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LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

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No 7&1/2
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 13 Apr 2021, 3:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The point to the first was your call back that I've watched and judged Jones by watching him on tv was it not, hence the comment on meeting him in person and that you can tell me he is always everywhere, never far from the action, a freak of nature. Even if not thats simply your judgement from watching him the same as me with the setpiece. don't now why a couple of people have a problem with that.

The second is not child like, it is a response to you on 'what ever you think of him on a forum, to put it bluntly, pointless.' fair enough all our opinions are pointless, its a rugby forum!

p.s. your first point on this was that you wanted to promote discussion, that retort seems to want to shut down discussion.

No, it's because you have not really given any decent reasons for AWJ not being in the test team, and the reasons you have given, you haven't backed them up.

I have given all good reasons why he should start and captain the side, and backed them up, along with other members on here.

All you are saying, is that he is unfit, when it's not really true, then you have said he is not strong in the scrum, which is not really true either, you have questioned his captaincy, when we have given loads of evidence from people within the game to show you otherwise. What next, his lineout work ?

If AWJ was this poor player you think he is, then why is he continually getting praise from his peers ?

Everything you have said about him, I have not read anywhere else, nor can I find any evidence that backs your claims up, in fact all I find are articles expressing the exact opposite what you are claiming.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:51 am

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started.  I think he’s weak in the scrum.

Fair enough you think that. I think he's been one of the strongest locks we've had there since Shaw retired. All compartative like, of course he's looked much better with Kruis rather Lawes next to him and with Marler or Genge ahead of him rather than Vunipola. We also have the titbits from the England and Saracens coaches saying in their opinion he is Englands best scrummaging lock. But fair enough if you think he depowers our scrum. Too much of a risk to start the Lions tour?

What time period were you thinking of re the ferociousness of Englands scrum btw?

I was only messing with you to be honest. I have no way of telling whether he’s a strong scrummaging lock or not.

Ah ok. Have to admit I was surprised at you saying it. Generally accepted that he's excellent there for club and country.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started.  I think he’s weak in the scrum.

Fair enough you think that. I think he's been one of the strongest locks we've had there since Shaw retired. All compartative like, of course he's looked much better with Kruis rather Lawes next to him and with Marler or Genge ahead of him rather than Vunipola. We also have the titbits from the England and Saracens coaches saying in their opinion he is Englands best scrummaging lock. But fair enough if you think he depowers our scrum. Too much of a risk to start the Lions tour?

What time period were you thinking of re the ferociousness of Englands scrum btw?

I was only messing with you to be honest. I have no way of telling whether he’s a strong scrummaging lock or not.

Ah ok. Have to admit I was surprised at you saying it. Generally accepted that he's excellent there for club and country.

Think you've missed my point, but hey ho thumbsup
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:54 am

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started.  I think he’s weak in the scrum.

Fair enough you think that. I think he's been one of the strongest locks we've had there since Shaw retired. All compartative like, of course he's looked much better with Kruis rather Lawes next to him and with Marler or Genge ahead of him rather than Vunipola. We also have the titbits from the England and Saracens coaches saying in their opinion he is Englands best scrummaging lock. But fair enough if you think he depowers our scrum. Too much of a risk to start the Lions tour?

What time period were you thinking of re the ferociousness of Englands scrum btw?

I was only messing with you to be honest. I have no way of telling whether he’s a strong scrummaging lock or not.

Ah ok. Have to admit I was surprised at you saying it. Generally accepted that he's excellent there for club and country.

Think you've missed my point, but hey ho thumbsup

Oh, don't worry, he hasn't missed it, he has just decided to to accept it, as it goes against his narrative. Laugh

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Post by BamBam Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:55 am

While we're on the topic of missing things, any thoughts on the video of Itoje being penalised against Wales, Dowlais? Do you accept that he wasn't "very irate"?

Here's the video again, just to save you going back and looking for it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKGIAehU40&t=120s


Last edited by BamBam on Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by lostinwales Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:55 am

The AWJ thing has been revisited many times on this forum as would be expected given how long he's been around.

