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Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread.

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Heaf
tigertattie
Duty281
TightHEAD
BigGee
formerly known as Sam
mountain man
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Luckless Pedestrian
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No9
chris_501
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Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread. Empty Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread.

Post by LordDowlais Mon 08 Mar 2021, 12:30 pm

Italy v Wales
14:15

Venue: Stadio Olimpico

I thought I might as well get this started, what are we expecting ? Mass changes for Wales ? A surprise Italian win ? Wales need to win this at a canter to show that other results were not down to luck or bad refereeing.

I hope Wales stick to the same starting 15, just to keep the momentum going for the final game.

Wales team to face Italy: Liam Williams; Louis Rees-Zammit, George North, Jonathan Davies, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill, Alun Wyn Jones, Josh Navidi, Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Elliot Dee, Rhys Carre, Leon Brown, Jake Ball, Aaron Wainwright, Lloyd Williams, Callum Sheedy, Uilisi Halaholo

Italy: Jacopo Trulla; Mattia Bellini, Juan Ignacio Brex, Carlo Canna, Monty Ioane; Paolo Garbisi, Stephen Varney: Danilo Fischetti, Luca Bigi (capt), Giosue Zilocchi, Niccola Cannone, David Sisi, Sebastian Negri, Johan Meyer, Michele Lamaro.

Replacements: Oliviero Fabiani, Andrea Lovotti, Marco Riccioni, Marco Lazzaroni, Maxime Mbanda, Marcello Violi, Federico Mori, Edoardo Padovani.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:19 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Oakdene Mon 08 Mar 2021, 12:31 pm

I wonder if Ball will be given a start as a swansong, if not then there is little to no point having him in the squad.

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 08 Mar 2021, 12:32 pm

Oakdene wrote:I wonder if Ball will be given a start as a swansong, if not then there is little to no point having him in the squad.

I think that has been hinted at somewhere.

I would also start Halaholo in this one, but suspect he may give Davies more minutes

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 08 Mar 2021, 12:33 pm

Oakdene wrote:I wonder if Ball will be given a start as a swansong, if not then there is little to no point having him in the squad.

Can you see much changes ?

I reckon if we change too much, we could end up struggling. Not because the players are necessarily weaker, but because of the momentum we are gathering, I hope he does not decide to rip it all up.

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Post by chris_501 Mon 08 Mar 2021, 12:45 pm

I would go

Wyn Jones
Dee
Brown
Beard
Hill
Navidi
Tipuric
Wainwright

Williams
Sheedy
LRZ
Halaholo
North
Adams
Williams

Owens
Rhodri Jones
John
Ball
Botham
Davies
Evans
Any of the centres

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 08 Mar 2021, 12:47 pm

I don't think you are far off with that, Chris.

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Post by No9 Mon 08 Mar 2021, 1:18 pm

Make some changes and give some of the squad who haven't featured some game time, by all means.

BUT, don't underestimate Italy. This is still a MUST win game, and not just win, but win with a +40pt difference, as we need to build up those points difference to try and at least win the 6 Nations even if France take a Slam off us.

So, please Mr Pivac, don't throw it all away on Saturday.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 08 Mar 2021, 1:18 pm

chris_501 wrote:I would go

Wyn Jones
Dee
Brown
Beard
Hill
Navidi
Tipuric
Wainwright

Williams
Sheedy
LRZ
Halaholo
North
Adams
Williams

Owens
Rhodri Jones
John
Ball
Botham
Davies
Evans
Any of the centres

I can understand why, but I would be reluctent to drop AWJ and Biggar.

Whats the odds on Pivac picking Tomkins for this game ? It's something he would do.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 08 Mar 2021, 1:38 pm

I think Pivacs' objectives are;
1. Win,
2. BPW,
3. Continue with coaching strategy, continue with combos, give players game time,
4. Rest a few key players
5. Look at a few players who are on fire in their leagues

Based on that I think he'll go

15. Williams
14. LRZ
13. North
12. Davies
11. Adams
10. Sheedy
09. Williams
08. Wainwright
07. Tipuric (C)
06. Navidi
05. Ball
04. Beard
03. Francis
02. Dee
01. Wyn Jones

16. Rhodri Jones
17. Owens
18. Brown
19. AWJ
20. Botham
21. Davies
22. Priestland
23. Holmes
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Post by Oakdene Mon 08 Mar 2021, 2:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:I wonder if Ball will be given a start as a swansong, if not then there is little to no point having him in the squad.

