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The World Test Championship Final 2021

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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jun 2021, 4:23 pm

The World Test Championship has been something that many of us wanted for a long time, it took time to materialize, and in the middle changed the point system as the pandemic struck. There are imperfections and work need to be done to make more rounded. But it is a great initiative for the truest format. And I feel it merits a separat thread, outside the Rest of the World stuff...
India and New Zealand will be contesting for the first Championship title from 18th June. Both these sides have had some impressive success on way to the final. India's series win against Australia has to be their performance of the cycle, while New Zealand had a fine home record and then they capped it with a first series win in more than 20 years in England just before the final.
Both the sides have also shown some fine bench strength in recent times. India won in Australia effectively without Kohli, and for parts of the series, Jasprit Bumrah, Ravindra Jadeja, Ravichandran Ashwin, Mohammad Shami, Umesh Yadav, Rohit Sharma, and Ishant Sharma who couldn't even make it to the touring party as he was injured. Jadeja and Shami were unavailable for their home series win against England as well. In their absence, Mohammad Siraj, Washington Sundar, Axar Patel, Shubman Gill, Shardul Thakur, all emerged and Gill has become first choice and Siraj has become first choice squad at the very least. All the original first choice players are now available in the extended squad.
As for New Zealand, their most recent test win, a demolition job on England was achieved with the world number one test batter and their skipper Kane Williamson, Tim Southee, Kyle Jamieson and BJ Watling. Devon Conwy has emerged and has suggested tha he has it in him to solve a major problem New Zealand have had even during this winning run, that of a partner for Tom Latham. Will Young's emergence indicates that even if the 37 year old Ross Taylor decides to move on, they have options. Matthew Henry and Douglas Bracewell are very capable first reserves with a taste of and some success in test cricket, and in Tom Blundell, they have an able replacement for the retiring BJ Watling behind the stumps.
This strong bench strength also introduces some selection dilemmas for both sides as far as the final is concerned. Will it be Ashwin and Jadeja both for India? Will it be the first choice attack of Bumrah, Shami and Ishant, or will Siraj make it ahead of Ishant? Or will they go in with all 4 with Jadeja batting 7?
Will New Zealand bench one of their established pace quartet to include a spinner? Or will they play all 4 and the skippr himself take on the spin bowling responsibilities? Or will young Rachin Ravindra be given a surprise debut in the all-rounder slot? If they decide to bench one of the pacers, who would that be? Jamieson is the least experienced of the group but he has fine success against India. Southee and Boult have primed themselves quite fine leading up to the match. Neil Wagner did lack a bit of rhythm in the England series but finished it pretty well. Will be a very tough call for Williamson.
There is a lot exciting in the build-up to the game itself. Hope it will produce great excitement in terms of the actual cricket, like the last ICC event final!

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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Jun 2021, 5:00 pm

Reserve day in place for the final, but it will only be used if time is lost on days 1-5 through rain or bad light. If it's a draw after a full five days have been played, the reserve day won't be used, and the trophy will be shared (and shared if it's a tie; no boundary count!).

Think New Zealand are big favourites. The two test warm-ups they've had will have given them a huge bonus in terms of preparation, getting used to conditions, and being sharp enough for test cricket. By contrast, India haven't played any international cricket since the England tour in March.

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Post by msp83 Sun 13 Jun 2021, 6:41 pm

Duty281 wrote:Reserve day in place for the final, but it will only be used if time is lost on days 1-5 through rain or bad light. If it's a draw after a full five days have been played, the reserve day won't be used, and the trophy will be shared (and shared if it's a tie; no boundary count!).

Think New Zealand are big favourites. The two test warm-ups they've had will have given them a huge bonus in terms of preparation, getting used to conditions, and being sharp enough for test cricket. By contrast, India haven't played any international cricket since the England tour in March.
Wouldn't call New Zealand big favorites. But yes, think its advantage New Zealand. They are better conditioned going into the game. India have been away from the longer format for 3 months now and haven't had any proper actual match practice either. Last time the 2 sides met, a first choice Indian batting lineup barring injured Rohit Sharma, collapsed in all 4 innings. Since then, though, Rohit, and new lad Shubman Gill have given greater stability at the top... And the lineup performed brilliantly in Australia against a quality attack. If we do a player to player advantage analysis,
Rohit- Latham Latham
Gill-Conway equal
Pujara-Williamson Williamson
Kohli-Taylor Kohli
Rahane-Nicholls Rahane
Pant-Watling Equal?
Jadeja-Mitchell/de Grandhomme Jadeja
Bumrah-Southee Bumrah
Ishant-Wagner equal
Shami-Boult Boult.
Among Ashwin/Siraj/Jamieson/Ajaz, who all will play?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 14 Jun 2021, 7:42 am

The forecast is absolutely terrible
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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 8:25 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The forecast is absolutely terrible
So, will the 6th day come in handy or it is beyond hope?

