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Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

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Post by bsando Thu 11 Mar 2021, 6:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 4 Error_10

If the Pro 16 wants to compete with the likes of the other top leagues in Europe and further abroad, they need to part ways with Premier Sports. The current Premier Sports contract with the Pro 14 finishes at the end of this season it still remains to be seen if this will be renewed or another broadcaster will takeover the rights.

Many fans have voiced their dislike of the online platform which after several seasons appears to be stable via Sky or Virgin sports packages but less so as an outright online viewing package. Coupled with annoying multiple login requirements to swap from devices and random lost connection error codes before, during and even when trying to watch on demand matches, it would be a real shame to see the new Pro 16 format begin in this manner.

Do you feel the upcoming Pro 16 competition would be a good addition to BT Sports or Sky Sports or even one of the streaming platforms like Amazon Prime?

Would it be better for a return to the domestic networks in a similar format as before?

Could CVC play a part in this decision with their recent investment in the Pro 14 league and 6N?

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:36 pm

Brendan wrote:

Thanks 7.5, the point seemed to go over others heads.  If the English teams get higher attendances for Ulster and Glasgow over Scarlets and Blues it would imply that English fans don't see Welsh teams as having value for them.

If the English fans don't want to show up more for a Welsh team over and Irish or Scottish team for a one in a few years chance then why would they show up every year for that Welsh team.

The other view of the higher attendances would be that the same number of home fans showed up and the difference was actually away fans that would be more worrying because not alot of away fans travel in the Pro14.  You would think that for Scot and Welsh fans, that euro games against English teams would be a game they would look to go too.  If Wales don't have many travelling fans then what value do they bring to home teams.

It's a wonderful thought process that dictates 'attendances' (which you've based on unsubstantiated figures and arbitrary games) are the driver in these decisions.

Why do you think that way?
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It always comes back to how would this benefit the English clubs? To give the Welsh a way in the money is clearly the major driver. Would they be able to make more when there would be more teams to share it amongst? Unlikely.
Would the prl want to dilute their power over the league? Unlikely.
Would the clubs want to risk the increased likelihood of finding themselves in the 2nd tier? Unlikely.

How long have you worked for CVC?
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:37 pm

The Oracle wrote:No-one is saying the English will go for it.  Phil, and others previously, are merely stating what would work best for the Welsh teams.

It's a good job that you're here to offer the translation service for some users of this message board.

It's amazing that they can't understand the words typed for them.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It always comes back to how would this benefit the English clubs? To give the Welsh a way in the money is clearly the major driver. Would they be able to make more when there would be more teams to share it amongst? Unlikely.
Would the prl want to dilute their power over the league? Unlikely.
Would the clubs want to risk the increased likelihood of finding themselves in the 2nd tier? Unlikely.

How long have you worked for CVC?

I don't.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

This is another beauty that is promoted by the unknowing so fair play to you. Just to educate you on this, the market place in Wales for Anglo-Welsh goes back decades, well before the Ospreys and Turks were winning PrO'Garbage leagues etc.

Why would teams with a similar salary spend "dominate" the Welsh teams? Do tell.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:40 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

Maybe if fans expect to be dominated wherever they play then they might just accept that and think "better to be able to attend the 'domination' rather than watch in on pay per view TV"  Wink .  Like I said it's not my wish or desire currently but England is the only country/nation that we border.  It seems, at least in theory, like that would be a more convenient nation to play rugby with than those overseas.  But like you say, it's different things to different people.  The Heineken Cup was massively popular in Wales even when we were getting whooped by the English.  Much of that was to do with being able to travel easily for the match and also for English fans to be able to travel here and you then get a really good matchday experience.  Perhaps part of it is where I live - I live just outside Newport and I can get to Bristol in 30 mins, Bath in an hour, Gloucester in an hour, Worcester in 1 hour 20 mins, etc.  Rail links are really good to those too.  It means that for Heineken/Challenge cups games I can seriously contemplate a visit (and I have visited some of these on a number of occasions).  Doesn't change the fact that the English don't want us/don't need us/don't care.  But it's an undeniable fact that England is just.... there!  My nearest non-Welsh Pro14 game is probably Edinburgh?  Don't fancy that drive after work on a Friday!

The problem with this is that whenever people try to discuss it the wider Pro14 fans shout "they don't want you" and the English shout "we don't need you".  While this is all true, it's not what some people in Wales on these boards are actually saying.  We're just saying that there's pro rugby on our doorstep, we like to play them, the games have historically generated good atmospheres/gates/revenue/memories, etc.  Is there anything wrong with that?

Excellent. More translation.

Why play Ulster but not Bristol? Why play a team whose purpose is simply to be controlled centrally in order to produce players for an underperforming international team? Why be in a competition with single ownership of multiple teams?

None of that is the essence of sport. None of it.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It always comes back to how would this benefit the English clubs? To give the Welsh a way in the money is clearly the major driver. Would they be able to make more when there would be more teams to share it amongst? Unlikely.
Would the prl want to dilute their power over the league? Unlikely.
Would the clubs want to risk the increased likelihood of finding themselves in the 2nd tier? Unlikely.

How long have you worked for CVC?

I don't.

Judging by your post above, they are clearly missing out on you.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:43 pm

In some cases I'm sure you're right Phil. And in some I would be. Hence the caveat.

