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LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 13 Apr 2021, 3:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 10:42 am

nlpnlp wrote:To add my 2 pence worth on a couple of issues:

Stuart Hoggs plus points – great attacking qualities ball in hand; very big boot which is going to be particularly valuable at altitude; captaincy experience at test level.  Things against – has been on 2 previous Lions Tours with little impact; quite likely to be in Premiership Final so will be unavailable for early part of tour; not the best under the high ball.

Barring injury I can’t see anyone but AWJ being captain.  A rugby team isn’t about picking the best 15 individual players and this is even more true for the Lions which has some fairly unique issues combing 4 International sides into 1.  He has more 6 Nations winners medals and Grand Slams than anyone else, plus the small matter of more than 150 International caps – would any other player have the respect from the rest of the squad that he has?  Gatland knows him better than anyone else and trusts him.  You know South Africa’s game plan for the first 30 minutes of each game will be to try and smash the Lions front 5.  At over 19st AWJ is one of if not the biggest lock available.  Pick him to do the donkey work and let the likes of Ryan, Itoje and Henderson duke it out for the flash part of the job.  Beirne for me has ruled himself out of contention for the second row with his performances in the 6 Nations and put himself into pole position for the 6 shirt.

Keep thinking about poor Phil Vickery with Jones behind him in the first test then Shaw behind him in the 3rd.

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 10:42 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:People may not like it, but I would love to see Itoje named captain. For one, he's a fantastic player, a definite starter and one of the best players on the previous tour. He also plays right on the edge (sometimes over) and being captain you tend to get away with a bit more.

He's a world class player, deffo got "banked credit", I don't agree he is a definite starter, he got caught out in 2021, Gray and Cummings outplayed him, as did AWJ and Beirne at lock outplayed in every facet of the game (MI got turned over twice). His main strength has always being his "jackalling" however it was clear that Pivac, Farrell and Toonie had "a word in the ear" about his indiscretions, Itoje is the same as the 2018-20 model but now the refs are looking at the "edge" hence in 2021 he wasn't as much a jackal

He definitely isn't captain material, his whooping, hollering, patting of bums, screaming in opponents faces might go down well with Eddie's mindset but can you imagine him doing that to Beirne, AWJ, Henderson, Sexton or even worse Finn. He comes across as a dirt track bully, winding opponents and ref's up equally. Lions ethos is different to Eddies England

I'd love to see the BLM represented by MI and Kolisi as captains, would be an awesome dream come true, but unfortunately as players they are as far apart as you can get
One penalty away from the 6Ns record doesn't inspire confidence in a player or captain

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:02 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:People may not like it, but I would love to see Itoje named captain. For one, he's a fantastic player, a definite starter and one of the best players on the previous tour. He also plays right on the edge (sometimes over) and being captain you tend to get away with a bit more.

He's a world class player, deffo got "banked credit", I don't agree he is a definite starter, he got caught out in 2021, Gray and Cummings outplayed him, as did AWJ and Beirne at lock outplayed in every facet of the game (MI got turned over twice). His main strength has always being his "jackalling" however it was clear that Pivac, Farrell and Toonie had "a word in the ear" about his indiscretions, Itoje is the same as the 2018-20 model but now the refs are looking at the "edge" hence in 2021 he wasn't as much a jackal

He definitely isn't captain material, his whooping, hollering, patting of bums, screaming in opponents faces might go down well with Eddie's mindset but can you imagine him doing that to Beirne, AWJ, Henderson, Sexton or even worse Finn. He comes across as a dirt track bully, winding opponents and ref's up equally. Lions ethos is different to Eddies England


Not sure I can agree that he got caught out at all, despite selection being about individual performances that isn't how much matches are decided. The pack were outplayed on occassion notably by Ireland and Scotland, a lot of that came down to Mako playing poorly both times, Jonny Hill not being up to international rugby, Wilson being anonymous in the back row, Billy being unfit etc. All of that meant Itoje and Curry having far too much to do so the line they often play on was crossed.

Itoje's mindset seemed to go down quite will with a few of those players when he was instrumental in drawing the previous tour, not sure how his team mates would be irritated by his in your face attitude?

