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Post by dynamark Tue 20 Apr 2021, 8:41 am

Ben Leicester have been fortunate to find wealthy owners who saved us from a deal of trouble but they could not be accused of throwing stupid money around and disregarding the fans.The PL winning team was assembled from a bunch of frees ,has beens and cheap buys I think Ulloa was the top buy at about £9m.What they then did as some players moved on for big money was start throwing some of that money about to try to maintain position with varying degrees of success.The Chairman gives away free beer and cakes on his birthday and has given a lot to local organisations including a childrens hospital ,We have been very very lucky.
I think the German teams have a different voting structure where fans have a big say.

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Post by beninho Tue 20 Apr 2021, 9:22 am

My point in general is money has impacted football, well forever. Rich clubs are always more successful. And in general, I am fine with that. Decent sized clubs in the doldrums will attract wealthy investors, like City, who not long ago had the double done over them by my team, Wycombe. But also Leicester and Southampton who were both previously in administration, and Leeds. Bournemouth were bankrolled to the prem by a rich Russian.

I am OK with it, football doesn't have to be a level playing field, and it never has been. But I really hate this esl and hope the clubs involved are kicked out the league.

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Post by dynamark Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:04 am

I think if you run through all the prem clubs pretty much all probably bar Palace and Burnley have had a dose of foriegn cash thrown in.As you say the attraction of a struggling team or a promising Championship outfit is strong .Some win big some loose big.

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Post by beninho Wed 21 Apr 2021, 7:39 am

It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?

American police officers really need to stop killing people.

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Post by incontinentia Wed 21 Apr 2021, 8:48 am

beninho wrote:It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?  

American police officers really need to stop killing people.
Their training needs an overhaul, and indeed US police representatives have visited other jurisdictions to see what they can learn.

The right verdict was made, but I dont understand why its being claimed as a racial victory, there was no hint during the trial that the officers behaviour was racially motivated?
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Post by superflyweight Wed 21 Apr 2021, 9:22 am

incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?  

American police officers really need to stop killing people.
Their training needs an overhaul, and indeed US police representatives have visited other jurisdictions to see what they can learn.

The right verdict was made, but I dont understand why its being claimed as a racial victory, there was no hint during the trial that the officers behaviour was racially motivated?

Because there is a history of white police officers killing/beating black people and getting away with it - regardless of the evidence.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Apr 2021, 12:46 pm

incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?  

American police officers really need to stop killing people.
Their training needs an overhaul, and indeed US police representatives have visited other jurisdictions to see what they can learn.

The right verdict was made, but I dont understand why its being claimed as a racial victory, there was no hint during the trial that the officers behaviour was racially motivated?

It's frustrating that Chauvin 'took the fifth' because his motivations are a mystery. I believe it was claimed that Chauvin and Floyd knew each other and the murder may have related to some personal animosity.

With the evidence available, and the fact that the prosecution didn't go for first-degree murder (which requires proof of intent), instead they settled for lesser charges, I think a guilty verdict was always going to be arrived at.

Tough job for the judge now. He can sentence Chauvin to anywhere between 12.5 and 75 years.

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Post by pedro Wed 21 Apr 2021, 11:23 pm

superflyweight wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?  

American police officers really need to stop killing people.
Their training needs an overhaul, and indeed US police representatives have visited other jurisdictions to see what they can learn.

The right verdict was made, but I dont understand why its being claimed as a racial victory, there was no hint during the trial that the officers behaviour was racially motivated?

Because there is a history of white police officers killing/beating black people and getting away with it - regardless of the evidence.  
Stat of the day. Did you know that, relatively speaking, black officers kill more black people than white officers kill black people.

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Post by pedro Wed 21 Apr 2021, 11:35 pm

Re. ESL: ironic that UEFA are now the good guys... I hope they don’t give the dirty dozen too many concessions going ahead.

Anyways, one of the good things about closed shops like NBA and NFL is salary caps and their lack of a dodgy transfer/agent system (ok, I don’t like the draft either). I think UEFA must look into some of this to ensure more level playing fields looking ahead - otherwise games like Elche-Valladolid or Sassuolo-Cagliari will remain uninteresting for others than their fans. An alternative could of course be to cut the leagues down to 16 teams.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Wed 21 Apr 2021, 11:41 pm

pedro wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?  

American police officers really need to stop killing people.
Their training needs an overhaul, and indeed US police representatives have visited other jurisdictions to see what they can learn.

