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England - Summer Tour

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Post by king_carlos Tue 10 Aug 2021, 4:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12. Wink

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power! Whistle

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Post by lostinwales Tue 17 Aug 2021, 1:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if we'll see an England back row of the following some day:

6 Tom Curry
7 Jack Willis
8 Tom Willis

That would be a handy back row!

Ben Curry on the bench

Kpoku twins at lock.

Drive the opposition crazy....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Aug 2021, 1:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if we'll see an England back row of the following some day:

6 Tom Curry
7 Jack Willis
8 Tom Willis

That would be a handy back row!

Tom didn't get a look in this summer. Eddie likes a unit in the backrow, Billy has been the preference. Not sure Eddie sees Tom as the big ball carrier. If we are doing away with the big ball carrier standard then I'd quite like to see;

6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. J Willis

Talk about all action though you'd need a physical and lineout dominant second row in front of them.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 17 Aug 2021, 1:22 pm

i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 17 Aug 2021, 1:25 pm

Tom Willis might need a year or two more. He's definitely banging on the door but you never know if these guys will make it or be an also ran.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 17 Aug 2021, 3:09 pm

Alfie Barbeary might be the wrecking ball no.8 (if Wasps get another hooker in), seems the most like-for-like replacement for Billy. Although perhaps the Barbearian is a little less destructive and a little more mobile.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Eddie revert to the Tom Curry at 8 nonsense though.

I just can't read what Eddie is going to do, other than persist with Billy, no matter how far his form nosedives.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 17 Aug 2021, 3:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if we'll see an England back row of the following some day:

6 Tom Curry
7 Jack Willis
8 Tom Willis

That would be a handy back row!

Ben Curry on the bench

Kpoku twins at lock.

Drive the opposition crazy....

Forget the opposition, what about the commentators?
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Post by lostinwales Tue 17 Aug 2021, 3:26 pm

Poorfour wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if we'll see an England back row of the following some day:

6 Tom Curry
7 Jack Willis
8 Tom Willis

That would be a handy back row!

Ben Curry on the bench

Kpoku twins at lock.

Drive the opposition crazy....

Forget the opposition, what about the commentators?

They are unlikely to make it but add in the Olowofela brothers on the wings...

Cokanasinga junior at 12 alongside his brother on the wing.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 17 Aug 2021, 3:41 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

On the locks, I think we need something slightly different. Itoje is the enforcer and Lawes is an able backup for now. What I think we need most is the next in line to the Ben Kay / George Kruis role of being a really good technical setpiece lock - but I’m not seeing anyone who looks ready yet. Ewels has underwhelmed, Hill looks more of a 4 than a 5 to me, who’s next? Kpoku?

I’ve long joked that Dombrandt arrived at the Stoop in a DHL crate marked “Nick Easter Mk II”. Easter wasn’t fast [1], but he was powerful in contact and could both give and take an offload. When he and Care played together they tore a lot of holes in defences around the edges of the scrum and ruck. Dombrandt has the same skill set but is much, much faster.

Being a great ball carrier really comes down to two things: can you make the defence run out of options for stopping you before you run out of options for making yards? And can you make sure you get the ball back to your side when you do get stopped? [2]

Too many of today’s crash ball players just run into brick walls over and over, because defenders and defensive systems are too good. A fit Billy or Manu can still overwhelm anything the defence can do, but unfit they get stopped like everyone else.

I think the game is shifting towards players who can create space in other ways. For the forwards, I think that means being more than just a big tank who can crash into defenders. We’re starting to see players coming through who can pick clever lines and pass or at least offload if they can see they’ve committed the defence.

More generally, I think (and hope) we are seeing the emergence of a generation of players who can unlock defences on sight when it’s on, rather than having to rely on phase play.

I have no doubt that Eddie has seen this too, and has another shift in tactics worked out to drop in before the RWC. I am hoping he’s planning to make Smith a big part of that and fully utilise the additional options he brings; Eddie’s been watching him pretty much since he took up the England job, and the fact that he has capped him now suggests to me that we will see the switch starting to happen. Though how soon that will happen is anyone’s guess.

[1] Though there was a summer when he was hilariously effective in the Middlesex 7s because he could just plough over the line with defenders hanging off him.
[2] In his younger days, James Haskell was great at making half breaks and then getting turned over because he’d lost his support.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Aug 2021, 3:43 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

We've got a couple of heavy duty locks on the way through but they're a bit young at present. Ribbans might step in and do the job potentially.

