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LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 13 Apr 2021, 3:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

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Post by Sharkey06 Sat 01 May 2021, 12:10 am

Gatland picked Daly as a winger and that seems to suit his skill set/intelligence. I could see him picking Daly as a winger/utility player who can player anywhere from 10 to 15. Add in the big boot then you have a useful option.

i also think Watson will go as a 7 because gatland has no choice but to pick him, but he will not get near the test side unless there are lots of injuries - not a Gatland player and doesn't play the gameplan Gatland will want. That is no criticism of watson, it is just a case of Gatland having a preference.

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Post by TJ Sat 01 May 2021, 6:03 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If Gatland wanted a cannon of a boot that could do long range kicking from a fullback actually in form then his coaches watching Freddie Steward tonight could point him in the right direction. The physicality of the Boks wouldn't be an issue but that would be an outrageous bolter, maybe for the next tour.

Stuart HOgg is as far as you need look for a FB with a huge boot.

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Post by TJ Sat 01 May 2021, 6:06 am

I guess all Lions selections are like this but some positions - like front and second row row we have plenty of contenders but no real standouts. some positions like centres and SH we are really scratching around for the right people and some like FH or Wing its about what style you want the lions to play who you choose.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 9:06 am

Sharkey06 wrote:Gatland picked Daly as a winger and that seems to suit his skill set/intelligence.  I could see him picking Daly as a winger/utility player who can player anywhere from 10 to 15.  Add in the big boot then you have a useful option.

i also think Watson will go as a 7 because gatland has no choice but to pick him, but he will not get near the test side unless there are lots of injuries - not a Gatland player and doesn't play the gameplan Gatland will want.  That is no criticism of watson, it is just a case of Gatland having a preference.

Really don’t know what you mean by this?  What type of 7 is a Gatland sort of 7?  Because for 11 years with Wales he didn’t pick monster 7s.  They were all generally smaller compared to the sort of backrowers put out by SA, etc.  Martyn Williams, Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric - not the biggest of guys.  Warburton perhaps the biggest of the 3 but he had to really work to put on muscle.  He’s the size of a centre normally!  But he wasn’t a player to smash players.  He was a good tackler and jackaller.  Williams and Tipuric were link men who wouldn’t be lost as backs.  Again, really not the sort to be running through people.  They were great in open play and in the tackle area though.  So in Watson I see a player who is quick, good link man, great in the tackle and jackalling as a 7 should, but can also add a bit more ‘smash’ than these previous welsh 7s if need be.  So I can’t see how he isn’t a Gatland type of 7!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 7:59 pm

Before the Bath game kicks off how likely is Mercer to lay a marker down? The talk for the lions bolter has been simmonds. I think like me a few of the England fans want Dombrandt for the summer tour, perhaps as we all know Mercer will not be available next season. Hes been electric for the last month and a half, faletau forced to 6.

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Post by broadlandboy Sat 01 May 2021, 8:05 pm

No Ben Youngs, Family Reasons but happy this time. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9533263/England-scrum-half-Ben-Youngs-PULLS-summers-Lions-tour-South-Africa.html

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Post by Cyril Sat 01 May 2021, 8:45 pm

I wouldn’t pick Russell because he’s poison and likely to cause problems in the group abroad. Hogg would worry me too. Both are likely to get cards or fall out if they don’t get their own way like they do in Scotland.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 01 May 2021, 8:47 pm

broadlandboy wrote:No Ben Youngs, Family Reasons but happy this time. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9533263/England-scrum-half-Ben-Youngs-PULLS-summers-Lions-tour-South-Africa.html

Yeah understandable. Two kids and a heavily pregnant wife isn't the time to travel to South Africa in a global pandemic. I agree it's nice that it's good news this time. I also think a summer off and full pre season will be good for him, he'll certainly need to keep playing well for Tigers as young JVP is starting to look pretty handy.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 8:56 pm

Cyril wrote:I wouldn’t pick Russell because he’s poison and likely to cause problems in the group abroad. Hogg would worry me too. Both are likely to get cards or fall out if they don’t get their own way like they do in Scotland.