Better run teams with head start. Obviously there's a number of caveats to the domination as well. Will the WRU still be able to help out with wages, would they be stopped. Would a similar cap be there or would that be scrapped allow Saracens to spend what they want along with Bristol etc. The overall point was that the grumbles will happen as long as the Welsh teams struggle and there's no reason to think joining a different league would offer a silver bullet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It always comes back to how would this benefit the English clubs? To give the Welsh a way in the money is clearly the major driver. Would they be able to make more when there would be more teams to share it amongst? Unlikely.
Would the prl want to dilute their power over the league? Unlikely.
Would the clubs want to risk the increased likelihood of finding themselves in the 2nd tier? Unlikely.

How long have you worked for CVC?

I don't.

Judging by your post above, they are clearly missing out on you.

Cheers.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:In some cases I'm sure you're right Phil. And in some I would be. Hence the caveat.

Better run teams with head start. Obviously there's a number of caveats to the domination as well. Will the WRU still be able to help out with wages, would they be stopped. Would a similar cap be there or would that be scrapped allow Saracens to spend what they want along with Bristol etc. The overall point was that the grumbles will happen as long as the Welsh teams struggle and there's no reason to think joining a different league would offer a silver bullet.

Sorry, but how are they 'better run'?

The WRU doesn't help out with wages.

There's plenty of reasons to see a silver bullet, if the looker is being honest.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:53 pm

Better run in terms of ownership and coaching. Cream generally rises to the top.

The WRU do give money to the teams which goes to the players.

Its more a hope than a bullet.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Better run in terms of ownership and coaching. Cream generally rise to the top.

The WRU do give money to the teams which goes to the players.

Its more a hope than a bullet.

So what measure are you using for "better run in terms of ownership and coaching"?

The RFU also pays money to the teams which goes to the players. Didn't you know?

It's a reasoned and economically sound argument as anybody with an ounce of honesty can see.

I'm looking forward to your reasoning on how English clubs are "better run in terms of ownership and coaching"
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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:01 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:
So the Premership who are looking to ringfence and maybe bring in Ealing for a rumoured £20m are just at some point in the future going to give the 4 Welsh teams the same deal for free.  Which Welsh team can pay the admission fee.

Professional rugby is contracting in England  They have effectively gone from about 20 professional clubs down to what will soon be 14.  They are no longer able to keep up with the French and will have a salary cap that is reduced which most the top Pro12 teams will be at so why would players leave.  Add in the T14 TV deal and the premiership becomes a feeder like the Pro16 but won't have the Union control to convince players to stay outside of the 60 or so who are in with a shout of international honours. How many of the Exeter boys will wait and hope Jones picks them.

Can't see the RFU sanctioning/funding an AW cup/league for u23s after what has happened with the championships.  You are more likely to see some combined A-league/championship format if any change was to happen.

Also lets remember how the AW cup became the Premership Cup.  The Welsh pulled out.  Can't see the Premership being happy about that.  Also the current Premiership TV deal includes the cup so nothing will happen until after that.

Ask NZ how many people care about a domestic league of 5 teams and how much less the TV deals are.

a) Nobody mentioned 'for free'
b) Players who don't play in England can't play for England, so you've got that wrong.
c) You may be surprised about the u23s, especially as I don't think it is for the RFU to 'sanction' in the first place. It's a PRL competition.
d) The AW Cup became the Premiership Cup, true. If you look back to the history of that it starts with the IRFU and SRU throwing the WRU out of the Celtic League. The Premiership Cup, of course, isn't being played this season, TV deal or not, so that casts further doubt on your expertise in this issue.
e) Nobody is suggesting a domestic league of 5 teams, so why did you write that?

All in all, 6 pieces of complete nonsense from you.

A) So if not for free where will the Regions get the money to join the league if it was offered.  No Bank is going to give them a loan as it's not a sound investment due to the fact the Regions wouldn't make a profit like most Professional clubs.  Can' the 4 Regions pay around the same rate as CVC paid in terms of £per% of ownership.  CVC paid £7.4m per 1% purchased. If the Welsh owned 4/17 of 73% they would need 17.17% which is £127m minimum.
A good example is Arsenal were offered Messi for 250m back in the day but couldn't raise the money so the deal never happened.  PSG where given a Simillar deal with Neymar and took it. Welsh were given the free offer and it was rejected.
B) The Premership only has to produce about 30-40 players for international matches for England.  That means about 90% of the Premership aren't in the running for getting picked.  About 50% of them will never play for England so why not get paid more in France.  For years the rate of pay wasnt much lower.  Now with the new TV deals the T14 see a 17% increase in revenue from TV.  The Prem sees a small increase but must now give 27% of it to CVC so not as much money as previously as didn't have a 27% increase.
Someone like M Brown would move to France once international duty was over.  Zach Mercer going to France is a sign of things to come because the T14 is so much richer so paying higher wages. Will players that are constantly overlooked stay in the Prem, SR and Pro14 says no they go aboard for more money.
C) You might not know but the RFU and WRU must approve any visiting team from another union to play in their juristication.  It's why Ealing haven't tried to join the Pro14 much like the Scots haven't turned LS into their 3rd team.  It's why Argentina based is Spain is so complicated and why the NZRU couldn't do their plan of going behind RA back to the SR teams.
D) The AW cup finished because the Welsh teams withdrew to focus on an u23 team league (which included the Irish).  The issue with the IRFU & SRU was when the cup started not when it ended. I never said the cup was happening this year I said the new TV deal includes Cup games. If they include the Welsh the PRL would have to give some of that to it's participates, they aren't going to just let the Regions in and give them free money.  Again it was the WRU who got rid of the AW cup and it was the WRU who backed down when kicked out of the league so they could get back in.
E) If the Pro16 doesn't suit the Welsh, they can't afford to join the English, the only other option is to either form a domestic league of the Regions plus maybe a RGC or Valley team added or scrap professional rugby in Wales.  If they leave the Pro16 none of the other 4 Unions will break away with them.  Hence the reference to the NZRU domestic competition because it is implied by you and others that the league is holding the Regions back.  Even SRA has struggled with TV deals.  A Welsh domestic league would be on BBC W and SC4 and very little else.  If anything it is the league that is keeping the Regions alive.  The 4 SA teams joining will see each Region get an extra 300k per year with the increase fee. Since the SA teams joined due to the participation agreement the Regions get an extra 800k then in 2016/17 season with travel covered when pro14.  Premier Sports doubled the TV revenue and Sky will bump it up more.

