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England - Summer Tour

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Post by king_carlos Tue 10 Aug 2021, 4:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12. Wink

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power! Whistle

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 9:05 am

Id have other players over him at 8....but he could be something special at hooker.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 31 Aug 2021, 9:07 am

You'll be calling for him at 12 by November!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 9:08 am

No thats the guy currently playing 8 for Exeter.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 31 Aug 2021, 11:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's the caveat. I think he's slotted in either way but I think I'm on the same page here that the potential to be properly top level is easier at hooker , if if if his set piece is good. If it isn't then yes he's going to be kept at 8.

Only way to do that is to play at hooker. LCD had the yips with his throwing early on, now he's a Lions starter and part of one of the most effective lineouts I've ever seen at Chiefs.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 31 Aug 2021, 11:41 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id have other players over him at 8....but he could be something special at hooker.

The options are at 8 are the established Billy and the challenger for the shirt Dombrandt followed by a number of others who are there or thereabouts including Chick, Simmonds and T Willis etc. Barbeary if he could stay for and make the kind of impacts he was making last season could probably move past a number of those options fairly swiftly and be third choice and perhaps suit Eddie better than having both Dombrandt and Billy. That would be the quickest way to international rugby in my view.

Hooker. He's unlikely to show the set piece strength this season to jump much up the pecking order. George and LCD are established quality at international level and at 30 and 28 are still in their prime years. Barbeary is explosive and could be an incredible talent but only if he can retain how he's playing in the backrow at hooker which isn't always easily done. Third choice is currently between the reliable but no more than steady Dunn and Blamire who looks very much like the next George/LCD style hooker available to us. Barbeary might be in the 6N squad as a hooker but it'll be in the apprentice role. He could make a massive splash as a hooker but that's not the short term route to international rugby it might take a couple of years to come up a level to compete with Blamire and Dunn.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 31 Aug 2021, 11:41 am

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:That's the caveat. I think he's slotted in either way but I think I'm on the same page here that the potential to be properly top level is easier at hooker , if if if his set piece is good. If it isn't then yes he's going to be kept at 8.

Only way to do that is to play at hooker. LCD had the yips with his throwing early on, now he's a Lions starter and part of one of the most effective lineouts I've ever seen at Chiefs.

Very much agree. He's got to be playing for Wasps at hooker before we can really access where he is at in that position.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 12:20 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Id have other players over him at 8....but he could be something special at hooker.

The options are at 8 are the established Billy and the challenger for the shirt Dombrandt followed by a number of others who are there or thereabouts including Chick, Simmonds and T Willis etc. .

I discount Chick and Simmonds. His main challengers for the 8 shirt would be Dombrandt, Billy and Tom Willis. If Jones want s mini version to replace Billy then Barbaery is the man. If he wants his 8 to offer a lot more rounded game then i think the other 2...Dombrandt in specfic gives that...and also a lineout option. Meaning your not forced to put a lineout option at 6...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 12:27 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Id have other players over him at 8....but he could be something special at hooker.

Hooker. He's unlikely to show the set piece strength this season to jump much up the pecking order. .

Why not? He's played that position most of his life up to the seniors. Hes clearly a very strong guy and powerful. Im pretty sure Wasps will have been training with him as hooker aswell.

They've lost Taylor and not really adequately replaced him...i wonder if that tells a story...

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Post by king_carlos Tue 31 Aug 2021, 1:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Id have other players over him at 8....but he could be something special at hooker.

Hooker. He's unlikely to show the set piece strength this season to jump much up the pecking order. .

Why not? He's played that position most of his life up to the seniors. Hes clearly a very strong guy and powerful. Im pretty sure Wasps will have been training with him as hooker aswell.

They've lost Taylor and not really adequately replaced him...i wonder if that tells a story...

