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England's Summer of Cricket 2021

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Post by msp83 Sat 14 Aug 2021, 6:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Siraj will have a couple of deliveries at Anderson. The lead is already a nice 25.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 15 Aug 2021, 6:17 pm

England 11/10 to win the test. Always worth a top-up.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 15 Aug 2021, 7:49 pm

India has already given themselves a lot to fight with......and every run they add increments fractionally their chance

Pant needs to play normally with Ishant and Bumrah ( who will come next I am sure)
and then go for a slog,
Ball will be new so that will make harder for tailenders
200+ would be nice....but I think the lead will eventually conclude in the  realms of 180 to 190

Ali managed to get the help that end of D4 pitches does offer,......& set panic in the English camp.....for Ind has Jadeja...the best in the world to exploit a wicket gripping and uneven...and he will be bowling on an even more deteriorated pitch.

Fast forward to the end....If India get Root below 50, Ind win
If Root scores a 60 to 70, he will take them thru.
( and if Root falls really cheap, Ind looking at a 50 run win)


Last edited by KP_fan on Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by KP_fan Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:06 pm

Duty281 wrote:Indian browbeating of the umpires eventually works, but it won't save them from defeat. Very Happy

and so that implies that umpires were chicken and so was English team management
That allowed Indians to browbeat them all Very Happy
OR
More likely light was genuinely bad .....and umpires erred in waiting for Indians to demand rather than doing the right thing on their own.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:49 pm

https://twitter.com/yas_wisden/status/1426898522750730242?s=21

Interesting tweet for some perspective re: Sam Curran. Have to admit I would expect his batting average to go up, but guess we will see as time moves on!
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:51 pm

As for the game itself, very intriguingly poised. Anything between 200-220 would be pretty 50/50 in my view, goes without saying that India’s ability to get there depends on Pant and how he goes tomorrow morning.

Should be a fantastic final day - let’s hope the umpires don’t take them off for bad light with floodlights on and spinners bowling eh…
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Post by Jetty Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:47 pm

My thinking is Kohli didn't want Sharma and Pant facing Root and Ali. He wants them facing the new hard ball. Hard to score runs on this wicket against the old ball. So should Root and Ali carry on with the old ball tomorrow? Pant's s/r 48.27 after 30 balls.

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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 6:35 am

Intriguing last day set up.  I see a lot of England confidence on here (Duty particularly certain it is all but over) , Indian pessimism from msp with KP_fan providing an alternative view...
Pundits elsewhere seem to think it is evenly poised : reminders that chasing even 200 on the fifth day doesn't have a great record here. (The statement that even the current target is higher than any achieved here since 2012 doesn't mean much : apart from Ireland being skittled a couple of years back , and NZ falling for 68 in pursuit of 239 , nobody has been dismissed chasing less than 250 since 1955. Lots of draws. ) It is true there have been only three successful chases (ever ) over 200 though. The latest being England v NZ 2004.

You would think the draw is off the table unless India bat to at least lunch so I'd suggest they probably need to add a bit more than 50 to put themselves ahead of the game. If Pant tees off successfully more than fifty could come at a gallop of course ! So England will be wary.

If KP_fan is correct in predicting a target of 180 or so I think England should get it (even , if necessary ,  without a big contribution from Root.) If it gets significantly over 200 it's back in the melting pot. 250 and - well then India are still batting at lunch so the draw takes over after all.

But what do I know Smile  It's a Test Match  - a damned good one - and anything can happen.

What I do know is the eventual light close had nothing to do with Indian demands or chicken-hearted umpires ; but was simply a matter of the light being at a point where England were able to bowl a few more overs of spin only or call for the new ball and stop for the night. Which of course they chose to do to the general satisfaction of both sides. Anything else is just theatre...

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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 7:09 am

On another point : I do fear for the Ashes Tour. Here in Melbourne , after three weeks in lockdown with about 25 Covid cases in the State , we have now been told the lockdown will be extended to early September (at least ! ) and restrictions have been increased to include a 9 PM Curfew ...

You can of course argue about the merits of extreme caution versus trying to "handle" the pandemic : but I have a strong suspicion that this Victorian government will not waver from a determination to eliminate the virus at virtually any cost , even when vaccination rates reach 75 -80% . So the chances of hosting a cricket tour involving teams moving from city to city (currently we don't let anyone come here from Sydney : and all the other states are in and out of closed borders seemingly from day to day) anytime soon seem remote.
Might as well make a call on cancelling the tour sooner rather than later.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 16 Aug 2021, 8:06 am

alfie wrote:On another point : I do fear for the Ashes Tour. Here in Melbourne , after three weeks in lockdown with about 25 Covid cases in the State , we have now been told the lockdown will be extended to early September (at least ! ) and restrictions have been increased to include a 9 PM Curfew ...