The right verdict was made, but I dont understand why its being claimed as a racial victory, there was no hint during the trial that the officers behaviour was racially motivated?

Because there is a history of white police officers killing/beating black people and getting away with it - regardless of the evidence.  
Stat of the day. Did you know that, relatively speaking, black officers kill more black people than white officers kill black people.

Interesting article about that - https://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562077/police-racism-implicit-bias

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Post by beninho Thu 22 Apr 2021, 10:25 pm

pedro wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
incontinentia wrote:
beninho wrote:It still seems a surprise that officer was convicted for the murder of George Floyd. Strange considering it was clearly murder, and we've all seen the video. Woukd he have been convicted if not recorded?  

American police officers really need to stop killing people.
Their training needs an overhaul, and indeed US police representatives have visited other jurisdictions to see what they can learn.

The right verdict was made, but I dont understand why its being claimed as a racial victory, there was no hint during the trial that the officers behaviour was racially motivated?

Because there is a history of white police officers killing/beating black people and getting away with it - regardless of the evidence.  
Stat of the day. Did you know that, relatively speaking, black officers kill more black people than white officers kill black people.

Wheres the stat?

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Post by beninho Sun 25 Apr 2021, 8:33 am

Anti Lockdown loons wearing yellow stars on the protests march. Some people.

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Post by McLaren Sun 25 Apr 2021, 11:57 pm

What is the arguments of the anti lockdowners? Are they saying covid isn't an issue or that they know more people will get sick but just abandon lockdown anyway?

Got to love a conspiracy theorist.
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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 7:35 am

McLaren wrote:What is the arguments of the anti lockdowners? Are they saying covid isn't an issue or that they know more people will get sick but just abandon lockdown anyway?

Got to love a conspiracy theorist.

Frivolous, half baked misconceptions and half truths based on a paranoid agenda?

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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 7:44 am

So, a year in, how do people think Project Starmer going in the Labour Party?
Particularly interested in the views of those who thought Corbyns ideas and direction were wrong. Many thought he was a useless oaf as a leader and an irritating personality, I get that but the broad thrust of establishment challenging ideas that were apparently so damaging that a complete change of direction was required...well how’s establishment compliant lapdog Starmer doing in the polls?

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:29 am

JAS wrote:So, a year in, how do people think Project Starmer going in the Labour Party?
Particularly interested in the views of those who thought Corbyns ideas and direction were wrong. Many thought he was a useless oaf as a leader and an irritating personality, I get that but the broad thrust of establishment challenging ideas that were apparently so damaging that a complete change of direction was required...well how’s establishment compliant lapdog Starmer doing in the polls?

I quite like him JAS censored

Firstly he's dull which isn't necessarily a bad thing but there seems to be a distinct lack of personality, what there is seems to have been cultivated for the media. There's also the issue of being a former barrister, on one had it suggests a high level of competency but on the other hand lawyers are not particularly popular in this country.

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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:53 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
JAS wrote:So, a year in, how do people think Project Starmer going in the Labour Party?
Particularly interested in the views of those who thought Corbyns ideas and direction were wrong. Many thought he was a useless oaf as a leader and an irritating personality, I get that but the broad thrust of establishment challenging ideas that were apparently so damaging that a complete change of direction was required...well how’s establishment compliant lapdog Starmer doing in the polls?

I quite like him JAS censored

Firstly he's dull which isn't necessarily a bad thing but there seems to be a distinct lack of personality, what there is seems to have been cultivated for the media. There's also the issue of being a former barrister, on one had it suggests a high level of competency but on the other hand lawyers are not particularly popular in this country.

Oh I've no doubt he's competent and if I needed a barrister and money was no object I'd want him fighting my case. But his main job is now Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition. As a leader he comes across as more competent than Corbyn but he seems to have forgotten the last word of his title. He almost seems afraid to properly Oppose without checking if anyone will be offended. Jeez even Wall Street Democrat Biden is more freely spouting Union/working class friendly rhetoric than the leader of the British Labour party. Why is that? Starmer seems afraid of what the polls might say and in doing so is coming across as false and the very poll ratings he wants to improve are slapping him in the face.

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Post by dynamark Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:54 am

Hes pretty dull for a 'leader'.I think he badly lacks credible back up the deputy leader is just a miserable moaner ,wet Jon Ashworth continues to look very lightweight ,noone stands out as a serious politicain.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 27 Apr 2021, 9:59 am

JAS wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
JAS wrote:So, a year in, how do people think Project Starmer going in the Labour Party?
Particularly interested in the views of those who thought Corbyns ideas and direction were wrong. Many thought he was a useless oaf as a leader and an irritating personality, I get that but the broad thrust of establishment challenging ideas that were apparently so damaging that a complete change of direction was required...well how’s establishment compliant lapdog Starmer doing in the polls?