Of all the issues the PRL have with the Union owned teams, it is the 60cap rule that they dislike the most.  Irish players don't get picked if playing in the premiership.  The Scots don't care where you play.  Wales will pick players in the Premership and tell them once their contract is up with a PRL team they must come back to Wales to get 60 caps.  The amount the Regions are paying the player would be less but their international money gives them more. Why would Exeter and Bristol vote to let in teams who would pay their current players less to be under the cap. Essential the Welsh teams would be like Sarries but State sponsers rather then owner topping up outside the cap.

Scarlets are the most compeditive Welsh team who would need to cut costs to be under the new PRL cap.

The Premership TV rights already covers Wales not sure there would be a subsancial increase in revenue to offset paying 4 more. I would even wager that the amount per team would go down.

Just name one benefit the PRL would get from an AW league.  I have named just a few of negatives. When UK podcasters show Irish teams in the UK over Welsh and puts them on the red button it says UK market wants to see English v Irish games not English v Welsh games.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:02 pm

Give the Saracens setup a look Phil in terms of their approach. Widely praised by for their systems and support for their players. Without the restrictions they feel they're currenty under they wouldnt even need to cheat. Their development of players and coaches looks second to none really.

RFU pay money to the clubs should they meet metrics on English qualified players. Thats not necessarily transferred to the players however.

Hey if you think that Welsh clubs are the match for the the clubs I named fair enough.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:17 pm

Brendan wrote:

A) So if not for free where will the Regions get the money to join the league if it was offered.  No Bank is going to give them a loan as it's not a sound investment due to the fact the Regions wouldn't make a profit like most Professional clubs.  Can' the 4 Regions pay around the same rate as CVC paid in terms of £per% of ownership.  CVC paid £7.4m per 1% purchased. If the Welsh owned 4/17 of 73% they would need 17.17% which is £127m minimum.
A good example is Arsenal were offered Messi for 250m back in the day but couldn't raise the money so the deal never happened.  PSG where given a Simillar deal with Neymar and took it. Welsh were given the free offer and it was rejected.
B) The Premership only has to produce about 30-40 players for international matches for England.  That means about 90% of the Premership aren't in the running for getting picked.  About 50% of them will never play for England so why not get paid more in France.  For years the rate of pay wasnt much lower.  Now with the new TV deals the T14 see a 17% increase in revenue from TV.  The Prem sees a small increase but must now give 27% of it to CVC so not as much money as previously as didn't have a 27% increase.
Someone like M Brown would move to France once international duty was over.  Zach Mercer going to France is a sign of things to come because the T14 is so much richer so paying higher wages. Will players that are constantly overlooked stay in the Prem, SR and Pro14 says no they go aboard for more money.
C) You might not know but the RFU and WRU must approve any visiting team from another union to play in their juristication.  It's why Ealing haven't tried to join the Pro14 much like the Scots haven't turned LS into their 3rd team.  It's why Argentina based is Spain is so complicated and why the NZRU couldn't do their plan of going behind RA back to the SR teams.
D) The AW cup finished because the Welsh teams withdrew to focus on an u23 team league (which included the Irish).  The issue with the IRFU & SRU was when the cup started not when it ended. I never said the cup was happening this year I said the new TV deal includes Cup games. If they include the Welsh the PRL would have to give some of that to it's participates, they aren't going to just let the Regions in and give them free money.  Again it was the WRU who got rid of the AW cup and it was the WRU who backed down when kicked out of the league so they could get back in.
E) If the Pro16 doesn't suit the Welsh, they can't afford to join the English, the only other option is to either form a domestic league of the Regions plus maybe a RGC or Valley team added or scrap professional rugby in Wales.  If they leave the Pro16 none of the other 4 Unions will break away with them.  Hence the reference to the NZRU domestic competition because it is implied by you and others that the league is holding the Regions back.  Even SRA has struggled with TV deals.  A Welsh domestic league would be on BBC W and SC4 and very little else.  If anything it is the league that is keeping the Regions alive.  The 4 SA teams joining will see each Region get an extra 300k per year with the increase fee. Since the SA teams joined due to the participation agreement the Regions get an extra 800k then in 2016/17 season with travel covered when pro14.  Premier Sports doubled the TV revenue and Sky will bump it up more.