You can of course argue about the merits of extreme caution versus trying to "handle" the pandemic : but I have a strong suspicion that this Victorian government will not waver from a determination to eliminate the virus at virtually any cost , even when vaccination rates reach 75 -80% .  So the chances of hosting a cricket tour involving teams moving from city to city (currently we don't let anyone come here from Sydney : and all the other states are in and out of closed borders seemingly from day to day) anytime soon seem remote.
Might as well make a call on cancelling the tour sooner rather than later.

I think it would be better for all involved to cancel it as soon as possible so that England can come up with a contingency of touring elsewhere.

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Post by VTR Mon 16 Aug 2021, 8:22 am

Quite sad that you mention contingency of another tour. Not that your point is wrong, but that is exactly what is likely to happen, rather than give the players the Winter off instead

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Post by Duty281 Mon 16 Aug 2021, 8:30 am

Yes, it would be nice for the England team to have a break. They're already supposed to be going to the West Indies in February/March next year, shortly after the proposed tour of Australia which, incidentally, includes no first-class warm-up games meaning they'll be dropped right in at the deep end. And before the tour to Australia there's a trip to Pakistan to warm-up for the T20 World Cup, happening in Oman and the UAE.

It feels like an endless treadmill. No wonder Stokes has opted to get off for a bit.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 9:17 am

alfie wrote:On another point : I do fear for the Ashes Tour. Here in Melbourne , after three weeks in lockdown with about 25 Covid cases in the State , we have now been told the lockdown will be extended to early September (at least ! ) and restrictions have been increased to include a 9 PM Curfew ...

You can of course argue about the merits of extreme caution versus trying to "handle" the pandemic : but I have a strong suspicion that this Victorian government will not waver from a determination to eliminate the virus at virtually any cost , even when vaccination rates reach 75 -80% .  So the chances of hosting a cricket tour involving teams moving from city to city (currently we don't let anyone come here from Sydney : and all the other states are in and out of closed borders seemingly from day to day) anytime soon seem remote.
Might as well make a call on cancelling the tour sooner rather than later.

Does seem that the logical conclusion from both cricket boards would be to postpone the series for a year - England are due to tour Pakistan in November/December 2022, but I think that could be brought forward a month or so, to then accommodate an Ashes tour

Looking at the schedule below, they can have the ODI tour of Pakistan in October and go right into the test matches in October/November, and then the Ashes start in its usual late November slot.
https://www.cricschedule.com/ftp/team/england.html

Of course the likelihood of the ECB and ACB seeing common sense on scheduling is….slim
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Post by VTR Mon 16 Aug 2021, 9:48 am

Common sense won't come anywhere near it. Fully expect The Ashes to be moved to the UAE or something equally crazy

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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 9:56 am

Morning lads.

I am actually surprised that England are in this position, a position to win the test. There was not even a remote feeling in my body that England would be in this position after the first 2 days of play and if truth be told, i was actually hoping for a draw.
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 16 Aug 2021, 10:23 am

alfie wrote:Intriguing last day set up.  I see a lot of England confidence on here (Duty particularly certain it is all but over) , Indian pessimism from msp with KP_fan providing an alternative view...
Pundits elsewhere seem to think it is evenly poised : reminders that chasing even 200 on the fifth day doesn't have a great record here. (The statement that even the current target is higher than any achieved here since 2012 doesn't mean much : apart from Ireland being skittled a couple of years back , and NZ falling for 68 in pursuit of 239 , nobody has been dismissed chasing less than 250 since 1955. Lots of draws. ) It is true there have been only three successful chases (ever ) over 200 though. The latest being England v NZ 2004.

You would think the draw is off the table unless India bat to at least lunch so I'd suggest they probably need to add a bit more than 50 to put themselves ahead of the game. If Pant tees off successfully more than fifty could come at a gallop of course ! So England will be wary.

If KP_fan is correct in predicting a target of 180 or so I think England should get it (even , if necessary ,  without a big contribution from Root.) If it gets significantly over 200 it's back in the melting pot. 250 and - well then India are still batting at lunch so the draw takes over after all.

But what do I know Smile  It's a Test Match  - a damned good one - and anything can happen.

