paid for the privilege because no other club in Wales could even begin negotiations on an equal venture.

If you want to be part of Cardiff rugby, nobody asks you for your post code first. You're trying to paint Cardiff rugby as exclusive when it couldn't be further from the truth.

What are they called again ?

Cardiff.

Just as you were told that Manchester United aren't exclusive as they are called, erm, Manchester United. Remember?
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

I know, but there seems to be more players from outside Cardiff playing for Cardiff. How do you reckon Cardiff would fair, if they were not allowed to used the valley players as their pathway ?

on your last point, I know for a fact, that a lot of players from Merthyr and Ponty are at Cardiff, in fact I was talking to Dale Mackintosh in our club a little bit before the first lockdown, as Merthyr were using it whilst the rugby club was being built, and he was telling me that without clubs like Merthyr, Cardiff Blues would struggle.

The back page of the Echo in 1957 notes how 'Rhondda Boys' helped Cardiff beat Australia

You're making it out as though this is something new, as though Cliff Morgan and Bleddyn Williams through to Neil Jenkins never happened.

You're also ignoring that players enter the regional pathway via the Schools, not clubs, so you're completely manufacturing nonsense about "Pontypridd and Merthyr". Does Merthyr even have an age grade set up?????

Yes.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:39 pm

OK, I'm done here.

So long chaps, hes all yours.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:40 pm

The Oracle wrote:The WRU sets the 'regional' limits.  They tell the Blues that the clubs and schools within a certain geographical area are there's to work with.  Kids who are good at rugby in that geographical area then have a development pathway within that made up regional area and, if they're deemed good enough, they will be picked up by the Blues academy through their scouting and trial systems, school competitions, etc.  The fact that so many valleys players are in the Blues squad means the system is working!  One small point though - I'd be interested to know who you're including in the Blues squad as 'Valleys' as Ospreys and Dragons also have a remit for valleys areas too and it's possible that some of the Blues valleys players are actually from other region's valley areas.

That's not quite true. The pathway is set in geographic stone via agreement through the PRA.

The main route to the Academy is via the Dewar Shield

And you're right that he's misusing the word "valleys" when he actually means RCT
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Post by GlassDu Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
GlassDu wrote:I do actually feel bad for Ponty fans that feel displaced since the demise of the Warriors (and ideally would love to see a professional team there if we had the money), but hard to see how Cardiff as a pro team aligning with what their customers (who turn up and pay) and sponsors is such a slight to people who say they have no interest? It would be financial madness to keep trying to win fans that apparently will never support us?

Welcome aboard GlassDu. Is your named derived from the Cardiff colours ? there was a member who used to frequent these boards with a similar name to you.

Anyway, merging Pontypridd and Cardiff was doomed from the start. They both historically do not get on, added to the fact that Cardiff payed to be stand alone from the outset.

If the dream were to happen, then you would really need to merge Pontypridd with the surrounding valleys teams like Merthyr, Pontypridd, Aberdare ect....

There must be at least 30 clubs between those three towns alone, not mention numerous others from the wider catchment area.

But that will never happen. We have what we have and we need to get on with it.

Thanks for the welcome LordDowlais! No I'm not that one, I'm new to messaging on the forum, but have read it now and again for ages.

I'm not sure it was a merge? Cardiff paid to stand alone and then paid for (and have since invested in) the professional player pathway? but there is no responsibility as such to 'represent' Ponty, Merthyr etc. It comes back to in an ideal world we'd have enough players of quality/money to do that, but it's not the case as you say.

It's a funny one the dislike you mention. As a Cardiff fan I've always seen Cardiff's biggest rivalry or dislike being Newport and not Ponty. I get that there was competition for a while between the clubs in the 90s, but It's always been beating Newport and now the Dragons that mattered.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

There is nowhere else for them to go. Imagine all these players playing for a region, from where they were produced. People from the same area could then support them. But unfortunately that will never happen. So now, if we want to see our local boys, we need to support a team that has not only has no affiliation with us, but does not want us either.

What I am saying is, Cardiff have now come out and said we are Cardiff, and that is it, nothing else, just Cardiff, but we will still use the pathway system as we still need your people to play for us.

Ah. OK. Thanks, but no thanks.

It's a complete lie to claim Cardiff rugby doesn't want fans from RCT. A downright and total lie from a bare faced liar.

The life President of the Club is from RCT. Some of its greatest ever players have been from RCT. Nobody checks a driving licence for a post code before selling a ticket or a membership.
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Post by RiscaGame Tue 09 Mar 2021, 4:52 pm

The amount of posts deleted off this thread, for poor insinuations, insults and bringing personal details onto this forum is unacceptable.

I haven't got the time to amend or delete posts constantly and there have been enough warnings on different posts, asking posters to change their styles.

As such, this thread will remain locked and people can reflect on their contributions.

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