Of all the issues the PRL have with the Union owned teams, it is the 60cap rule that they dislike the most.  Irish players don't get picked if playing in the premiership.  The Scots don't care where you play.  Wales will pick players in the Premership and tell them once their contract is up with a PRL team they must come back to Wales to get 60 caps.  The amount the Regions are paying the player would be less but their international money gives them more.  Why would Exeter and Bristol vote to let in teams who would pay their current players less to be under the cap.  Essential the Welsh teams would be like Sarries but State sponsers rather then owner topping up outside the cap.

Scarlets are the most compeditive Welsh team who would need to cut costs to be under the new PRL cap.

The Premership TV rights already covers Wales not sure there would be a subsancial increase in revenue to offset paying 4 more.  I would even wager that the amount per team would go down.

Just name one benefit the PRL would get from an AW league.  I have named just a few of negatives.  When UK podcasters show Irish teams in the UK over Welsh and puts them on the red button it says UK market wants to see English v Irish games not English v Welsh games.

a) You've ranted about ownership via a share purchase into PRL. Nobody has mentioned this. You've gone off at a massive unrelated tangent. Why?

b) Why are you writing about Mike Brown in a conversation about an Anglo-Welsh league? It's another massive unrelated tangent. Why?

c) I'm very aware of that, thanks. Irrelevant, again, but whatever floats your boat.

d) Your first sentence is wholly wrong. Other than that, there's nothing relevant in there other than mentioning the mistakes the WRU have made.

e) Premier Sports didn't double the TV revenue. Nobody is talking about leaving the PrO'14 unless there's a better alternative.

You now seem to be ranting about Welsh teams paying less despite three of the four paying either at the PRL salary cap or, in the case of the Turks, above it. In other words, you're just making things up as you go along. You also seem pretty naive in thinking the RFU don't pay more to their clubs than the WRU pays to its clubs. So what are you on about with "state sponsors"? That's complete drivel.

PRL would get a second division of competitive rugby. They can't get that from the Scottish or the Irish.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Give the Saracens setup a look Phil in terms of their approach. Widely praised by for their systems and support for their players. Without the restrictions they feel they're currenty under they wouldnt even need to cheat. Their development of players and coaches looks second to none really.

RFU pay money to the clubs should they meet metrics on English qualified players. Thats not necessarily transferred to the players however.

Hey if you think that Welsh clubs are the match for the the clubs I named fair enough.

Really? I think there are 8 Saracens players in the England 23 for this weekend. There are 6 Cardiff players in the Welsh 23 with another two players playing at other clubs but who came through the Cardiff academy.

What was that about development of players again? What about the other 13 members of PRL? It seems they aren't developing as many players as are Cardiff, so don't your own metrics ruin your own argument?

The WRU pays money to the clubs should they meet metrics on Welsh qualified players. You know this, right?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:24 pm

Again if you think Cardiff are on the same level as Saracens have been fair enough.

Your second point, not sure I quite understand? I was saying that there is an agreement about clubs playing English qualified players.

3rd point I know you like to argue, but its been done and you're still wrong.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Again if you think Cardiff are on the same level as Saracens have been fair enough.

Your second point, not sure I quite understand? I was saying that there is an agreement about clubs playing English qualified players.

3rd point I know you like to argue, but its been done and you're still wrong.

I'm asking about YOUR metrics, remember? I'm not making a comparative judgement however much you want to move the conversation away from the key point.

So, by YOUR metric, Cardiff are as well run as Saracens. Yes? That must be what you're claiming as they are equals by YOUR metrics. Or, in reality, you wrote some nonsense in order to be smart and deliberately contrary and you've been found out.....

There's an agreement in Wales about clubs playing Welsh players. It's the same kind of agreements.

I don't know what you think the third point is, so please confirm and I'll put you right on that one as I've done on your 'metrics' nonsense.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:28 pm

"better run in terms of ownership and coaching" seems to be just Saracens, after all of that, and they can only match poor Cardiff.

No mention of the other 13 PRL clubs on how they are "better run in terms of ownership and coaching"

Just empty bluster, so easy to call out.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:31 pm

My metrics of why Saracens et al are a well run club with good coaches? Well bar the cheating they've done rather well recently. Even managed to side step the first time they were caught. Must be good to get the lawyers they did! Personally no I don't think Cardiff have as good a set of owners or coaches.

I can't be bothered with the last point, just go back to twitter and see the same points everyone puts to you, you don't listen and get a bit upset so I'd rather you just did it there for that point!

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:My metrics of why Saracens et al are a well run club with good coaches? Well bar the cheating they've done rather well recently. Even managed to side step the first time they were caught. Must be good to get the lawyers they did! Personally no I don't think Cardiff have as good a set of owners or coaches.

I can't be bothered with the last point, just go back to twitter and see the same points everyone puts to you, you don't listen and get a bit upset so I'd rather you just did it there for that point!

So you've got nothing when challenged. I could act surprised.

No mention of the other 13 PRL members, no clarity on the nonsense you've been called out, just a stupid "I don't like you calling out my emptiness so run off somewhere else and leave me to my silliness" schoolyard moan.

It's a shame that you cannot interact with honesty.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

This is another beauty that is promoted by the unknowing so fair play to you. Just to educate you on this, the market place in Wales for Anglo-Welsh goes back decades, well before the Ospreys and Turks were winning PrO'Garbage leagues etc.