With Cruse firmly first choice and Oghre looking a good player I'd guess that some Wasps fans might argue they wouldn't have replaced Taylor anyway, just focused recruitment elsewhere. With the reduced salary cap I think we will see more sides trusting a player such as Oghre as second choice rather than third choice, then bringing in Championship standouts such as Dan Frost as 3rd choice.

Barbeary is listed as a hooker on the Wasps website. I hope he plays most his games there this season.

Whilst I rate Tom Cruse he is also 32 so you'd presume that Wasps will be starting to think about a long term succession plan there. They'd do well to find a more talented successor than Barbeary.

Wasps have bolstered their back row too it's worth noting. Nizaam Carr returning and Vaea Fifita signed. Those two on top of Willis x 2, Young, Shields and Morris.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 1:31 pm

I think Oghre just looks like a poor mans Taylor. Looks very lightweight...

As you say Cruse is 32...

I guess we shall see.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 31 Aug 2021, 1:40 pm

Oghre's throwing is poor too. It may be a mistaken impression, but every time I've seen him come on to the pitch the Wasps' lineout seems to go to pot. I was quite suprised to see England call him up in the summer.
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Post by king_carlos Tue 31 Aug 2021, 1:42 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Oghre just looks like a poor mans Taylor. Looks very lightweight...

As you say Cruse is 32...

I guess we shall see.

England had a look at Oghre in the training squad when Singleton had to self isolate. Eddie isn't one for selecting lightweight hookers!

I rate Oghre. Given the reduced cap I think he's a really good player to have in the 23 on a regular basis. The Wasps props are a good example of how that cap reduction will hit depth. They've lost Brookes, McIntyre and Zhavania, replaced them with Scholtz, Millar-Mills and Hislop.

All Premiership sides have had to make concessions somewhere to fit the new cap. I think Wasps have done pretty well with their recruitment to bring in players such as Hougaard, Carr and Fifita.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 1:47 pm

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Oghre just looks like a poor mans Taylor. Looks very lightweight...

As you say Cruse is 32...

I guess we shall see.

England had a look at Oghre in the training squad when Singleton had to self isolate. Eddie isn't one for selecting lightweight hookers!

I rate Oghre. Given the reduced cap I think he's a really good player to have in the 23 on a regular basis. The Wasps props are a good example of how that cap reduction will hit depth. They've lost Brookes, McIntyre and Zhavania, replaced them with Scholtz, Millar-Mills and Hislop.

All Premiership sides have had to make concessions somewhere to fit the new cap. I think Wasps have done pretty well with their recruitment to bring in players such as Hougaard, Carr and Fifita.

He was one himself... Wink

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 31 Aug 2021, 2:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Id have other players over him at 8....but he could be something special at hooker.

Hooker. He's unlikely to show the set piece strength this season to jump much up the pecking order. .

Why not? He's played that position most of his life up to the seniors. Hes clearly a very strong guy and powerful. Im pretty sure Wasps will have been training with him as hooker aswell.

They've lost Taylor and not really adequately replaced him...i wonder if that tells a story...

There a notable difference between age grade and senior rugby. He won't have had to play against many that are stronger than him or are able to manipulate scrums. His technique will be under vastly more scrutiny. Wasps I'm sure having him training at hooker but they haven't played him there yet which may be an indication he's still learning the role a bit which is not unusual for a young player is it. Not many 20 year old hookers break through and become first choice in fact I can't think of any. Ashman is much talked up at Sale but he's third choice. It's a position where 22/23 seems to be the age that players kick on.

I'm also not sure Barbeary is a like for like replacement with Billy. Dombrandt is Billy with less weight but much better running lines. Billy is massive and according to weights on websites two stone heavier thank Barbeary and if you look at the players that is believable. Barbeary is a different proposition, possibly more comparable to a young Billy back when he used to make those great busting runs. Not seen those for a while.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 31 Aug 2021, 2:53 pm

It'd be great if he could hit the ground running though. Already showing he's ready in open play.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 31 Aug 2021, 3:55 pm

Known Eddie he'll be on the wing as Johnny Mays repalcement...

