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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by Pal Joey Thu 04 Mar 2021, 4:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

Is that what it was? Couldn't fool me... Smile

p.s. it was a 'nowhere in particular' accent.
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 9:35 am

Genuine pace bowlers tend to get less movement through the air hence why Anderson hasn't pushed his speeds for over a decade now, he was until recently capable of bowling faster but chose not to. The whole package is what matters and pace is only one part of that.

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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 9:39 am

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
As a general rule I think pure pace often tends to be overrated. The top class express bowlers are a terrific weapon , of course. But a lot of the most successful bowlers - in all formats - operate at a bit less than that.
In this series of white ball matches , Bhuvi has been the standout across both teams...

I think when making that underlined statement, people assume that its pace without control and movement.
Pace with control and movement is better than medium pace with control.
and Fast medium that Bhuvi and Shardul and Anderson are is better than medium pace.

Medium Pace is lowest in potency

I don't disagree with any of that , KP_fan ! But I think you are exaggerating slightly calling Curran and Topley just "medium pace". Topley is certainly capable of bowling a bit quicker than that ; and while Curran rarely gets far into the 130s he has shown in the past he can get pretty good results with his own set of tricks.

How they will both fare in the later overs is another matter. Can't get hit for much more than Wood the other day though !

Anyway it's a matter of spin for now. And Rashid nearly had one then ! Kohli edges but it has gone straight through Jos Buttler ...may be costly.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 9:59 am

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
As a general rule I think pure pace often tends to be overrated. The top class express bowlers are a terrific weapon , of course. But a lot of the most successful bowlers - in all formats - operate at a bit less than that.
In this series of white ball matches , Bhuvi has been the standout across both teams...

I think when making that underlined statement, people assume that its pace without control and movement.
Pace with control and movement is better than medium pace with control.
and Fast medium that Bhuvi and Shardul and Anderson are is better than medium pace.

Medium Pace is lowest in potency

 But I think you are exaggerating slightly calling Curran and Topley just "medium pace". .

Topley and Curran were medium pace in their opening spells 123 to 131kph.....and that's all that I called medium pace
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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 10:04 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Genuine pace bowlers tend to get less movement through the air hence why Anderson hasn't pushed his speeds for over a decade now, he was until recently capable of bowling faster but chose not to. The whole package is what matters and pace is only one part of that.

Conventional swing is best achieved at medium pace...True...and I think about 120-125 is optimal speed.

Reverse is achieved at upwards of 135 kph...and it harder to handle as it's late swing unlike the conventional swing achieved that starts fairly early and a gentler speeds.

Seam movement is different from Swing and is more pitch dependent...and occurs at any speed....bowlers get good seam movement at even 145kph.

So what I would want is SPEED coupled with seam movement if the pitch is helpful or REVERSE...if the pitch ain't helpful.
I really do not care for conventional swing at medium pace
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 10:19 am

The best exponent of reverse swing i've seen was Simon Jones and he wasn't express pace by any means. It actually relies more heavily on seam presentation than conventional swing so a more upright action combined with height is more important than pace.

Seam movement and express pace you are right can be a very good combination.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 26 Mar 2021, 11:32 am

Don't think we'll need to worry about confusing our Curran's on here for much longer...seeing the dying embers of Tom's international exploits for a while now
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 26 Mar 2021, 11:33 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Don't think we'll need to worry about confusing our Curran's on here for much longer...seeing the dying embers of Tom's international exploits for a while now

Wicket next ball...of course!
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 11:34 am

It's hardly unexpected; Wood, Woakes and Archer is a lot of control to be losing and the replacements just aren't up to it, blunts Rashid a bit too when the batsman know there is no threat from the other end. With the right bowling unit I think Sam Curran could be a useful option but brother Tom offers very little.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 26 Mar 2021, 11:49 am

A very dull ODI. A complete imbalance between bat and ball doesn't make for a good contest. Contrary to Atherton's frequent shouts of 'great shot', a 'great shot' is not an edge that flies away for six. It's just something that underlines the imbalance of the game, with overly powerful bats and short boundaries.

India favourites, but far from certainties. Maybe 65-35, 70-30, in their favour from this position. Do agree with Olly above that we're likely seeing the end of T Curran at international level as his form has been fading for the past 12-18 months. Topley gave a good account of himself today.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 11:51 am

Its been an Indian fan's fantasy to see Hardik and Rishab in full flow together one day

Today was that day when both got meaningful scores at 200+ SR each.
Medium Pace Massacred 126 in last 10

On extended viewing & stretching my memory back in time......Topley is very reminiscent of Bruce Ried...tall left arm medium pace with a very high release point poses difficulties.....though Ried used the angle across right handers better.

Topley worth keeping in the side as one of 6 bowlers...better suited or middle overs than opening the bowling & offers more value as bowler than both Currans
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 11:55 am

5, 6 & 7 scored 124 off of just 65 balls, that's more 11 an over. Realistically with Wood bowling in the middle with Woakes and Archer at the death you'd be expecting 50/60 less runs scored not to mention the effects of losing regular wickets.