Why would teams with a similar salary spend "dominate" the Welsh teams? Do tell.
You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you just called the league by it's name, otherwise you just look like someone trying to stir. I'm sure the "prO" thing was funny a decade ago but it gets old when you see it for the thousandth time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:37 pm

Hey if you don't agree Saracens were doing well, fair enough. You do get hett up, chill out its only a discussion forum, and generally well modded. If you want to call peopls points stupid or say that people aren't honest you generally get away with more on twitter. if you want a discussion thats not personal then stay and chat.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:38 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

This is another beauty that is promoted by the unknowing so fair play to you. Just to educate you on this, the market place in Wales for Anglo-Welsh goes back decades, well before the Ospreys and Turks were winning PrO'Garbage leagues etc.

Why would teams with a similar salary spend "dominate" the Welsh teams? Do tell.
You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you just called the league by it's name, otherwise you just look like someone trying to stir. I'm sure the "prO" thing was funny a decade ago but it gets old when you see it for the thousandth time.
It is the perfect summary for what it is
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey if you don't agree Saracens were doing well, fair enough. You do get hett up, chill out its only a discussion forum, and generally well modded. If you want to call peopls points stupid or say that people aren't honest you generally get away with more on twitter. if you want a discussion thats not personal then stay and chat.

Nobody is hett up.

If you want a discussion then please write with honesty. Please justify "better run in terms of ownership and coaching" in terms of the other 13 PRL members, as a start.


Last edited by PhilBB on Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:41 pm

I named, Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens Phil. Different clubs are managed and coached differently. I think they have good set ups and look like they could go onto be the main teams even if the Dragons were competing against them.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I named, Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens Phil. Different clubs are managed and coached differently.

And I asked for a justification based on the metrics you gave. By the metrics you gave about "player development", how do Wasps stack up? By your metric, that is.

And my mentioning only four, are you claiming the other 9 don't meet your criteria?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:47 pm

Wasps seem to be bringing together a really nice team. Their 2 young tens look really promising, quite excited by Atkinson, looks an exciting player but seems to have more control than Umaga. Blackett as a coach has made a great start. Will be good to see them continue to build on that. Of course I rate a coach like him differently to a coach like Dean Richards who I've never been overly impressed with.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:48 pm

God, forgot Barbeary. What a player he will be.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 18 Mar 2021, 2:48 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

This is another beauty that is promoted by the unknowing so fair play to you. Just to educate you on this, the market place in Wales for Anglo-Welsh goes back decades, well before the Ospreys and Turks were winning PrO'Garbage leagues etc.

Why would teams with a similar salary spend "dominate" the Welsh teams? Do tell.
You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you just called the league by it's name, otherwise you just look like someone trying to stir. I'm sure the "prO" thing was funny a decade ago but it gets old when you see it for the thousandth time.
It is the perfect summary for what it is
And what is it exactly?

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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 3:09 pm

It's fine Phil.  You don't see to know the rules around a team from one country playing games in another country and what that means in reality for whose approval you need. Its ik the NZRU didnt seem to know either.  WRU pulled its teams out of the AW competition to go into partnership with the IRFU. It's not soccer it's a bit more complicated.  There is a reason the rebel season is the rebel season and why it was the Union who rejected the proposal from the RFU.  Cardiff would have joined the Premership back in the day but needed WRU approval.

Premership isn't the land of lots of money ,that is the T14 and France as they look to create 40 professional clubs.  The Premership is trying to ringfence and have the Premership as the only professional league in England and copy the set up of the Pro14 teams of Top Clubs being feed by a union academy overseen and run by the Regional Club.  Large chunks of the Union funding focused on pathways from underage to international. The rest of the pyramid being detached.

If you are unaware of the implication of TV deals and league sponsers going up or staying the same in where players choose to play then I won't explain more.

If a league was dying then rats would be running away from the sinking ship like maybe a tv deal being put out on the open market and the original bidder coming back with a smaller offer.  In fact the opposite is happening where people want to be a part of the league.  SARU will pay 10m per year to be apart of the league. Sky are willing to have full right but 3 years ago didn't because EIR's bid was too much. Only thing changed is SKY sees more value in the league then 3 years ago.

If you think that pointing out the cost of the Welsh teams to join the Premership is a tangent then you don't understand the current situation.  If the two leagues join CVC will still have their 27%.  If only an AW league formed and the Premership stopped being CVC would take them to court.  Ealing must buy in, no other team will get in without paying. You compared the Regions to Harrods yet no one else sees them like that.

The RFU props up the Premership just like every other union.  That goes to the club's.  The RFU don't demand  that players leave certain clubs so they can continue getting picked internationally.  They don't pick overseas players and then tell them that at contract renewal they must return to England.  They don't facilate players on mass returning to England and agreeing deals and then and telling them to pick a team in England to play for.

In the Pro14 the rules are simple.  Rugby in your country is your Unions problem and no one elses.  If Italy Wales and SA want private people pumping money into teams that's up to them.  If the Union is doing a terrible job that is up to then.  If Unions want project players who cares.

If the league is dying in a country it's the Union's fault.  If the TV deal doesn't suit a country it's the Union's fault.  If fans aren't interested it's the Union's/team's fault.

Ref issues it's the league and I am sure you will congratulate the league for bringing through more and more refs that are better then when the Unions did it themselves. I am sure you are glad a new Scottish ref has been brought through.  It's the leagues issue if there aren't good covid rules in place.  It's the leagues fault if the value of the league isn't increasing and I am sure you are happy to praise the league for all this great work.  I don't think we understand how much work the league has down to get the SA on board and running well in such sort time.  Often the league covers for union incompetence and gets blamed for things it is not responsible for such as teams folding (union/owner issue) and the Unions not have enough houses/people to make a big enough market.