Dombrandt for me isn't far off the Billy V offering, not quite as big and a bit better at picking lines but still the big ball carrying option. Tom Willis would be a move towards a more mobile option.

Barbeary would be a different proposition altogether. Not the big unit we've been used to but so explosive. A slightly more physical Sam Simmonds? Wasps have three other senior hookers so could still use him in the backrow.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Aug 2021, 3:53 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

More generally, I think (and hope) we are seeing the emergence of a generation of players who can unlock defences on sight when it’s on, rather than having to rely on phase play.

You're always going to need phase play. There's certainly a difference between the team's whose half backs use it to merely bludgeon their way over the gain line repeatedly and those that use it like a game of chess. Probing at areas, trying pull players towards the breakdown or stretch the defence.

England have gone from type 2 to type 1 recently. Mainly because the backline balance makes them largely ineffectual and very easy to defend against. More balance and we have more than flyhalf that can play the chess and move the backline forward reliably as opposed to hope for an individual moment of brilliance. If anything we've been looking at our own back three for most of the ANC and 6N hoping for those moments of magic and that was largely ineffectual.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 17 Aug 2021, 4:05 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

On the locks, I think we need something slightly different. Itoje is the enforcer and Lawes is an able backup for now. What I think we need most is the next in line to the Ben Kay / George Kruis role of being a really good technical setpiece lock - .

When i refer to a heavy duty lock...thats generally what i mean. The tight head lock...who really can anchor the scrum, be the dominant one in the mauls, and offer real presence in the tight exchanges.

I appreciate Itoje is simply top drawer and proved it once again in SA, but i dont actually see him as the enforcer, or the dominant tight head lock, as i would say Brodie Retallick is or the SA boys.... He's giving away a good 4 inches and about 2 stone to most of them...and thats a big difference.

I think Itjoe and Kruis worked incredibly well for that reason...whereas i dont believe Hill or Lawes (despite how highly i rate him) offer the same in the tight exchanges. Launchbury is another who really played that role well....

We really need that tight head lock coming through...hopefully this season one or two will make that step up...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 17 Aug 2021, 4:22 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

More generally, I think (and hope) we are seeing the emergence of a generation of players who can unlock defences on sight when it’s on, rather than having to rely on phase play.

You're always going to need phase play. There's certainly a difference between the team's whose half backs use it to merely bludgeon their way over the gain line repeatedly and those that use it like a game of chess. Probing at areas, trying pull players towards the breakdown or stretch the defence.

England have gone from type 2 to type 1 recently. Mainly because the backline balance makes them largely ineffectual and very easy to defend against. More balance and we have more than flyhalf that can play the chess and move the backline forward reliably as opposed to hope for an individual moment of brilliance. If anything we've been looking at our own back three for most of the ANC and 6N hoping for those moments of magic and that was largely ineffectual.

i agree i think the attack in general has not helped...

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Post by Poorfour Tue 17 Aug 2021, 4:49 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
You're always going to need phase play. There's certainly a difference between the team's whose half backs use it to merely bludgeon their way over the gain line repeatedly and those that use it like a game of chess. Probing at areas, trying pull players towards the breakdown or stretch the defence.

England have gone from type 2 to type 1 recently. Mainly because the backline balance makes them largely ineffectual and very easy to defend against. More balance and we have more than flyhalf that can play the chess and move the backline forward reliably as opposed to hope for an individual moment of brilliance. If anything we've been looking at our own back three for most of the ANC and 6N hoping for those moments of magic and that was largely ineffectual.

I agree that you’ll always need phase play - my point was that defensive analysis has now got to the point that coaches are unlocking phase play systems quite quickly, so attacks will need something more. And I think that starts with players who can change the play on the fly when they see what’s on.

For what it’s worth, I think Ford can do that. He has a very good reading of the game, and the skills to match. But he’s been playing system rugby for a long time now, and I also don’t think he has quite the range of options or speed of reaction that Smith has. If Smith can bring what he does at club level to the International game, it will make England a nightmare to defend against.