Can you see much changes ?

I reckon if we change too much, we could end up struggling. Not because the players are necessarily weaker, but because of the momentum we are gathering, I hope he does not decide to rip it all up.

Hard to say, I feel we need to get as many points on the board as possible. I would go for something along the lines of:

W.Jones, Dee, Brown
Beard, Ball
Botham, Wainwright, Tipuric
T.Williams, Sheedy
J.Williams, North
Adams, L.Williams, Rees-Zammitt

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 08 Mar 2021, 8:44 pm

Wyn Jones
Owens
Francis
Beard
Rowlands
Hill
Botham
Wainwright

Williams
Sheedy
Adams
Halaholo
North
LRZ
Williams

Dee, Carre, John, Ball, Navidi, Davies, Evans, JD2.

I don't expect it to be anything like this.


Last edited by mikey_dragon on Mon 08 Mar 2021, 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 08 Mar 2021, 8:58 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Wyn Jones
Owens
Francis
Beard
Rowlands
Hill
Botham
Wainwright

Williams
Sheedy
Adams
Halaholo
North
Adams
Williams

Dee, Carre, John, Hill, Navidi, Davies, Evans, JD2.

I don't expect it to be anything like this.

Crikey I know Adams is good but covering both wings Very Happy
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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 08 Mar 2021, 9:02 pm

Oooopss. That'll teach me not to multitask. I've put Hill in twice as well, will edit it to what I actually had in mind!

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 09 Mar 2021, 11:40 am

I'd like us to be able to rest Tipuric as well as Faletau, but with Josh Macleod injured, there isn't another out-and-out openside in the squad. If either of Tipuric and Faletau get injured, our chances of beating France drop quite considerably.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 09 Mar 2021, 12:32 pm

I definitely think we need to rest Tips and Faletau. I'd probably rest Navidi too if it were possible, as that's been the best unit we have so far and Navidi will be needed in the 23 for France.

I don't think Tips plays as well without Navidi. Those two at 6 and 7 is pretty useful, so it wouldn't matter who played at 8 (unless it's another 7 as we think the game is past that now). For example in the past we've also had Navidi, Tipuric, Moriarty.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 09 Mar 2021, 2:55 pm

Jarrod won’t be involved as he’s been released to play for Cardiff. If Premiership teams are chasing his signature I wouldn’t surprised if he joins them, well done Pivac.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 09 Mar 2021, 2:57 pm

Which is obvious by now I guess as the team has been announced and there isn’t much change. I’ll have to disagree with Pivac on the selection again.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:10 pm

Ok so the team is up, quite a strong one I might add as well, which is a refreshing surprise.

I had visions of him playing Tompkins an Lloyd Williams and Jake Ball. I'm glad he has seen sense and it looks as though he is after a big score with this one, perhaps bring some of the vital players off when the damage is done.

I was hoping Tomos Williams would get a game, is he still injured ?

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Post by Oakdene Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:14 pm

I'm happy with that, would have liked to seen Sheedy start but apart from that it'll do. We struggle when we make wholesale changes & we need to try & ensure we get as many points from this match so that if we were to lose to France in the final match we still have a chance of winning it.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:37 pm

I still think we could have afforded to rest some players altogether. It's not fatigue I'm concerned about, it's injury. I think there's a middle ground between this and the ten changes Gatland used to make.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:39 pm

Should’ve started Sheedy and Halaholo for me. Obviously he’s going to want to give Davies more minutes though, but I would worry over Davies facing France. I would’ve rested Faletau for Wainwright too, seeing as Pivac had a look at him at 8 last weekend (probably requested he played there for Dragons too).