I quite like him JAS censored

Firstly he's dull which isn't necessarily a bad thing but there seems to be a distinct lack of personality, what there is seems to have been cultivated for the media. There's also the issue of being a former barrister, on one had it suggests a high level of competency but on the other hand lawyers are not particularly popular in this country.

Oh I've no doubt he's competent and if I needed a barrister and money was no object I'd want him fighting my case. But his main job is now Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition. As a leader he comes across as more competent than Corbyn but he seems to have forgotten the last word of his title. He almost seems afraid to properly Oppose without checking if anyone will be offended. Jeez even Wall Street Democrat Biden is more freely spouting Union/working class friendly rhetoric than the leader of the British Labour party. Why is that? Starmer seems afraid of what the polls might say and in doing so is coming across as false and the very poll ratings he wants to improve are slapping him in the face.

Dyna has touched on it to, Angela Rayner is and i'll try putting this delicately a less than credible deputy leader. It's a tricky one to get the balance of the shadow cabinet right between the hard left and the soft left, Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn are the most accomplished and credible Labour MPs and they continue to be marginalised.

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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 10:59 am

dynamark wrote:Hes pretty dull for a 'leader'.I think he badly lacks credible back up the deputy leader is just a miserable moaner ,wet Jon Ashworth continues to  look very lightweight ,noone stands out as a serious politicain.

Dull leaders can still get elected though Dyna (John Major?). I don’t think Starmer’s going to even come close. I think Rayner is a half decent journeyman or jounrneyperson politician and not very deputy PM material (but did anyone really think Prescott was??)

I think the country has pretty much painted itself blue for at least the next couple of decades. Those red wall voters will NOT come back, they might get a bit angry at the worst excesses of this lot but generally speaking they’ll look at the alternatives, read the Sun and think “Nah!!” and just suck it up. Prime example being a Prime Minister able to say “Let the bodies pile high” and yet the media is whipping up a frenzy about the price of Downing Street bloody curtains. Only in modern day Britain would such a statement be acceptable and most definitely only in Britain would a gullible public allow itself to be distracted by the media from holding to account a loose cannon PM willing to let his citizens die in their thousands on principle by throwing into the foreground a debate about redecorating a flat and who paid for it. Utter bonkers, Starmer should be swinging the mace in anger at the despatch box instead of chirping snidely about donations and meekly agreeing with most of what’s happened over the past year. Let’s be honest If they’re both saying pretty much the same thing people would rather hear it from an enthusiastic bumbling clown than a dull boring pedant.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 27 Apr 2021, 11:16 am

JAS wrote:Prime example being a Prime Minister able to say “Let the bodies pile high” and yet the media is whipping up a frenzy about the price of Downing Street bloody curtains. Only in modern day Britain would such a statement be acceptable and most definitely only in Britain would a gullible public allow itself to be distracted by the media from holding to account a loose cannon PM willing to let his citizens die in their thousands on principle by throwing into the foreground a debate about redecorating a flat and who paid for it.

Of course, there's no actual evidence he said this, is there? It's just he said, she said.

And I think Starmer's doing OK, as leader of the opposition. It's difficult to judge because we've been in extraordinary circumstances for the past year, and much of ordinary politics has been suspended. He won't win a majority in 2024, barring a total Tory collapse, but that's primarily because of the huge deficit in seats he's been left with from Corbyn's disastrous 2019 GE campaign.

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Post by dynamark Tue 27 Apr 2021, 11:18 am

We will no doubt find out the truth of both issues.Personally I couldnt care less who paid for extra downing st refurb as long as it wasnt the taxpayer and the comment alleged wasnt made in the commons or a committee or a cabinet meet,It sounds more likely to be an rather heated discussion along the lines of 'we have to accept there will be some casualties'We have all heard the arguments about lockdowns causing depression ,mental health,physical health issues etc etc and I would expect ministers and civil servants to be talking about the whole picture.
Starmer was the only choice for labour as there wasnt any else credible but he is isolated for me.

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Post by McLaren Tue 27 Apr 2021, 11:27 am

Jas

I like Starmer, and think it is unfair to call him an "establishment compliant lapdog". It is early days for him if he ever wants to become PM and remaining bland and uncontroversial at this stage is the way to go. Hopefully when it comes to election time he puts together an interesting manifesto.

