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England's Summer of Cricket 2021

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Pal Joey
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Post by msp83 Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Siraj will have a couple of deliveries at Anderson. The lead is already a nice 25.

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:05 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
GSC wrote:Think if I was Kohli, I'd be getting the seamers revved up over lunch. Let Englands openers stew for 40 minutes

Yep, - and Olly is already pressing the buzzer to give my answer Wink - I would bat one over after lunch and then declare. Even though it takes 3 overs out of the match, it'll give Burns and Sibley an uncomfortable 40 minutes over lunch as they wait and wonder which could be valuable to the visitors.


Close enough! Trusting Joey will give me a few extra sympathy points in his comp! Wink

Thought you might have been in Kohli's ear there , guildford. Smile

Worked too...Burns gone already !

Getting a sinking feeling about this...

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:05 pm

The calls to open with Buttler and Bairstow were just absurd, neither of them has a particularly great test record and factoring in no fielding restrictions in test cricket make it an almost impossible task. If you've got Gordon Greenidge, Gilchrist, Sehwag or a Pietersen in your team you might potentially go for it but that's factoring in their all round ability in the longer form of the game.

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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:07 pm

Wow, England continues to be generous! Burns plays a nothing shot, and Bumrah, who bowled well barring the no-balls, for no reward in the first innings, gets his first of the 2nd innings of a nothing delivery!

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:09 pm

If England were Strauss Trescothick Vaughan Bell Pietersen Fintoff then I'm sure Kohli would have batted on a bit longer !

But this lot have no chance of pulling off a chase like this. They'd be daft to even try. Survive if they can.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:10 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
GSC wrote:Think if I was Kohli, I'd be getting the seamers revved up over lunch. Let Englands openers stew for 40 minutes

Yep, - and Olly is already pressing the buzzer to give my answer Wink - I would bat one over after lunch and then declare. Even though it takes 3 overs out of the match, it'll give Burns and Sibley an uncomfortable 40 minutes over lunch as they wait and wonder which could be valuable to the visitors.


Close enough! Trusting Joey will give me a few extra sympathy points in his comp! Wink

Think we all deserve some sympathy points, guildford. Smile

Congratulations by the way on the Surrey victory yesterday. I had an eye on the scorecard. Good luck against Durham tomorrow!

Ha! Very Happy

Thanks, Joey. A Surrey win in the RL 50 at the Oval yesterday, the team travelling to Durham today for tomorrow's semi-final and should they win, over to Nottingham for the final on Thursday. That's it then until the 4 day stuff resumes at the very end of the month. I do find it hard to see how the England team will get it right when the schedule is so wrong.

Finally, one name for the future - Jamie Smith.

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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:10 pm

Can't ask for too much more from the lad, but Jasprit, can you cut down on those no-balls please? You know one of these days, it can be rather costly!

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:11 pm

msp83 wrote:Wow, England continues to be generous! Burns plays a nothing shot, and Bumrah, who bowled well barring the no-balls, for no reward in the first innings, gets his first of the 2nd innings of a nothing delivery!

Probably lucky he didn't overstep Smile

England looking rattled already...don't want a run out , Dom !

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:13 pm

Sibley gone now !

India taking a grip on this...

Can Root save the ship ? Is there any rain coming ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:14 pm

This is impressively bad even by England standards
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Post by GSC Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:15 pm

2 down and the writing is just about on the wall here
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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:15 pm

Seems like a plan from the England top order. Get Buttler and Bairstow in early, and turn it around dramatically! India won't see that coming!

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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:17 pm

Haseeb Hameed off the mark. Like the lad, was impressed with him when he caming touring these parts of the world early on in his test career. If India win, I wouldn't mind Hameed carrying his bat!

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Post by king_carlos Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:18 pm

Talk of opening with Bairstow and Buttler but we've gone with Hameed and Root to open instead. Always keeping us guessing!

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Post by Duty281 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:23 pm

It'll still be a draw, lads, relax. Ball does nothing after the 20 over mark.

Hope Root resigns the captaincy and it gets given to Broad. Guaranteed fun.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:It'll still be a draw, lads, relax. Ball does nothing after the 20 over mark.

Hope Root resigns the captaincy and it gets given to Broad. Guaranteed fun.

Hmmm. Fun it might be but I would still like to have at least one review left after the first 10 overs of bowling. Smile

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:29 pm

Root's batting got England into a position to win the game but his captaincy has yet again cost England the game.