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Post by Old Man Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:11 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Potential captains for me are Itoje, AWJ, Curry, Sexton and Hogg.

People may not like it, but I would love to see Itoje named captain. For one, he's a fantastic player, a definite starter and one of the best players on the previous tour. He also plays right on the edge (sometimes over) and being captain you tend to get away with a bit more.

On to the romantic side.....in an era of BLM and social media going to the wall with racist abuse in football, what a statement it would be if Rugby has Itoje and Kolisi as captains on one of the biggest stages in rugby. I know you would get the cynics suggesting a token call etc, but I would genuinely feel it would be deserved.

Isn’t Itoje’s inability to adjust to refereeing interpretations and his continued frustration he shows towards them a hindrance to him being captain?

I would think he needs more maturity and a willingness to be more adaptable and diplomatic towards referees

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:23 am

It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:24 am

Yeah can't agree with practically any part of flys post.

Why does Itoje show immaturity and where does he lack diplomacy either biltong?

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:34 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Itoje's mindset seemed to go down quite will with a few of those players when he was instrumental in drawing the previous tour, not sure how his team mates would be irritated by his in your face attitude?

That's a fair call, I'm sure all the Lions players would be with him 100% as will I if he is made captain but (just my opinion) it's all about balance

Totally agree its a team game not individual performances but as Eddie said, if his players can't understand how to play within the new laws then he's have to get ref's in on the training session, MI was one player whose strength was jackalling due to playing on the edge but as Pivac assessed (when this year the ref's have had to have a look at this "edge")

"Itoje conceded five penalties on his own as England’s discipline fell apart in the later stages of the match and Pivac – whose own team were far more streetwise – admitted he expected the England second row to be sent to the sin bin.

“Yes, probably before half-time on the fourth one (penalty conceded).

“That is a lot of penalties for one player. He is pushing the boundaries, clearly, but he is a world-class player. Sometimes world-class players get away with a little bit more than others."


In my mind he was even worse against us and got away with it

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah can't agree with practically any part of flys post.

Why does Itoje show immaturity and where does he lack diplomacy either biltong?

That's ok compardre, it's just my opinion.

I think MI was one of England's better players in the 6Ns and I've got him in my Lions Test 15 because I think he is intelligent enough to listen to Gats & Co, adjust his game and be one of our key players, it's just 1-on-1 during the 6Ns matches he was behind, Gray (and Cummings), AWJ, Beirne (and Henderson) because he wasn't allowed to gain the competitive edge by gaining a couple of metres on the opponent as he could during 2018-2020.

You don't have to agree but would be nice to qualify your opinion.
Do you not agree that Gray, AWJ or Beirne outplayed in the lock position during the 6Ns?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:52 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah can't agree with practically any part of flys post.

Why does Itoje show immaturity and where does he lack diplomacy either biltong?

That's ok compardre, it's just my opinion.

I think MI was one of England's better players in the 6Ns and I've got him in my Lions Test 15 because I think he is intelligent enough to listen to Gats & Co, adjust his game and be one of our key players, it's just 1-on-1 during the 6Ns matches he was behind, Gray (and Cummings), AWJ, Beirne (and Henderson) because he wasn't allowed to gain the competitive edge by gaining a couple of metres on the opponent as he could during 2018-2020.

You don't have to agree but would be nice to qualify your opinion.
Do you not agree that Gray, AWJ or Beirne outplayed in the lock position during the 6Ns?

I agree, he is a starter for me, but captain, not a snowballs chance in hell. Not unless he changes his behaviour.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:57 am

One on one judging impacts no, Itoje is the best lock in the world with Retallick out. Part of a well beaten pack against Ireland and Scotland though for the reasons Soul stated above. If it does come back round to 6Ns form though I can appreciate a lot will see England finishing 5th and use it to push others though.

Still only 3 definite starters that I think Gatland will pick. Itoje is one of them, Furlong and Curry the others.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 11:58 am

LordDowlais wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah can't agree with practically any part of flys post.

Why does Itoje show immaturity and where does he lack diplomacy either biltong?

That's ok compardre, it's just my opinion.