I’d also agree that the back line balance is out. I thought Randall and Smith played well together and I’d like to see that pairing given time to develop. I don’t have a problem with Farrell at 12 - for all that people have a problem with him, he’s shown that he can work well with other fly halves - not just Ford, but Sexton and to some extent Biggar on the Lions tours. But I’d like to see a change at 13 (with my quartered specs on, Marchant deserves a shot - he’s in superb form) and we need to find the right mix of back 3. It would be good to see Nowell tried at FB now he’s fit (and seems to be preferred over Hogg at Exeter, which is quite an accolade), and maybe Radwan. And Eddie should maybe cap Louis Lynagh if only to stop him playing for any of the other countries he’s qualified for…
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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Aug 2021, 4:50 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:i dont think we have a big ball carrier like Billy Sam, not many countries do really...

I think Jones will have to look at a big yet more mobile guy at 8. Dombrandt or Tom Willis fit that billing.

I do agree we need a big heavy duty lock coming through.

More generally, I think (and hope) we are seeing the emergence of a generation of players who can unlock defences on sight when it’s on, rather than having to rely on phase play.

You're always going to need phase play. There's certainly a difference between the team's whose half backs use it to merely bludgeon their way over the gain line repeatedly and those that use it like a game of chess. Probing at areas, trying pull players towards the breakdown or stretch the defence.

England have gone from type 2 to type 1 recently. Mainly because the backline balance makes them largely ineffectual and very easy to defend against. More balance and we have more than flyhalf that can play the chess and move the backline forward reliably as opposed to hope for an individual moment of brilliance. If anything we've been looking at our own back three for most of the ANC and 6N hoping for those moments of magic and that was largely ineffectual.

i agree i think the attack in general has not helped...

The attacking structure does feel a little half finished. Yes they have the pattern and they have the speed from the base (despite what people say Youngs uses the ball very quickly). I think we just need a little more movement particularly around the 10. There's little to stop the opposition midfield drifting if the ball goes wide and nothing to stop the opposition backrow blitzing our halfbacks.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Aug 2021, 5:03 pm

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
You're always going to need phase play. There's certainly a difference between the team's whose half backs use it to merely bludgeon their way over the gain line repeatedly and those that use it like a game of chess. Probing at areas, trying pull players towards the breakdown or stretch the defence.

England have gone from type 2 to type 1 recently. Mainly because the backline balance makes them largely ineffectual and very easy to defend against. More balance and we have more than flyhalf that can play the chess and move the backline forward reliably as opposed to hope for an individual moment of brilliance. If anything we've been looking at our own back three for most of the ANC and 6N hoping for those moments of magic and that was largely ineffectual.

I agree that you’ll always need phase play - my point was that defensive analysis has now got to the point that coaches are unlocking phase play systems quite quickly, so attacks will need something more. And I think that starts with players who can change the play on the fly when they see what’s on.

For what it’s worth, I think Ford can do that. He has a very good reading of the game, and the skills to match. But he’s been playing system rugby for a long time now, and I also don’t think he has quite the range of options or speed of reaction that Smith has. If Smith can bring what he does at club level to the International game, it will make England a nightmare to defend against.

I’d also agree that the back line balance is out. I thought Randall and Smith played well together and I’d like to see that pairing given time to develop. I don’t have a problem with Farrell at 12 - for all that people have a problem with him, he’s shown that he can work well with other fly halves - not just Ford, but Sexton and to some extent Biggar on the Lions tours. But I’d like to see a change at 13 (with my quartered specs on, Marchant deserves a shot - he’s in superb form) and we need to find the right mix of back 3. It would be good to see Nowell tried at FB now he’s fit (and seems to be preferred over Hogg at Exeter, which is quite an accolade), and maybe Radwan. And Eddie should maybe cap Louis Lynagh if only to stop him playing for any of the other countries he’s qualified for…

I think we've got to develop the Randall/Smith combination further. They both have a lot of promise and look like they combine well. Randall in particular looks to have more about him than Robson who tends to look out of his depth at international level. I'm a big fan of competition and if think it's likely to drive all four of our half backs on at both club and international level. 

Marchant at 13 feels like a must for me. We had a good run of form a few years ago with Joseph at 13 and I think Marchant can offer similar. We could definitely use his ability to run lines and add pace to the midfield. The wing options are outstanding so little worry there. Fullback is more of a concern though Nowell, Malins and Steward are all in the mix.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 17 Aug 2021, 5:17 pm

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
You're always going to need phase play. There's certainly a difference between the team's whose half backs use it to merely bludgeon their way over the gain line repeatedly and those that use it like a game of chess. Probing at areas, trying pull players towards the breakdown or stretch the defence.