Really? Makes about as much sense to me that as the talk about the angry black man Itoje.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 8:57 pm

Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 01 May 2021, 8:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Mercer's form has been exceptional recently. To be fair Falatau nearly always looks mediocre for Bath and then turns up on international duty. The only way Falatau won't be in the squad is injury, the only question is whether he'll start the tests or not.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 8:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 9:07 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 9:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable. But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles? Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 9:20 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable.  But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles?  Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!

Ah. Yeah fair enough point. More eye catching contributions are available at 8 rather than  6 i suppose. I'm betting at 56 min it'll be mercer ending with the potm though.

Of course thinking through that logically you're presumably never happy with any potm.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 9:59 pm

Willelse got the award in the end think as they went with the winning team. Bath would be kicking themselves after that. Just shows what a strong aerial lineout defence can do though. Seems popular to just defend the maul on the ground these days bot Mont. Destroyed Bath there.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 10:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable.  But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles?  Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!

Ah. Yeah fair enough point. More eye catching contributions are available at 8 rather than  6 i suppose. I'm betting at 56 min it'll be mercer ending with the potm though.

Of course thinking through that logically you're presumably never happy with any potm.

Don’t mind POTM. It’s always subjective and each player contributes different things. But one player can stand out I guess. But that’s not what we’re saying here - outclassing in a sporting sense usually means beating, or getting the better of, or the upper hand....... in relation to the opposition player/team But these two are on the same side. And if you’re talking about it in the context of Lion selection then again they’re playing different positions so not easy to compare contributions. Is Mercer outclassing Cokanasiga too?!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 10:08 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable.  But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles?  Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!

Ah. Yeah fair enough point. More eye catching contributions are available at 8 rather than  6 i suppose. I'm betting at 56 min it'll be mercer ending with the potm though.

Of course thinking through that logically you're presumably never happy with any potm.

Don’t mind POTM.  It’s always subjective and each player contributes different things.  But one player can stand out I guess.  But that’s not what we’re saying here - outclassing in a sporting sense usually means beating, or getting the better of, or the upper hand....... in relation to the opposition player/team  But these two are on the same side.  And if you’re talking about it in the context of Lion selection then again they’re playing different positions so not easy to compare contributions. Is Mercer outclassing Cokanasiga too?!

Outclassing means to be performing much better than. So yes subjective as you say but players are able to outclass players in their own team. Yes over the last 6 weeks or so Mercer has been head and shoulders Baths best player.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 10:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable.  But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles?  Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!

Ah. Yeah fair enough point. More eye catching contributions are available at 8 rather than  6 i suppose. I'm betting at 56 min it'll be mercer ending with the potm though.

Of course thinking through that logically you're presumably never happy with any potm.

Don’t mind POTM.  It’s always subjective and each player contributes different things.  But one player can stand out I guess.  But that’s not what we’re saying here - outclassing in a sporting sense usually means beating, or getting the better of, or the upper hand....... in relation to the opposition player/team  But these two are on the same side.  And if you’re talking about it in the context of Lion selection then again they’re playing different positions so not easy to compare contributions. Is Mercer outclassing Cokanasiga too?!

Outclassing means to be performing much better than. So yes subjective as you say but players are able to outclass players in their own team. Yes over the last 6 weeks or so Mercer has been head and shoulders Baths best player.


Hmmm. Not sure I agree! I think Spencer outclassed Mercer because he kicked better Wink
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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 01 May 2021, 10:20 pm

You keep bringing up examples of completely different positions. The role of 6 and 8 aren't hugely different.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 01 May 2021, 10:22 pm

Mont were often driving through the blindside, amazing comments to allude to Mercer outperforming Faletau!. Agree Mercer has played well enough to have been selected ahead of Billy V, shocked but not surprised Eddie keeps ignoring Simmonds & Mercer. Was looking forward to seeing if Watson could show why he's picked at FB for Bath but on the wing for England, also was looking for a standout performance from Underhill. Not sure either did enough to warrant a plane seat

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 10:27 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable.  But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles?  Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!

Ah. Yeah fair enough point. More eye catching contributions are available at 8 rather than  6 i suppose. I'm betting at 56 min it'll be mercer ending with the potm though.

Of course thinking through that logically you're presumably never happy with any potm.