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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 10:58 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The forecast is absolutely terrible

Friday doesn't look great, Sunday/Tuesday maybe a little bit of rain, the rest looks fine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2637487

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 14 Jun 2021, 11:19 am

I'd expect the New Zealand bowlers to run through the Indian batting line up, it's then a case of them scoring enough.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:39 pm

if Ind win the toss ( and get to bat first hence bowl last) India is 90-10 favorite to win
Otherwise it's 50-50
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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:58 pm

KP_fan wrote:if Ind win the toss ( and  get to bat first hence bowl last) India is 90-10 favorite to win
Otherwise it's 50-50

laughing

NZ are favourites if India win the toss; overwhelming favourites if NZ win the toss.

India's batsmen are woeful in English conditions, especially with the dark cloud predicted to be around. NZ's batsmen are normally better anyway, but they've also had the huge advantage of playing two warm-up tests, while the Indians will be coming in cold.

NZ also have a better seam bowling attack than India. India are obviously better in the spin department, but that's not going to be a big factor.

New Zealand 13/8 to win. Fantastic odds provided the rain stays away long enough to make it a game.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 2:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:if Ind win the toss ( and  get to bat first hence bowl last) India is 90-10 favorite to win
Otherwise it's 50-50

laughing

NZ are favourites if India win the toss; overwhelming favourites if NZ win the toss.

India's batsmen are woeful in English conditions, especially with the dark cloud predicted to be around. NZ's batsmen are normally better anyway, but they've also had the huge advantage of playing two warm-up tests, while the Indians will be coming in cold.

NZ also have a better seam bowling attack than India. India are obviously better in the spin department, but that's not going to be a big factor.

New Zealand 13/8 to win. Fantastic odds provided the rain stays away long enough to make it a game.

The definition of Woeful The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f447
ENGLAND TOTAL (41.1 Ov) 122
The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f601
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 14 Jun 2021, 2:03 pm

Has this got anything to do with England? Or are you just being a WUM?

Lords 2018

India 1st Innings 107 (35.2 overs)
India 2nd Innings 130 (47 overs)

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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 2:26 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:if Ind win the toss ( and  get to bat first hence bowl last) India is 90-10 favorite to win
Otherwise it's 50-50

laughing

NZ are favourites if India win the toss; overwhelming favourites if NZ win the toss.

India's batsmen are woeful in English conditions, especially with the dark cloud predicted to be around. NZ's batsmen are normally better anyway, but they've also had the huge advantage of playing two warm-up tests, while the Indians will be coming in cold.

NZ also have a better seam bowling attack than India. India are obviously better in the spin department, but that's not going to be a big factor.

New Zealand 13/8 to win. Fantastic odds provided the rain stays away long enough to make it a game.

The definition of Woeful The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f447
ENGLAND  TOTAL (41.1 Ov) 122
The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f601

I wasn't aware this had anything to do with England. I have been critical of England's batting on here, as my posting history can attest. I'm also critical of India's woeful batting in English conditions. The likes of Pujara, Rahane, Kohli (and more) have poor averages in England. NZ will exploit that.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 5:19 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Has this got anything to do with England?

The term Woeful has been used so someone needs to set a reference bar for that term

And that's that being bowled out in your backyard for 100 odd & lose in your preferred conditions, your own made pitch, neutra-neutral umpires in 3 days The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f608
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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 5:44 pm

Woeful is just a word meaning 'very bad'. And the last time India were in England they were bowled out for sub-200 scores four times in ten innings, and only made over 350 once in those ten innings.

That's a woeful return. Things weren't massively different in 2014 either (couple of higher scores, but also a few lower ones).

India are going to struggle with the bat v New Zealand. I don't think New Zealand will have the same issue.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 6:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:Woeful is just a word meaning 'very bad'. And the last time India were in England they were bowled out for sub-200 scores four times in ten innings, and only made over 350 once in those ten innings.

That's a woeful return. Things weren't massively different in 2014 either (couple of higher scores, but also a few lower ones).

India are going to struggle with the bat v New Zealand. I don't think New Zealand will have the same issue.

Small is a word...but when you put it in context of shirt sizes it is defined as about 38-39
There are times when subjectives words need an objective measure to define them accurately.