And you only need to look at the meltdown from navy, who I don't think was a Tory voter, when the governments covid response was robustly challenged. Those planning the labour reponse have presumably picked up on how unpopular and unpatriotic it is viewed to challenge the position that the UK has dealt with this bravely and expertly. Like the superior nation we are. If Starmer goes in two footed over the covid response he would end up even more unpopular than Corbyn. You could say he shouldn't be worrying about the polls at this point but it's not like he could have changed any of the government actions. He strongly supported the lockdowns, what more could he have done?
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Post by dynamark Tue 27 Apr 2021, 12:45 pm

At present issues like these are the only things labour can really have a pop on bearing in mind local elections next week so no surprises there.If the covid/vaccine plan works that will sit well with your average voter for a long time and the tories would need to make some almighty man sausage ups to start loosing elections.Probably the only problem will be how we start to pay the bill.

I know for sure i wouldnt want Dodds running the economy or Ashworth running health at present ,Just no serious credible persons on Labour front group

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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 1:01 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

I like Starmer, and think it is unfair to call him an "establishment compliant lapdog". It is early days for him if he ever wants to become PM and remaining bland and uncontroversial at this stage is the way to go. Hopefully when it comes to election time he puts together an interesting manifesto.

And you only need to look at the meltdown from navy, who I don't think was a Tory voter, when the governments covid response was robustly challenged. Those planning the labour reponse have presumably picked up on how unpopular and unpatriotic it is viewed to challenge the position that the UK has dealt with this bravely and expertly. Like the superior nation we are. If Starmer goes in two footed over the covid response he would end up even more unpopular than Corbyn. You could say he shouldn't be worrying about the polls at this point but it's not like he could have changed any of the government actions. He strongly supported the lockdowns, what more could he have done?

There is some acceptance in what you say Mac but I think in 3ish years time it will be borne out that he IS an establishment compliant lapdog who will end up, for very different reasons, fairing no better than Corbyn at the polls which will put Labour into complete meltdown i.e.going left didn't work, lurching back to the right side of the party in search of the so called centre ground didn't work either - where to next comrades? Complete split into 2 separate parties and a 2 decade+ Tory hegemony on power. Like Duty said the 2124 election will already be gone given their starting point. Absolute best they could hope for would be a Tory majority slim enough to wither away to 0 during the course of the next parliament but for that to happen, Starmer needs to start cutting it pdq and I just don't see it. Should they lurch back left? No that would be even worse, they need to keep it simple, show some backbone and some empathy, not chase 30 year old soundbites

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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 1:07 pm

dynamark wrote:At present issues like these are the only things labour can really have  a pop on bearing in mind local elections next week so no surprises there.If the covid/vaccine plan works that will sit well with your average voter for a long time and the tories would need to make some almighty man sausage ups to start loosing elections.Probably the only problem will be how we start to pay the bill.

I know for sure i wouldnt want Dodds running the economy or Ashworth running health at present ,Just no serious  credible persons on Labour front group

Agree on Dodds Dyna, boring school swot detested by the cool kids...harsh maybe but true. I generally think Ashworth is quite good, certainly more palatable than Hancock. Having said that I know he's from Leicester so I'm guessing there may be a bit of local knowledge that might influence your view on him specifically?

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Post by McLaren Tue 27 Apr 2021, 1:18 pm

Jas

The British don't vote for left or left of centre parties. Just look at the post war elections.

This was based on a brief look at a list of post war UK governments but roughly shows the ratio of Tory:Labour governments.

Labour: 32 years in power

Tory: 44 years in power


And since "neoliberalism" became popular with Thatcher the ratio since she came to power is even more in the Tories favour.

Labour: 13 years in power since 1979 (only Blair has won a general election)
Tory: 29 years

Having only one person able to win in 42 years shows just how unlikely it is that a labour politician will win a general election in modern Britain.

What exactly can the left do if the general public is right leaning?
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Post by JAS Tue 27 Apr 2021, 2:01 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

The British don't vote for left or left of centre parties. Just look at the post war elections.

This was based on a brief look at a list of post war UK governments but roughly shows the ratio of Tory:Labour governments.

Labour: 32 years in power

Tory: 44 years in power


And since "neoliberalism" became popular with Thatcher the ratio since she came to power is even more in the Tories favour.

Labour: 13 years in power since 1979 (only Blair has won a general election)
Tory: 29 years

Having only one person able to win in 42 years shows just how unlikely it is that a labour politician will win a general election in modern Britain.