You always get some players who are very important to their own teams and rated very highly by their fans but not necessarily by other teams. AWJ is that kind of player, like Mike Brown used to be for England, or, maybe, Anthony Foley was for Ireland.

The simple fact is that had he been English he would never have had the kind of career he's had with Wales, and I'd dare say it is similar for the other home nations. It's not even a question of was he good enough. It is more a question of having more competition before he developed into the player he has become.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:56 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The point to the first was your call back that I've watched and judged Jones by watching him on tv was it not, hence the comment on meeting him in person and that you can tell me he is always everywhere, never far from the action, a freak of nature. Even if not thats simply your judgement from watching him the same as me with the setpiece. don't now why a couple of people have a problem with that.

The second is not child like, it is a response to you on 'what ever you think of him on a forum, to put it bluntly, pointless.' fair enough all our opinions are pointless, its a rugby forum!

p.s. your first point on this was that you wanted to promote discussion, that retort seems to want to shut down discussion.

No, it's because you have not really given any decent reasons for AWJ not being in the test team, and the reasons you have given, you haven't backed them up.

I have given all good reasons why he should start and captain the side, and backed them up, along with other members on here.

All you are saying, is that he is unfit, when it's not really true, then you have said he is not strong in the scrum, which is not really true either, you have questioned his captaincy, when we have given loads of evidence from people within the game to show you otherwise. What next, his lineout work ?

If AWJ was this poor player you think he is, then why is he continually getting praise from his peers ?

Everything you have said about him, I have not read anywhere else, nor can I find any evidence that backs your claims up, in fact all I find are articles expressing the exact opposite what you are claiming.

You're moving into hyperbole again LD. I've given my reasons why I'd go with others and you've dismissed them, fair enough as you watch Jones alot and like what he brings. Other people think that we'd be better starting different locks. Where have I said Jones is a poor player? If I've ever said that I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong. I suspect you won't be able to however. And again fair enough you want Jones alongside Itoje for the tests, some people will.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 11:58 am

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Itoje is weak in the scrum.

Yikes, see why you stick to stats.

England used to have a ferocious scrum that you would really fear coming up against. It seems depowered somewhat since Itoje started.  I think he’s weak in the scrum.

Fair enough you think that. I think he's been one of the strongest locks we've had there since Shaw retired. All compartative like, of course he's looked much better with Kruis rather Lawes next to him and with Marler or Genge ahead of him rather than Vunipola. We also have the titbits from the England and Saracens coaches saying in their opinion he is Englands best scrummaging lock. But fair enough if you think he depowers our scrum. Too much of a risk to start the Lions tour?

What time period were you thinking of re the ferociousness of Englands scrum btw?

I was only messing with you to be honest. I have no way of telling whether he’s a strong scrummaging lock or not.

Ah ok. Have to admit I was surprised at you saying it. Generally accepted that he's excellent there for club and country.

Think you've missed my point, but hey ho thumbsup

I understand your point, you don't think you can tell the strength of scrummaging of locks and hooker and so you don't want anyone else to consider that area.

And to be fair despite LD wanting to discuss his merits as above we've gone through it a few times, there are differing opinions of his strengths and weaknesses and they won't change until we see some warm ups and tests. On that I think I'll just leave the Jones narrative.

Does anyone have any bets on the players not in the international fold on the standby list of 50; or have Walesonline got them correct?


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Apr 2021, 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 12:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I don't rate him high enough to be in the match day squad. I like your line of '148 caps, 5 6N trophies, 3 Grand Slams, 9 Lions test caps and a 6N Player of the Championship Award' but that to me isn't relevant in discussions on who makes up that 1st test. Let him be a leader in that group.

That's one of my bugbears, players past glories being brought up when it's current form/ability that needs to be judged. If past glories were any kind of benchmark they'd be luring BOD out of retirement.
AWJ is a great player, he's still got great form, he's a natural leader and probably the man for tour captain but is he the best man to take on the Saffers? No, there are a few players that have showed better form and are quite simply the right players to choose ahead of him. I'd have Itoje, Ryan, Bierne (although I prefer him in the back row), Henderson and Kruis all ahead of him and there are others. There's enough on-field leadership amongst that bunch to make up for the loss of his and more on-field presence.

