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Post by king_carlos Tue 10 Aug 2021, 4:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12. Wink

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power! Whistle

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:05 pm

Nic Dolly! Wow....

So Underhill is in...and no Kenningham.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:Wow. Nic Dolly but no Jamie George. Even as a Tigers fan that's baffling to me!

Jeez i missed no J.George!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:06 pm

And no Ludlow....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:07 pm

And no Ben Earl...

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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:07 pm

That's the squad in positions.

1.Marler, Genge
2.Cowan-Dickie, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Watson, Freeman
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank

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Post by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:08 pm

No Vunipolas. No George (which amazes me). Generally very exciting

Dolly has been scoring tries for fun but he's so new to this level. Maybe Eddie likes to have another Australian accent around.

Blamire does look ready for this level.

I would assume George will come in if LCD is injured.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:12 pm

Amazed more that Marchant is not there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:19 pm

Like that squad alot. Quibbles here and there but I've seen far worse.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:20 pm

Marchant's absence really surprises me. He has such a rounded game and is very good in attack. Seems a good foil for two playmakers inside him or even Manu being used at 12 on occasion.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:22 pm

Do we think any of the uncapped players will get on the pitch? Quirke must have a good chance but he's got stiff competition

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Post by hugehandoff Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:23 pm

To be fair we need to see what a few of these youngsters can offer prior to the 6Ns. We will see who from the dropped established players really wants to get back in which is what Eddie is asking?

He can still start:

Marler
LCD
Sincks
Itoje
Hill
Lawes
Curry
Underhill
Randall
Smith
Radwan
Farrell
Manu
Watson
Steward

Bench
Genge
Blamire/Dolly
Stuart/Davison
Martin
Simmonds/Dombrandt
Youngs
Slade
Malins

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Post by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:24 pm

No Lawrence either

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:25 pm

I don't really get Callum Chick's inclusion. He's a solid player but doesn't strike me as a "must have".

That said I really like this squad. Be interesting to see how Maro's injury is.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:25 pm

So Eddies first choice from that lot?

1.Marler,
2.Cowan-Dickie,
3.Sinckler,
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Dombrandt

9.Youngs
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Tuilagi / Slade - Unsure
14.Watson,
15.Steward /Malins - Unsure

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:27 pm

I don't know, the squad worries me a little bit.  There are number of players in there that seem pretty average.  I know Dolly is playing well, but is he really international quality?  I guess we'll find out.  I could say the same about Davidson.  He is a good honest pro, but would Heyes not have been the progressive choice?  For me Ewels and Atkinson also fall into that category.  

On the positive side, super happy to see Marler back in there.  I'm also pleased to see Dombrandt, if only to stop the internet exploding!  The two young 9s are a positive.  Freeman is slightly left-field, but I like the cut of his jib.  Martin continues his learning curve, which is a good thing.


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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:27 pm

Exciting squad for me.
When was the last time no Wasps players (injuries aside) were in an England squad?
No real complaints there though. Although I personally rate Robson above Youngs. Hopefully Randall & Quirke can transition in for next year.
Only 3 from Sarries to.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:28 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I don't really get Callum Chick's inclusion. He's a solid player but doesn't strike me as a "must have".

That said I really like this squad. Be interesting to see how Maro's injury is.

Callums playing great for us to be fair. Maybe Eddie just wants to see if hes a good prem player or can make the step up. Interesting battle between Chick and Tom Willis.

Although not sure how that works with Ewells

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:30 pm

So will Louis Lynagh be an Aussie then?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:30 pm

Great to see young Tommy Freeman get a shout, probably in for the experience, but he is an exciting prospect amongst a lot of exciting prospects at Saints. Another 14/15 like Malins and also Furbank at 15/10.

The bench is going to be as interesting as if you take the first name as the likely starting 15 who covers who. Farrell covers 10, but then who covers 12, Tuilagi can move across but who of the likely nonstarters covers 13, there is Slade which means one of the exciting younger players get benched, I don't think any of Freeman, Malins or Furbank have any serious time at 13. Maybe Malins or Furbank would go to 10 leaving Farrell at 12.