I think MI was one of England's better players in the 6Ns and I've got him in my Lions Test 15 because I think he is intelligent enough to listen to Gats & Co, adjust his game and be one of our key players, it's just 1-on-1 during the 6Ns matches he was behind, Gray (and Cummings), AWJ, Beirne (and Henderson) because he wasn't allowed to gain the competitive edge by gaining a couple of metres on the opponent as he could during 2018-2020.

You don't have to agree but would be nice to qualify your opinion.
Do you not agree that Gray, AWJ or Beirne outplayed in the lock position during the 6Ns?

I agree, he is a starter for me, but captain, not a snowballs chance in hell. Not unless he changes his behaviour.

What behaviour? You've already called on Jones to be captain and he goads other players all the time.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah can't agree with practically any part of flys post.

Why does Itoje show immaturity and where does he lack diplomacy either biltong?

That's ok compardre, it's just my opinion.

I think MI was one of England's better players in the 6Ns and I've got him in my Lions Test 15 because I think he is intelligent enough to listen to Gats & Co, adjust his game and be one of our key players, it's just 1-on-1 during the 6Ns matches he was behind, Gray (and Cummings), AWJ, Beirne (and Henderson) because he wasn't allowed to gain the competitive edge by gaining a couple of metres on the opponent as he could during 2018-2020.

You don't have to agree but would be nice to qualify your opinion.
Do you not agree that Gray, AWJ or Beirne outplayed in the lock position during the 6Ns?

I agree, he is a starter for me, but captain, not a snowballs chance in hell. Not unless he changes his behaviour.

What behaviour? You've already called on Jones to be captain and he goads other players all the time.

You know exactly what I am talking about, I am not getting dragged into it with you, as I do not want to derail the topic. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:04 pm

LD, its not derailing the thread to explain what you mean. Make your point.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:06 pm

OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:07 pm

I assume you accept you have no point then. Good on you.

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:One on one judging impacts no, Itoje is the best lock in the world with Retallick out. Part of a well beaten pack against Ireland and Scotland though for the reasons Soul stated above. If it does come back round to 6Ns form though I can appreciate a lot will see England finishing 5th and use it to push others though.

Still only 3 definite starters that I think Gatland will pick. Itoje is one of them, Furlong and Curry the others.

7&1/2 wrote:"One on one judging impacts no, Itoje is the best lock in the world with Retallick out"
Sorry that one statement says it all

Seriously you can honestly say that Gray (who absolutely trounced him in every single facet of lock play) didn't outplay him, or for that matter Beirne when Ireland battered England, the only thing I was disappointed in was that Ryan was injured as I believe that would have been a full house.

Sorry mate, he not the best lock in the UK let alone the world on 2021 form and he certainly isn't when operating within the 2020/21 laws

I have him in my Lions starting 15 because I think he can modify, adjust and tinker with his game to get back to the 2019 model, not because of his 2021 form

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume you accept you have no point then. Good on you.

I have given my reason earlier on in the thread, so I am not engaging with you on the subject, now please let it go. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:14 pm

What laws have changed from autumn 2020 to 2021 fly?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume you accept you have no point then. Good on you.

I have given my reason earlier on in the thread, so I am not engaging with you on the subject, now please let it go. OK  

You haven't. But thats ok I know you can't back up your statement. Move on indeed.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:25 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:

Seriously you can honestly say that Gray (who absolutely trounced him in every single facet of lock play) didn't outplay him, or for that matter Beirne when Ireland battered England, the only thing I was disappointed in was that Ryan was injured as I believe that would have been a full house.

Sorry mate, he not the best lock in the UK let alone the world on 2021 form and he certainly isn't when operating within the 2020/21 laws

I have him in my Lions starting 15 because I think he can modify, adjust and tinker with his game to get back to the 2019 model, not because of his 2021 form

In the distant past of November, a whole four months before the six nations Itoje was comprehensively outplaying James Ryan and Alun Wyn Jones. I'm assuming those games were too long ago to matter?

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:39 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:In the distant past of November, a whole four months before the six nations Itoje was comprehensively outplaying James Ryan and Alun Wyn Jones. I'm assuming those games were too long ago to matter?

Miow!