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 09 Mar 2021, 3:56 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Should’ve started Sheedy and Halaholo for me. Obviously he’s going to want to give Davies more minutes though, but I would worry over Davies facing France. I would’ve rested Faletau for Wainwright too, seeing as Pivac had a look at him at 8 last weekend (probably requested he played there for Dragons too).


I think they will be on at some point, probably around the 50-60 minute mark, hopefully they will be able to take advantage of some tired Italians and really make a mark.

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Post by chris_501 Tue 09 Mar 2021, 6:33 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Should’ve started Sheedy and Halaholo for me. Obviously he’s going to want to give Davies more minutes though, but I would worry over Davies facing France. I would’ve rested Faletau for Wainwright too, seeing as Pivac had a look at him at 8 last weekend (probably requested he played there for Dragons too).


Those would have been my thoughts too Risca, but I can’t blame him for wanting to go for such a strong team. What would be a good result for you in terms of scoreline?

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 09 Mar 2021, 6:45 pm

Really he has to win big, because he has managed two big wins against them previously, despite Wales not playing all that well. BP is enough though.

I take the point on how Halaholo etc can impact from the bench, but I would rather him start tbh.

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Post by No9 Tue 09 Mar 2021, 7:34 pm

Ok, glad Pivac has gone for a strong side and I hope they put a massive 40+ points on Italy... Sorry, I hate saying that, as its so disrespectful, but we need to get a big score to give a chance at the title if we slip up against France.

My only real question on that side is how the hell as Carre got back into the match day 23. Might be only the bench against Italy, but I just cant see what he brings to the side.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 09 Mar 2021, 8:15 pm

I didn’t really pay much attention to the bench, until you mentioned Carre. I guess he wants carriers on the bench too, for when the game might open up. If that was the case, I may have started Ball and used Hill as a more mobile player later on, but there we go.

It’s very exciting, the kind of runners we have to bring on. On the whole, it seems like Pivac has stacked his bench pretty well.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 09 Mar 2021, 9:05 pm

Carre isn't living up to his potential yet. He's due a lot more chances though a la Elias, Lewis, etc. What I like about Carre is that he scores when he is close to the tryline. We haven't seen him paired with Brown yet, so against the Italians that's going to be interesting.

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Post by Oakdene Wed 10 Mar 2021, 8:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Carre isn't living up to his potential yet. He's due a lot more chances though a la Elias, Lewis, etc. What I like about Carre is that he scores when he is close to the tryline. We haven't seen him paired with Brown yet, so against the Italians that's going to be interesting.

I agree, I don't rate him as a scrummager but he does score tries. That said Brown didn't, initially, fulfil me with confidence as a scrummager but he has quietly worked on that aspect so with a bit of luck Carre may do the same. It's a shame Rhodri is injured as he was looking ok when he came on in the last couple of games.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 10 Mar 2021, 8:53 am

I think we have to take age into account a little too.  When Brown burst onto the scene he was I believe 21.  And being asked to go into test match front row against grizzled props is a big ask.  I think it's rare for a 21 year old to be able to have the strength and power (edit: and of course technique) to be able to boss a scrum against more senior players.  It can be done, but rare I think.  Now he's 24 and Carre is 23 perhaps they are coming into their prime a bit more now, scrummaging wise?

Edit: just looked it up and Brown was capped by Wales in 2017 - so around 20 years old.  Carre was 2019 (21 years old).
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Post by mountain man Wed 10 Mar 2021, 10:27 am

Wales be fine anyway, Brace is ref and Gauzaure is assistant.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 11 Mar 2021, 9:08 am

Glad to see Cory Hill get his reward for the impact off the bench Vs England. AWJ got all the praise and I'm not overly sure why I didn't think he played that well. Hill on the other hand was a thorn in our side when he came on and probably the pick of the locks. Gave Wales a boost to go an see the game out.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:20 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Glad to see Cory Hill get his reward for the impact off the bench Vs England. AWJ got all the praise and I'm not overly sure why I didn't think he played that well. Hill on the other hand was a thorn in our side when he came on and probably the pick of the locks. Gave Wales a boost to go an see the game out.