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Post by eirebilly Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:30 pm

Have a 30 minute meeting and come back to this score. Oh dear lord.

Did both Sibley and Burns give away their wickets or was it good bowling?
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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:31 pm

Duty281 wrote:It'll still be a draw, lads, relax. Ball does nothing after the 20 over mark.

Hope Root resigns the captaincy and it gets given to Broad. Guaranteed fun.

Very Happy That might be amusing indeed !

Forgive me if I don't take too much solace from your cheerful guarantee of a safe draw , Duty : your earlier calls about the prospects in this match have proved spectacularly wrong !

I am expecting a tense afternoon .

And even as I type Hameed is dropped at slip...Rohit really should have swallowed that. India are pressing hard...

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Post by king_carlos Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:33 pm

Zaltzman on TMS wrote:We have a new all-time Test record. Dom Sibley's was the 10th duck by an opener in a calendar year for England - the most by any team ever.

Interesting and telling stat that from Zaltz.

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Post by eirebilly Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:35 pm

Massive chance here for Hameed to prove his worth. For the record, i would have him opening.

A big job for England to survive this.
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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:36 pm

Facing up to the new ball against Bumrah and Shami is demanding on this pitch now, but it still is a slow pitch. There have been a number of false shots in this innings, but the edges aren't carrying more often than not. And the one that carried, Rohit dropped it.

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Post by VTR Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:38 pm

eirebilly wrote:Massive chance here for Hameed to prove his worth. For the record, i would have him opening.

A big job for England to survive this.

If he does well here I'm 100% convinced he will be in the next Test as I think Sibley is going to get dropped whatever happens

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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:38 pm

Think eventually if India are to win, it has to be Sir Ravindrasinh Jadeja who will have to do it. The seamers can make his job easier if they can nip out a couple more before he's on... I just R Ashwin would soon be coming on to bowl in these conditions, would have been a handful, him and Jadeja's double act...

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:39 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Zaltzman on TMS wrote:We have a new all-time Test record. Dom Sibley's was the 10th duck by an opener in a calendar year for England - the most by any team ever.

Interesting and telling stat that from Zaltz.

A huge downside of having an unconventional technique is a susceptibility early on. They both look ok once they're in, it's the getting in that's the problem. The best England opener i've seen is Michael Vaughan, classical technique, few moving parts and as such didn't get into many difficulties opening the batting. Cook, Strauss and especially Trescothick had a simple set up, no big trigger movements. Sibley and Burns are both good players but they just keep making the same mistakes over and over now.

Malan almost has to come in at three now, Hameed moving up to open.

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Post by Pal Joey Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:40 pm

eirebilly wrote:Have a 30 minute meeting and come back to this score. Oh dear lord.

Did both Sibley and Burns give away their wickets or was it good bowling?

Burns tried to attack a rearing delivery off Jasprit but mistimed it and lobbed it straight to Siraj.
Sibley's was a cracker off Shami... a fine nick to Pant close to leg stump.


Last edited by Pal Joey on Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by VTR Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:40 pm

Just seen the Burns dismissal, shocking doesn't even describe that one, wasn't a good ball at all

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Post by msp83 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:41 pm

Pant letting a few go through. The pitch is slowly waking up, it seems.

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Post by Pal Joey Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:42 pm

VTR wrote:Just seen the Burns dismissal, shocking doesn't even describe that one, wasn't a good ball at all

He completely misread it and then played the wrong shot.
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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Root's batting got England into a position to win the game but his captaincy has yet again cost England the game.

Thing is , it's not just Root. They had all night to plan : obviously Silverwood has a big input. Then on the field he chats to Buttler , to Anderson...I'm afraid it's an attitude that is running through the side at present : probably born of a recent horrible run of defeats.

Bayliss was too white ball happy ( in fairness that was why they hired him) . But his teams , flawed as they were , were generally prepared to take on the game. And yes , it cost them quite often . Silverwood was initially applauded for bringing back "old fashioned Test batting". But hand in hand with that , the team seems to have lost the belief in themselves to push for victory when they have an advantage.

They could change that mindset , of course. Even under Root (frankly no sensible alternative anyway !) I hope they do : but I sense Stokes is not only the key player but also the one man whose fierce will to win ignites this team with his spirit . Without him they look a bit pale. They really need him back on board...