Well, this is all we were hearing when Gatland dropped BOD during the Australia tour. Strange how the wind changes when the agenda doesn't suit. OK

You didn't hear it from me.
I've never listed someone's past glories trying to relate them to current form/ability, not an arguement I like to use.

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Post by BamBam Mon 26 Apr 2021, 12:09 pm

Who are the 50 named 7.5? I tried to click through to the website but ad blocker doesn't like it

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 12:36 pm

BamBam wrote:Who are the 50 named 7.5? I tried to click through to the website but ad blocker doesn't like it

They've only named 11 non current internationals (stretch that a bit when you see the names though!). They went with Sam Simmonds, Hadleigh Parkes, Zebo, Nowell, Tuilagi, Webb, Care, Cooney, Marler, Kruis and Underhill.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Apr 2021, 12:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The point to the first was your call back that I've watched and judged Jones by watching him on tv was it not, hence the comment on meeting him in person and that you can tell me he is always everywhere, never far from the action, a freak of nature. Even if not thats simply your judgement from watching him the same as me with the setpiece. don't now why a couple of people have a problem with that.

The second is not child like, it is a response to you on 'what ever you think of him on a forum, to put it bluntly, pointless.' fair enough all our opinions are pointless, its a rugby forum!

p.s. your first point on this was that you wanted to promote discussion, that retort seems to want to shut down discussion.

No, it's because you have not really given any decent reasons for AWJ not being in the test team, and the reasons you have given, you haven't backed them up.

I have given all good reasons why he should start and captain the side, and backed them up, along with other members on here.

All you are saying, is that he is unfit, when it's not really true, then you have said he is not strong in the scrum, which is not really true either, you have questioned his captaincy, when we have given loads of evidence from people within the game to show you otherwise. What next, his lineout work ?

If AWJ was this poor player you think he is, then why is he continually getting praise from his peers ?

Everything you have said about him, I have not read anywhere else, nor can I find any evidence that backs your claims up, in fact all I find are articles expressing the exact opposite what you are claiming.

You're moving into hyperbole again LD. I've given my reasons why I'd go with others and you've dismissed them, fair enough as you watch Jones alot and like what he brings. Other people think that we'd be better starting different locks. Where have I said Jones is a poor player? If I've ever said that I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong. I suspect you won't be able to however. And again fair enough you want Jones alongside Itoje for the tests, some people will.


I havent dismissed anything though, I have just asked you to back your points up which you cannot, or won't. If you can add more to your debate, rather than what you think, or what you saw on the tele, then perhaps I can concede.

If anything, it's you who has dismissed swathes of evidence put onto this debate to disprove what you are saying, I have put numerous links with professionals talking about AWJ, which you have put down to conjecture.

Yet Sam Warburton says Itoje should be captain, and you are all over it, but when I pointed out that he also said in the same article that Biggar should start at 10 you dismissed it. Can you see where I'm going with this ? Or are we going to have more side stepping and swerving from you ?

If I am being honest, on captaincy alone, there is no one with a better CV to be captain that AWJ, and if he starts, then it's because he deserves to, because he is deemed the best in his position by the people in charge.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 26 Apr 2021, 12:58 pm

I can't add more to it than what I think LD and don't see the point hence I'm moving on. So this is an official side step, as I've said I'll make my own mind and if I happen to agree on someones point I'll say so even if I don't agree on other points.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Apr 2021, 1:02 pm

English clubs are holding crunch meetings on player release for the Lions:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/english-clubs-to-hold-crunch-meeting-over-player-release-for-lions-training-camp-and-japan-match/

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Post by The Oracle Mon 26 Apr 2021, 1:10 pm

Seems silly to have the Japan game on the same day as the English Prem final. Seems no good reason to have done that.
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Post by tigertattie Mon 26 Apr 2021, 3:20 pm

The Oracle wrote:Seems silly to have the Japan game on the same day as the English Prem final. Seems no good reason to have done that.