Don’t mind POTM.  It’s always subjective and each player contributes different things.  But one player can stand out I guess.  But that’s not what we’re saying here - outclassing in a sporting sense usually means beating, or getting the better of, or the upper hand....... in relation to the opposition player/team  But these two are on the same side.  And if you’re talking about it in the context of Lion selection then again they’re playing different positions so not easy to compare contributions. Is Mercer outclassing Cokanasiga too?!

Outclassing means to be performing much better than. So yes subjective as you say but players are able to outclass players in their own team. Yes over the last 6 weeks or so Mercer has been head and shoulders Baths best player.


Hmmm.  Not sure I agree!  I think Spencer outclassed Mercer because he kicked better Wink

OK if you think that, that's ok. The same as every 0 out of 10 rating that is used countless times across all sports. If you think Spencer kicked better thats great, don't remember mercer kicking tbh.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 10:32 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:You keep bringing up examples of completely different positions. The role of 6 and 8 aren't hugely different.

But they’re different enough for one player to do different things that the other player might not be expected to do, and therefore not be easily comparable in a match. Especially as this is a Lions thread so, presumably, the hint is that Mercer could/should be in the mix with or instead of Faletau. My argument is that you cant move a player to 6 and then say that Mercer was a better 8 than him today. Doesn’t make sense. It’s like comparing Tipuric and Lydiate. Think about it logically. If Mercer did lots of good runs from the base of the scrum from 8 then it is literally impossible for Faletau to compete at that as they can’t be in the same place at the same time doing the same thing, unless we have a parallel universe.
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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 10:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Excellent first half from mercer outclassed the out of position Faletau again.

Is it possible to outclass someone on the same side???  Can a 10 outclass one of his prop teammates, for example?!


Looked it up to make sure....outclass is fair for me.

Just meant that it’s easy(ish) to see someone outclassing their opposite number as they tend to do the same role so are easily comparable.  But two players on the same team in different positions so doing different roles?  Not so easy I think. Hence my quip about comparing your flyhalf with your prop, which wouldn’t really be possible either!

Ah. Yeah fair enough point. More eye catching contributions are available at 8 rather than  6 i suppose. I'm betting at 56 min it'll be mercer ending with the potm though.

Of course thinking through that logically you're presumably never happy with any potm.

Don’t mind POTM.  It’s always subjective and each player contributes different things.  But one player can stand out I guess.  But that’s not what we’re saying here - outclassing in a sporting sense usually means beating, or getting the better of, or the upper hand....... in relation to the opposition player/team  But these two are on the same side.  And if you’re talking about it in the context of Lion selection then again they’re playing different positions so not easy to compare contributions. Is Mercer outclassing Cokanasiga too?!

Outclassing means to be performing much better than. So yes subjective as you say but players are able to outclass players in their own team. Yes over the last 6 weeks or so Mercer has been head and shoulders Baths best player.


Hmmm.  Not sure I agree!  I think Spencer outclassed Mercer because he kicked better Wink

OK if you think that, that's ok. The same as every 0 out of 10 rating that is used countless times across all sports. If you think Spencer kicked better thats great, don't remember mercer kicking tbh.

Bingo!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 10:53 pm

I really don't understand your point then oracle. You're going to have to explain it a little clearer.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 01 May 2021, 11:10 pm

Well, Spencer kicked better than Mercer because Spencer took the kicks and Mercer didn’t.  So Spencer ‘outclassed’ him in that area by dint of being the kicker.  It was not possible for Mercer to show his class in that area (goal kicking).  So my point is that really it’s not fair to compare them on that and say that one player outclassed the other on something only one of them does in the team.  So by extension I don’t feel you can say that an 8 outclassed someone in a different position, because they do different things. Just a personal view.  Outclassing the opposition 8 is possible though, IMO.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 May 2021, 11:19 pm

The Oracle wrote:Well, Spencer kicked better than Mercer because Spencer took the kicks and Mercer didn’t.  So Spencer ‘outclassed’ him in that area by dint of being the kicker.  It was not possible for Mercer to show his class in that area (goal kicking).  So my point is that really it’s not fair to compare them on that and say that one player outclassed the other on something only one of them does.  So by extension I don’t feel you can say that an 8 outclassed someone in a different position because they do different things. Just a personal view.  Outclassing the opposition 8 is possible though, IMO.