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Post by KP_fan Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:51 pm

Get Root and Its Game Over
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Post by Duty281 Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:57 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:It'll still be a draw, lads, relax. Ball does nothing after the 20 over mark.

Hope Root resigns the captaincy and it gets given to Broad. Guaranteed fun.

Very Happy  That might be amusing indeed !

Forgive me if I don't take too much solace from your cheerful guarantee of a safe draw , Duty : your earlier calls about the prospects in this match have proved spectacularly wrong !

I am expecting a tense afternoon .

And even as I type Hameed is dropped at slip...Rohit really should have swallowed that. India are pressing hard...

Aye, that's fair, I overestimated Root's captaincy.

But England will be reet for a draw.

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Post by eirebilly Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:00 pm

VTR wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Massive chance here for Hameed to prove his worth. For the record, i would have him opening.

A big job for England to survive this.

If he does well here I'm 100% convinced he will be in the next Test as I think Sibley is going to get dropped whatever happens
It will be hard on Sibley, who hasn't done much except be very slow and negative but I agree, do well here and he is the test opener next test.
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Post by eirebilly Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:00 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Have a 30 minute meeting and come back to this score. Oh dear lord.

Did both Sibley and Burns give away their wickets or was it good bowling?

Burns tried to attack a rearing delivery off Jasprit but mistimed it and lobbed it straight to Siraj.
Sibley's was a cracker off Shami... a fine nick to Pant close to leg stump.
Thanks bud thumbsup
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Post by Pal Joey Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:02 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Have a 30 minute meeting and come back to this score. Oh dear lord.

Did both Sibley and Burns give away their wickets or was it good bowling?

Burns tried to attack a rearing delivery off Jasprit but mistimed it and lobbed it straight to Siraj.
Sibley's was a cracker off Shami... a fine nick to Pant close to leg stump.
Thanks bud thumbsup

Ye nee worry, mate.
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Post by Duty281 Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:04 pm

I'm not sure Sibley will be dropped - what are England going to do? Bring Crawley back just after dropping him? Recall Lawrence or Pope and send Bairstow up to 3? Something else? Lammonby?!

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:07 pm

Nothing against Malan , by the way , Soul. Think he was arguably jettisoned prematurely due to Ed Smiths campaign to restructure the batting around Buttler .(at seven !) but that's another story...

But he's no way a Test number three. Another five/six , basically. As if we are short of those Smile

Also he's nearly 34. Is he a better prospect than Joe Denly ?

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:09 pm

alfie wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Root's batting got England into a position to win the game but his captaincy has yet again cost England the game.

Thing is , it's not just Root. They had all night to plan : obviously Silverwood has a big input. Then on the field he chats to Buttler , to Anderson...I'm afraid it's an attitude that is running through the side at present : probably born of a recent horrible run of defeats.

Bayliss was too white ball happy ( in fairness that was why they hired him) . But his teams , flawed as they were , were generally prepared to take on the game. And yes , it cost them quite often . Silverwood was initially applauded for bringing back "old fashioned Test batting". But hand in hand with that , the team seems to have lost the belief in themselves to push for victory when they have an advantage.

They could change that mindset , of course.  Even under Root (frankly no sensible alternative anyway !)  I hope they do : but I sense Stokes is not only the key player but also the one man whose fierce will to win ignites this team with his spirit . Without him they look a bit pale. They really need him back on board...

That's fair enough, Silverwood does appear to be a big part of the problem.

With regards to the batting, what really bugs me is the lack of progression players show nowadays. I'm not a huge fan of Bairstow the test batsman but you can see the work he's put in recently to try and overcome his weakness to the straight ball, that is whilst playing white ball cricket here, there and everywhere. You then have Dom Sibley who plays red ball cricket almost exclusively, what exactly is he doing in the nets? There's been no small adjustment to his technique at all; Trescothick, Thorpe, Collingwood amongst others have been around the set up recently, either they're not speaking to him or he's not listening.

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:09 pm

Hameed gone. How's the rain radar ?