England have gone from type 2 to type 1 recently. Mainly because the backline balance makes them largely ineffectual and very easy to defend against. More balance and we have more than flyhalf that can play the chess and move the backline forward reliably as opposed to hope for an individual moment of brilliance. If anything we've been looking at our own back three for most of the ANC and 6N hoping for those moments of magic and that was largely ineffectual.

I agree that you’ll always need phase play - my point was that defensive analysis has now got to the point that coaches are unlocking phase play systems quite quickly, so attacks will need something more. And I think that starts with players who can change the play on the fly when they see what’s on.

For what it’s worth, I think Ford can do that. He has a very good reading of the game, and the skills to match. But he’s been playing system rugby for a long time now, and I also don’t think he has quite the range of options or speed of reaction that Smith has. If Smith can bring what he does at club level to the International game, it will make England a nightmare to defend against.

I’d also agree that the back line balance is out. I thought Randall and Smith played well together and I’d like to see that pairing given time to develop. I don’t have a problem with Farrell at 12 - for all that people have a problem with him, he’s shown that he can work well with other fly halves - not just Ford, but Sexton and to some extent Biggar on the Lions tours. But I’d like to see a change at 13 (with my quartered specs on, Marchant deserves a shot - he’s in superb form) and we need to find the right mix of back 3. It would be good to see Nowell tried at FB now he’s fit (and seems to be preferred over Hogg at Exeter, which is quite an accolade), and maybe Radwan. And Eddie should maybe cap Louis Lynagh if only to stop him playing for any of the other countries he’s qualified for…

I'd be surprised if we cap Lynagh. Not that he isn't a good, smart winger with a lot of potential, but I don't think he offers the point of difference we get with the likes of Cokanasinga or Radwan, let alone the current pair. There is a lot of competition at wing.

I do want to see Nowell at 15, but worry that he's spending more time injured than Underhill.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 17 Aug 2021, 5:55 pm

Would still love to see youngs Ford Slade and daly moved on for differing reasons. If we do that we're well set for the 6ns.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 17 Aug 2021, 6:21 pm

lostinwales wrote:
I'd be surprised if we cap Lynagh. Not that he isn't a good, smart winger with a lot of potential, but I don't think he offers the point of difference we get with the likes of Cokanasinga or Radwan, let alone the current pair. There is a lot of competition at wing.

I do want to see Nowell at 15, but worry that he's spending more time injured than Underhill.

I had my tongue in my cheek when I mentioned Lynagh - but I do think he has a point of difference. He's not the fastest or the most elusive - though his acceleration is pretty special - but he has the ability to be in the right place at the right time that comes from being his father's son. His reading of the game really stands out, especially for someone so early in his career. Apparently before the Final he walked the pitch with his dad and stated that he was going to score in the North East corner. Which he duly did.

Wingers are in many ways the easiest position to fill - there are lots of good ones. But if you have one who's qualified for multiple countries, you do need to think carefully about how much you're willing to risk losing them.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Aug 2021, 8:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would still love to see youngs Ford Slade and daly moved on for differing reasons. If we do that we're well set for the 6ns.

The problem with moving Youngs on is that Robson has proven to be nowhere near as good internationally so you're throwing away more than 100 caps of experience and gambling on youngsters or Robson suddenly seeing a significant upturn in ability which is unlikely given he's not far off 30.

Similar with Ford who has been England's best flyhalf for years but is generally underappreciated in the media. Not to say I wouldn't like to see some younger guys like Mitchell, Randall and Smith get game time but I don't really see the point in throwing away 200 caps of half back experience when they still have value in the squad.

Slade I still think can do a job for England though as the starting 13 not if Farrell is also playing. Daly I'd agree he doesn't need to be there currently. I wouldn't be averse to dropping the pair of them for the AIs and seeing if that prompts a response in their efforts for their clubs. We'd still have other players with experience in the midfield and back three to help guide a youngster.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 17 Aug 2021, 10:43 pm

Eddie could always bring back Care. Especially if he wants to play Smith. Of course, it would mean admitting he was wrong to dump him, but...
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 17 Aug 2021, 10:45 pm

Englands problems start with the scrum half. I have no issue with Ford and if it wasn't for the guy banging on the door I'd happily see him stay. Slade is meh and daly has been an awful full back.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 18 Aug 2021, 7:02 am

Poorfour wrote:Eddie could always bring back Care. Especially if he wants to play Smith. Of course, it would mean admitting he was wrong to dump him, but...

laughing laughing laughing

A player even older (36 by the next RWC) and with no tactical kicking game, the reason he was dropped in the first place.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 18 Aug 2021, 7:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Englands problems start with the scrum half. I have no issue with Ford and if it wasn't for the guy banging on the door I'd happily see him stay. Slade is meh and daly has been an awful full back.