Ah so like I said you don't agree with potm as players in different positions can't be compared. I disagree. As I said mercer played better than faletau albeit taulape being moved to 6 away from his preferred position.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 01 May 2021, 11:21 pm

Mercer didn't outclass or outperform Faletau in tonight game, in the same way as he didn't outclass Underhill. If one actually watched the game then one would have realised that the BSF and the 8 roles were totally different tonight.


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Post by flyhalffactory Sat 01 May 2021, 11:25 pm

The reason Faletau is playing 6 at Bath is not because Mercer is a better 8, its because Faletau is the best at 8 or 6 so Bath play Toby at BSF and the next best 8 (in this case Mercer) plays 8

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Post by Maine man Sun 02 May 2021, 6:53 am

Just read that Youngs has removed himself from contention for the tour due to family reasons and that his wife is pregnant. Totally understandable.
I wonder if any others will rule themselves out considering what's going on in the world. What's the covid situation like in South Africa now?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 02 May 2021, 7:41 am

Maine man wrote:Just read that Youngs has removed himself from contention for the tour due to family reasons and that his wife is pregnant. Totally understandable.
I wonder if any others will rule themselves out considering what's going on in the world. What's the covid situation like in South Africa now?

"Ruled himself out"......thanks Benny. Couldn't see him being selected personally, but at least its a weight from my mind now he's confirmed it.

I would like to make it known that I am ruling myself out of the tour due to age/fitness reasons.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 02 May 2021, 7:45 am

He had received a save the date letter from Gatland so was in consideration.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 02 May 2021, 8:57 am

Great news. Well done Youngs in prioritising his family.

Apparently he's the only 1 to rule himself.out so fingers crossed Marler did get the email.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 02 May 2021, 9:02 am

Soul Requiem wrote:He had received a save the date letter from Gatland so was in consideration.

Agree
He's played well in 2021, I'm sure he's the bookies favourite to tour as a 9

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would like to make it known that I am ruling myself out of the tour due to age/fitness reasons.
As he's younger than a few being selected and not injured, I can only assume it's a cheeky wind-up.

9 is the one position that's wide open, all the 6Ns SHs were inconsistent. I think Danny Care is in outstanding form and I liked the young Welsh lad Hardy

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 02 May 2021, 9:04 am

flyhalffactory wrote:The reason Faletau is playing 6 at Bath is not because Mercer is a better 8, its because Faletau is the best at 8 or 6 so Bath play Toby at BSF and the next best 8 (in this case Mercer) plays 8

Except on form Mercer is the better 8 at Bath at the minute. The Falatau that turns up for Wales is rarely the Falatau that turns up for Bath hence when Bath decided to move one to 6 and sacrifice some of their carrying for grunt work it was always going to be Falatau rather than the explosive Mercer. In current club form anyway.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 02 May 2021, 9:13 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:The reason Faletau is playing 6 at Bath is not because Mercer is a better 8, its because Faletau is the best at 8 or 6 so Bath play Toby at BSF and the next best 8 (in this case Mercer) plays 8

Except on form Mercer is the better 8 at Bath at the minute. The Falatau that turns up for Wales is rarely the Falatau that turns up for Bath hence when Bath decided to move one to 6 and sacrifice some of their carrying for grunt work it was always going to be Falatau rather than the explosive Mercer. In current club form anyway.

Morning Sam
That's your opinion and I don't agree with it. Mercer is an explosive runner aka Simmonds and that catches the eye. If you look at Faletau history since joining Bath he had a catalogue of injuries and that's the only reason Mercer took the 8 slot. I'd rather listen to the Bath coaches assessment post match and they've being gushing over Toby.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 02 May 2021, 9:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Great news. Well done Youngs in prioritising his family.

Apparently he's the only 1 to rule himself.out so fingers crossed Marler did get the email.

Ben's the only one that's come forward to discuss it. I doubt very much Marler will tour. Two months in bubble with camp isn't where I'd expect someone who retired from international rugby to spend more time at home to want to be.