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Post by king_carlos Tue 31 Aug 2021, 3:57 pm

When Billy broke through with Wasps he was almost more similar to the Barbeary of 2020 than he is to Billy in 2020. He was a fair bit lighter, much quicker and made some very good breaks in the wider channels.

His defensive output then was much lower though it must be said. He uses his bulk very effectively in the tackle these days both with chop tackles and wrap tackles to stop the offload.

Players like Billy that evolve their game so much over their career really interest me. I've mentioned Marler as another a few times - started out as a bullocking carrier who was suspect at the scrum and is now basically the opposite. Haskell would be another - started out as a number 8 that carried exceptionally and ended up being used effectively by Jones as a flanker that just tackled and hit rucks.

As poor as Billy has been at times recently I still think he has the highest ceiling of any of the numbers 8s available. His carrying is a blunt instrument but if he can keep making yards after contact whilst sucking in multiple defenders then it's a very hard instrument to replace. Combine it with a tackle count consistently in the high teens and even twenties, his work returning kicks and control at the base of the scrum.

I'll be interested to see how Cockers involvement with the forwards effects the game plan and therefore the players used.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 31 Aug 2021, 4:36 pm

That ceiling players can reach...id love to see England playing whats in front a bit more. That was always the professed goal and if they do the lines, running and offloads of Dombrandt could be special.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 31 Aug 2021, 4:53 pm

Billy's defensive work last Autumn was very good, but I'd rather we had some more offensive options.

I do think its wrong to expect him to smash through defenders as he used to, for lots of reasons, but also agree that he can still be a valuable asset if he can tie in defenders and get the offload out.

I know we all have our bugbears and frequently state the same things. For me I'd like to see him rested. If he shows better all round form come the 6N then he can get back in the mix.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 31 Aug 2021, 6:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Known Eddie he'll be on the wing as Johnny Mays repalcement...
And May will be moved to the flank???

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Post by king_carlos Tue 31 Aug 2021, 6:51 pm

Did Billy ever smash through defenders and go on bullocking runs with England though? My memory of Billy at his best is just consistently getting over the gain line against set defensive lines rather than going on 40m runs.

Worth noting too I think that his reduced visibility in attack has coincided with a period when defences are dominating international rugby to a tedious extent. Billy isn't the only player who once showed a lot in attack that is now more prominent in defence. His cousin Toby is another who has fantastic attacking potential we haven't seen as much recently. I feel the way the game is currently being reffed and benches used to prevent the game opening up in the second half mean that defence is dominating international rugby pretty much everywhere. It's not something limited to Billy or England.

If Dombrandt gets picked I'd be interested to see how much effect his running lines (which are devastating at Prem level with Quins) have against strong international defences that have much higher line speed, reset quicker around the fringes and miss far fewer tackles. If his impact there is frequently lower he will then have to adapt other parts of his game to still offer something whilst things aren't going his way. Billy, for his faults, has adapted those other parts of his game by being able to make more than twenty tackles in a match.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 31 Aug 2021, 10:12 pm

Billy has tormented defenses in the past. There was a game vs Ireland a few years back where he seemed impossible to stop. But in general his value has been in tying up multiple defenders so creating space for others.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 31 Aug 2021, 10:27 pm

Getting older, depressingly slow tactics and poor passing from scrum half can't help. It's easy to say that Vunipola is the go to for poor slow ball but when it's regular poor service then it's harsh on him. Yup it's my own go to get rid of youngs and everything starts to look better quote.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 01 Sep 2021, 12:35 am

Billy at his best creates space because his sheer power makes defenders second guess whether they can stop him, but since the RWC he’s been containable by a good defence double teaming him, and modern defences can work around that.

Most of our options at 8 are similar from what I have seen: big men who run straight.

Simmonds offers something different but it’s unclear to me whether he can find the space to be effective at international level, and whether the need to add bulk and lineout capability elsewhere will unbalance the pack.