Comparing the league running to the Premeriship on the Sarries point deductions debacle where rules were changed and penalties imposed that weren't there.  Or the whole debate and handling of relegation this and last year.

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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 3:15 pm

Newcastle I think are one of the best run teams in Europe. Don't have the rugby fan base of Exeter so can't maintain and growth. They are constantly bring through talent and run for a relatively good price. If relegation is scrapped they will be one of the big winners.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 18 Mar 2021, 3:54 pm

Brendan wrote:If the league is dying in a country it's the Union's fault. If the TV deal doesn't suit a country it's the Union's fault. If fans aren't interested it's the Union's/team's fault.

I'm sorry, thats just nonsense. The union did not decide to sell the league to Premier Sport, a broadcaster that nobody knew about.

In fact, if you look at things outside the Pro14, when the unions were in charge of the European competition, there were more money and sponsors ect.....

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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 5:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:If the league is dying in a country it's the Union's fault.  If the TV deal doesn't suit a country it's the Union's fault.  If fans aren't interested it's the Union's/team's fault.

I'm sorry, thats just nonsense. The union did not decide to sell the league to Premier Sport, a broadcaster that nobody knew about.

In fact, if you look at things outside the Pro14, when the unions were in charge of the European competition, there were more money and sponsors ect.....

So the league that was owned by the SRU, WRU AND IRFU weren't responsible for the deal they signed off on. It's not the premiership who are owned by the clubs. The TV deal was secured by the league people but had to be signed off by the shareholders.

The WRU could have vetoed the TV deal as could the SRU or IRFU. None of them did and all figured the reward was greater then the cost. The WRU were quick to add to their coffers by using the gap in the BBC schedule to get some Welsh Premiership games on TV thus giving more Welsh people access to their team on TV so I would say the WRU were happy to take more for the premier deal plus the BBC money as the added bonus.

They had an offer from sky but decieded not to take it.

Believe it or not the WRU are not being bullied by the IRFU and SRU.

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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 5:22 pm

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:If the league is dying in a country it's the Union's fault.  If the TV deal doesn't suit a country it's the Union's fault.  If fans aren't interested it's the Union's/team's fault.

I'm sorry, thats just nonsense. The union did not decide to sell the league to Premier Sport, a broadcaster that nobody knew about.

In fact, if you look at things outside the Pro14, when the unions were in charge of the European competition, there were more money and sponsors ect.....

So the league that was owned by the SRU, WRU AND IRFU weren't responsible for the deal they signed off on.  It's not the premiership who are owned by the clubs.  The TV deal was secured by the league people but had to be signed off by the shareholders.

The WRU could have vetoed the TV deal as could the SRU or IRFU.  None of them did and all figured the reward was greater then the cost.  The WRU were quick to add to their coffers by using the gap in the BBC schedule to get some Welsh Premiership games on TV thus giving more Welsh people access to their team on TV so I would say the WRU were happy to take more for the premier deal plus the BBC money as the added bonus.

They had an offer from sky but decieded not to take it.

Believe it or not the WRU are not being bullied by the IRFU and SRU.

In regards to Europe the new organisation decided to sell the competition in parts to many partners.  It makes less because many of those parts when unsold such as getting rid of Heniken as the main sponsers and letting them being one if a few sponsers only for no other sponsers signing up thus making them the title sponsers for less money

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:29 pm

PhilBB wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
I know I am in a minority, but I think a B&I league is going to happen some time in the future.  And it will come down to money.  The more matches between the big clubs will drive awareness and attendance.  And I think that in turn trickles down to the other clubs.   And I also think including the SA teams will only make this even bigger and better.  Given the tv revenue would be pooled, using the NFL tv model, the SA teams could receive their revenue in Euro or Pounds which will significantly help their budgets.  

With my regular on-going email dialogue with ESPN and so on regarding tv rights for North America, they see the Pro14/16 as a complicated league to deal with due to different rights in different nations.  Importantly, however, they see the league as a priority and still show every match on their streaming platform and usually one game per weekend on one of their cable tv channels.

How will you get to a B&I League with the ownership model and opaque finances in Scotland and Ireland?
Teams are already playing each other in the Heineken Cup and the ownership models are different.  I think the route is to normalise the salary spend for all teams, or rather the absolute maximum teams, clubs, or franchises can pay to the entire squad and also a rock bottom minimum.  Also min and max number of players in each squad.  This would equilibrate spend to a great degree making the ownership model a minor problem.  This would bring real competitive balance.

Every national union and their teams would have to understand and agree their finances are open and audited independently to assure compliance.  I believe the ownership groups/unions, which are caught in the stasis of decisions made in the immediate post amateur days, will eventually come to the table because there will be more money there.  In fact, the only thing which would override the parochialism of today is £€$.

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 19 Mar 2021, 10:09 am

Been asking around with other people who are Season Ticket holders and the general feeling is they will watch a lot less Pro14 if it goes to Sky.

The general feeling is it will be cheaper to go down the pub (assuming it allowed !)
Lets say 10 away games - that assumes 1 play off match on average.
But 4 pints at £4.50 = £18 a match - £180 a season.
Will save £90 from not subscribing to Premier Sports.
Subscribe to Sky for 9 months equates to an extra £225 if you are with BT, close to £300 if are with Virgin.
So go down the pub, drink beer with your mates and save money !
(I like the idea of telling my wife I am going to the pub for a drink to save money !)
The net impact will be less exposure for all none Ulster games with zero viewing.