I think Ben would have toured not sure he'd have made the test side but he offers so much and can play a variety of styles. Plus for such a big occasion would you opt to leave a 100 cap player at home. For me it's similar to AWJ, you take him but probably for as much as he brings around the camp to as what he might do on match day.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 02 May 2021, 9:17 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:The reason Faletau is playing 6 at Bath is not because Mercer is a better 8, its because Faletau is the best at 8 or 6 so Bath play Toby at BSF and the next best 8 (in this case Mercer) plays 8

Except on form Mercer is the better 8 at Bath at the minute. The Falatau that turns up for Wales is rarely the Falatau that turns up for Bath hence when Bath decided to move one to 6 and sacrifice some of their carrying for grunt work it was always going to be Falatau rather than the explosive Mercer. In current club form anyway.

Morning Sam
That's your opinion and I don't agree with it. Mercer is an explosive runner aka Simmonds and that catches the eye. If you look at Faletau history since joining Bath he had a catalogue of injuries and that's the only reason Mercer took the 8 slot. I'd rather listen to the Bath coaches assessment post match and they've being gushing over Toby.

The same Bath coaches that struggle to get Bath to perform to the sum of their parts? The Bath coaches aren't going to sit their and bemoan one of their star player's contributions either. Falatau was asked to sacrifice his carrying for the team's grunt work and he did that, good effort but they weren't going to ask Mercer to do that because as you say he's been explosive.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 02 May 2021, 9:22 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Great news. Well done Youngs in prioritising his family.

Apparently he's the only 1 to rule himself.out so fingers crossed Marler did get the email.

Ben's the only one that's come forward to discuss it. I doubt very much Marler will tour. Two months in bubble with camp isn't where I'd expect someone who retired from international rugby to spend more time at home to want to be.

I think Ben would have toured not sure he'd have made the test side but he offers so much and can play a variety of styles. Plus for such a big occasion would you opt to leave a 100 cap player at home. For me it's similar to AWJ, you take him but probably for as much as he brings around the camp to as what he might do on match day.

I can't imagine Marler not being asked and yes that would be a big impact on him but I do think he takes each case as it comes hence the crossing of fingers.

You know what I think of Youngs so yes of course I would have opted to leave him at home.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 02 May 2021, 9:27 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Great news. Well done Youngs in prioritising his family.

Apparently he's the only 1 to rule himself.out so fingers crossed Marler did get the email.

I think Ben would have toured not sure he'd have made the test side

Sadly, we'll never get to find out Very Happy

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 02 May 2021, 9:42 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Great news. Well done Youngs in prioritising his family.

Apparently he's the only 1 to rule himself.out so fingers crossed Marler did get the email.

I think Ben would have toured not sure he'd have made the test side

Sadly, we'll never get to find out Very Happy

You laugh but it could mean no England halfbacks on the tour. Wonder when the last time that happened was?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 02 May 2021, 9:55 am

Deoends if you're discounting Farrell being classed as a fly half. I also have the deep seated fear Gatland will take Smith.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 02 May 2021, 10:24 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:The reason Faletau is playing 6 at Bath is not because Mercer is a better 8, its because Faletau is the best at 8 or 6 so Bath play Toby at BSF and the next best 8 (in this case Mercer) plays 8

Except on form Mercer is the better 8 at Bath at the minute. The Falatau that turns up for Wales is rarely the Falatau that turns up for Bath hence when Bath decided to move one to 6 and sacrifice some of their carrying for grunt work it was always going to be Falatau rather than the explosive Mercer. In current club form anyway.

Morning Sam
That's your opinion and I don't agree with it. Mercer is an explosive runner aka Simmonds and that catches the eye. If you look at Faletau history since joining Bath he had a catalogue of injuries and that's the only reason Mercer took the 8 slot. I'd rather listen to the Bath coaches assessment post match and they've being gushing over Toby.

The same Bath coaches that struggle to get Bath to perform to the sum of their parts? The Bath coaches aren't going to sit their and bemoan one of their star player's contributions either. Falatau was asked to sacrifice his carrying for the team's grunt work and he did that, good effort but they weren't going to ask Mercer to do that because as you say he's been explosive.