I hope that Dombrandt gets a run, because he challenges defenders in different ways. The power is there, but also the brains to pick smart lines and the hands to keep the move going. He will likely need time to adapt to the pace and to  get smarter about when to go for it or not, but if Eddie sticks with him he offers a different type of game, and I think England need to build an attack based around variety and playing heads up, unpredictable rugby.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 01 Sep 2021, 6:09 am

I know we have quite a few discussions regarding the weights of players and if the clubs are telling little fibs....well the Lions squad and the players stats make interesting reading, especially the first 2:

Eliiott Daly - 83kg
Sam Simmonds - 90kg
Jonny Hill - 111kg
Maro Itoje - 110kg
Courtney Lawes - 113kg
Tom Curry - 110kg
Kyle Sinckler - 122kg
Mako Vunipola - 121kg

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 8:41 am

i would just like to see "something" like:

1 Genge - We need to see what he can do v the big teams now
2 LCD / George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 "A.N.Other" - Who starts the season the best...
6 Curry
7 Underhill
8 Dombrandt

9 Randall
10 Ford / Smith
11 Cokasaniga (Offers more power option than May)
12 Lawrence - Though i suspect it will be farrell, which i can cope with if we have more attacking influence elsewhere
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Steward

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Post by Poorfour Wed 01 Sep 2021, 9:21 am

GF, that's a team I could get behind.
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Post by Cumbrian Wed 01 Sep 2021, 11:09 am

I like the team GF, but would there be enough kicking options with both Lawrence and Marchant in the centre? Especially considering the new laws that are being introduced. With this stupid new 50/22 rule, I think having more kicking options will be important.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 11:23 am

True, but that team has more runners to return the ball with credit Wink

Edit:
If Farrell was at 12 there would be enough.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 01 Sep 2021, 11:39 am

Cumbrian wrote:I like the team GF, but would there be enough kicking options with both Lawrence and Marchant in the centre?  Especially considering the new laws that are being introduced.  With this stupid new 50/22 rule, I think having more kicking options will be important.

Steward can kick the ball the length of the pitch. His issue is normally not putting too much through the ball and keeping his accuracy. If he can dial his kicking in as he gets more experience he'll be quite the weapon at the back. Randall should hopefully dial his kicking in a little more with greater exposure to international rugby. He's normally happy to kick ling hoping the opposition will then kick back to the Bristol back three who can go tearing off upfield. Not sure that'll work at international level but he's got the skills to adapt.

I'm unsure on the 50/22 rules but if people are bored of box kicking in the middle of the field then this should put paid to that. It's now much more beneficial to pass back to you flyhalf to try and kick to the corner. This obviously opens up charge down attempts but also less players in the defensive line as you'll increasingly find at least two players back in their own 22 watching for kicks to touch.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 Sep 2021, 11:44 am

We'll see what the new rules bring. Over the last few years every attempt to reduce kicking has generally had the opposite effect, as teams decide that they'd rather let the other team work out what to do with the ball.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 01 Sep 2021, 12:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:i would just like to see "something" like:

1 Genge - We need to see what he can do v the big teams now
2 LCD / George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 "A.N.Other" - Who starts the season the best...
6 Curry
7 Underhill
8 Dombrandt

9 Randall
10 Ford / Smith
11 Cokasaniga (Offers more power option than May)
12 Lawrence - Though i suspect it will be farrell, which i can cope with if we have more attacking influence elsewhere
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Steward

With one exception that is a very, very inexperienced backline if Smith plays, about 20 caps between them and most of them against lower standard teams for the really new guys. Big Joe might offer more power than May, but does he offer a better option when it comes to positioning for the long kicks and an ability to return the kick. When May kicks it looks so awkward, but the ball tends to end up in the right place and he, JC, doesn't offer the same broken play skills that May does, if we are going to see more kicking to the corners. Great impact player though.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 12:18 pm

At a time when we're missing some heavy duty carrying then yes...Joe C must be considered, coming in off his wing as a crash ball option. Is he better than May...different players, and May has not been in top form either.
We'll see when the season starts.