Do you mean the ANC
Itoje was absolutely phenomenal against Ireland, in my mind he was MOTM. See if it's plain to see I will say it

Against Wales.... 7 loses on the bounce, 6 british Lions injured with rookies Shane Lewis-Hughes & Botham and Louis Rees-Zammit and I believe AWJ first couple of games back after what almost 6-12 months out. England were overwhelming favourites but it was workmanlike at best, Itoje was nothing special, in fact if I recall AWJ was pretty damn good considering every man and his dog was saying after such a long injury he was finished

Ok?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:42 pm

Dear me fly. What law(s) changed from 2020 AIs to 2021?

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:42 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:In the distant past of November, a whole four months before the six nations Itoje was comprehensively outplaying James Ryan and Alun Wyn Jones. I'm assuming those games were too long ago to matter?

Miow!

Do you mean the ANC
Itoje was absolutely phenomenal against Ireland, in my mind he was MOTM. See if it's plain to see I will say it

Against Wales.... 7 loses on the bounce, 6 british Lions injured with rookies Shane Lewis-Hughes & Botham and Louis Rees-Zammit and I believe AWJ first couple of games back after what almost 6-12 months out. Itoje was nothing special

Ok?

You didn't take much notice when I made an equally valid point with regards to Itoje's performances during the six nations; poor refereeing, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Underhill, Marler, Tuilagi not available etc. If we're making excuses for one then excuses count for the other.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:46 pm

Whilst I was very annoyed with Pivac during the autumn, it is now very clear to see that he used that time to look at his options and experiment with players ect...

A new coach taking a team through a transition.

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 12:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dear me fly. What law(s) changed from 2020 AIs to 2021?

Why are you asking me did I say they changed during that time?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:03 pm

You mentioned about the laws and Itojes 21 form. Just wondered if you could name the law change from the Autumn. I don't think there has been any and just wondered if you knew of one or two.

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Post by MichaelT Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:04 pm

When was this period that AWJ was out in 2020? i have seen it mentioned a couple of times now. Did he not play in every Welsh test last year - if he wasnt there why was Marler banned in March 2020? for doing a nude sooty impression?

PS Soul - you cant mention England being without players like Tuilagi, Nowell, Cokanasiga, Lawes or trying new ones like Earl, Willis, Hill, Lawrence, Malins in 2020. It doesn't fit the narrative.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:06 pm

What narrative ?

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Post by MichaelT Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:What narrative ?

That everyone except England tried new players last year, and/ or had injuries to deal with.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:12 pm

MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What narrative ?

That everyone except England tried new players last year, and/ or had injuries to deal with.

I havent seen that on this thread.

Anyway, if you think that, then tell us what new players England experimented with ect....

From what I could see, you still had all the same coaches and a very settled team, I wouldn't argue against though, as I cannot really remember.


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Post by Old Man Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:12 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

I don’t have a problem with Itoje’s penalties, I have read numerous remarks on his attitude, which is good if you want to be that player, however if you want to captain a team there is a certain diplomacy and curtesy that comes with the job.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:13 pm

Old Man wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

I don’t have a problem with Itoje’s penalties, I have read numerous remarks on his attitude, which is good if you want to be that player, however if you want to captain a team there is a certain diplomacy and curtesy that comes with the job.

Come on you're going to have to back that up.

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Post by Old Man Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

I don’t have a problem with Itoje’s penalties, I have read numerous remarks on his attitude, which is good if you want to be that player, however if you want to captain a team there is a certain diplomacy and curtesy that comes with the job.

Come on you're going to have to back that up.

What needs backing up, I am querying the wisdom of him being captain, if you look at Rassie’s analysis of referees for the RWC his intention was to never get on the wrong side of the referee.

From reading some posts here it seems a number of people have an issue with Itoje’s in your face attitude, and like I said, if you want to be that type of player then fine.

Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside and infringing, stretching the laws as far as he could, however, he rarely if ever got on the wrong side of the referee.

It isn’t a character flaw, it is the type of player needed as captain, you are very welcome to disagree.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What narrative ?

That everyone except England tried new players last year, and/ or had injuries to deal with.

I havent seen that on this thread.

Anyway, if you think that, then tell us what new players England experimented with ect....

From what I could see, you still had all the same coaches and a very settled team, I wouldn't argue against though, as I cannot really remember.