What I do know is the eventual light close had nothing to do with Indian demands or chicken-hearted umpires ; but was simply a matter of the light being at a point where England were able to bowl a few more overs of spin only or call for the new ball and stop for the night. Which of course they chose to do to the general satisfaction of both sides. Anything else is just theatre...

Alfie - perfect summary of how the match rests and how intriguing it is.

Totally agree as well with your last para about the light close. I don't know if Sir Fred or any other regulars were at Lord's yesterday but I was a mile or so away coming back from the Oval when play at the Test was stopped. It had quite quickly become very dark and the clouds were well spread, not looking as if they would soon drift on. Disappointing decision to come off obviously but I could understand it. I make the point as tv coverage can make the real problem of light seem less than it is.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 10:52 am

Eight overs lost on a Sunday of a test match with perfect weather…

Wonder if that will come into play today…
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Post by Duty281 Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:01 am

And about 12 overs lost on Friday and Saturday due to slow over rates (managed to get a full 90 on Thursday!).

Hopefully won't matter.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:04 am

Wood did his shoulder tumbling at the boudbary to save a run
Its stupid for bowlers to risk their bodies, match prospects and careers for a run or two or few
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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:04 am

No love for this field to start with...too many boundary riders. It's Pant not Bradman. And Jimmy already beat his edge with one...

I get they don't want to leak runs ; but they run the risk of allowing easy singles to nudge the score along.

No Wood. So Robinson and Anderson have the job.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:08 am

Fifth ball of Robinson's over - easy tap and run for a single for Pant. Why is the field not being brought up for ball four onwards?

Never mind the tail. Get Pant in the first thirty minutes and England win.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:09 am

Anderson's ankle is strapped up
They only need to pluck out 4 tailenders
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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:14 am

Heavy over than in context of game 9 runs
lot of runs for a single over
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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:16 am

Pant gone, the end is in sight Very Happy
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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:17 am

5 , 7 8 or 9 runs from each of the remaining will all count

scratch, scrape another 20 or so
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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:18 am

That's a relief ! Good ball from Robinson accounts for Pant...

I didn't like the defensive approach but they've got away with it. Now go for the tail...

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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:19 am

KP_fan wrote:5 , 7 8 or 9 runs from each of the remaining will all count

scratch, scrape another 20 or so

Certainly the plan. Question of whether they can...

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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:24 am

at least nobody has to protect nobody now

Shami muts show some head for a change today for once
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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:24 am

Worst thing for England would be if India set them a total of around 220 with 65 to 70 overs to get it, then Root will have to decide whether or not to shake up the batting order.
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:26 am

eirebilly wrote:Worst thing for England would be if India set them a total of around 220 with 65 to 70 overs to get it, then Root will have to decide whether or not to shake up the batting order.

There isn't a decision to make, Sibley and Burns will open.

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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:27 am

I would suggest there may be a decision to make. Opening with Sibley scoring slowly may be great to soften the ball up but could also see England chasing a win at 4 to 5 runs per over.

The idea must be looked at for me.
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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:28 am

Ishant doing a good job so far...and Shami off the mark too so India will be happy to see there is life beyond Pant...

Sensible tactics I think. Scratching around will just see them nipped out eventually: chancing their arms might bring a few more fours if their luck holds. Lead to 178 already so getting up towards that desired 200.

Wood on the field now so might see some intimidation ?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:28 am

Roots blinked quite quickly and spread the field...bat on abll is a run
Eng missing the exprss pace to dig inot body or york the tailenders
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:29 am

eirebilly wrote:I would suggest there may be a decision to make. Opening with Sibley scoring slowly may be great to soften the ball up but could also see England chasing a win at 4 to 5 runs per over.

The idea must be looked at for me.

At which point they don't go chasing the runs, the target is already too high to faff about with the order.

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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:32 am

eirebilly wrote:I would suggest there may be a decision to make. Opening with Sibley scoring slowly may be great to soften the ball up but could also see England chasing a win at 4 to 5 runs per over.

The idea must be looked at for me.

If it's about 220 , eirebilly , they should have rather more than seventy overs to chase so the run rate isn't really an issue. Can't see India batting thirty overs - and if they did it would probably be a lead of a good deal more ; and probably not one England would be chasing.

Can't really see a scenario here in which a thrash from ball one approach would make sense.

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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:33 am

I would always chase a win where possible, if that meant shaking up the batting order just to give it an initial try then that is exactly what I would do.
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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:34 am

someone tell shami leaving the short balls and ones outside off is also an option

Wood won't play the next game for sure
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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:35 am

alfie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I would suggest there may be a decision to make. Opening with Sibley scoring slowly may be great to soften the ball up but could also see England chasing a win at 4 to 5 runs per over.