The back line is inexperienced...but Slade is hardly setting the world alight at 13.

If you want to tweak for experience...
9 Randall
10 Ford
11 Cockasaiga
12 Farrell
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Steward

Ford, Farrell and Watson offer huge experience, Coka has played plenty of rugby, and Marchant has played in NZ.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:At a time when we're missing some heavy duty carrying then yes...Joe C must be considered, coming in off his wing as a crash ball option. Is he better than May...different players, and May has not been in top form either.
We'll see when the season starts.

The back line is inexperienced...but Slade is hardly setting the world alight at 13.

If you want to tweak for experience...
9 Randall
10 Ford
11 Cockasaiga
12 Farrell
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Steward

Ford, Farrell and Watson offer huge experience, Coka has played plenty of rugby, and Marchant has played in NZ.

To be fair to Slade, he has had Farrell inside him most of the time which is very limiting as you tend to get man and ball.

Yes, big Joe is very useful coming into the line, but he is a bit of a blunt instrument without as far as I am aware any kicking game. A decent side would play on that knowing that the ball was going to be run back and as big as he is, a couple of flankers following up knowing he is going to get the ball will bring him down and we will lose a lot of ground.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:14 pm

Its just for a bit of Variety.

Watson and May offer speed and the ability to glide through players.
Randall and Smith offer the same...

We dont have Manu, and Billy V hasnt been doing that. So we need to have another option. Coka hasnt been on fire for a bit now, but had a nasty injury then some personal problems off the pitch.
He showed (admittedly against weak opposition) what he can do. A good preseason and work on his explosive power and he'll become the weapon Eddie first saw when he picked him.

Yes he would run it back, thats easily covered by having a few players back anyway...he can always pass to a kicker

Of course if Lawrence or even Odogwu can offer a similar thing from Centre then it opens options on the wing.

Slade has had Farrell to contend with, however Joseph played well with Farrell. I think Marchant would do alot better than Slade.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:27 pm

I like Marchant, great that he covers wing as well and would not necessarily play Slade over Marchant, but Slade is getting a kicking for playing average rugby when the man inside him has been playing the worst rugby of his career. JJ played outside a Farrell that deserved a place at 12 and was being touted as the best 12 in the NH if not the world. I would have liked to see what Slade could do with a competent 12 inside him and a game plan that didn't kick away 75% of the ball, quick or slow.

One thing in his favour, Slade that is, he runs the defense and does it very well, we have been good defensively on the whole. Who will run it if Marchant plays, I can't see Lawrence doing it?
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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:36 pm

I do wonder if Lawrence is going to have a significant role with England going forward. I think he has not been given much opportunity to show his quality (and he is very young) but I don't think he's done much with the chances he's had.

He hasn't yet shown the kind of point of difference which would help him have a decent international career. The question is will he given more chances.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:36 pm

So what is everyone's opinion on May, is he finished for England?  I understand that he hasn't been in the best form, but if feels like it might be a bit early for that.  Then again, there is an argument around the fact that he is a 31 year old winger who largely relies on pace to be effective.  

It feels like that we're at a crossroads in the backline, and the back three in particular.   I suppose the argument is, do we want to keep under-performing players in the team simply because they are experienced, or do you want to bite the bullet and move on?  Ideally you'd want to phase them out gradually but it feels like the end of the line for Daly at full back (52 caps) and people seem to be moving on from Jonny May (66 Caps).  Given how consistently they have been picked over the last 5-6 years, there is a gap in experience behind them.
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:38 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its just for a bit of Variety.

Watson and May offer speed and the ability to glide through players.
Randall and Smith offer the same...

We dont have Manu, and Billy V hasnt been doing that. So we need to have another option. Coka hasnt been on fire for a bit now, but had a nasty injury then some personal problems off the pitch.
He showed (admittedly against weak opposition) what he can do. A good preseason and work on his explosive power and he'll become the weapon Eddie first saw when he picked him.