Hill is a good player - some of us have been wondering where Cory has been all this time. Good in the lineout, smart player, bit of a good all-rounder like Tadhg Beirne. I don't think pairing him up with AWJ is the best partnership, he is probably better with Ball. I would have liked to have seen AWJ rested for this game actually. Hill can also play back-row but international coaches are reluctant to try that.


Last edited by RiscaGame on Thu 11 Mar 2021, 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : No need for generalisations Mikey.)

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Post by chris_501 Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:26 am

I've said before that Hill was my dark horse for the Lions due to the fact he is versatile if you also want to match up with SA physically and play him as a 6. But for Wales, I would be disappointed to see him play there over the other options we have. However, I'm pleased he's back in and around the team, he is one of those players that never seems to have a bad game.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:32 am

Aside from Lydiate and Shingler who are unavailable, do Wales have a 6? SLH is promising but is undergoing surgery now and I think he needs to bulk up. Moriarty is a 6/8 I guess but wouldn't offer as much as Shingler.

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Post by chris_501 Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:36 am

I think Wales are lucky in Navidi and Jenkins, we have guys that can play anywhere in the backrow to an excellent level.

Moriarty and Wainwright would join them in being ahead of Hill, Griffiths and Basham are also both players I would like to see in the back row. Macleod was also selected at 6 (I assume) before he got injured.

But this isn't to doubt Hill, I think he's a real quality lock.


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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:43 am

I think Macleod was selected as a 7, hence Botham coming in when he got injured. 7 seems to be his position now but he always played 8 before and was pretty good there too.

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Post by chris_501 Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:45 am

So then Tipuric was going to be in at 6?

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:52 am

chris_501 wrote:So then Tipuric was going to be in at 6?

To the best of my knowledge, no. Lydiate was 6; Wainwright is 6/8 cover; Navidi is now at 6. They might have asked MacLeod to cover 6 and 8 for Wales if he didn't get injured, but he is now a 7 for Scarlets.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:57 am

Yeah Macleod was named 6 to play against Scotland. But I assume he was originally named as a 7 in the tournament squad.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 11 Mar 2021, 4:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Glad to see Cory Hill get his reward for the impact off the bench Vs England. AWJ got all the praise and I'm not overly sure why I didn't think he played that well. Hill on the other hand was a thorn in our side when he came on and probably the pick of the locks. Gave Wales a boost to go an see the game out.

Being English = must hate on AWJ.

Hill is a good player - some of us have been wondering where Cory has been all this time. Good in the lineout, smart player, bit of a good all-rounder like Tadhg Beirne. I don't think pairing him up with AWJ is the best partnership, he is probably better with Ball. I would have liked to have seen AWJ rested for this game actually. Hill can also play back-row but international coaches are reluctant to try that.

No hate for AWJ just think that much like Farrell he is vastly overhyped in the media and as captain of his side win he gets a great write up even if his performance was average. Farrell for example has been living off England's performances despite his own personal mediocrity for some time.

I'm hoping not to see a lock at 6 come the Lions Tour personally but if Hill plays like that he could well tour as one of the locks because we are unlikely to be able to smash the Boks aside but challenge them at the breakdown and slow their attack right down, force them to kick. That's the key.

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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:22 pm

This could be a long afternoon for Italy

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Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread. Empty Re: Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread.

Post by RiscaGame Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:25 pm

Stupid card to give away.

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Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread. Empty Re: Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread.

Post by RiscaGame Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:32 pm

A little lucky there by Wales. Not great passing and nobody really straightened. Faletau could’ve had an easier finish there.

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Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread. Empty Re: Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread.

Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:35 pm

Oh is that a knock on?
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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:36 pm

Looking like it’s going to be a training run. I feel for the Italians having to put up with this, something needs to be done - or are they just not producing good enough players?

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Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread. Empty Re: Italy v Wales Stadio Olimpico SAT 13 MAR 2021 discussion thread.

Post by RiscaGame Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:38 pm

They’ll be looking at another yellow soon.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:39 pm

Italy are a complete shambles.
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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:39 pm

Gauzere Rolling Eyes
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Post by The Oracle Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:39 pm

Nice little move then with the inside pass to Adams.
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Post by The Oracle Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:40 pm

Well done The Sheriff!
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