I define woeful here as being dismissed for 100dd and losing test in 3 odd days in home conditions, in your backyard on a self made pitch
Please note the operative part of the definition is in bold and not italics

Re: India being bad/ troubled etc....we had this discussion during the Ind-Eng test series and you and I putting our exepcted scoreline for the series.
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Post by Duty281 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 6:08 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Woeful is just a word meaning 'very bad'. And the last time India were in England they were bowled out for sub-200 scores four times in ten innings, and only made over 350 once in those ten innings.

That's a woeful return. Things weren't massively different in 2014 either (couple of higher scores, but also a few lower ones).

India are going to struggle with the bat v New Zealand. I don't think New Zealand will have the same issue.

Small is a word...but when you put it in context of shirt sizes it is defined as about 38-39
There are times when subjectives words need an objective measure to define them accurately.

I define woeful here as being dismissed for 100dd and losing test in 3 odd days in home conditions, in your backyard on a self made pitch
Please note the operative part of the definition is in bold and not italics

Re: India being bad/ troubled etc....we had this discussion during the Ind-Eng test series and you and I putting our exepcted scoreline for the series.

OK, I define 'woeful' by what the dictionary tells me, which is 'very bad'.

Hence both India's test batting in England and England's recent performance v NZ would be classed as 'woeful'.

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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 7:40 pm

Kohli's last England tour, don't think anyone would say that was a woeful batting display from him. Pujara's reemergence as one of India's batting kingpins started in England before he went ahead and had that fabulous series in Australia in 2018-19. Rishabh Pant scored his debut test ton in England. Kohli and Pujara had allmighty struggles in 2014, but had become much better by 2018. Ajinkya Rahane though, having held the Indian batting together along with Murali Vijay in 2018, had entered a kind of decline.
The Indian batters, while have become reasonably adept at handling seam, really struggles against swing. That is true. But they aren't alone in that department. New Zealand do have the Boult-Southee opening attack, arguably the best swing partnership in the world. But Mohammad Shami and Jasprit Bumrah are not bad at all in that department.
The major advantage New Zealand have is the 2 test series they have had against England wherein they smashed the home team in their backyard and their squad has got a good run. Boult and Southee are well primed, and a long-running problem at the top, seems to have been fixed with Conway's emergence. The out of form Ross Taylor got among the runs too.
If there is considerable swing, the Indian batting is likely to struggle a touch more than that of New Zealand, and it would r3equire someone to produce an individual batting performance of absolute brilliance. But if it is a lively seaming pitch, India will not only have the bowling, but a batting lineup that can put as good a performance as that of New Zealand. And if spin becomes a factor, India have the best spin combination in the world in Ashwin and Jadeja, and Ajaz Patel would be country-miles away from them. And though the Indians don't play spin well as much as they used to do during the Tendulkar-Sidhu-Azhar-Dravid-Ganguly-Sehwag days, they still are miles better than New Zealand in playing spin.
So slight advantage New Zealand I would say.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 9:37 pm

msp83 wrote:Kohli's last England tour, don't think anyone would say that was a woeful batting display from him. Pujara's reemergence as one of India's batting kingpins started in England before he went ahead and had that fabulous series in Australia in 2018-19. Rishabh Pant scored his debut test ton in England. Kohli and Pujara had allmighty struggles in 2014, but had become much better by 2018. Ajinkya Rahane though, having held the Indian batting together along with Murali Vijay in 2018, had entered a kind of decline.
The Indian batters, while have become reasonably adept at handling seam, really struggles against swing. That is true. But they aren't alone in that department. New Zealand do have the Boult-Southee opening attack, arguably the best swing partnership in the world. But Mohammad Shami and Jasprit Bumrah are not bad at all in that department.
The major advantage New Zealand have is the 2 test series they have had against England wherein they smashed the home team in their backyard and their squad has got a good run. Boult and Southee are well primed, and a long-running problem at the top, seems to have been fixed with Conway's emergence. The out of form Ross Taylor got among the runs too.
If there is considerable swing, the Indian batting is likely to struggle a touch more than that of New Zealand, and it would r3equire someone to produce an individual batting performance of absolute brilliance. But if it is a lively seaming pitch, India will not only have the bowling, but a batting lineup that can put as good a performance as that of New Zealand. And if spin becomes a factor, India have the best spin combination in the world in Ashwin and Jadeja, and Ajaz Patel would be country-miles away from them. And though the Indians don't play spin well as much as they used to do during the Tendulkar-Sidhu-Azhar-Dravid-Ganguly-Sehwag days, they still are miles better than New Zealand in playing spin.
So slight advantage New Zealand I would say.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/wtc-final-pitch-ind-vs-nz-southampton-curator-aims-for-pace-bounce-and-carry-1266382

