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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by Pal Joey Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

Is that what it was? Couldn't fool me... Smile

p.s. it was a 'nowhere in particular' accent.
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:16 pm

alfie wrote:The good part of getting injuries...forces the (sometimes too conservative ?) management to try out the fringe players...

I guess they will be prioritising winning the decider now : but part of me would like to see Parkinson given a game on Sunday.

As for India : they've successfully tried out several new players in these white ball games . Might have a tricky decision re Krunal now though. Kind of proved his worth with the bat the other day...but can they afford to keep him in as a bowler ?

I'm not too up on Indian selection policy but would assume that they'll stick with Krunal for the final match but will make way when Jadeja is fit again who will slot in at seven.

India do need to start going earlier, it's harsh to criticise the guys who scored the bulk of the runs but Kohli and Rahul did not score at near the required rate. On a flat pitch 108 from 114 isn't going to win you matches any more. By the time Pant came in they were being the eight ball by a long way and the Pandya innings looks good but you've ultimately only gained what 15 runs?

Beyond Roy the England template is build, build, build then bang, bang, bang as highlighted by the Stokes innings.

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Post by KP_fan Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:36 pm

I enjoy watching good cricket even in India's defeat
But it was a brutal assault by Stokes and Bairstow
restoring faith of cricketing community in their world champion status.

For Ind it was ( or should have been) a humbling experience.
There is an arrogant, complacent prick in Kohli that comes out every now and then and has been on display now and then in this series.

Hope him and team management have learnt that

-Krunal is NOT a full time spinner...but can only fill in 4 to 5 overs on most days....and at best he can be joint 5th bowler with Hardik bowling another 4 to 6 overs

-That Kuldeep ain't shaking or even bothering English batters
that in general on these  limited over pitches Eng is not being troubled by spinners.

Ind need to play an additional seamer (Natrajan or Siraj) next game and have Pandya brothers share the quota of 5th bowlers....and put up a respectable fight....win or defeat notwithstanding
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:16 pm

Ok what on earth are England doing with Archer...

https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2077843

So he played in India in both the tests and T20s with the ongoing elbow issue (which they've done another injection for)...but also with a hand injury, which was sustained in January but which now also requires surgery (bowling hand too). I get bowlers often play with slight niggles etc, but we're playing him with injuries that require surgery!
Manage him properly you bloody idiots
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:28 pm

alfie wrote:The good part of getting injuries...forces the (sometimes too conservative ?) management to try out the fringe players...

I guess they will be prioritising winning the decider now : but part of me would like to see Parkinson given a game on Sunday.

As for India : they've successfully tried out several new players in these white ball games . Might have a tricky decision re Krunal now though. Kind of proved his worth with the bat the other day...but can they afford to keep him in as a bowler ?

Alfie - on Parkinson I saw someone (can't remember which writer now), on twitter point out that the way England play and have played Kuldeep (a slow, loopy wrist spinner)...might actually be hurting Parkinson's chances.
If they're doing that to Kuldeep on a regular basis...can you imagine what they're doing to Parkinson in the nets? I can't imagine the England management/Morgan are too keen to chuck in a guy who is a similar type of bowler to one they have utterly destroyed in recent years.

Not sure how valid a point it is...but it was an interesting one I thought. Like you, I doubt we'll see him on Sunday, but I would fancy he might get a go in the summer
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Post by alfie Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:54 pm

Yeah fair enough , Olly. I don't actually expect him to play to be honest ; but I am a believer in the principle of testing people rather than just shielding them from tough assignments...I reckon on balance the better ones survive and even prosper - and those who don't perhaps aren't worth persevering with .
Harsh test maybe . But if you decide in advance that you don't necessarily discard someone because they have a poor start then throwing them in to a hornets nest to see how they cope may not be the worst plan...

I'd expect the same team on Sunday except probably Wood back for Tom Curran.

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Post by KP_fan Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:10 pm

Why Hardik doesn't bowl in ODIs?
Kohlis says they are managing is workload .
Managing from or for what?
He say to keep him healthy ( or recovered fully from something) for the 6 tests in Eng.

Well Kohli ou manage workload by giving him 4 to 5 overs i.e not bowling him into the ground and not by not bowling him at all ....unless he is unfit ..i.e not fully recovered from something and if that's the case why he bowled 4 overs in every T20I?

Ashwin should be back in reckoning for ODIs....its a matter of time....Krunal is a bits and pieces, Chahl too predictable, Kuldeep lost his flights and zip...Washington does holds on and Jadeja when back will surely be first choice.