Starts for;

Will Stuart
Jonny Hill
Jack Willis
Ollie Lawrence
Max Malins

Bench;

Ben Earl
Beno Obano
George Martin

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Post by MichaelT Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What narrative ?

That everyone except England tried new players last year, and/ or had injuries to deal with.

I havent seen that on this thread.

Anyway, if you think that, then tell us what new players England experimented with ect....

From what I could see, you still had all the same coaches and a very settled team, I wouldn't argue against though, as I cannot really remember.

I did - Lawrence (4 caps), Malins (7), Earl (12), Willis (3 but would have been more), Hill - (8). Tom Dunn got a cap, Obano.

Brought in Proudfoot and Amor too, lost Wisemantel, another replacement couldn't come over because of Covid this year in Ryles.

Quite a few changes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:22 pm

Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

I don’t have a problem with Itoje’s penalties, I have read numerous remarks on his attitude, which is good if you want to be that player, however if you want to captain a team there is a certain diplomacy and curtesy that comes with the job.

Come on you're going to have to back that up.

What needs backing up, I am querying the wisdom of him being captain, if you look at Rassie’s analysis of referees for the RWC his intention was to never get on the wrong side of the referee.

From reading some posts here it seems a number of people have an issue with Itoje’s in your face attitude, and like I said, if you want to be that type of player then fine.

Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside and infringing, stretching the laws as far as he could, however, he rarely if ever got on the wrong side of the referee.

It isn’t a character flaw, it is the type of player needed as captain, you are very welcome to disagree.

You've read numerous remarks on his attitude...are you just saying you meant rival fans annoyed at him?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:23 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What narrative ?

That everyone except England tried new players last year, and/ or had injuries to deal with.

I havent seen that on this thread.

Anyway, if you think that, then tell us what new players England experimented with ect....

From what I could see, you still had all the same coaches and a very settled team, I wouldn't argue against though, as I cannot really remember.

Starts for;

Will Stuart
Jonny Hill
Jack Willis
Ollie Lawrence
Max Malins

Bench;

Ben Earl
Beno Obano
George Martin

In terms of coaches Amor wasn't with England and Olly Robinson came in. Proudfoot was isolating with covid and even Jones missed out due to close contacts.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:24 pm

OK fair enough, but nobody has said any different on this thread have they ?

2020 was very much a transitional year for Wales, after over a decade of another coaching team and players coming to the end of their tenure.

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Post by Old Man Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

I don’t have a problem with Itoje’s penalties, I have read numerous remarks on his attitude, which is good if you want to be that player, however if you want to captain a team there is a certain diplomacy and curtesy that comes with the job.

Come on you're going to have to back that up.

What needs backing up, I am querying the wisdom of him being captain, if you look at Rassie’s analysis of referees for the RWC his intention was to never get on the wrong side of the referee.

From reading some posts here it seems a number of people have an issue with Itoje’s in your face attitude, and like I said, if you want to be that type of player then fine.

Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside and infringing, stretching the laws as far as he could, however, he rarely if ever got on the wrong side of the referee.

It isn’t a character flaw, it is the type of player needed as captain, you are very welcome to disagree.

You've read numerous remarks on his attitude...are you just saying you meant rival fans annoyed at him?

I doubt opposition fans’ annoyance at his talent is relevant when talking about his on field personality. But like I said, you are welcome to disagree with me.

If you believe he is captaincy material, then just say why.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:28 pm

Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's quite funny actually. Fans from other nations seem to have more of an issue with Itoje's penalties than us England fans. I like the way he plays on the edge, I think being captain will only help this. Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside etc, but got away with a lot being captain.

I also like Itoje's in your face attitude, but I can see how other fans get annoyed with this.

I don’t have a problem with Itoje’s penalties, v, however if you want to captain a team there is a certain diplomacy and curtesy that comes with the job.

Come on you're going to have to back that up.

What needs backing up, I am querying the wisdom of him being captain, if you look at Rassie’s analysis of referees for the RWC his intention was to never get on the wrong side of the referee.

From reading some posts here it seems a number of people have an issue with Itoje’s in your face attitude, and like I said, if you want to be that type of player then fine.

Look at McCaw, he was constantly offside and infringing, stretching the laws as far as he could, however, he rarely if ever got on the wrong side of the referee.