"Pace just makes red-ball cricket exciting, I'm a cricket fan and I want to produce a pitch where the cricket lovers have to watch every ball in case they miss something, be that some class batting or an amazing spell of bowling. A maiden over can be quite exciting if it's a battle of skill between both bowler and batter. So, yeah, if we can get some pace and bounce in the pitch, but not too one-sided towards seam movement, we'll be happy."

from his talk, the curator seems to be trying to make an Australian pitch The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f62e
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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Jun 2021, 9:34 am

New Zealand WTC final squad Tom Latham, Devon Conway, Kane Williamson, Ross Taylor, Henry Nicholls, Will Young, BJ Watling, Tom Blundell, Colin de Grandhomme, Kyle Jamieson, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Ajaz Patel, Trent Boult, Matt Henry

NZ have a tough job picking the 11
-5 specialist bowlers or 4+CDGH
-Does Ajaz get into the 11
--assuming Ajaz is in ...who are the top 3 seamers? Boult, Southee and Wagner...means Henry and Jamieson out?


India's pick is straightforward ....and the choice is between Jadeja and Vihari.....Jadeja wins hands down but for Kohli's over complicated thinking

The first 4 bowlers will be Ashwin, Bumrah, Shami, Ishant
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 15 Jun 2021, 9:42 am

To be honest, with the forecast and unless the pitch is a dustbowl, if I was NZ I would be fully backing the strength of the seam attack and going with Southee/Boult/Jamieson/Wagner along with De Grandhomme.
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Post by Duty281 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:16 am

Yeah, if I were New Zealand, I wouldn't bother with a spinner. Trust Southee/Boult/Jamieson/Wagner to do the damage with the ball, have De Grandhomme on standby to tie down an end if necessary. Seems harsh on Henry to miss out, but that's the way it goes.

I'd go with Young and Conway as the openers (though I'm expecting Latham over Young), then Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls and Watling to fill out the top six.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Jun 2021, 2:33 pm

Team India announced their 15-member squad- V Kohli (C), A Rahane (VC), R Sharma, S Gill, C Pujara, H Vihari, R Pant, W Saha, R Ashwin, R Jadeja, J Bumrah, Ishant Sharma, Mohammad Shami, U Yadav & Md. Siraj for the World Test Championship 21 Final: BCCI

Siraj, Yadav, Vihari and Saha to sit out


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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 2:49 pm

KP_fan wrote:Team India announced their 15-member squad- V Kohli (C), A Rahane (VC), R Sharma, S Gill, C Pujara, H Vihari, R Pant, W Saha, R Ashwin, R Jadeja, J Bumrah, Ishant Sharma, Mohammad Shami, U Yadav & Md. Siraj for the World Test Championship 21 Final: BCCI

Siraj, Yadav, Vihari and Saha to sit out


Umesh and Saha only as cover, no place in a first choice 11. But the rest a bit complicated. I am coming around to playing both Ashwin and Jadeja if there is some spin available. Else, going in with all 4 quicks ( the first 3 and Siraj) and Jadeja. Ashwin's reestablished himself as the number 1 spinner and his overseas record has improved over the last few years. But Jadeja didn't drop down because he performed poorly. And Jadu certainly is now miles ahead of Ashwin with the bat, despite Ashwin finding his batting mojo against England. I would say Jadeja is as good or better with the bat than Vihari. and in the choice between the 2, it has to be Jadeja hands down. But you never know with Virat. The way India should look at it is, Jadeja or Vihari? I would go in with Jadeja.
Ashwin or Siraj? I would go according to conditions. Siraj had an impressive A tour to England a couple of years ago and he has certainly pushed the first 3 quicks and pushed Umesh down the pecking order to become the first reserve. But playing Siraj means will have nothing in terms of batting in the lower order. Bumrah and Siraj are classic number 11s, and Ishant and Shami are number 11s who can bat 10.
The safest choice is to go in with Ashwin and the top 3 quicks, and Jadeja as the all-rounder. If the conditions are really conducive to swing, think Siraj should be played ahead of Ishant as he's more skilled in that department.
As for me it is a question of selecting from the 12 meaning Saha, Umesh and Vihari sit out. For Kohli, Vihari might also come into the equation

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Jun 2021, 3:06 pm

Msp,
When there is anything in the pitch for seamers by way of seam movement or Bounce...Ashwin thrives on it...and ... he proved that in Australia and even Eng before that in the first two tests before he injured / fatigued in hand/ arm

Jadeja is playing like a batsman who is no worse than Vihari...and that's true given his recent form with the bat has been quite good.
With the added advantage that Jadeja can in the first inning hold one end with ball, keep it tight and let main bowlers have a respite for 10 odd overs.
And if there is any purchase in the pitch.....Jadeja comes into play as a deadly bowler in 2nd inning.