The idea must be looked at for me.

If it's about 220 , eirebilly , they should have rather more than seventy overs to chase so the run rate isn't really an issue. Can't see India batting thirty overs - and if they did it would probably be a lead of a good deal more ; and probably not one England would be chasing.

Can't really see a scenario here in which a thrash from ball one approach would make sense.
Not a thrash from ball one approach, just a far more positive approach from ball one than what Sibley provides.
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:35 am

eirebilly wrote:
alfie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I would suggest there may be a decision to make. Opening with Sibley scoring slowly may be great to soften the ball up but could also see England chasing a win at 4 to 5 runs per over.

The idea must be looked at for me.

If it's about 220 , eirebilly , they should have rather more than seventy overs to chase so the run rate isn't really an issue. Can't see India batting thirty overs - and if they did it would probably be a lead of a good deal more ; and probably not one England would be chasing.

Can't really see a scenario here in which a thrash from ball one approach would make sense.
Not a thrash from ball one approach, just a far more positive approach from ball one than what Sibley provides.

What happens when Buttler and Bairstow go early?

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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:37 am

What happens if they dont? What happens if Sibley uses up 70 balls for 10 runs?

All if's but's and maybe's. I am just putting my thoughts out there.
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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:37 am

Ishant gone now...review but this is dead. Two for Robinson thumbsup

England needed that . Runs had been coming too easily. Bumrah next...any chance he will cop a short one or two ?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:37 am

The inevitable with Ishant...but he did his job

5 to 7 to 9 runs for the remaining two also
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:40 am

eirebilly wrote:What happens if they dont? What happens if Sibley uses up 70 balls for 10 runs?

All if's but's and maybe's. I am just putting my thoughts out there.

In a five match series not losing the second test is more important than winning. There's a reason why openers open and the middle order bat at 5/6/7.

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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:44 am

I think that the opportunity of winning should always be taken. I do not care if it is the first, third or final test. Always go for the win where possible. A winning position against India does not come around too often.

I do understand cricket Soul Requiem but thanks for telling me about batting positions...
Some people just may have a different view than you.
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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:44 am

eirebilly wrote:What happens if they dont? What happens if Sibley uses up 70 balls for 10 runs?

All if's but's and maybe's. I am just putting my thoughts out there.

I do take your point : if it were , say , chasing 140 off 25 overs I'd send the two JBs in like a shot. But that sort of situation isn't going to arise today .

Any chase over 200 , with a run rate around three , surely calls for a normal batting order ?

Anyway still got to get two more out yet...

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:46 am

eirebilly wrote:I think that the opportunity of winning should always be taken. I do not care if it is the first, third or final test. Always go for the win where possible. A winning position against India does not come around too often.

I do understand cricket Soul Requiem but thanks for telling me about batting positions...
Some people just may have a different view than you.

Sometimes it needs reaffirming, we might as well open with Buttler all the time.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:46 am

commendable spell from Wood
Not juts intense cricket...but a Theater out there
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Post by eirebilly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:47 am

alfie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:What happens if they dont? What happens if Sibley uses up 70 balls for 10 runs?

All if's but's and maybe's. I am just putting my thoughts out there.

I do take your point : if it were , say , chasing 140 off 25 overs I'd send the two JBs in like a shot. But that sort of situation isn't going to arise today .

Any chase over 200 , with a run rate around three , surely calls for a normal batting order ?

Anyway still got to get two more out yet...
My view is an attacking view, no doubt. I would just like to see England take a more positive approach in a chase for a potential victory. I would leave Sibley at 3 or 4 to steady things if it didn't work out. This is not an opportunity that happens often.

We all have our views thumbsup
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:53 am

England are doing the going mental bowling to the tail approach
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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:54 am

Getting a bit willing out there... Bumrah clearly a bit stirred up . And it is working for him so far because he's got a biff or two away for runs.

Wears one on the helmet now so it might be time for a drink ?

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Post by alfie Mon 16 Aug 2021, 12:06 pm

England being completely outplayed this morning. These are tail end bats ; the ball is still new. What's wrong with a normal attack to bowl them or get 'em caught behind the wicket ?
The field has been basically rubbish. Lucky they got Pant early but apart from that they've pretty much lost the plot and may well be on the way to losing the match.

On the flip side there is obviously nothing wrong with the pitch for
batting. But I reckon it's gone from 65/35 England to evens already.

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