Jadeja, Ashwin and Washington the 3 spinners in ODIs and add Axar as the 4th one for tests
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Post by KP_fan Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:16 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Ok what on earth are England doing with Archer...

https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2077843

So he played in India in both the tests and T20s with the ongoing elbow issue (which they've done another injection for)...but also with a hand injury, which was sustained in January but which now also requires surgery (bowling hand too). I get bowlers often play with slight niggles etc, but we're playing him with injuries that require surgery!
Manage him properly you bloody idiots

ECB wrote:Jofra suffered a cut to his hand while cleaning at his home in January shortly before flying to India to prepare for the Test series

That part of the statement sounds fishy Whistle
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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:52 am

Kohli lost all the tosses in ODIs , 3 out of 4 in tests and four out of five in T20Is
He would do well to send hi vice captain at the toss

India's start.is great but given how English batters went berserk.... nothing that ind will put on board can be deemed safe
Given that the pitch is what msp calls a Road.

Game will come down to if india bowls well or actually not too badly 😂

India made one good change dumped Kuldeep for Natrajan
Krunal ain't a 10 over spinner and I would have liked to see Washington replace him
But I have a feeling brother hardik will bowl about 5 overs and krunal no more than 5

Who would have though in a game.on indian pitches , eng would play two spinners and India barely one.
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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:08 am

Very good power play for India this time clap

Dhawan - now gone on to fifty - very much in command.

With a start (92 off 13 !) like this , and this indeed does appear to be a "road" ; they could threaten 400.

Not sure England can expect their top three to repeat the heroics of Friday so I'd say the odds are very much on an Indian win this time.

England desperate for a wicket. This review looks like a very "hopeful" try...yes. Waste of a referral- very poor call.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:10 am

But now Rashid has bowled Rohit...completely bamboozled him with that one...

Needed that is an understatement!

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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:21 am

Rashid's clearly.been the best spinner on either sided in the limited over leg
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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:26 am

Pitch is turning and gripping and India with only half a non spinner
It's tragicomic England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21 - Page 18 1f601
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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:27 am

Double strike : Rashid gets Dhawan as well , for an excellent 67 clap

Neat catch off his own bowling...so two new batsmen now. Pant promoted to number four... Both spinners bowling.

And Moeen has bowled Kohli , big turnaround Shocked

121/3 . Ball is spinning today. Will India end up regretting going with the extra pace man now ?

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:36 am

Rahul needs to score a bit quicker today than he did on Friday, with what's to come after I'd almost not want to get him out.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:50 am

150 up in 23 overs so the run rate is still excellent , despite the three wickets.
Pant taking Rashid apart and I think I'd try a bit of pace at him for a change - let Moeen continue , he's been pretty tight so far.

But no : Livingstone is coming on instead of Rashid. Interesting...

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:53 am

England in cruise control at the moment. Another pitch where you need 350+, but India's wicket loss column is too high for that at the moment.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:55 am

That's comical ! Filthy leg side full toss and Rahul manages to get out to it picard

Great catch by a delighted Moeen though.

India has scored at an excellent rate but with four down they're in some danger of running out of proper batsmen... Still got Pant and a couple of Pandya's ; but lose another one now ...

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:07 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I thought Topley bowled quite well, ODI bowling is much more about the unit than individuals so I think he bowled better than his figures suggest. KPF actually touched upon it but height is a great equaliser with the white ball, enables you to vary length better which he did whereas conversely I always think Tom Curran bowls like a shorter guy, his release points could and probably should be higher.

If you have genuine pace and a slingier action like Malinga you can get away with a lower release point.

I thought that was a significant point from Soul in the last game about the bowling unit. The Rashid / Moeen combo then went for circa 5.5 an over in the middle overs and only picked up one wicket. Whilst their 1 for around 110 definitely wasn't terrible and looks pretty ok in isolation, it seemed to go under the radar of the Sky pundits who failed to comment that it contributed to India having the base to launch their devastating blitz in the final 10 overs which put them in a strong position (even though they ended up losing for reasons I won't go into here). Whilst Tom Curran in particular bowled poorly at the death, he was not put in a good place by the England spinners having had very limited wicket taking threat and effect.

Here, things are very different with 3 wickets already for Rashid & Moeen plus a fortunate one for Livingstone. Just a shame they seem to be losing control of the run rate ....

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:09 pm

This is where white ball cricket starts to lose my attention. I'm all for watching Rohit and Kohli go about things, but when a mindless slogger like Pandya starts to excel you know the balance between bat and ball is wrong.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:09 pm

Duty281 wrote:England in cruise control at the moment. Another pitch where you need 350+, but India's wicket loss column is too high for that at the moment.

You sure ? They're showing no sign of slowing down : Hardik rattling along at 200 % already...