Ashwin as 4th bowler over Siraj gives additional depth with the bat also...which is very essential
I see No way really that Ind can avoid playing Jadeja and Ashwin both

For the sake of theoretical argument if Pandya was fit and in squad.....he might have played ahead of Jadeja.
Ashwin would still have been the 4th bowler.....he is a first inning wicket taker now in bouncy / seaming conditions

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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 6:51 pm

As for New Zealand, I am a strong believer that unless the conditions are some much unusal, you should go in with a spinner. That's where New Zealand have pushed themselves into a corner by not providing Rachin Ravindra a run in the England series, and then dropping him from the squad. Meaning Ajaz Patel has to play. But Patel is a mediocre bowler, and the 4 quicks that New Zealand have got, are all excellent. Young Jamieson has a good early record, particularly against India, and the other 3 are generation defining for New Zealand. But playing Jamieson at 7 is a risk, the lad has promise and one day he may be able to bat there, but surely not there at the moment. Southee, Wagner or Boult, none of them are number 11 material but neither are they bowling all-rounders, more number 9 and 10. With the squad they've got, perhaps going in with de Grandhomme and the 4 quicks would make more sense.

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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 7:12 pm

KP_fan wrote:Msp,
When there is anything in the pitch for seamers by way of seam movement or Bounce...Ashwin thrives on it...and  ... he proved that in Australia and even Eng before that in the first two tests before he injured / fatigued in hand/ arm

Jadeja is playing like a batsman who is no worse than Vihari...and that's true given his recent form with the bat has been quite good.
With the added advantage that Jadeja can in the first inning hold one end with ball, keep it tight and let main bowlers have a respite for 10 odd overs.
And if there is any purchase in the pitch.....Jadeja comes into play as a deadly bowler in 2nd inning.

Ashwin as 4th bowler over Siraj  gives additional depth with the bat also...which is very essential
I see No way really that Ind can avoid playing Jadeja and Ashwin both

For the sake of theoretical argument if Pandya was fit and in squad.....he might have played ahead of Jadeja.
Ashwin would still have been the 4th bowler.....he is a first inning wicket taker now in bouncy / seaming conditions

KPF,
Yes, the case for Jadeja is unarguable. I'd have played him ahead of Pandya even, Jadeja is a far better test bat than Pandya, and even in non-helpful conditions, Jadeja's accuracy as a bowler is likely to be more handy than the 8 or 10 overs that Pandya might offer. Ashwin surely is a somewhat better wicket-taking bowler in the first innings in non-spinning conditions, but on a flat pitch, Jadeja's accuracy can have its own effect as he showed in Australia. After destroying sides in spinning conditions, Jadeja had turned a bit one-trick bowler for a while, but in Australia and even previous couple of away tours he showed he has overcome that face. variation of pace, different release points and even giving the ball more air, Jadeja is adding more and more nuances to his bowling, so even in the first innings, I wouldn't consider him only as a defensive option.
As for the Ashwin v Siraj question, it is been Siraj's performances that is creating these questions. In the limited opportunities that he has got, he has really shown, both home and away. But yes, the lad can't hold a bat, and that in itself tips the scales towards Ashwin.
Do you see a Ishant or Siraj question by the way? Siraj had clearly outbowled his senior partner in the England series. and stood up well in his absence in Australia. And he is more suited to swinging conditions than Ishant is.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Jun 2021, 7:58 pm

msp83 wrote:As for New Zealand, I am a strong believer that unless the conditions are some much unusal, you should go in with a spinner. That's where New Zealand have pushed themselves into a corner by not providing Rachin Ravindra a run in the England series, and then dropping him from the squad. Meaning Ajaz Patel has to play. But Patel is a mediocre bowler, and the 4 quicks that New Zealand have got, are all excellent. Young Jamieson has a good early record, particularly against India, and the other 3 are generation defining for New Zealand. But playing Jamieson at 7 is a risk, the lad has promise and one day he may be able to bat there, but surely not there at the moment. Southee, Wagner or Boult, none of them are number 11 material but neither are they bowling all-rounders, more number 9 and 10. With the squad they've got, perhaps going in with de Grandhomme and the 4 quicks would make more sense.