What's the issue with Youngs?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Aug 2021, 8:40 am

I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 18 Aug 2021, 9:54 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Eddie could always bring back Care. Especially if he wants to play Smith. Of course, it would mean admitting he was wrong to dump him, but...

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

A player even older (36 by the next RWC) and with no tactical kicking game, the reason he was dropped in the first place.

Obviously not as a long term solution, but as someone to help Smith adapt to international rugby (a concern you've repeatedly voiced), Care has a lot to offer. And since you apparently only watch Quins when they play badly at Welford Road, you might have missed that Care's decision making and tactical kicking have improved dramatically since his England exile (which has usually been reported as being because he challenged Eddie over the game plan, having deviated from it to save England's bacon against Australia).
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 18 Aug 2021, 10:19 am

Its irrelevant whos at SH and FH when there is noone running intelligent lines of support from deep, distracting defenders, creating space for ball carriers, being in support for offloads etc...

Farrell and Slade are not inspiring runners for England...

Ford gets slated but not alot he can do at times...


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Post by lostinwales Wed 18 Aug 2021, 11:25 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its irrelevant whos at SH and FH when there is noone running intelligent lines of support from deep, distracting defenders, creating space for ball carriers, being in support for offloads etc...

Farrell and Slade are not inspiring runners for England...

Ford gets slated but not alot he can do at times...


We have ended up being overly dependent on Curry and Underhill to offer those kinds of running lines in midfield, which doesn't feel right. To many of the tries that have come seem to have been down to the brilliance of the wingers, and that is not a reliable source of points (one day everything clicks, the next three they don't).

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 18 Aug 2021, 12:45 pm

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Eddie could always bring back Care. Especially if he wants to play Smith. Of course, it would mean admitting he was wrong to dump him, but...

laughing laughing laughing

A player even older (36 by the next RWC) and with no tactical kicking game, the reason he was dropped in the first place.

Obviously not as a long term solution, but as someone to help Smith adapt to international rugby (a concern you've repeatedly voiced), Care has a lot to offer. And since you apparently only watch Quins when they play badly at Welford Road, you might have missed that Care's decision making and tactical kicking have improved dramatically since his England exile (which has usually been reported as being because he challenged Eddie over the game plan, having deviated from it to save England's bacon against Australia).

Danny Care is very good at talking himself up given the chance. U actually quite like watching Quins as they can generally only play an open and expansive brand of rugby meaning there's normally lots of tries involved. Care is even in my provisional Prem fantasy team for the coming season. He'll score plenty of points. Mending bridges with Eddie, learning the game plan and adapting takes time. We have a more experienced and younger scrum already in the squad. Why take a player with known faults that doesn't fit the system, makes no sense to me.

Spend the time developing the successors instead. 

JVP will be the Tigers successor for Youngs but probably not before the next world cup. He's a ridiculous talent but there's some creases to iron out.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 18 Aug 2021, 12:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 18 Aug 2021, 12:56 pm

Will Gleeson and Cockers have much influence over the style, tactics etc or will Jones make the call.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Aug 2021, 1:08 pm

Jones' head on the block. I can see Dombrandt and Smith coming in and with Smith on particular why wouldn't you change to suit him more. We've seen it for Harlequins and now at international level that he can offer something we haven't had since those early days of Cirpriani.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 18 Aug 2021, 1:38 pm

The problem is, Smith (and Ford) needs players outside him making the plays or just running the right lines etc...as i said above.

Now i know your a huge fan of Farrell...hes like marmite...but we all agree Slade isnt cutting the mustard and must be moved on. Marchants game style offers so much more of what we looking for.

We also need the wingers running lines off their wings, drawing defenders alongside our flankers, No 8, Genge, Mako etc. either as a decoy...or actually taking the ball in space..