It's madness

Logically, a good chuck of players for the lions (for all nations excpet Ireland) would be playing the the prem final so its bonkers to schedule things like this. I could have understood it if the english prem final had been changed last minute due to covid but this has been pencilled in for ages and the Lions bigwigs have just taken their eye right off the ball!
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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 26 Apr 2021, 4:45 pm

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/british-irish-lions-tour/british-irish-lions-bookies-pick-their-starting-line-up-to-face-springboks/

Lions XV according to the odds

15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Jonny May, 13 Robbie Henshaw, 12 Jonathan Davies, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Wyn Jones

I wouldn't be unhappy with that starting XV

Although I would tweek
15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Anthony Watson, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Robbie Henshaw, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Wyn Jones
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 26 Apr 2021, 4:50 pm

The big one for me is Cowan-Dickie, he went under the radar somewhat because he was part of a failing pack but he was quietly very good during the six nations. Nailed every throw and is probably the best scrummaging hooker in the northern hemisphere, carries well, tackles hard and is pretty swift too.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 26 Apr 2021, 9:10 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/british-irish-lions-tour/british-irish-lions-bookies-pick-their-starting-line-up-to-face-springboks/

Lions XV according to the odds

15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Jonny May, 13 Robbie Henshaw, 12 Jonathan Davies, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Wyn Jones

I wouldn't be unhappy with that starting XV

Although I would tweek
15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Anthony Watson, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Robbie Henshaw, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Wyn Jones

Watching Jonathan Davies on the weekend, I'd be pretty unhappy with that selection. It's a real shame for North as it looks like he had a knee injury.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 26 Apr 2021, 9:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:https://www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/british-irish-lions-tour/british-irish-lions-bookies-pick-their-starting-line-up-to-face-springboks/

Lions XV according to the odds

15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Jonny May, 13 Robbie Henshaw, 12 Jonathan Davies, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Wyn Jones

I wouldn't be unhappy with that starting XV

Although I would tweek
15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Anthony Watson, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Robbie Henshaw, 11 Josh Adams, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Wyn Jones

Watching Jonathan Davies on the weekend, I'd be pretty unhappy with that selection. It's a real shame for North as it looks like he had a knee injury.

I didn't see the Scarlets v Dragons.....Mikey but sounded like a great win for the Gwent boys. Awful news about North, when will we know the MO?
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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 26 Apr 2021, 9:29 pm

Yeah JD2 didn't look good at all. Got skinned and you wouldn't know he was there when Scarlets were attacking. I'm not sure about North but I think we'll know early this week. I could see it was a knee injury in the replay, he had to be helped off and afterwards was on crutches. As a Wales fan it's very concerning, given how great he's become at 13.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 26 Apr 2021, 9:46 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah JD2 didn't look good at all. Got skinned and you wouldn't know he was there when Scarlets were attacking. I'm not sure about North but I think we'll know early this week. I could see it was a knee injury in the replay, he had to be helped off and afterwards was on crutches. As a Wales fan it's very concerning, given how great he's become at 13.

That's bad news for the Lions North potentially out, Foxy off form, Tuilagi Injured.......that's our 1st three out

Could be

13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
10 Sexton
09 Murray

OC bolters? Harris?, Daly?
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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 26 Apr 2021, 10:17 pm

Manu should be back in action for Sale soon. Obviously how long he stays fit after that is anyone's guess, based on previous just for the Lions tour.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 26 Apr 2021, 10:34 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Manu should be back in action for Sale soon. Obviously how long he stays fit after that is anyone's guess, based on previous just for the Lions tour.

Lions Squad selection in 9 days time on 6 May, I don't think Sale are playing this weekend. Gats has a history for selecting injured players but surely as he's been out since what last September, he would be on standby only?