They must play Patel and they will....India gives bucket load of wickets to spinners at home and in overseas tests too....Moeen, Lyon Leach all have Indian wickets under their belt.
you are right they cannot have Jamieson and Patel both in addition to their top 3 seamers......Jamieson might sit out for CDGH
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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Jun 2021, 8:17 pm

msp83 wrote:  

KPF,
Yes, the case for Jadeja is unarguable. I'd have played him ahead of Pandya even, Jadeja is a far better test bat than Pandya, and even in non-helpful conditions, Jadeja's accuracy as a bowler is likely to be more handy than the 8 or 10 overs that Pandya might offer. Ashwin surely is a somewhat better wicket-taking bowler in the first innings in non-spinning conditions, but on a flat pitch, Jadeja's accuracy can have its own effect as he showed in Australia. After destroying sides in spinning conditions, Jadeja had turned a bit one-trick bowler for a while, but in Australia and even previous couple of away tours he showed he has overcome that face. variation of pace, different release points and even giving the ball more air, Jadeja is adding more and more nuances to his bowling, so even in the first innings, I wouldn't consider him only as a defensive option.
As for the Ashwin v Siraj question, it is been Siraj's performances that is creating these questions. In the limited opportunities that he has got, he has really shown, both home and away. But yes, the lad can't hold a bat, and that in itself tips the scales towards Ashwin.
Do you see a Ishant or Siraj question by the way? Siraj had clearly outbowled his senior partner in the England series. and stood up well in his absence in Australia. And he is more suited to swinging conditions than Ishant is.
[/quote]

Ashwin's wickets in Aus, in the first two tests vs Eng in Eng, his general ability to be an almost new ball first change bowler, his runs with the bat ...his seniority factor...all put together make his a certainty

Jadeja we all agree hold place as a batsman alone over Vihari ....and his bowling can be anywhere between useful to deadly depending on conditions....he too is in.

The question of Ishant vs Siraj is a valid and good one...they are both one of a kind ...right arm fast medium incutters as the stock delivery and the one that straightens as the variations
Somehow Siraj looks more likely to pick wickets than Ishat but two things go in favor of Ishant

1-He is half a yard faster inspite of the  advanced stage & age his career is in. He will operate in the 135-145kph channel...while Siraj is in 133-138kph

2-Kohli considers Ishant his boy and feels obligated with a sense of Loyalty to give him a preference I sense

So without a shadow of doubt...Ishant will be in the starting 11....but during the Eng series for sure Siraj will have his chances...as its a long tour.....bowlers will breakdown or need to be rotated.
Siraj needs to bowl at the top end of his  pace to survive with Kohli...because Kohli is a tough taskmaster shows his bowler the speed gun on the scoreboard & Demands Pace and eggs his trio to match each other
Kohli Proudly remarked in one of his interviews that during the last Eng and last Aust tours "His Trio" were the top 3 fastest bowlers on both sides in some of the test matches....all three of them hitting 90+mph ( 145kph)

That's why he gave a run to Saini who was reputed to be in the 145-150 kph range but did not live upto his expectation in Aus when given chance...and therefore dumped
and his new Express-Kid is Prasidha Krishna in the squad instead of Bhuvi who I would have liked to see ahead of both Prasidha and Yadav
Therefore Siraj need to bump his pace up a bit if he has to survive in Kohli regime
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Post by JDizzle Tue 15 Jun 2021, 8:25 pm

Ishant is also very dangerous vs left handers, especially in England, with his natural delivery the one that shapes to first slip. With NZ opening with Conway and Latham, and also Nicholls, Ishant has to play.

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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 8:54 pm

Ishant 2.0 is also a wicket-taker unlike the irritating Unlucky Ishant of earlier years. Think it'll be tough to not play him. But Siraj is giving both Ishant and Mohammad Shami a serious push. And his presence means that Bumrah can be rested from time to time without the attack losing everything.
Think I am also coming round to KPF's 11.
Rohit
Gill
Pujara
Kohli
Rahane
Pant
Jadeja
Ashwin
Ishant
Shami
Bumrah
Hope Kohli doesn't have one of his revelatory moments on the eve of the game and mess up the selections.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 16 Jun 2021, 11:54 am

Weather update:

Friday - Rain throughout. Will be surprised if there's any play.
Saturday - Dry. Should get a full day.
Sunday - Should get at least half a day's play from the late afternoon. First half of the day it's about 50-50 as to whether there's any rain.
Monday - 50-50 at the moment. Could be completely rained off. Could get a full day in.
Tuesday - Mostly dry, small chance of rain early on. Should get a full day.
Wednesday - Reserve day. Small chance of rain throughout, but still a little too early to tell for definite.

No better than cautious optimism that we'll get a positive result.