The fly halves need help so they can pass or make the break themselves. Ford has been criticized and i have been guilty myself...but its difficult to mix it up when the defense doesnt have multiple issue to think about...and can flatten the fly half, forcing him to simply kick or move it on predictably.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 18 Aug 2021, 1:47 pm

I've never been a big critic of Fors, very good player. But until this last year England have had multiple options in attack and we've been very good. Very disappointing to underperform in the 6 nations but there are multiple reasons for that and I'm pretty optimistic we can win the remaining games this year.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 18 Aug 2021, 2:10 pm

Im hoping hes wiping the slate clean and addressing the players that need moved on.

Hes brought in A forwards coach who loves an abrasive style and aggression and an attack coach that at least had his club side playing some good stuff.

So there is hope.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 18 Aug 2021, 4:44 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 18 Aug 2021, 5:02 pm

I happened across the article below:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/our-baby-boks-v-lions-cubs-xvs-south-africa-u21-v-british-irish-lions-u21-who-would-win/

It is essentially a hypothetical next generation of Lions vs Boks thread. It is probably a fluff piece/ bit of nonsense, but I found it quite interesting. From England they have selected Bevan Rodd, Alfie Barbeary, George Martin, Jack Clement, Jack van Poortvliet, Dan Kelly, Louis Lynagh, Freddie Steward, Phil Brantingham, Fin Baxter and Charlie Atkinson in the main squad/ on the bench.

They also gave mentions to Ewan Richards, Emeka Ilione, Richard Capstick, Max Ojomoh and Will Joseph, Raffi Quirk, Ollie Sleighholme and Fin Smith.

It makes you realise that we have got an awful lot of talented young players kicking around at the moment. It isn't just like they are guys that you know exclusively from age grade matches, a lot of them aregetting regular premiership minutes.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 18 Aug 2021, 6:43 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

Yep a scrum half that can't pass has more than 100 caps across several England coaches and has been selected for the last three Lions Tours (opting out of two of them). That's before we consider the 14 year club career in the Prem. Still only 31 so looks likely to overtake the Funbus and be England's most capped (male) player.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 18 Aug 2021, 7:03 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I happened across the article below:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/our-baby-boks-v-lions-cubs-xvs-south-africa-u21-v-british-irish-lions-u21-who-would-win/

It is essentially a hypothetical next generation of Lions vs Boks thread.  It is probably a fluff piece/ bit of nonsense, but I found it quite interesting. From England they have selected Bevan Rodd, Alfie Barbeary, George Martin, Jack Clement, Jack van Poortvliet, Dan Kelly, Louis Lynagh, Freddie Steward, Phil Brantingham, Fin Baxter and Charlie Atkinson in the main squad/ on the bench.

They also gave mentions to Ewan Richards, Emeka Ilione, Richard Capstick, Max Ojomoh and Will Joseph, Raffi Quirk, Ollie Sleighholme and Fin Smith.  

It makes you realise that we have got an awful lot of talented young players kicking around at the moment.  It isn't just like they are guys that you know exclusively from age grade matches, a lot of them are getting regular premiership minutes.

It is pleasing to see virtually the entire Premiership really embracing their academies and bringing young players in and giving them game time.

There's quite a few players listed there and yet I think fans of nearly every club in the league will be thinking yeah but we've also got this lad who you'll see more of soon...

Brantingham does look a real talent at loosehead, as does Baxter who apparently has taken to playing both sides. There's an absolute monster with Hafar who was in the under 20s behind them and Whitcombe who was an odd exclusion from the age grade squad having looked entirely comfortable propping at senior level. Been a while since I remember there being so much buzz about various props coming through, must have been about three years back when we had all of Heyes, Street and Painter vying for the tighthead spot. It's a great spot to be in, particularly when you consider who threadbare competition at prop has been for England in recent times.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 18 Aug 2021, 8:41 pm

Turning to Academy players is a consequence of the reduced Salary Cap - but it’s great for bringing new players through. JVP is definitely one to watch, and I was really impressed with Baxter in the U20s. I think he has switched to loosehead because Quins have excellent depth on the tighthead side (Louw, a fit-again Collier and Kerrod) but are lighter on the other side (Garcia Botta is a big step down from Marler and Els has potential but has barely played through injury). If he can stay fit, he could be a worthy heir to Marler. Musk, Head, Tizard and Hammond all look ready for 1st XV rugby, and then there’s Kenningham, who may have to wait for an international chance having missed it in the summer self-isolating.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 18 Aug 2021, 8:49 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

Yep a scrum half that can't pass has more than 100 caps across several England coaches and has been selected for the last three Lions Tours (opting out of two of them). That's before we consider the 14 year club career in the Prem. Still only 31 so looks likely to overtake the Funbus and be England's most capped (male) player.