It isn’t a character flaw, it is the type of player needed as captain, you are very welcome to disagree.

You've read numerous remarks on his attitude...are you just saying you meant rival fans annoyed at him?

I doubt opposition fans’ annoyance at his talent is relevant when talking about his on field personality. But like I said, you are welcome to disagree with me.

If you believe he is captaincy material, then just say why.

That's fine then bilt, so I go back to your original point of 'I have read numerous remarks on his attitude, which is good if you want to be that player'. What remarks and from who?

I believe he's captaincy material certainly. From the moment he came into sides he was leading from the front, vocal and organising. Similar to Curry they may not have had the captains armband (bar when Itoje won the u20 wc) but they've already been leaders on the pitch and the snippets you see of training.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:36 pm

Come on....

A player who is not picked to captain his club side and his international side is all of a sudden a candidate to captain the Lions ?

This is a massive stretch.

For me it has to be AWJ, who has captained Ospreys and Wales. Who is an OBE and holds the record for international caps with the most in the world, has won multiple 6N's and Grand Slam's/Triple crowns, has earned massive respect around the world, if not on here.

But nah, lets give it to a player who not only finds himself more often than not on the wrong side of the officials, but has no experience what so ever at captaining any side he has played for. Yep, he seems just the chap for the job. Laugh

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:OK fair enough, but nobody has said any different on this thread have they ?

2020 was very much a transitional year for Wales, after over a decade of another coaching team and players coming to the end of their tenure.

I'd argue every team is in transition the year or two after a world cup, very rarely if ever do teams carry on as they did before. Wales and Ireland did it during 2020 while England stuck before starting to twist in 2021.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Come on....

A player who is not picked to captain his club side and his international side is all of a sudden a candidate to captain the Lions ?

This is a massive stretch.

For me it has to be AWJ, who has captained Ospreys and Wales. Who is an OBE and holds the record for international caps with the most in the world, has won multiple 6N's and Grand Slam's/Triple crowns, has earned massive respect around the world, if not on here.

But nah, lets give it to a player who not only finds himself more often than not on the wrong side of the officials, but has no experience what so ever at captaining any side he has played for. Yep, he seems just the chap for the job. Laugh

Martin Johnson had little captaincy experience going into the 97 Lions tour if i'm remembering correctly; Dean Richards being Leicesters captain at the time.

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:40 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:In the distant past of November, a whole four months before the six nations Itoje was comprehensively outplaying James Ryan and Alun Wyn Jones. I'm assuming those games were too long ago to matter?

Miow!

Do you mean the ANC
Itoje was absolutely phenomenal against Ireland, in my mind he was MOTM. See if it's plain to see I will say it

Against Wales.... 7 loses on the bounce, 6 british Lions injured with rookies Shane Lewis-Hughes & Botham and Louis Rees-Zammit and I believe AWJ first couple of games back after what almost 6-12 months out. Itoje was nothing special

Ok?

You didn't take much notice when I made an equally valid point with regards to Itoje's performances during the six nations; poor refereeing, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Underhill, Marler, Tuilagi not available etc. If we're making excuses for one then excuses count for the other.

But it wasn't an equally valid point was it?
No poor reffing at all, in general all the referee decisions were spot on, if anything they were too lenient Itoje should have been yellowed against us but definitely against Wales

Come on Underhill is the only nailed on starter with that lot, maybe Tuilagi and that's stretching it or are you telling me Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Underhill will all play in the same game, any rookies?

England ANC v Wales and what maybe 3 were missing
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Kyle Sinckler
4 Maro Itoje
5 Joe Launchbury
6 Tom Curry
7 Sam Underhill
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ben Youngs
10 George Ford
11 Jonny May
12 Owen Farrell (Captain)
13 Henry Slade Tuilagi
14 Jonathan Joseph
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie
17 Ellis Genge
18 Will Stuart
19 Jonny Hill
20 Ben Earl
21 Jack Willis
22 Dan Robson
23 Anthony Watson

Don't want to sound like a broken record (so for my last time)
It's simple, it's always been an opinion that one of Itojes greatest strengths is his jackalling around the loose but the argument was he was always playing on the edge in England's in Jones mind but the likes of Toonie, Farrell and Pivac he gained the competitive advantage by playing "over the edge" aka infringing. 2017-2020 he got away with it, mainly because of his bludgeoning reputation superstar status (see Pivacs statement which kinda was endorsed by Toonie pre our 6Ns match v England), 2021 he didn't get away with it
Hug

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 1:40 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Come on....