What exactly can the left do if the general public is right leaning?

Nothing really Mac, Especially in these now much more polarised times. The Left can point out all the flaws of a right wing government (and there are plenty) but if it can't sell a credible alternative vision that captures peoples imagination then it simply won't succeed, given that a majority of people will no longer even want to open their ears to listen to a credible alternative vision then yeah, they're pretty much dead in the water. The only reasons Blair got anywhere near power was that it was a different era and he had a combination of the following in his favour
a) the country was tired of Tory sleaze and they'd just been in power too long
b) he had a bit of charisma and presented a feeling of a fresh approach,
c) he was fairly astute and ruthless
d) he identified correctly the demographic he had to win over
e) he kind of hit the ground running by succeeding a largely well respected and well liked politician in John Smith
e) he had a press Rottweiler in Campbell who evened up the media playing field more than it had ever done before
f) he was lucky to have a few other talents to populate a cabinet with

Realistically how many of those things does Starmer have

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Post by superflyweight Tue 27 Apr 2021, 4:21 pm

Blair also didn't have to deal with a majority of Scotland losing its sh1t over flags one way or the other so that a massive part of the electorate thinks they either have to vote for SNP or the Tories.

Blair could comfortably count on 50+ seats from Scotland. Starmer can't comfortably count on one.

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Post by beninho Tue 27 Apr 2021, 8:12 pm

Soneone in to Conservative party has decided its time to get rid of Johnson. All the stories coming out now. This seems orchestrated.

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Post by dynamark Wed 28 Apr 2021, 12:45 pm

Jas No personal knowledge of Jon Ashworth unlike Vaz who is/was a truly despicable individual.He just does not have any real sign of expertise doesnt give confidence.Liz Kendall another local MP was the same lacking gravitas. Too many similar labour MPs not looking like serious individuals to give our trust to run the shop.
I mentioned recently my club raising fees by a considerable amount and some serious unrest/leaving being met by silence from the owners.The car park is still pretty full so maybe they can push it through but bad karma all round.

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Post by McLaren Wed 28 Apr 2021, 1:47 pm

Jas

I am at the point where I have accepted that a left of centre government is not possible in the UK. I have no idea what this means for labour but they might as well not bother to exist anymore as far as I can see.

And I think this is to do with social policies rather than economic or financial. I interpret Brext and the 10 years of Tory rule as the UK voters admitting they think social justice went too far or went just as far as they can stomach. They are now sick of having to care about refugees/immigrants, LGBTQ+, women, minorities, reducing inequality, working with other countries etc. Selling improved rights or living conditions to the UK people is now pointless. It is clear that the UK population now find these discussions tiresome. If anyone has a genius idea that can overturn this situation I want to hear it but I suspect times will be pretty grim for the foreseeable future.
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Post by JAS Wed 28 Apr 2021, 4:53 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

I am at the point where I have accepted that a left of centre government is not possible in the UK. I have no idea what this means for labour but they might as well not bother to exist anymore as far as I can see.

And I think this is to do with social policies rather than economic or financial. I interpret Brext and the 10 years of Tory rule as the UK voters admitting they think social justice went too far or went just as far as they can stomach. They are now sick of having to care about refugees/immigrants, LGBTQ+, women, minorities, reducing inequality, working with other countries etc. Selling improved rights or living conditions to the UK people is now pointless. It is clear that the UK population now find these discussions tiresome. If anyone has a genius idea that can overturn this situation I want to hear it but I suspect times will be pretty grim for the foreseeable future.

I don't think I could ever fully accept that Mac :-p Equally though I don't know what the current malaise means for Labours future either. It's one of those things...you won't notice the role it plays until after it's gone. Before it's existence the general outlook for the masses of working people in Britain was pretty dire. You give capitalists free reign to power wealth and opportunity and they will exploit the masses adinfinitum. That was blatantly and patently obvious 125 years ago which is why the Labour Party came into being. It's taken over a century to drag society out of the dark ages and that journey has been so successful that people now take what they think is a reasonable fair society for granted. Give this lot another 20 years in power and we WILL be steeped in modern day Dickesianism.

With regard to social or economic/financial no I think you have it the wrong way round (as do the Labour party which is why they're in such trouble). If the financials and economics were right then the Social justice stuff would follow but because it's not that's WHY we have such social unrest. People are angry because they've been had, trickle down economics hasn't trickled down to most, the elite have taken the piss, the masses are STILL paying for it. Rather than do their own research and understand the real reasons why things are no longer getting better for each generation they're being told its all the fault of immigrants and unpatriotic lefty equality policies. Angry resentful people tend to turn more nationalistic for some reason and so they take it all on board and we get into a vicious circle that bred Brexit.