If Farrell gets injured, same scenario.

Only room for 9, a centre and a back three player as I see it.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:32 pm

i hope Manu actually stays fit to play....

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:34 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:So Eddies first choice from that lot?

1.Marler,
2.Cowan-Dickie,
3.Sinckler,
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Dombrandt

9.Youngs
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Tuilagi / Slade - Unsure
14.Watson,
15.Steward /Malins - Unsure

GF, even without the bias, I would have Lawes in over Hill 9 days a week. So has just about every coach he has played under.

What would be interesting late on in the game is to see Manu and Slade together with Smith, to me that offers the best of most worlds.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:35 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Great to see young Tommy Freeman get a shout, probably in for the experience, but he is an exciting prospect amongst a lot of exciting prospects at Saints. Another 14/15 like Malins and also Furbank at 15/10.

The bench is going to be as interesting as if you take the first name as the likely starting 15 who covers who. Farrell covers 10, but then who covers 12, Tuilagi can move across but who of the likely nonstarters covers 13, there is Slade which means one of the exciting younger players get benched, I don't think any of Freeman, Malins or Furbank have any serious time at 13. Maybe Malins or Furbank would go to 10 leaving Farrell at 12.

If Farrell gets injured, same scenario.

Only room for 9, a centre and a back three player as I see it.


Steward played centre when he was younger and once for Tigers. Not sure I'd want him there by choice but as an emergency cover option he might do the job, he wouldn't be pushed around physically.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:39 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So Eddies first choice from that lot?

1.Marler,
2.Cowan-Dickie,
3.Sinckler,
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Dombrandt

9.Youngs
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Tuilagi / Slade - Unsure
14.Watson,
15.Steward /Malins - Unsure

GF, even without the bias, I would have Lawes in over Hill 9 days a week. So has just about every coach he has played under.

What would be interesting late on in the game is to see Manu and Slade together with Smith, to me that offers the best of most worlds.

So would i, but Jones has different thoughts....

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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:40 pm

1.Marler
2.LCD
3.Sinckler
4.Itoje
5.Lawes
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Dombrandt

9.Youngs
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Tuilagi
14.Watson
15.Steward

16.Blamire
17.Genge
18.Stuart
19.Hill
20.Simmonds
21.Randall
22.Slade
23.Radwan

I could see something like that.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:53 pm

I suspect Eddie is doing the apprentice players thing again - he regularly calls up very green uncapped players to give them exposure to the camp and tell them how much they need to improve, and then sends them back to their clubs for as long as it takes for him to deem them ready.

It would be a big surprise if the match day XXIIIs look radically different from what’s been posted above.

Marchant’s omission remains the big surprise for me - he’s been in exceptional form for nearly a year now and offers an option at 13 or wing plus a level of creativity and awareness on the pitch. Not quite sure what more he can do to establish himself.

Still, assuming Watson is fit to play, that’s a back three + sub with a lot of potential however you perm them. Radwan may have to wait his turn from the bench - but in many ways I think he’ll be so much more dangerous coming on as the game starts to break up.
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Post by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:56 pm

Ollie Lawrence out, presumably because Manu is back in.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So Eddies first choice from that lot?

1.Marler,
2.Cowan-Dickie,
3.Sinckler,
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Dombrandt

9.Youngs
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Tuilagi / Slade - Unsure
14.Watson,
15.Steward /Malins - Unsure

GF, even without the bias, I would have Lawes in over Hill 9 days a week. So has just about every coach he has played under.

What would be interesting late on in the game is to see Manu and Slade together with Smith, to me that offers the best of most worlds.

So would i, but Jones has different thoughts....

To me Hill is an exceptional club player with a club that play to his strengths, as the Lions showed, he struggles to move up to the next level. I am not even sure that he adds much to the set piece despite his size. There are a number of players around now that are playing better than him. I think I actually prefer Ewels, who to be fair has not let England down when called upon.
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Post by Poorfour Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:So will Louis Lynagh be an Aussie then?