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Post by KP_fan Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:10 pm

Taking Hameed helps......but they need to get Root...and the rest will collapse
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Post by GSC Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:14 pm

More than fair questions about Root and the coaching staff, but I also think it's much easier to coach and captain a good team. And England minus a few star players are not a very good test team right now
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Post by Duty281 Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:20 pm

GSC wrote:More than fair questions about Root and the coaching staff, but I also think it's much easier to coach and captain a good team. And England minus a few star players are not a very good test team right now

In English conditions they're better than almost all (including India, perhaps not NZ or Aus); outside of England it's very hit and miss. Overall, whilst far from a great side, they're justifiably in the top four test nations.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:More than fair questions about Root and the coaching staff, but I also think it's much easier to coach and captain a good team. And England minus a few star players are not a very good test team right now

In English conditions they're better than almost all (including India, perhaps not NZ or Aus); outside of England it's very hit and miss. Overall, whilst far from a great side, they're justifiably in the top four test nations.

With Stokes in the team yes but not without him.

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Post by king_carlos Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:28 pm

GSC wrote:More than fair questions about Root and the coaching staff, but I also think it's much easier to coach and captain a good team. And England minus a few star players are not a very good test team right now

Especially with the players unavailable. Stokes, Woakes, Archer and now Broad. This England side just aren't good enough to weather those absentees.

4.Root
5.Stokes
6.Pope/Bairstow
7.Buttler (wk)
8.Woakes
9.Moeen

Then 10 and 11 could be any two from Anderson, Broad, Archer and now Robinson. Robinson can also back up Woakes well due to his consistency with the ball and batting ability.

I keep saying it like a broken record but losing Woakes at the same time as Stokes is a hammer blow at home. With both we can bat Woakes at 8 but still have 5 bowling options. They give depth to the batting and bowling. Without them we have a long tail and a less potent attack.

As Richie Benaud so famously said, "captaincy is 90% luck and 10% skill". A huge portion of the luck in that is the players at your disposal.

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Post by king_carlos Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:29 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:More than fair questions about Root and the coaching staff, but I also think it's much easier to coach and captain a good team. And England minus a few star players are not a very good test team right now

In English conditions they're better than almost all (including India, perhaps not NZ or Aus); outside of England it's very hit and miss. Overall, whilst far from a great side, they're justifiably in the top four test nations.

With Stokes in the team yes but not without him.

And Woakes... Wink

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:More than fair questions about Root and the coaching staff, but I also think it's much easier to coach and captain a good team. And England minus a few star players are not a very good test team right now

In English conditions they're better than almost all (including India, perhaps not NZ or Aus); outside of England it's very hit and miss. Overall, whilst far from a great side, they're justifiably in the top four test nations.

Not on this summer's form so far they're not...

They've been just about unbeatable at home for a few years : but the last few games they look to have slipped badly. I do think the peculiar effects of Covid and bubble life , and the (necessary) resting policy - whether it's been done well or not - have served to help destabilise them. But all teams have suffered from that so can't be hiding behind that excuse.

Bit hampered by injuries right now too. But the best teams cover their missing stars better. If they are still top four it is pretty much by default.

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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:44 pm

As KC points out , the injury list is long - though it is mostly bowlers so doesn't really excuse the poor batting.

I rate Woakes but don't think his absence compares with that of Stokes at all. He's a better bat than the other bowlers ; and worth his spot all the time at least at home as a bowler : but he's not going to bat at five or even six. He'd be an improvement on Curran here but maybe not a game changer.

Aargh...Bairstow falls to a successful review for lbw right on tea !

Nervy last session to come. India favourites to win this , I think. If the light holds.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:48 pm

Not sure we’d have chased down 180 going by this even if we’d skittled them this morning…

Find the Root captaincy debate a bit pointless personally - England’s test/first class issues run way way deeper than the captain not being the best in the field. Would feel like moving deckchairs on the titanic
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Post by KP_fan Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:51 pm

Eng Crumbling to Powder
if they got Root Eng ain't worth even 150 runs
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Post by KP_fan Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:05 pm

Root gone...it's Over
Yahoo
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Post by alfie Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:05 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Not sure we’d have chased down 180 going by this even if we’d skittled them this morning…

Find the Root captaincy debate a bit pointless personally - England’s test/first class issues run way way deeper than the captain not being the best in the field. Would feel like moving deckchairs on the titanic

Can never know of course but would have been a totally different mental approach setting out after 180 instead of battling to get a draw.

Root isn't going to be replaced as skipper - as you say , pointless. He's had a shocker this morning but I maintain that is down to the whole management team.

Root gone now and this match is all but over. Not at all surprised.

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