I see Brexit has just claimed another party Leader. No sympathy for her at all, she propped the previous administration up long enough for the Tories to line their ducks up differently and ultimately she was shat on too, she should have known better. Make no mistake, the unrest in unionist areas of NI is a direct result of Brexit.

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Post by McLaren Wed 28 Apr 2021, 10:02 pm

Jas

Not sure what makes you think being financially better off makes you more concerned about social justice issues? The typical Tory toff certainly dispels that myth.


In simple terms the English working class are a bit racist, homophobic, sexist, xenophobic. You name it. They are now voting with that in mind rather than caring about who will create more jobs in their area or provide better schools for their children. You could argue they know they are not going to get a better deal economically so they may as well vote in line with their prejudices.
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Post by JAS Thu 29 Apr 2021, 4:15 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Not sure what makes you think being financially better off makes you more concerned about social justice issues? The typical Tory toff certainly dispels that myth.


In simple terms the English working class are a bit racist, homophobic, sexist, xenophobic. You name it. They are now voting with that in mind rather than caring about who will create more jobs in their area or provide better schools for their children. You could argue they know they are not going to get a better deal economically so they may as well vote in line with their prejudices.

Mac you're still kind of looking at it back to front, that's not exactly what I'm saying. Let me try and explain...being financially better off doesn't necessarily make one more or less concerned about social justice. However the flip of that is that being less financially secure, indeed poor and with little prospect of sustained prosperity on the horizon DOES breed more resentment and more angst and when people are angry, thinking they've been cheated, they need somebody to blame. So guess who the haves gleefully shine a light on as the perpetrators of all our woes?? Yep immigrants, and the Tories do a subtly brilliant job of stoking those fires.

So you see the benefit if more of the lower/middle working class are better off is that there will be less angst and so social justice will have a better chance to properly flourish

The thing is the Left in the developed world are in deep deep trouble, why?? because Capitalism has globalised, Capital can move freely around the world, therefore supply chains have globalised. Labour however has not and cannot to any meaningful degree So how does that manifest itself, what happens?? Labour is usually one of the biggest if not thee biggest item on the cost side of a company balance sheet. So if a company can reduce it's wage bill by a factor of 10 by relocating somewhere on another continent where working directives and employment law is pretty much non existent why wouldn't it?? That's what greedy Capitalists do, why would they care about the economic carnage they're leaving behind in the UK, USA etc? A lot of companies follow suit and over time your big developed nations have a serious problem. Not only are jobs and livelihoods going, spending power in that economy is going too. THAT essentially is where we are. The right know this and say, we hear you we will create new prosperity, they won't but they say it well enough to sound believable to enough people. Then there was Trump who promised to go get the jobs back - which was NEVER going to happen but the same thing applied, he knew the issue and therefore knew the best lie to get elected. Luckily just enough people saw through it 2nd time round (aided by an obscene Covid body count). The left on the other hand just don't know how to address the issue in a way that fits with their principles and can work. The approach of "we know fine well greedy capitalists are screwing up the world and trampling on the faces of the many to furnish the few with lavish riches we don't like it but we cant do anything it so let's make our priorities nice things like equality. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns

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Post by McLaren Thu 29 Apr 2021, 10:49 pm

Jas

I get some of what you are saying but I just think that in the UK the majority of people are socially conservative. This puts the two strands of labour's policies, which are economically left and socially left, in opposition to each other. For a lot of middle/working class they could probably stomach the economically left wing policies but they are no longer prepared to vote for social justice left wing policies.

As we have seen many times in the USA people are willing to vote against their own economic interests as long as they think they are getting the society they want.

Labour pretty much only appeals to a small number of hardcore anti tory voters and university educated liberals at this point.

And I doubt very much that the average UK voter goes to the polls thinking about the philosophy of globalisation. Their analysis of such things pretty much stops with "the foreigners are taking our jobs".
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Post by pedro Thu 29 Apr 2021, 10:50 pm

Unemployment in the US and UK is at its lowest in 10+ years.
Median gdp and household income per capita has never been higher. Gini coefficient has been stable for the last 10+ years.
What’s your point again?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Thu 29 Apr 2021, 11:18 pm

pedro wrote:Unemployment in the US and UK is at its lowest in 10+ years.
Median gdp and household income per capita has never been higher. Gini coefficient has been stable for the last 10+ years.
What’s your point again?