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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 12:20 pm

Didn't watch the slaughter in the second half of that innings...but not surprised to see the total. Needed more than two wickets early on to keep them down on this pitch.
Bit surprised that Moeen ended up the most economical . Did he bowl very well or were they just milking him ?
Death bowling about as successful as on Tuesday...

Good luck chasing 337 .

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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 12:34 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:It's hardly unexpected; Wood, Woakes and Archer is a lot of control to be losing and the replacements just aren't up to it, blunts Rashid a bit too when the batsman know there is no threat from the other end. With the right bowling unit I think Sam Curran could be a useful option but brother Tom offers very little.

Obviously they don't have their first choice attack. (Though neither have India and they seem to be managing)

Rather suggests that if England have an injury or two they're stuffed...

They need to give these back up bowlers game time. I am not surprised Tom Curran is struggling here : he's not had a lot of match play lately and these conditions really don't suit him at all. I think he could still do a job at home ; but for the World Cups in India I agree they probably need to look elsewhere.

In truth these white ball games generally aren't doing a lot for my confidence in England's bowling for next year here. No appearance from Woakes , of course : but is his record in these parts anything special ? I think they'll be relying on making a lot of runs if they're to succeed in the big events in India...

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 12:43 pm

Woakes has played 23 ODI matches in Asia; 36 wickets at 29.13 with an economy of 5.77, not actually that much different to his numbers at home.

In India specifically his average is 35 with an economy of 6.17, in comparison to those currently in the team, a big improvement.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 12:47 pm

Roy is a thorn in the flesh.....always...but fortunately he gets out in 40s
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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 12:53 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Woakes has played 23 ODI matches in Asia; 36 wickets at 29.13 with an economy of 5.77, not actually that much different to his numbers at home.

In India specifically his average is 35 with an economy of 6.17, in comparison to those currently in the team, a big improvement.

Thanks , Soul. That's not too bad ; encouraging. Because on the evidence of the last couple of weeks they're certainly going to need him in good form to add something to the attack next year. I suppose he needed to rest this month after all that drink carrying in the Test Series Smile but I'd have liked to see him in a game or two...
(No : to be serious , I'm fine with him getting some time off. They do need to try out the alternates)

What did you think of Topley today ?

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 12:57 pm

I thought Topley bowled quite well, ODI bowling is much more about the unit than individuals so I think he bowled better than his figures suggest. KPF actually touched upon it but height is a great equaliser with the white ball, enables you to vary length better which he did whereas conversely I always think Tom Curran bowls like a shorter guy, his release points could and probably should be higher.

If you have genuine pace and a slingier action like Malinga you can get away with a lower release point.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:20 pm

ball is gripping a bit today & Kuldeep too getting his landings better ( so far)
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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:22 pm

Boundary riders should stand right on the boundary...coming in is easier than backing off
Rahul would have had a chance had he been right on the boundary instead of 2meteres inside
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Post by Duty281 Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:31 pm

Another excellent position set up by Roy and Bairstow - but will the middle-order be able to convert it to a win?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:32 pm

Duty281 wrote:Roy and Bairstow - the most destructive ODI opening partnership in cricket history.

England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 17 1616588613853

Between them, Roy and Bairstow have combined for 12 opening stands worth a century or more, which is the 5th highest in the history of ODI cricket, and has been made from a total of 42 matches. The highest in ODI history is Ganguly and Tendulkar who made 21 opening stands worth a century or more in 136 matches. The next highest, below Roy and Bairstow, from an England perspective is Knight and Trescothick (3), who are tied with Hales and Roy (also 3).

We must temper comparisons to the past, somewhat, by recognising that the game currently is more skewed towards batsmen than in the past but, even so, there is no doubt that Roy and Bairstow are the best opening pair in ODI cricket today, and that they will stand out for decades to come in ODI cricket history.

(Thanks to the Telegraph and Cricviz for the statistics)

Now 13 in 43 matches - relentless!
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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:38 pm

Roy crosses 40s but by not too much


Last edited by KP_fan on Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:39 pm

Well that was all a bit needless
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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:40 pm

that was a horrible review.....outside the off not material...the ball never looked like coming in enuf to be anywhere close to stumps
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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 1:40 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Well that was all a bit needless

It was badly needed Very Happy
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Post by Duty281 Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:11 pm

England well ahead at the moment, and it's only another dramatic collapse that can stop England winning from here. Stokes looked very out of touch when he first came in, now he has found some timing to build a decent score.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:20 pm

That was out to me, ridiculous running by Stokes
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Post by Duty281 Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:21 pm

I thought Stokes was out there, very lazy, but I'm not totally sure India even appealed for it.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:26 pm

Yep that looked very out. Stumping calls have had benefit of the doubt given to the batsman throughout the tour but there wasn't doubt in that IMO.

I've seen very little of these first two ODIs live up until now. Bairstow batting very well again but England could do with him going on to take the chase home.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:33 pm

That was just as out as the Rohit stumpings.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:37 pm


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Post by king_carlos Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:46 pm

Ton up for Bairstow. He really has developed into a fantastic white ball batsman. Since moving up to open in ODIs he's been phenomenal. Averaging well over fifty, 11 centuries and a strike rate of around 110.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 26 Mar 2021, 2:50 pm

I drastically overrated India's chances of defending this, based mostly off the unusual collapse that happened in the first game. Another ton for Bairstow.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:04 pm

I don't think either team is learning much from these matches due to the absentees; in Bumrah, Jadeja, Woakes and Archer we're talking about premier white ball players.