Yes he would run it back, thats easily covered by having a few players back anyway...he can always pass to a kicker

Of course if Lawrence or even Odogwu can offer a similar thing from Centre then it opens options on the wing.

Slade has had Farrell to contend with, however Joseph played well with Farrell. I think Marchant would do alot better than Slade.

Unfortunately Paulo won't be back until the New Year. the good news is Alfie Barbeary will play some part in this weekends friendly with Cov.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:50 pm

Cumbrian wrote:So what is everyone's opinion on May, is he finished for England?  I understand that he hasn't been in the best form, but if feels like it might be a bit early for that.  Then again, there is an argument around the fact that he is a 31 year old winger who largely relies on pace to be effective.  

I think there's a feeling we need to move on from the back three we currently have. Daly is well out of form and has not developed much of the traditional fullback skills we hoped he would. May is going to struggle to make the next world cup but he's also tended to be the glue in the backline as his positional play is the best of the three. Watson should be in his prime and he was one of the very few England players to have a decent 6N. There are some question marks over him defensively as he does have it in his locker to have a shocker and be susceptible under the high ball. Despite an excellent 6N he was poor for the Lions.

Really tough calls in the back three as to who to keep and who to not. The England backline could certainly do with more direct penetration but May and Watson are both fantastic at the kick chase game and though many on here moan about it that is a significant factor of international rugby. 

Fullback is probably easier in that Daly probably has to earn the chance to take that back but who do you go with is tough with Malins the livewire with creative skills or the rock at the back Steward who showed up well in the summer. Not an easy choice. I do wonder whether Eddie might have another look at Malins on the wing, that worked really well for Bristol and in the very short amount of time he was on the field in the summer.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 01 Sep 2021, 2:54 pm

Until last season, May was England's standout performer, the move to Gloucester clearly hasn't suited him but I think he has earned the chance to show what he can do at least at squad level this year. If he is just as bad, then he goes, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. Even last season he was our best chaser of the high ball, not catcher but he was the only one who consistently pressurised the opposition catcher.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:So what is everyone's opinion on May, is he finished for England?  I understand that he hasn't been in the best form, but if feels like it might be a bit early for that.  Then again, there is an argument around the fact that he is a 31 year old winger who largely relies on pace to be effective.  

I think there's a feeling we need to move on from the back three we currently have. Daly is well out of form and has not developed much of the traditional fullback skills we hoped he would. May is going to struggle to make the next world cup but he's also tended to be the glue in the backline as his positional play is the best of the three. Watson should be in his prime and he was one of the very few England players to have a decent 6N. There are some question marks over him defensively as he does have it in his locker to have a shocker and be susceptible under the high ball. Despite an excellent 6N he was poor for the Lions.

Really tough calls in the back three as to who to keep and who to not. The England backline could certainly do with more direct penetration but May and Watson are both fantastic at the kick chase game and though many on here moan about it that is a significant factor of international rugby. 

Fullback is probably easier in that Daly probably has to earn the chance to take that back but who do you go with is tough with Malins the livewire with creative skills or the rock at the back Steward who showed up well in the summer. Not an easy choice. I do wonder whether Eddie might have another look at Malins on the wing, that worked really well for Bristol and in the very short amount of time he was on the field in the summer.

Dont forget the back three all have serious competition / contenders for their places now....some genuinely classy kids coming through...

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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:01 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Until last season, May was England's standout performer, the move to Gloucester clearly hasn't suited him but I think he has earned the chance to show what he can do at least at squad level this year. If he is just as bad, then he goes, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. Even last season he was our best chaser of the high ball, not catcher but he was the only one who consistently pressurised the opposition catcher.