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Post by alfie Wed 16 Jun 2021, 1:10 pm

KP_fan wrote:
msp83 wrote:As for New Zealand, I am a strong believer that unless the conditions are some much unusal, you should go in with a spinner. That's where New Zealand have pushed themselves into a corner by not providing Rachin Ravindra a run in the England series, and then dropping him from the squad. Meaning Ajaz Patel has to play. But Patel is a mediocre bowler, and the 4 quicks that New Zealand have got, are all excellent. Young Jamieson has a good early record, particularly against India, and the other 3 are generation defining for New Zealand. But playing Jamieson at 7 is a risk, the lad has promise and one day he may be able to bat there, but surely not there at the moment. Southee, Wagner or Boult, none of them are number 11 material but neither are they bowling all-rounders, more number 9 and 10. With the squad they've got, perhaps going in with de Grandhomme and the 4 quicks would make more sense.

They must play Patel and they will....India gives bucket load of wickets to spinners at home and in overseas tests too....Moeen, Lyon  Leach all have Indian wickets under their belt.
you are right they cannot have Jamieson and Patel both in addition to their top 3 seamers......Jamieson might sit out for CDGH

I would be absolutely astonished if NZ left out Jamieson. Quite apart from his extremely effective bowling he's the best of the bowling options with the bat . Five pace bowlers (even if one is just there for a bit of stock bowling and his batting skills) seems a bit overdone so it is possible they include Patel and omit CDG (which does leave a bit of a tail) . Alternatively they could play an extra batsman and hope the four main pace men can do the job with the ball. (Williamson filling in with a few overs) think that is unlikely ; but if there is a fair
bit of rain about , maybe.

Do not claim to know what India will do , though the top six look pretty obvious. (And I would certainly be picking Jadeja) They are coming in a bit cold , different conditions from recent games : they'll know which of their players are most "ready" no doubt. Given the strength they have shown in reserve lately I reckon whoever they put on the field will be tough to beat .

Two very good teams . Could go either way...I am leaning to NZ ; but prepared to be proved wrong. Hope the weather allows a proper match.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 16 Jun 2021, 9:29 pm

Way I see it

NZ side is;
Latham, Conway, Williamson, Taylor, Nichols, Watling (wk), De Grandhomme, Jamieson, Southee, Wagner, Boult

If they do want to play a spinner, I would reluctantly leave out Wagner for Patel. I wouldn’t do this, and I don’t think NZ will either…I think they see that XI as their strongest one.

India side;
Gill, Rohit, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Pant (wk), Jadeja, Ashwin, Shami, Ishant, Bumrah

I think the India side is fairly more predictable. Only real decision imo is between Siraj and Shami for the third seamer role, but I think it has to be Shami

Should be a great game!
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Post by msp83 Thu 17 Jun 2021, 7:47 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Way I see it

NZ side is;
Latham, Conway, Williamson, Taylor, Nichols, Watling (wk), De Grandhomme, Jamieson, Southee, Wagner, Boult

If they do want to play a spinner, I would reluctantly leave out Wagner for Patel. I wouldn’t do this, and I don’t think NZ will either…I think they see that XI as their strongest one.

India side;
Gill, Rohit, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Pant (wk), Jadeja, Ashwin, Shami, Ishant, Bumrah

I think the India side is fairly more predictable. Only real decision imo is between Siraj and Shami for the third seamer role, but I think it has to be Shami

Should be a great game!
Siraj can challenge both Ishant and Shami. But think the veterans have done enough to retain their spots as of now. Shami hasn't had any long format cricket after the first test in Australia. But he is the most complete bowler in the Indian lineup after Bumrah. Swing, seam, pace, reverse... And some times comes off with the bat when he goes swinging for the next continent!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 17 Jun 2021, 11:28 am

Going to need to get lucky with the weather, forecast is not good for Friday or Sunday (better Saturday/Monday).
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Post by KP_fan Thu 17 Jun 2021, 3:00 pm

Team India's Playing XI announced For WTC Final
Playing XI of Team India: Shubman Gill, Rohit Sharma, Cheteshwar Pujara, Virat Kohli (C), Ajinkya Rahane (VC), Rishabh Pant (WK), Ravichandran Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Jasprit Bumrah, Ishant Sharma and Mohammed Shami


Sigh of Relief...
Kohli did not try to act too clever and pull rabbit to surprise opponent & shoot himself in the foot in the process
Well begun is job half done
Now win the toss and we are three quarters thru The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f601
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Post by Duty281 Thu 17 Jun 2021, 3:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:Weather update:

Friday - Rain throughout. Will be surprised if there's any play.
Saturday - Dry. Should get a full day.
Sunday - Should get at least half a day's play from the late afternoon. First half of the day it's about 50-50 as to whether there's any rain.
Monday - 50-50 at the moment. Could be completely rained off. Could get a full day in.
Tuesday - Mostly dry, small chance of rain early on. Should get a full day.
Wednesday - Reserve day. Small chance of rain throughout, but still a little too early to tell for definite.