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Post by profitius Mon 26 Apr 2021, 10:40 pm

My lions team so far would be something like the following.

15. Hogg
14. Zammit
13. Tuilagi
12. Slade
11. Van der Merwe
10. Sexton
9.
8.
7. Watson
6. Beirne
5. Henderson
4. Itoje
3. Furlong
2. Owens
1. Sutherland

16. George
17. Marler
18. Fagerson
19. AW Jones
20. Curry
21. ?
22. Farrell
23. North
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:24 am

I do not want to take a ban, so I will not post what I was told on here word for word, but I have heard last night, from somebody who was quite prominent from within the WRU, and it was only a passing conversation, and he mentioned Itoje was seriously being considered for the captaincy because of where the Lions were going tour and to support a prominent movement that is going on in the world at the moment.

Please do not tar and feather me for this, PM if you like, but I am only the messenger. If this place were more easy going I would say more.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:31 am

I think it would be a good move myself, sport can and should be used for good, Itoje would be in the running for captaincy anyway.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:31 am

The whole injury question is very interesting.

There are so few games there just isn't time to have anyone carrying an injury as the combinations need the maximum amount of game time to gel. In the absence of a better choice, North probably would be my first choice starting 13 but I wouldn't pick an 80% fit North over a 100% fit Slade, Daly or even Huw Jones.

Tualagi seems likely to continue to be a huge distraction. He is a game breaker but if we're being honest, taking him would seem to be a huge risk. Achilles injuries are unstable and he will have very little contact training until he gets thrown into a full test match again. A good example of how a coach may make exceptions for players that they love. We already know that Gats favours having standby lists.
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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:I do not want to take a ban, so I will not post what I was told on here word for word, but I have heard last night, from somebody who was quite prominent from within the WRU, and it was only a passing conversation, and he mentioned Itoje was seriously being considered for the captaincy because of where the Lions were going tour and to support a prominent movement that is going on in the world at the moment.

Please do not tar and feather me for this, PM if you like, but I am only the messenger. If this place were more easy going I would say more.

Why on earth would / should you get a ban for discussing something to do with rugby?

I am 100% behind any discrimination movement but to choose a player because of their colour to further a cause will have a huge detrimental effect, that in itself is discriminative. You select a player because he/she is the best person for the job not because it will be a token gesture. It's like saying should we have one token Scot to appease us guys up North



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Post by TJ Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:51 am

Dowlais - I suspect that it trouble making rumourmongering you heard - because its a gesture no longer needed. SA have a black captain

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:56 am

TJ wrote:Dowlais - I suspect that it trouble making rumourmongering you heard - because its a gesture no longer needed.  SA have a black captain

OK

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:58 am

Soul Requiem wrote:The big one for me is Cowan-Dickie, he went under the radar somewhat because he was part of a failing pack but he was quietly very good during the six nations. Nailed every throw and is probably the best scrummaging hooker in the northern hemisphere, carries well, tackles hard and is pretty swift too.

I like LCD (Exeter), he is (in my opinion) a better overall player than George (Saracens)

England lost 2 lineouts against us, I pretty sure (but not certain) Johnny Gray nicked one against Itoje late in game.

As for the best scrummaging hooker is based on evidence or just your opinion

In my day a hooker in the scrum is the binder (hooks and holds up the props) and a hooker was gauged by the amount of scrum pens against the team. In the 6NS scrum pens were

2 Ire
6 Fra / Wal
8 Scot
10 Eng
12 Ita

Not sure how many of those are attributed to George or LCD but they played roughly 50% each


Last edited by flyhalffactory on Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Poorfour Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:00 am

WOL was reporting that Gatland has written to 50 players about availability, including some who weren’t involved in the 6 Nations, and the process to whittle that down to 36 starts next week.

Care was seen as the most likely non-6N recipient of a letter, though I would bet good money that Marler got one too and that he will travel if he makes himself available.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:46 am

Hope they're already well on the way to whittling that down, they've only got 9 or so days left! Hope Marler says yes.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:46 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The big one for me is Cowan-Dickie, he went under the radar somewhat because he was part of a failing pack but he was quietly very good during the six nations. Nailed every throw and is probably the best scrummaging hooker in the northern hemisphere, carries well, tackles hard and is pretty swift too.