This is a dog of a pitch for the bowlers though, regardless of the huge bit of luck Stokes' hitting has been another level.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:12 pm

Duty281 wrote:I drastically overrated India's chances of defending this, based mostly off the unusual collapse that happened in the first game. Another ton for Bairstow.

These two pitches are the type England have been winning 80-90% of their games on for the last half decade....think the 1st ODI was one of those rare times they misfire. You need 400+ against this England lineup on these pitches when they play well
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Post by king_carlos Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:13 pm

I've said it a few times but Woakes is absolutely integral to the ODI side. His powerplay bowling over the last few years has been standout compared to almost all other opening bowlers. Controls the RR and takes wickets. Add his more than useful lower order batting and he's as vital as almost any in ODIs.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:14 pm

Eng batting like angry wounded Tigers England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 17 1f628
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:16 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I drastically overrated India's chances of defending this, based mostly off the unusual collapse that happened in the first game. Another ton for Bairstow.

These two pitches are the type England have been winning 80-90% of their games on for the last half decade....think the 1st ODI was one of those rare times they misfire. You need 400+ against this England lineup on these pitches when they play well

The only real difference between the matches has been how Stokes started his innings; in the first match his timing was rotten and he wasn't getting Jonny on strike but this time they rotated slightly better.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:16 pm

Owwww. Stokes gone for 99. Bhuvi of course the one to make the breakthrough.

A fabulous innings from Stokes though. England had scored 91 runs from 5 overs prior to that wicket!

Hopefully Malan and Bairstow can finish this themselves but if another wicket falls I'd hope that Livingstone comes in ahead of Buttler to give him some time in the middle.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:17 pm

taken to the cleaners
Mauled
Not nice viewing
much as its a meaningless masal ODI.....hard to see being crushed under a train
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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:20 pm

Well I think this is hex-proof now Smile

Though is it a coincidence that just as I type a few words Stokes falls for 99 ? That was a ridiculous piece of hitting - poor Kuldeep may take a while to recover from that mauling !

Stokes certainly had his share of luck (third umpire call on run out among others ) but that innings has ended up almost overshadowing another truly excellent innings from Jonny Bairstow...

Blimey : India have Bairstow now as well...still want fifty runs - at about three per over . If they mess this up I will give up drinking...

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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:27 pm

Oh good lord...Buttler cleaned up for a duck and suddenly they are four down !

The two "substitutes " now charged with finishing the job ...

Ten minutes ago I didn't think Livingstone was going to get in to bat at all. Good experience for him and Malan , I guess. But it's a crazy game where you can lose 3 for 2 after 285/1...

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Post by JDizzle Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:31 pm

Buttler’s ODI scores since the WC Final are 1, 3, 8, 2, 0. Buttler out. Very Happy

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:36 pm

JDizzle wrote:Buttler’s ODI scores since the WC Final are 1, 3, 8, 2, 0. Buttler out. Very Happy

It's not easy being a three format player, unless you're a freak like Kohli it's hard for one aspect not to impact on another.

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Post by JDizzle Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:43 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Buttler’s ODI scores since the WC Final are 1, 3, 8, 2, 0. Buttler out. Very Happy

It's not easy being a three format player, unless you're a freak like Kohli it's hard for one aspect not to impact on another.

It’s also only 5 innings across 8 months or so? The fact he is smashing it in T20s convinces me it is just a quirk of sample size rather than anything else.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:46 pm

A lovely little cameo from Livingstone so far just to settle things down again. He strikes the ball very cleanly.

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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:56 pm

Livingstone doing himself no harm here with a nice little knock guiding them home after the little wobble...

Pretty good chase down of a stiff target. They've done what they really should have done the other day after another terrific opening partnership. I know they like to bang on about "this is the way we play" : but I think they did adapt a bit in this innings .For all the spectacular sixes there seemed to be better selection of when to push and when to swing this time...they'll be pleased with this thumbsup

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:56 pm

king_carlos wrote:A lovely little cameo from Livingstone so far just to settle things down again. He strikes the ball very cleanly.

Clever partnership from the pair of them; ticking the scoreboard over with good running and ensured they got the big hitter in Livingstone on strike from the start.

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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 17 Empty Re: England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

Post by JDizzle Fri 26 Mar 2021, 3:58 pm

Do wonder if Livingstone did think about auditioning for the T20 side out there. Perfect chance too. And that is the WC around the corner.

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Post by alfie Fri 26 Mar 2021, 4:09 pm

The good part of getting injuries...forces the (sometimes too conservative ?) management to try out the fringe players...

I guess they will be prioritising winning the decider now : but part of me would like to see Parkinson given a game on Sunday.

As for India : they've successfully tried out several new players in these white ball games . Might have a tricky decision re Krunal now though. Kind of proved his worth with the bat the other day...but can they afford to keep him in as a bowler ?

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