Tigers fan by any chance?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 19 Aug 2021, 8:32 am

Since Care was cut adrift Youngs has looked comfortable and not too fussed. Will be great to see if Randall can push him; he should. Going back to the tactics it would really draw a line in the sand should we start with him and Smith. Surely in the review after the 6Ns both results and style will have been discussed. I don't buy that England can't play and Jones just wants to kick, he'll know the execution wasn't great and that we went too far in being predictable in how we went about kicking. There's a lot said about NZ kicking alot but that comes with stretching defences and clever kicks behind not merely box kicks.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 19 Aug 2021, 11:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Since Care was cut adrift Youngs has looked comfortable and not too fussed. Will be great to see if Randall can push him; he should. 

It's one thing England desperately need is competition. From 1 to 15 has been too easy to predict for a while now with the only exception being maybe hooker. Competition pushes players on and post RWC we haven't seen the level of intensity we need in terms of competition. 

Fresh blood in Randall, Smith, Marchant, Malins, Ribbans, Blamire etc is just what we need to step things up a little bit. I don't think throwing away all the experienced players in key positions is a wise choice but giving them shirt with no competition is little better. In regards to someone like Benny you don't get more than 100 caps without being able to develop your game, if he finds Randall is bypassing him because Eddie wants more tempo then that's how Ben broke through initially. That competition then pushes young Randall to round out his game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 19 Aug 2021, 11:51 am

Youngs' game is fully developed. Time for someone new!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 19 Aug 2021, 11:57 am

Young has followed his role diligently as requested by Jones. Care refused to and got binned.

Maybe with new tactics Youngs can play a different way.

We will only know come the AI's....if he doesnt perform...then move him on.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 19 Aug 2021, 12:05 pm

He can play a different way, all the scrum halfs we have can. Is he going to be as good as other options; no. Despite the hyperbole from Sgt he's right that for an international scrum half, his passing is shocking and he's not providing enough of a threat himself to negate that as he has in the past.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 19 Aug 2021, 12:31 pm

We shall see come the AI's....

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 19 Aug 2021, 2:15 pm

AIs will be broadcast on Amazon Prime it's been announced.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/amazon-prime-to-broadcast-mens-november-tests

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 19 Aug 2021, 2:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He can play a different way, all the scrum halfs we have can. Is he going to be as good as other options; no. Despite the hyperbole from Sgt he's right that for an international scrum half, his passing is shocking and he's not providing enough of a threat himself to negate that as he has in the past.

We've heard that repeatedly though. It's was Youngs Vs Care and it was all about Care being more than bench impact and given a start it wasn't. Youngs Vs Heniz and the Kiwi had better basics only when games were played he wasn't the better option. Recently it's been Robson but he was so far out of his depth in the 6N he couldn't see the surface. Randall has looked good but against what opposition? USA and Canada not much of a challenge.

I'm looking forward to seeing Randall come into the EPS and show what he can do but the suggestion one of our most capped players of all time is washed up at 31 is a bit blinkered by the new shiny thing. Youngs had a fair 6N, the team was abysmal but Youngs was a solid 7/10. 

The problems for me are lack of competition, attacking structure, indiscipline and lack of backline balance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 19 Aug 2021, 2:58 pm

And we saw better performance by Care and Heinz, age is probably the only reason either didnt get the longer term chance. Robson has been on par with Youngs ie not that good hence my optimism for Randall in the short term, Quirke in the short to medium (as vP now seems slowed by Wigglesworth).

I don't think Youngs is washed up really as he's been limited for a while and no real youngster that has turned Jones' head. Youngs had a good 6Ns by his recent standards; thats the problem.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 19 Aug 2021, 3:17 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:AIs will be broadcast on Amazon Prime it's been announced.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/amazon-prime-to-broadcast-mens-november-tests

Damn it. Was hoping they'd go back to sky or more hopefully move to BT. The cameras just seem blurring when it pulls out to the wide view, don't know what they do.

All of the Welsh tests as well, normally on the BBC. Fingers crossed they're going to put a bit more effort in this year.


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