Not in the UK
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/annual-household-income-per-capita#:~:text=United%20Kingdom%20Annual%20Household%20Income,averaged%20value%20of%2035%2C152.927%20USD.

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Post by JAS Fri 30 Apr 2021, 10:42 am

pedro wrote:Unemployment in the US and UK is at its lowest in 10+ years.
Median gdp and household income per capita has never been higher. Gini coefficient has been stable for the last 10+ years.
What’s your point again?

That statistics can be bent to support almost any narrative. There's a difference between 'employment' and stable employment (the vast growth of the gig economy is something that older statistics would never have had to factor in - the gig economy does suit some people but doesn't suit far more).

The very fact that median GDP and household income have never been better and yet there is poverty at levels not seen for decades should tell you how much things are skewed in favour of the few. i.e. it's not that the country is not wealthy, it's that the wealth is skewed in favour of the few. Now it should be to a point because hard work and endeavour should be rewarded, but past a certain point (which admittedly is hard to pinpoint) the redistribution of wealth becomes unfair on any measure.

Can you imagine saying to a family, thrown into poverty through redundancies. "What the hell is your problem Median GDP and household income per capita has never been better" Even if that is true, it's hardly going to resonate with them and millions like them is it? Because they're just not on the right side of the curve. Yes ok they should buck their ideas up and get a job. Ok is there full employment in this country? No so, whatever job they manage to get, somebody else misses out. Yeah but yeah but, as the economy recovers new jobs will spring up. Hmmm yes maybe, well paid? Probably not, so not much out of poverty then, maybe helped by in work benefits

In work benefits....Now there's a thing we seem to accept without properly challenging. Some companies pay their staff such Poopie wages that the state effectively has to supplement so that a family can make ends meet. So WE are effectively paying to supplement company balance sheets but somehow it gets twisted as we are giving undeserving people benefits. Of course if it was challenged the stock answer from a company would be, look we cant afford to pay more, if you make us, we'll take our jobs overseas to some tinpot republic.....In other words the state is being blackmailed by global companies to keep people in work and that is the crux of the problem that the left has today that it doesn't seem able to address. It's damned if it does and damned if it doesn't




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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 30 Apr 2021, 10:50 am

JAS wrote:
pedro wrote:Unemployment in the US and UK is at its lowest in 10+ years.
Median gdp and household income per capita has never been higher. Gini coefficient has been stable for the last 10+ years.
What’s your point again?

That statistics can be bent to support almost any narrative. There's a difference between 'employment' and stable employment (the vast growth of the gig economy is something that older statistics would never have had to factor in - the gig economy does suit some people but doesn't suit far more).


Can you provide any evidence to support that claim?

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Post by JAS Fri 30 Apr 2021, 12:05 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
JAS wrote:
pedro wrote:Unemployment in the US and UK is at its lowest in 10+ years.
Median gdp and household income per capita has never been higher. Gini coefficient has been stable for the last 10+ years.
What’s your point again?

That statistics can be bent to support almost any narrative. There's a difference between 'employment' and stable employment (the vast growth of the gig economy is something that older statistics would never have had to factor in - the gig economy does suit some people but doesn't suit far more).


Can you provide any evidence to support that claim?

Which one? The growth of the Gig economy? Do you seriously need evidence to confirm that there has been a massive growth in the gig economy, particularly lower income Zero hour contract work?.

Yes I'm well aware that as a former freelancer I was a part of the gig economy for over 20 years and it suited me as it did many other IT professionals. So using the particular term gig economy might not have been the best choice of wording.

In terms of Zero hours contracts, official stats (ONS) will tell you that the use of ZHC type employment has increased 4 fold since 2000. 3% of the workforce are now on ZHCs


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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 30 Apr 2021, 12:12 pm

JAS wrote:

Which one? The growth of the Gig economy? Do you seriously need evidence to confirm that there has been a massive growth in the gig economy, particularly lower income Zero hour contract work?.

Yes I'm well aware that as a former freelancer I was a part of the gig economy for over 20 years and it suited me as it did many other IT professionals. So using the particular term gig economy might not have been the best choice of wording.

In terms of Zero hours contracts, official stats (ONS) will tell you that the use of ZHC type employment has increased 4 fold since 2000. 3% of the workforce are now on ZHCs


Your statement was 'the gig economy does suit some people but doesn't suit far more'. That is the statement that needs backing up, it's an oft repeated phrase but one rarely backed up with any actual data.