He also scored that try that got all the armchair experts upset. It is difficult for wingers as, although they are very exposed when they make mistakes, how much good they do is very dependent on what happens elsewhere. Whatever happens we are in the autumn of May's career. He will rightly go down as one of our best wingers, but it looks like we have some very decent options when he is finally moved on or quits.

It will be very telling how he's used at Gloucs at the start of the season given the presence of the 'Welsh wonderboy', although I guess he'll be getting rested because of his Lions experiences.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:05 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I like Marchant, great that he covers wing as well and would not necessarily play Slade over Marchant, but Slade is getting a kicking for playing average rugby when the man inside him has been playing the worst rugby of his career. JJ played outside a Farrell that deserved a place at 12 and was being touted as the best 12 in the NH if not the world. I would have liked to see what Slade could do with a competent 12 inside him and a game plan that didn't kick away 75% of the ball, quick or slow.

One thing in his favour, Slade that is, he runs the defense and does it very well, we have been good defensively on the whole. Who will run it if Marchant plays, I can't see Lawrence doing it?

The defence has been good, as it was when Joseph was at 13.

Slade has probably been a little unfortunate, but nevertheless, has failed to shine. Maybe in the Ai's Farrell is dropped for his mandatory rest period and he will get a chance with a 9-10-12 channel that will attack more fluidly....?

Who the 12 will be...? Who knows. Lawrence needs to be given some gametime. Its all about how they start the season for me. Many should be rested, with a full preseason under their belt and firing on all cylinders.


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Post by Poorfour Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:20 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I like Marchant, great that he covers wing as well and would not necessarily play Slade over Marchant, but Slade is getting a kicking for playing average rugby when the man inside him has been playing the worst rugby of his career. JJ played outside a Farrell that deserved a place at 12 and was being touted as the best 12 in the NH if not the world. I would have liked to see what Slade could do with a competent 12 inside him and a game plan that didn't kick away 75% of the ball, quick or slow.

One thing in his favour, Slade that is, he runs the defense and does it very well, we have been good defensively on the whole. Who will run it if Marchant plays, I can't see Lawrence doing it?

That's fair - but I think Marchant has enough creativity that he should be able to play better outside an off-form 12 than Slade has. In terms of defence, I am not sure you can call what Quins currently do a defence, per se, but I think Marchant's reading of the game and work rate off the ball makes him capable of being a defensive captain.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:22 pm

May for me is still our best winger by some distance. Don't see a weakness in his game, still the one who is most likely to do something individually brilliant, best in the air, quickest (of the established guys), got sod all decent ball for the last 18 months. He's in sight of the tries record which makes me think that he's not likely to make the decision to step aside himself. At 31 he's getting on for an international winger but that's normally driven by a loss of pace which doesn't as yet seem to be happening. I'd be dropping Watson before I'd drop May but personally would be keeping both and looking to bring in 1 of Steward or Radwan.

Hassell-Collins form will be one to watch for me though he was ignored over the summer and I really didn't get that logic.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:May for me is still our best winger by some distance. Don't see a weakness in his game, still the one who is most likely to do something individually brilliant, best in the air, quickest (of the established guys), got sod all decent ball for the last 18 months. He's in sight of the tries record which makes me think that he's not likely to make the decision to step aside himself. At 31 he's getting on for an international winger but that's normally driven by a loss of pace which doesn't as yet seem to be happening. I'd be dropping Watson before I'd drop May but personally would be keeping both and looking to bring in 1 of Steward or Radwan.

Hassell-Collins form will be one to watch for me though he was ignored over the summer and I really didn't get that logic.

Yes he was a surprise omission. I really rate young Sleightholme also...

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:51 pm

Sleightholme got concussed at the end of last season and was not available to be selected. Reminds me of Jack Nowell the way he bounces through tackles, but has more pace,
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 01 Sep 2021, 3:56 pm

He just looks like an all round winger, who could progress nicely. Aggressive, has strength and pace.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 01 Sep 2021, 5:50 pm

He seems to read the game very well, too. Always seems to pop up where there is a gap or break coming.

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