I like LCD (Exeter), he is (in my opinion) a better overall player than George (Saracens)

England lost 2 lineouts against us, I pretty sure (but not certain) Johnny Gray nicked one against Itoje late in game.

As for the best scrummaging hooker is based on evidence or just your opinion

In my day a hooker in the scrum is the binder (hooks and holds up the props) and a hooker was gauged by the amount of scrum pens against the team. In the 6NS scrum pens were

2 Ire
6 Fra / Wal
8 Scot
10 Eng
12 Ita

Not sure how many of those are attributed to George or LCD but they played roughly 50% each

The six nations stats show LCD with 21/21, the first time any hooker has thrown in more than 20 times with a 100% success. Jamie George had his reputation enhanced by not being selected over Hartley.

I'd need a breakdown of the 10 scrum penalties to properly gauge things; Genge, Sinckler and in particular Vunipola were poor at various times throughout the six nations. The latter had one of his very bad days against Ireland for instance.

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Post by BigGee Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:54 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I do not want to take a ban, so I will not post what I was told on here word for word, but I have heard last night, from somebody who was quite prominent from within the WRU, and it was only a passing conversation, and he mentioned Itoje was seriously being considered for the captaincy because of where the Lions were going tour and to support a prominent movement that is going on in the world at the moment.

Please do not tar and feather me for this, PM if you like, but I am only the messenger. If this place were more easy going I would say more.

Why on earth would / should you get a ban for discussing something to do with rugby?

I am 100% behind any discrimination movement but to choose a player because of their colour to further a cause will have a huge detrimental effect, that in itself is discriminative. You select a player because he/she is the best person for the job not because it will be a token gesture. It's like saying should we have one token Scot to appease us guys up North




Itoje will be being considered as captain as he is a very suitable captain with a very strong case.

That's all.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope they're already well on the way to whittling that down, they've only got 9 or so days left! Hope Marler says yes.

I doubt it. He didn't want to play in the Six Nations as it meant being away from his family for an extended period. He's had a little one arrive in the last 12 months if I remember rightly and has three children at home. He's admitted to depression previously which I think was attributed to the pressure he was feeling. I can see him opting for a summer holiday with the family and I can't blame him for that.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:11 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The big one for me is Cowan-Dickie, he went under the radar somewhat because he was part of a failing pack but he was quietly very good during the six nations. Nailed every throw and is probably the best scrummaging hooker in the northern hemisphere, carries well, tackles hard and is pretty swift too.

I like LCD (Exeter), he is (in my opinion) a better overall player than George (Saracens)

England lost 2 lineouts against us, I pretty sure (but not certain) Johnny Gray nicked one against Itoje late in game.

As for the best scrummaging hooker is based on evidence or just your opinion

In my day a hooker in the scrum is the binder (hooks and holds up the props) and a hooker was gauged by the amount of scrum pens against the team. In the 6NS scrum pens were

2 Ire
6 Fra / Wal
8 Scot
10 Eng
12 Ita

Not sure how many of those are attributed to George or LCD but they played roughly 50% each

The six nations stats show LCD with 21/21, the first time any hooker has thrown in more than 20 times with a 100% success. Jamie George had his reputation enhanced by not being selected over Hartley.

I'd need a breakdown of the 10 scrum penalties to properly gauge things; Genge, Sinckler and in particular Vunipola were poor at various times throughout the six nations. The latter had one of his very bad days against Ireland for instance.