The assumption transferring to Sky, unearthing new viewers and increasing interest is dubious

The other thing I would say to those happy to move to Sky.
You do realise the reason for Sky sports fees are so high is soccer.
By paying their rates you are subsiding soccer.
Fine if you like that sport, if you don't its a rip off.

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Post by Kingshu Fri 19 Mar 2021, 5:04 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
I know I am in a minority, but I think a B&I league is going to happen some time in the future.  And it will come down to money.  The more matches between the big clubs will drive awareness and attendance.  And I think that in turn trickles down to the other clubs.   And I also think including the SA teams will only make this even bigger and better.  Given the tv revenue would be pooled, using the NFL tv model, the SA teams could receive their revenue in Euro or Pounds which will significantly help their budgets.  

With my regular on-going email dialogue with ESPN and so on regarding tv rights for North America, they see the Pro14/16 as a complicated league to deal with due to different rights in different nations.  Importantly, however, they see the league as a priority and still show every match on their streaming platform and usually one game per weekend on one of their cable tv channels.

How will you get to a B&I League with the ownership model and opaque finances in Scotland and Ireland?
Teams are already playing each other in the Heineken Cup and the ownership models are different.  I think the route is to normalise the salary spend for all teams, or rather the absolute maximum teams, clubs, or franchises can pay to the entire squad and also a rock bottom minimum.  Also min and max number of players in each squad.  This would equilibrate spend to a great degree making the ownership model a minor problem.  This would bring real competitive balance.

Every national union and their teams would have to understand and agree their finances are open and audited independently to assure compliance.  I believe the ownership groups/unions, which are caught in the stasis of decisions made in the immediate post amateur days, will eventually come to the table because there will be more money there.  In fact, the only thing which would override the parochialism of today is £€$.

Would they also have to agree on number of overseas players allowed, the IRFU teams are only allowed 2 currently would RFU teams agree with that?

Personally I would love there to be a limit on NQ players per team, set depending on league position over two years, so it kinda acts like a way to even up a league. For example the top two teams can sign two NQ players on two year contracts, the bottom team can sign 8 NQ players on two year contracts.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri 19 Mar 2021, 5:23 pm

Kingshu wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
I know I am in a minority, but I think a B&I league is going to happen some time in the future.  And it will come down to money.  The more matches between the big clubs will drive awareness and attendance.  And I think that in turn trickles down to the other clubs.   And I also think including the SA teams will only make this even bigger and better.  Given the tv revenue would be pooled, using the NFL tv model, the SA teams could receive their revenue in Euro or Pounds which will significantly help their budgets.  

With my regular on-going email dialogue with ESPN and so on regarding tv rights for North America, they see the Pro14/16 as a complicated league to deal with due to different rights in different nations.  Importantly, however, they see the league as a priority and still show every match on their streaming platform and usually one game per weekend on one of their cable tv channels.

How will you get to a B&I League with the ownership model and opaque finances in Scotland and Ireland?
Teams are already playing each other in the Heineken Cup and the ownership models are different.  I think the route is to normalise the salary spend for all teams, or rather the absolute maximum teams, clubs, or franchises can pay to the entire squad and also a rock bottom minimum.  Also min and max number of players in each squad.  This would equilibrate spend to a great degree making the ownership model a minor problem.  This would bring real competitive balance.

Every national union and their teams would have to understand and agree their finances are open and audited independently to assure compliance.  I believe the ownership groups/unions, which are caught in the stasis of decisions made in the immediate post amateur days, will eventually come to the table because there will be more money there.  In fact, the only thing which would override the parochialism of today is £€$.

Would they also have to agree on number of overseas players allowed, the IRFU teams are only allowed 2 currently would RFU teams agree with that?

Personally I would love there to be a limit on NQ players per team, set depending on league position over two years, so it kinda acts like a way to even up  a league. For example the top two teams can sign two NQ players on two year contracts, the bottom team can sign 8 NQ players on two year contracts.
Where did you see that only 2 NIQ players are allowed now?

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Post by Kingshu Fri 19 Mar 2021, 6:57 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
I know I am in a minority, but I think a B&I league is going to happen some time in the future.  And it will come down to money.  The more matches between the big clubs will drive awareness and attendance.  And I think that in turn trickles down to the other clubs.   And I also think including the SA teams will only make this even bigger and better.  Given the tv revenue would be pooled, using the NFL tv model, the SA teams could receive their revenue in Euro or Pounds which will significantly help their budgets.  

With my regular on-going email dialogue with ESPN and so on regarding tv rights for North America, they see the Pro14/16 as a complicated league to deal with due to different rights in different nations.  Importantly, however, they see the league as a priority and still show every match on their streaming platform and usually one game per weekend on one of their cable tv channels.

How will you get to a B&I League with the ownership model and opaque finances in Scotland and Ireland?
Teams are already playing each other in the Heineken Cup and the ownership models are different.  I think the route is to normalise the salary spend for all teams, or rather the absolute maximum teams, clubs, or franchises can pay to the entire squad and also a rock bottom minimum.  Also min and max number of players in each squad.  This would equilibrate spend to a great degree making the ownership model a minor problem.  This would bring real competitive balance.

Every national union and their teams would have to understand and agree their finances are open and audited independently to assure compliance.  I believe the ownership groups/unions, which are caught in the stasis of decisions made in the immediate post amateur days, will eventually come to the table because there will be more money there.  In fact, the only thing which would override the parochialism of today is £€$.