I agree
But I think it's more to do with we need the best 6 and the best 8 and that (in my opinion is clearly Faletau) but he can't play both positions, so to bring Mercer in at 8, they had to bring in a different coaching dynamic, so it was "Faletau you will do more of the dirty blind side work, while you Mercer "Smash" "
(Since Covid) not being able to watch Edinburgh and not having them on the box much, I've watched the Premiership all season either on 4, Virgin or Sky and thoroughly enjoyed it, agreeing with Biggar that it's a massive step up from the Pro 14, I am all luuurved up with Mercer, Dombrandt and Simmons, absolutely a country mile ahead of Billy V and it's highly suspicious why Steady keeps ignoring the last 18 months form and steadfastly picks Mako, Billy, Owen, Jamie and even Maro when there are clearly better performing club players. It's relevant to the Lions as I'm sure we would be considering the Mercers, Simmonds, Dombrandts in the BR and the Smith, Simmonds at FH....etc if they had at least had media exposure and played in the "development" ANC.
The other worry for me is that we are considering Faletau at 8 for the Lions when he is playing 6 at club level and Watson can't even command a wing spot at club level when we are talking about him claiming the RW for the Lions. I can see Gats & Co selecting on versatility rather than being the best of breed in a position

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Post by lostinwales Sun 02 May 2021, 10:34 am

flyhalffactory wrote:...

...
The other worry for me is that we are considering Faletau at 8 for the Lions when he is playing 6 at club level and Watson can't even command a wing spot at club level when we are talking about him claiming the RW for the Lions. I can see Gats & Co selecting on versatility rather than being the best of breed in a position

Why is Watson's case (at club level) different from Faletau?

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 02 May 2021, 10:39 am

Some players seem to be judged on international form and others on club form.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 02 May 2021, 10:45 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Some players seem to be judged on international form and others on club form.

I think that is very judge dependant

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 02 May 2021, 11:39 am

lostinwales wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:...

...
The other worry for me is that we are considering Faletau at 8 for the Lions when he is playing 6 at club level and Watson can't even command a wing spot at club level when we are talking about him claiming the RW for the Lions. I can see Gats & Co selecting on versatility rather than being the best of breed in a position

Why is Watson's case (at club level) different from Faletau?

It's no different
Faletau considered 8 for Lions but playing 6 because Mercer is a better 8.......not a fact just an opinion, but not my opinion (I think Faletau is a better 8 and 6)
Watson considered 14 for Lions but playing 15 because Cokanasiga is a better 14.......not a fact, just an opinion, but not my opinion (I think Watson is a better 15 and 14)

I can see Gats & Co, because of a reduced 36 man squad, going for versatility not expertise, with very few specialists outside of the FR and SHs, apart from Hogg, AWJ, Sexton, May, Ryan, Gray, Harris, DvdM (if selected), it's going to be an interchangeable squad
Lock/BSF - Itoje, Lawes, Beirne
FH/IC - Farrell, Russell, Biggar
IC/OC - Foxy, Henshaw
Wing/FB - Watson, Sanjay, Maitland
Wing/OC/FB....tea boy, press sec, entertainments officer, town crier - Daly
6/7/8 - Everyone and Daly

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 02 May 2021, 1:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:...

...
The other worry for me is that we are considering Faletau at 8 for the Lions when he is playing 6 at club level and Watson can't even command a wing spot at club level when we are talking about him claiming the RW for the Lions. I can see Gats & Co selecting on versatility rather than being the best of breed in a position

Why is Watson's case (at club level) different from Faletau?

As Bath's only other fullback Tom de Glanville (yes the son of) is injured I'm not sure they have much choice. They can't pop a flyhalf to cover there either as they are all crocked as well. Bath have a number of good wingers but are short at 15. Watson is still their best back three player and was one of the few England players in the 6N to play well.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 02 May 2021, 1:46 pm

Watson had a good 6Ns, courageous, rarely makes a mistake

You are right, they have a shed load injured, The Priest could slip in, saying that Ruaridh McConnochie was brought into the seniors primarily as FB/Wing not a Wing/FB, yet he was on the LW against London Ire (ok now injured)and there's the lad Atkins

Slightly off topic, I have been impressed with Miles Reid as well

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Post by y ddraig goch Sun 02 May 2021, 3:10 pm

I enjoyed reading the discussion about 'scrummaging locks'.

The fact is no-one can judge when they're sat at home on the sofa.

I think the usual logic is the bigger, uglier second-row with hands like feet is going to be the strongest in the scrum. We also know that Quinn Roux is one of the best scrummaging locks because the media kept telling us: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/neil-francis-quinn-roux-was-a-deplorable-selection-while-media-happy-to-buy-power-scrummaging-theory-34813440.html

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