A player who is not picked to captain his club side and his international side is all of a sudden a candidate to captain the Lions ?

This is a massive stretch.

For me it has to be AWJ, who has captained Ospreys and Wales. Who is an OBE and holds the record for international caps with the most in the world, has won multiple 6N's and Grand Slam's/Triple crowns, has earned massive respect around the world, if not on here.

But nah, lets give it to a player who not only finds himself more often than not on the wrong side of the officials, but has no experience what so ever at captaining any side he has played for. Yep, he seems just the chap for the job. Laugh

Martin Johnson had little captaincy experience going into the 97 Lions tour if i'm remembering correctly; Dean Richards being Leicesters captain at the time.

But at least he had a little, he had a bit more than none.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 15 Apr 2021, 2:08 pm

I'm not sure you have to be diplomatic, or even polite, to be a captain. Martin Johnson is a good example of someone who often got on the wrong side of referees. George Gregan captained the Wallabies for years, and one of his best-known moments on the pitch was taunting the All Blacks with "Four more years".

Even if you do find Itoje's on-pitch demeanour objectionable, it's hard to see how that can be a conclusive strike against his captaincy credentials when we have the recent example of Dylan Hartley.

Hartley was regarded by some, including England fans, as a dirty, ill-disciplined thug. He got regular bans at club level, and one of his red cards was specifically for abusing Wayne Barnes (though he still maintains he didn't mean to direct it at Barnes). Gatland thought he was such a loose cannon, it was worth trying to wind him up on the eve of a match. If anyone was likely to have an irreparable relationship with match officials, you'd think it would be Hartley. And yet, he was a successful England captain, leading his team to a record-equalling winning streak.

You could say the relationship between players and referees has changed over the last 10 years. Referees arguably have higher profiles, and cards can tip the balance against teams in ways you never used to see. Perhaps they need to buttering up more than usual. Still, you'd have to make that case, rather than just say good captains are always respectable people.

You could also make the argument that a Lions tour is a one-off, and referees have no previous relationship with the team, so it starts as something of a blank slate.

Personally, I'm not sure about Itoje as captain. I'd have no problems with him as starter. He showed his credentials for the Lions in New Zealand, and it makes no more sense now to talk about him being "found out" during this poor England Six Nations. than it would have done to say it of him in 2018, when England also finished 5th.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 15 Apr 2021, 2:21 pm

Itoje has captained many sides including Saracens and Co-captaining the U20 world cup winning side.....

However, having said all that, i wouldnt want him as captain...as much as i dont want AWJ in the side either. But thats just personal player preferance...we have better locks now to choose from...

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Apr 2021, 2:26 pm

I do not care what anybody says, you will never convince me that Itoje is captain material, never in a million years.

The difference between him and Martin Johnson is the fact that Martin Johnson was not only better, but a lot, lot more clever. MJ is one of my all time favourite players. He never gave away stupid pens, he was always very gentleman like towards the officials, and was a villain to the opposition. He knew exactly how to cajole the man in charge, he was never behaving as Itoje does.

The difference is, MJ was a lot more subtle, and savvy, which is a quality I like to see in a captain, and not only that, he led by example.

As good as Itoje is, he is nowhere near what MJ was in his prime. Not by a mile.

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Post by MichaelT Thu 15 Apr 2021, 2:39 pm

Has Itoje ever been red-carded? or even yellow-carded for dirty play such as tripping or dangerous tackles? Genuine question.

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Post by MichaelT Thu 15 Apr 2021, 2:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:OK fair enough, but nobody has said any different on this thread have they ?


Found it - its on the previous thread that was locked. Flyhalffactory - who also gave the untruth about AWJ missing 12 months of rugby after 2019 world cup.

I cant quote it as its locked but it says ANC was used by everyone except England as a developmental campaign. Tuesday 13th April 2:45pm. One of the last posts on the thread.

Knew i wasnt making it up.

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