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Post by McLaren Fri 30 Apr 2021, 1:38 pm

Soul

I suspect what you are looking for lies in this report or a more recent verion.

https://www.cipd.co.uk/Images/zero-hours-and-short-hours-contracts-in-the-uk_2015-employer-employee-perspectives_tcm18-10713.pdf
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Post by beninho Fri 30 Apr 2021, 6:49 pm

Well London will quire easily keep a Labour mayor. Though, the tory is so bad. I don't think they actually cared when they chose him. And Fox...hahahaha

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Post by dynamark Thu 06 May 2021, 1:34 pm

Bit of unwelcome news - Lutterworth golf clubhouse totally destroyed by a nightime fire earlier this week and I mean totally all thats left is a twisted steel frame.The clubhouse is well set back and not visible from the road so presumably went unoticed until it was too late.Club over 100 years old has lost all of its history not to mention the shop stock,offices etc .Fairly modern clubhouse and a financially sound set up.Lots of hep offered by other clubs though so Im sure they will eventually recover.

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Post by McLaren Thu 06 May 2021, 7:06 pm

Terrible news dyna. Most members will have fond memories of their clubhouse.
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Post by dynamark Fri 07 May 2021, 8:04 am

Morning local news police have declared it was arson so not sure who they had upset.From the overhead film it looked like the shop still had a roof on it the only part of the building that did so a bit of hope for the pro who is an old friend.Little story about this course the 18th is a shortish par 4 steep down and up hill and there used to be a large mature tree smack in the middle of the fairway right on a good driving distance.Greenkeeper came in one morning and the tree had been cut down !! Greenkeeping kit is in a seperate building thankfully.
Ouch for labour -facing a meltdown

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Post by JAS Fri 07 May 2021, 8:56 am

dynamark wrote:Morning local news police have declared it was arson so not sure who they had upset.From the overhead film it looked like the shop still had a roof on it the only part of the building that did so a bit of hope for the pro who is an old friend.Little story about this course the 18th is a shortish par 4 steep down and up hill and there used to be a large mature tree smack in the middle of the fairway right on a good driving distance.Greenkeeper came in one morning and the tree had been cut down !! Greenkeeping kit is in a seperate building thankfully.
Ouch for labour -facing a meltdown

Didn't somebody else report a big clubhouse fire not so long ago? Does make one think about the possibilities, was it a)unthinking vandals b) some psycho malcontent with a grudge or c) an insurance scam?

Re meltdown, yup!! How any of them thought they could just change leader and things would suddenly be better just beggars belief. Yes there are a degree of mitigating circumstances/explanations but it's quite clear that whatever their message is they either a) cant get their message across or worse b) they haven't really decided what their actual message/vision is.

Specifically re Hartlepool, It's the size of the swing away that's galling. The Tories benefitted from The Brexit party not being there this time, they were a good 3rd last time round and so most of their votes will have been mopped up by the Tories. But even allowing for that the Labour vote STILL dropped itself. Brain dead decision to put an arch remainer (who lost a seat in 2019) up as a candidate in a seat that voted 70% leave. That probably beefed up the scale of the defeat but who knows, lets see how much further the pendulum swings away from them in the locals

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Post by George1507 Fri 07 May 2021, 9:40 am

There are a lot of clubhouses in the UK dating from the 1920s to the 1960s that are really no longer fit for purpose. Many of them are too big, don't offer the right balance of facilities, are inefficient and costly to heat.

Without accusing anyone of anything, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these were insurance scams. "All we need is a fire" is an oft heard statement in committee meetings.

Also, over time, well meaning members have "helped" with things like electrical upgrades, leaving clubhouses with dangerous and hard to trace undocumented wiring.

Quite often when I go to a course, I sit and look at the clubhouse and wonder what was originally intended, and how it ended up looking like it does. What sort of golf club ever thought that a ballroom was an affordable, efficient use of space?


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Post by dynamark Fri 07 May 2021, 10:25 am

This clubhouse is/was pretty modern I couldnt put a date on it but maybe 80,s and the club have just got planning for 40 houses on some unused land adjacent so I doubt there is any financial/ insurance motive here.Well designed with a covered walkway from the carpark through to the front of the clubhouse/shop/course.Everything to the clubhouse and changing room side has gone but the right side which is the shop/stores looks relatively intact although from my experience water can do pretty severe damage after the event.

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