21/21 is excellent but I can't find that stat on the 6Ns web site. I can find LCD individually
https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/player?PlayGuid=LC148807&TeamId=125

Send us the link
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Post by BamBam Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:12 am

The problem with that kind of rumour is that now if Itoje is selected as captain you'll have the morons pointing to said rumour with "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, IT'S JUST A POLITICAL DECISION"

(not referring to anyone on here, for the avoidance of doubt)

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:29 am

BamBam wrote:The problem with that kind of rumour is that now if Itoje is selected as captain you'll have the morons pointing to said rumour with "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, IT'S JUST A POLITICAL DECISION"

(not referring to anyone on here, for the avoidance of doubt)

If he was picked for captain, I would not allude to that. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:31 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope they're already well on the way to whittling that down, they've only got 9 or so days left! Hope Marler says yes.

I doubt it. He didn't want to play in the Six Nations as it meant being away from his family for an extended period. He's had a little one arrive in the last 12 months if I remember rightly and has three children at home. He's admitted to depression previously which I think was attributed to the pressure he was feeling. I can see him opting for a summer holiday with the family and I can't blame him for that.

Yup. I can fully back a decision like that. Playing perspective he's quality as well as his behind the scenes interviews.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:34 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The big one for me is Cowan-Dickie, he went under the radar somewhat because he was part of a failing pack but he was quietly very good during the six nations. Nailed every throw and is probably the best scrummaging hooker in the northern hemisphere, carries well, tackles hard and is pretty swift too.

I like LCD (Exeter), he is (in my opinion) a better overall player than George (Saracens)

England lost 2 lineouts against us, I pretty sure (but not certain) Johnny Gray nicked one against Itoje late in game.

As for the best scrummaging hooker is based on evidence or just your opinion

In my day a hooker in the scrum is the binder (hooks and holds up the props) and a hooker was gauged by the amount of scrum pens against the team. In the 6NS scrum pens were

2 Ire
6 Fra / Wal
8 Scot
10 Eng
12 Ita

Not sure how many of those are attributed to George or LCD but they played roughly 50% each

The six nations stats show LCD with 21/21, the first time any hooker has thrown in more than 20 times with a 100% success. Jamie George had his reputation enhanced by not being selected over Hartley.

I'd need a breakdown of the 10 scrum penalties to properly gauge things; Genge, Sinckler and in particular Vunipola were poor at various times throughout the six nations. The latter had one of his very bad days against Ireland for instance.

21/21 is excellent but I can't find that stat on the 6Ns web site. I can find LCD individually
https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/player?PlayGuid=LC148807&TeamId=125

Send us the link

Just checked Gray nicked the lineout (knew it was end of either half!) just about halftime so that would be down to George
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:35 am

BamBam wrote:The problem with that kind of rumour is that now if Itoje is selected as captain you'll have the morons pointing to said rumour with "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, IT'S JUST A POLITICAL DECISION"

(not referring to anyone on here, for the avoidance of doubt)

There will always be people of that ilk. Class player, class leader. If he gets handed the captains armband at any point I think I'm right in saying he'll be the first black captain of the Lions? I think that's worthy the attention it would receive but some of that will be the general (depressing) pushback anything relating to race has at the moment.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:36 am

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:The problem with that kind of rumour is that now if Itoje is selected as captain you'll have the morons pointing to said rumour with "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, IT'S JUST A POLITICAL DECISION"

(not referring to anyone on here, for the avoidance of doubt)

If he was picked for captain, I would not allude to that. OK

I'd second that LD, Itoje quality player and I'd have no problem him being captain Hug
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Post by BamBam Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:39 am

I did say I'm not referring to anyone on here Laugh

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Post by Poorfour Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:45 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope they're already well on the way to whittling that down, they've only got 9 or so days left! Hope Marler says yes.

I doubt it. He didn't want to play in the Six Nations as it meant being away from his family for an extended period. He's had a little one arrive in the last 12 months if I remember rightly and has three children at home. He's admitted to depression previously which I think was attributed to the pressure he was feeling. I can see him opting for a summer holiday with the family and I can't blame him for that.

I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. He is in a position where he can pick and choose to some degree - I don't think any of the other potential Lions looseheads looked like a shoo-in off the back of the 6N. It's very possible that mentally he and Daisy were up for him having one period away this year (especially given it's likely his last shot at the Lions) but not two, as he dropped out of the England camp when he realised it would mean being isolated for another 2 months.