No better than cautious optimism that we'll get a positive result.

Looking a lot better now. Saturday, Tuesday and Wednesday should be full days of play. Sunday and Monday should be half days at worst. Even Friday may not be a complete wash-out.

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Post by msp83 Thu 17 Jun 2021, 8:16 pm

KP_fan wrote:Team India's Playing XI announced For WTC Final
Playing XI of Team India: Shubman Gill, Rohit Sharma, Cheteshwar Pujara, Virat Kohli (C), Ajinkya Rahane (VC), Rishabh Pant (WK), Ravichandran Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Jasprit Bumrah, Ishant Sharma and Mohammed Shami


Sigh of Relief...
Kohli did not try to act too clever and pull rabbit to surprise opponent & shoot himself in the foot in the process
Well begun is job half done
Now win the toss and we are three quarters thru The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f601
Thankfully, no surprises.
Now lets hope the weather stays good and we have a good game. Looks like the reserve day will surely come into action.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 17 Jun 2021, 8:32 pm

msp83 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Team India's Playing XI announced For WTC Final
Playing XI of Team India: Shubman Gill, Rohit Sharma, Cheteshwar Pujara, Virat Kohli (C), Ajinkya Rahane (VC), Rishabh Pant (WK), Ravichandran Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Jasprit Bumrah, Ishant Sharma and Mohammed Shami


Sigh of Relief...
Kohli did not try to act too clever and pull rabbit to surprise opponent & shoot himself in the foot in the process
Well begun is job half done
Now win the toss and we are three quarters thru The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f601
Thankfully, no surprises.
Now lets hope the weather stays good and we have a good game. Looks like the reserve day will surely come into action.

If NZ bat first they risk losing by an inning without Ind having to bother to enforce follow-on Yahoo
And reserve day may not be used at all
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Post by Duty281 Fri 18 Jun 2021, 9:11 am

Well Southampton certainly hasn't avoided the rain today. Next to zero chance of any play.

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Post by Galted Fri 18 Jun 2021, 11:46 am

KP_fan wrote:
Small is a word...but when you put it in context of shirt sizes it is defined as about 38-39
There are times when subjectives words need an objective measure to define them accurately.


Only just spotted this gem.  Would you say 36 is also a small number?
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Post by Duty281 Fri 18 Jun 2021, 3:00 pm

Play abandoned for the first day.

Saturday and Sunday (plus Wednesday) currently look completely dry, Monday/Tuesday pretty questionable.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 18 Jun 2021, 3:20 pm

Galted wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Small is a word...but when you put it in context of shirt sizes it is defined as about 38-39
There are times when subjectives words need an objective measure to define them accurately.


Only just spotted this gem.  Would you say 36 is also a small number?

Naah...you have a sharp eye....your spotted when it was written
It took you an eon to figure out an answer The World Test Championship Final 2021 1f604
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Post by KP_fan Fri 18 Jun 2021, 3:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:Play abandoned for the first day.

Saturday and Sunday (plus Wednesday) currently look completely dry, Monday/Tuesday pretty questionable.

questionable means?
Washout or chance of some play in
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Post by Duty281 Fri 18 Jun 2021, 6:01 pm

Monday and Tuesday both approaching wash-out territory, which would almost certainly kibosh prospects of a positive result.

Mind you, these forecasts have a habit of changing day-to-day!

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Post by msp83 Fri 18 Jun 2021, 6:09 pm

So the damn weather had the say on day one! Will it just behave to let the game evolve into a result? From all that I've read, seems rather difficult.
Just so unfortunate.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 18 Jun 2021, 6:58 pm

Pretty unlucky - been absolutely scorching the last 2/3 weeks, now this for the final!
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Post by KP_fan Sat 19 Jun 2021, 7:47 am

Day are long now and in fact the longest day will be in the midst of this test

It would be nice to start an hour earlier and go on an hour late to make up lost overs.
The latter they will do I guess....early starts also make sense
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Post by Duty281 Sat 19 Jun 2021, 9:11 am

Duty281 wrote:Monday and Tuesday both approaching wash-out territory, which would almost certainly kibosh prospects of a positive result.

Mind you, these forecasts have a habit of changing day-to-day!

Check the forecast this morning and Tuesday now looks pretty clear! Might get a four-day test in if that holds true.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 19 Jun 2021, 10:05 am

Great attacking captaincy from Williamson - wins the toss and bowls first. Perfect choice to have a go at the under-prepared Indians under clouds and floodlit conditions.

And they've picked four seamers + CDG, no Patel. Strong selection.

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