Reckon England need more wickets or they may still be chasing 350 - or more.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:19 pm

Hi guildford

I think you have a good point there about the spin pair in the middle overs the other day. I wasn't watching for most of that spell , so didn't comment at the time ; but it did seem to me that India might have been deliberately settling for milking them (particularly Moeen who seemed from the text to have basically conceded all his 47 runs in singles) so as to set themselves up for that late onslaught, without any real risk of losing wickets.
As you say , totally different today. Lots of wickets...lots of runs too. Smile

At 216/4 in the 31st , we are presumably looking at either 350-400 , or bowled out for a good deal less...

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:19 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:England in cruise control at the moment. Another pitch where you need 350+, but India's wicket loss column is too high for that at the moment.

You sure ?  They're showing no sign of slowing down : Hardik rattling along at 200 % already...

Reckon England need more wickets or they may still be chasing 350 - or more.

No longer in cruise control because Hardik has tonked everything. But it's just showing how lifeless the pitch is and how short the boundaries are.

It really has been a dull series and a mostly dull tour too. Two of the tests were lottery non-events because of how much the bowlers were favoured over the batsmen. All three of the ODIs have been slog, slog, slog with nothing in it for the bowler.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:28 pm

ODIs here tend to be a bit like that , though , Duty. The better bowlers have still been able to influence games , even if they've faced a pretty hopeless task for the most part.
I wouldn't call these games exactly dull though. The first one featured some very good batting from both sides followed by an extraordinary collapse...and the match two chase down was spectacular even by white ball standards !

It would be nice to see a bit of help for the poor old bowlers , I agree. But I fancy we will see pitches similar to this for the next World Cup so we'd probably better get used to it...

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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:35 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:This is where white ball cricket starts to lose my attention. I'm all for watching Rohit and Kohli go about things, but when a mindless slogger like Pandya starts to excel you know the balance between bat and ball is wrong.

yup..that's how Eng won the last game.....slogging & bashing tthe the daylight out of bowlers...with power hitting across the line
that's what these Patta Road pitches do,.......doe not reward technique and batting skills
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:48 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:This is where white ball cricket starts to lose my attention. I'm all for watching Rohit and Kohli go about things, but when a mindless slogger like Pandya starts to excel you know the balance between bat and ball is wrong.

yup..that's how Eng won the last game.....slogging & bashing tthe the daylight out of bowlers...with power hitting across the line
that's what these Patta Road pitches do,.......doe not reward technique and batting skills

For me it depends on who is doing the bashing, when it's someone with proven ability you can accept the skill in it. When it is someone who can only slog it's a different proposition altogether.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:53 pm

That was some catch from Buttler. Might be the difference between 350 and 400.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:That was some catch from Buttler. Might be the difference between 350 and 400.

Indeed , an excellent grab. He will be mightily relieved too , after shelling a couple the other day...hopefully might flow on to his batting - which might be needed this time !

Stokes has done well here to drag England back into this ; although unless they can separate these two soon this is still going to be BIG

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:37 pm

Needed that intervention by Wood...seven gone now and only really Krunal left who is qualified to monster the death overs : might trim a bit off the total.

Still going to be a stiff target...

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:46 pm

But now Krunal has gone too..A wonderful outfield catch from Jason Roy , who has fielded splendidly in these games.

And Wood bowls Prasidh so at 328/9 India are probably not going to last the full fifty overs...

Good comeback from the England pace men today thumbsup

All out 329. Relief for England as it might have been so much more...

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:48 pm

Strong finish from England. Wood is fantastic against the tailenders. England should be confident of chasing it down on this.

Bookmakers have finally wised up. England were 2/1 to chase the score from the first game, 5/2 for the second game, now they're evens to get this one.

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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:48 pm

India tried to bat like Eng
Couldn't and ended up with a score lesser than last game .bolwed out with deliveries to spare
Krunal neither a batsman nor a bowler...buts and pieces
If Hardik bowls Ind can defend
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:49 pm

Good job from the bowlers to limit them to 329. It's an oddity of white ball cricket to me that the expensive Rashid bowled out but Wood only bowled seven albeit would have been eight.

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Post by alfie Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:51 pm

Less than Friday...and on an apparently better pitch. So , on paper , England are favourites.

But is it reasonable to expect Roy and Bairstow to get another hundred plus opening stand ? And if they don't , can the middle order do the job ? Not taking this one for granted.

Not going to watch either as I'm up early tomorrow morning so leave it to you fellows to bring them home Smile

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:03 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Good job from the bowlers to limit them to 329. It's an oddity of white ball cricket to me that the expensive Rashid bowled out but Wood only bowled seven albeit would have been eight.