But with Marler, who knows?
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:46 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
21/21 is excellent but I can't find that stat on the 6Ns web site. I can find LCD individually
https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/player?PlayGuid=LC148807&TeamId=125

Send us the link

Trawled through my old comments and had it down as 22/22, was on the Opta Johnny twitter page but it's since disappeared so assuming it must be incorrect. There are premiership stats that have him consistently over 95%, outperforming Hartley in that regard all the back in 2018.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 27 Apr 2021, 11:57 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56898985

Geech & Telfer's slant on the 1st XV.
Some interesting comments
Geech wrote:McGeechan believes Russell is ready to step up into the rarefied atmosphere of a Lions Test series and thrive.
"Finn has matured," he said. "He sees things so quickly. He's the most varied attacking kicker that we've got in the northern hemisphere. He's brave, he makes his tackles, and if there's any daylight at all he will find it."
Telfer wrote:"Itoje has that extra bit about him."
Both Telfer and McGeechan are united in their admiration for the Welsh captain, and both believe he should lead the Lions this summer.
Geech wrote:"He is the natural captain." "I think on and off the field he would be by some distance the natural leader that you would want there."

It's looking more and like some 6 or 7 nailed on spots from all the "experts"

Geech & Telfer's 1st XV.
15 Hogg
14 Watson
11 Williams

10 Russell
9 Murray

8 Faletau
7 Curry
6 Beirne

5 AWJ (C)
4 Itoje


3 Furlong
2 Owens
1 Jones
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 27 Apr 2021, 12:43 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:The problem with that kind of rumour is that now if Itoje is selected as captain you'll have the morons pointing to said rumour with "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, IT'S JUST A POLITICAL DECISION"

(not referring to anyone on here, for the avoidance of doubt)

If he was picked for captain, I would not allude to that. OK

I'd second that LD, Itoje quality player and I'd have no problem him being captain Hug

I agree, I think he would be a good captain. He's a class player and would lead by example, but go a bit easy on the penalties Very Happy.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 27 Apr 2021, 1:33 pm

From the BBC re player release in England:

'Premiership players from clubs not involved in the final will be released for the British and Irish Lions' warm-up game against Japan on 26 June.

The match at Murrayfield is on the same day as the Premiership final and the league said that in future it would not release players until after that match.

Earlier in April, Lions head coach Warren Gatland said some players could "miss out" on selection if they were not released by the league.

Gatland names his tour squad on 6 May.

The regular Premiership season finishes on 12 June, with semi-finals the following weekend, and players not involved in those play-offs will also be free for Lions training camps before the Japan game.

The Lions warm-up match falls outside the agreed World Rugby window for the release of international players and a Premiership Rugby spokesperson said they "encourage all parties in rugby to work more closely to avoid situations like this happening in the future".

"This discussion was never just about money," the spokesperson continued.

"Premiership clubs are at the very heart of English rugby - helping to nurture the pipeline of talent which supports the international game and future Lions tours.

"It is essential that we are properly consulted - and our position respected - when fixtures are scheduled which impact the domestic season."

Lions chairman Jason Leonard said: "We are very grateful to Premiership Rugby and Pro14 for the release of players after they have concluded their domestic commitments."

The tour is set to be played in South Africa behind closed doors or with limited local support, with the first Test scheduled for Saturday, 24 July.

BBC rugby union correspondent Chris Jones

This dispute had threatened to turn the tour into a farce, and would have had a major bearing on Warren Gatland's selection if not resolved, so the fact an agreement has been reached is a relief for Lions fans, not to mention the players involved.

However while stressing this spat has not just been about money, the clubs ominously say they won't be releasing any players until after the Premiership final in the future.

Unless there is better communication and a firmer agreement over release dates and compensation payments, this row will happen all over again in four years' time.'

Still leaves the same questions for Gatland given his squad is next week.

Tuilagi out for another 5 weeks as well. Gatland has form in picking still injured players so still expect him to be picked.

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