Would they also have to agree on number of overseas players allowed, the IRFU teams are only allowed 2 currently would RFU teams agree with that?

Personally I would love there to be a limit on NQ players per team, set depending on league position over two years, so it kinda acts like a way to even up  a league. For example the top two teams can sign two NQ players on two year contracts, the bottom team can sign 8 NQ players on two year contracts.
Where did you see that only 2 NIQ players are allowed now?

Going from Geoffs earler work.

For next season
Ulster:
NIQ - Nakarawa, Carter
Residency - None
Grandparent - Herring, Reidy, Burns, Milasinovich

Leinster:
NIQ - None
Residency - Lowe, Gibson-Park, Abdaladazh
Grandparent - Bent

Munster:
NIQ - De Allende, Snyman, Salanoa
Residency - Cloete, Stander, Kleyn, Knox
Grandparent - Haley, Gallagher

So while nothing is set, it apears the IRFU are targetting 2 NIQ

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 23 Mar 2021, 9:37 am

Id quite forgotten this.
My recollection is Nucifora was pushing for the 4+1 unwritten limit to be reduced to 3+1 asap with a longer term goal (3 years) being 3 in total. We are at that 3 year point.
In essence no Province can have more than 3 NIQ players (including those qualifying through residency) in their squad at any one time.

For completeness here is Connacht for next year:
NIQ - O'Donnell, Porch
Residency - Butler, Papali'i **, Aki, Roux
Grandparent - Bealham, Robertson-McCoy

** has yet to finish his Residency period

Obviously Stander should be deleted from the Munster list

So on that basis all Provinces will have 3 or less NIQ players in their squad for 2021/2022
Indeed Ulster and Leinster meet the limit even if you include those who have qualified through residency

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 23 Mar 2021, 11:40 am

Papali'i is a hell'uva find. RL convert right? I don't see Ireland trying to cap him as they're well stocked in the back-row. He is good to have available all season though.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 23 Mar 2021, 3:50 pm

He is indeed the RL convert

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 23 Mar 2021, 4:38 pm

With the PRO16 likely to move to Sky Sports platform in Britain and Ireland and likely DAZN and SuperSport in Italy and South Africa, the costs for fans are going to increase.

Sky will put the PRO16 on an additional channel for which existing Sky subscribers will have to pay extra, and new subscribers pay more than Eir Sport or Premier Sports with fewer games available to watch.  

eir Sport has announced they are not going to continue purchasing sports rights so they will not be involved next season.   BT Sport are not interested.   Effectively, that leaves less competition for Sky who will price their offer accordingly and the packages they provide to fans.

£10 a month is going to look like a bargain...
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 24 Mar 2021, 7:46 am

Pot Hale wrote:£10 a month is going to look like a bargain...

You were not paying that though.

How much per month were you paying for EIR sports ?

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Post by Pete330v2 Wed 24 Mar 2021, 9:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:£10 a month is going to look like a bargain...

You were not paying that though.

How much per month were you paying for EIR sports ?

I've been paying £5.99 a month for Premier sports, if you're paying a tenner you need to hone those negotiating skills Smile

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 24 Mar 2021, 11:07 am

Just checked and EIR sports is 15 euros a month for the first 3 months, then it goes up to 30 euros a month.

So Sky would be cheaper.

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Post by BamBam Wed 24 Mar 2021, 11:27 am

A new customer signing up to Sky for the purpose of watching Pro Rugby in Ireland would pay €30 up front, €25 per month for Sky Entertainment and €20 for 6 months for Sky Sports.

After 6 months the price for Sky Sports increases to €40

Sky Ireland wrote:6 months half price Sky Sports offer: Sky Sports €20 extra pm for 6 months, then standard price (currently €40 extra pm) unless you cancel giving at least 31 days’ notice. Requires Sky TV on 12 month minimum term.

All easy to check on the Sky Ireland website

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 24 Mar 2021, 11:47 am

BamBam wrote:A new customer signing up to Sky for the purpose of watching Pro Rugby in Ireland would pay €30 up front, €25 per month for Sky Entertainment and €20 for 6 months for Sky Sports.

After 6 months the price for Sky Sports increases to €40

Sky Ireland wrote:6 months half price Sky Sports offer: Sky Sports €20 extra pm for 6 months, then standard price (currently €40 extra pm) unless you cancel giving at least 31 days’ notice. Requires Sky TV on 12 month minimum term.

All easy to check on the Sky Ireland website

Is that for the full SKY sports package ?

You can chose your Channels, they are circa about £10 each a month. I have the whole shooting match, for every channel, so I do not really look into it.

Have Sky put the price for the rugby package yet ?

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Post by BamBam Wed 24 Mar 2021, 11:59 am

Its what you need to get Sky Sports in Ireland as per the above discussion, you need to have Sky TV, can't just get the sports channels on their own.

In the UK its pretty similar - £25 for the "Entertainment" package, but we have the option to only get 1 Sky Sports channel rather than pay for the lot. So if Sky put out a Rugby channel, in theory you could subscribe to that alone for £18, but they make it quite difficult to even find that on the website and would obviously rather that you go for the full package at £22 per month on the current offer, usually £30

UK Pricing
£25 Entertainment
£18 Rugby only or £22 / £30 for all sports

Ireland Pricing
€25 Entertainment
€20 / €40 All sports

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