Wood was off the field for a fair while after his initial three over burst - not sure why, but must’ve been a good 10-15 overs...think when Topley came back they wanted to bring him on but couldn’t cos he hadn’t been back on for long enough
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Post by king_carlos Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:06 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Good job from the bowlers to limit them to 329. It's an oddity of white ball cricket to me that the expensive Rashid bowled out but Wood only bowled seven albeit would have been eight.

Wood was off the field for a fair while after his initial three over burst - not sure why, but must’ve been a good 10-15 overs...think when Topley came back they wanted to bring him on but couldn’t cos he hadn’t been back on for long enough
Broad mentioned the twelfth man bringing Wood drinks every over and Wood having "lost fluids somewhere" as Broad put it. So I'd guess Wood might have had a bout of Delhi belly as well as the niggle with his heel that's been managed through the white ball leg of the tour.

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Post by king_carlos Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:12 pm

The England bowlers did well to pull things back after Pant and Pandya's burst there.

With a very good pitch and short boundaries 330 to win is below par IMO but early wickets will always change things.

Natajaran is an odd one isn't he? Broke through very late and has only played a handful of professional games but in the span of a month and a half in Australia he played international cricket in all three formats. There's something very likable about a late bloomer in the professional game.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:21 pm

India were 256/4 at one point. From there they'd have been thinking 370 minimum; it highlights how well England pulled it back and the weakness of India's lower order.

Roy gone in the first over. Alfie's pessimism arrives. But surely Buttler is due a score by the same logic?

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:35 pm

28/2, it's all uphill from here with both openers out.

Stokes dropped by Pandya. Was a sitter.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:48 pm

They do know they've got 50 overs to knock these runs off right?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:27 pm

Chasing 330+ in ODIs since 2015 World Cup:
England: won 5 lost 5 (including 1 win 1 loss in this series).
Rest of teams in top 10: won 6 lost 51.
#INDvENG

Regardless of today, that’s sensational

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:57 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Chasing 330+ in ODIs since 2015 World Cup:
England: won 5 lost 5 (including 1 win 1 loss in this series).
Rest of teams in top 10: won 6 lost 51.
#INDvENG

Regardless of today, that’s sensational

Zaltzman updated that with this...

Chasing 330+ in ODIs since 2015 World Cup:
England: won 5 lost 5.
Rest of teams in top 10: won 6 lost 51.
Chasing 300+ since 2015 WC:
England: W10 L8
Rest of top 10: W19 L97


Not the best ODI tour for Buttler with the bat...good chance for Malan and Livingstone here now, even if the match looks gone barring a miracle
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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:04 pm

Ind has learnt lessons and brought 5 seamerd and relying on Krunal as a 6th bowler and only.for.part of his quota

Won't last long as an international player if he is struggling to hold his place as 5th bowler

Ind would be ahead with all Eng big guns gone


But Livingstone is looking good

Can't take anything for granted
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:09 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:


Not the best ODI tour for Buttler with the bat...good chance for Malan and Livingstone here now, even if the match looks gone barring a miracle

I go back to my comment on Friday about Buttler, it is not easy being a three format player when your batting role in all formats is different. He opens in T20 where he just plays on instinct, in ODI's he's the finisher and in tests he plays a more controlled way. It was always going to lead to at least one aspect losing out. I personally would move him back down the order in T20 and open with Bairstow, you don't lose anything doing that but you seem to be losing a lot in the 50 over game.

Pant for instance plays test match cricket like it's a white ball match so translating that form across all formats is much simpler.

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Post by king_carlos Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:13 pm

Not a good chase thus far but I really like the look of Livingstone. Very assured at the crease.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:30 pm

Shame for Malan, done his job really well until then.

They've managed to hit fielder a lot today.

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Post by KP_fan Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:36 pm

Shardul is mercurial with his variations
Eng going down barring a miracle from Maligned Ali and Curram
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:06 pm

Been a really poor chase and they'll no doubt state after the game 'this is how we play' but they should have been smarter; Roy and Stokes in particular were very frenetic when a bit more control was needed. By the time Malan and Livingstone came together it was pretty much game over but again both needlessly gave their wickets away playing nothing shots.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:35 pm

Has been a poor chase from England. Stokes and Livingstone both out to full tosses, Roy out in kamikaze mode against the moving new ball (though it was a peach from Kumar to be fair).

S Curran giving England late hope, but likely to be forlorn.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:10 pm

S Curran and Wood indulging in the most bizarre game of will they-won't they with regards to taking singles/retaining the strike.

48 needed off 30. The faintest flame of hope still burning for England.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:21 pm

Well now, I thought SCurran was mismanaging it a bit. But that is a huge over. Game on.

Bhuvi on - this is the game?

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