Technically, he's Italian by birth and I believe parentage. But he qualifies for Oz by his other parent and England by residency (and possibly citizenship)
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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:22 pm

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Heyes
4.Ribbans
5.Isiekwe
6.Hill
7.Earl
8.Vunipola

9.JvP
10.Ford

11.Hassell-Collins
12.Lawrence
13.Marchant
14.Lynagh
15.Nowell

Not selected XV.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:22 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Great to see young Tommy Freeman get a shout, probably in for the experience, but he is an exciting prospect amongst a lot of exciting prospects at Saints. Another 14/15 like Malins and also Furbank at 15/10.

The bench is going to be as interesting as if you take the first name as the likely starting 15 who covers who. Farrell covers 10, but then who covers 12, Tuilagi can move across but who of the likely nonstarters covers 13, there is Slade which means one of the exciting younger players get benched, I don't think any of Freeman, Malins or Furbank have any serious time at 13. Maybe Malins or Furbank would go to 10 leaving Farrell at 12.

If Farrell gets injured, same scenario.

Only room for 9, a centre and a back three player as I see it.


I suspect we could move May to 13 if things get that bad.

I know Nowell was always going to be a long shot but he's another guy who can genuinely play pretty much anywhere behind the FH (maybe not inside center)

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:23 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So will Louis Lynagh be an Aussie then?

Technically, he's Italian by birth and I believe parentage. But he qualifies for Oz by his other parent and England by residency (and possibly citizenship)

Yes but with Koroibete not touring the Aussies might just fancy testing his allegiances..

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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:41 pm

Nick Isiekwe has been terrific for Sarries so far. Really surprised he's out in the cold. Great lineout leader and jumper, good in lineout defence as well and offers more around the park than Ewels.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 18 Oct 2021, 4:58 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So Eddies first choice from that lot?

1.Marler,
2.Cowan-Dickie,
3.Sinckler,
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Dombrandt

9.Youngs
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Tuilagi / Slade - Unsure
14.Watson,
15.Steward /Malins - Unsure

GF, even without the bias, I would have Lawes in over Hill 9 days a week. So has just about every coach he has played under.

What would be interesting late on in the game is to see Manu and Slade together with Smith, to me that offers the best of most worlds.

So would i, but Jones has different thoughts....

Wasn't Hill persevered with whilst Lawes was injured last season? Hill was also in great form to be fair he's just not been able to step up to international rugby. I'm surprised Ewels has survived the cull what with his fairly dire start to the season but Eddie clearly doesn't fancy other options. With Martin there as the hard hitting, lineout jumping blindside option it should mean Lawes can concentrate on partnering Itoje.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 18 Oct 2021, 5:04 pm

It really does leave you questioning the decision to pick Ludlow over the summer. Pick a player out of relative obscurity, make him captain and then just bin him in the space of six months and a couple of matches. I mean, what was the point?
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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct 2021, 5:32 pm

Cumbrian wrote:It really does leave you questioning the decision to pick Ludlow over the summer.  Pick a player out of relative obscurity, make him captain and then just bin him in the space of six months and a couple of matches.  I mean, what was the point?  

I think Ludlam has just absolutely outplayed him since then to be honest. Ludlow hasn't been poor, wasn't in the summer either, but Ludlam has been very good indeed for Saints and just forced Ludlow out on merit.

I still think Earl is even better than Ludlam as I've said before but I don't have any qualms at all with Ludlam being in the England squad. He's a terrific openside.

As for him being captain, when all the established players are away with the Lions I've not much issue with a Premiership skipper getting the armband for a couple of games. Had Genge been Tigers skipper by then he'd have been in the frame and is a larger part of England's plans but at that point I think Gengey had skippered one game in senior rugby! There weren't many captaincy options left in that summer squad though. I think Slade has skippered Exeter a few times?

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 18 Oct 2021, 5:51 pm

Agree about Marchant.  Really thought he was almost a given.  And would deal with the issue with cover in the back line.  

I think we will see very different squads to take on Tonga and the Wallabies/Boks.  For Tonga I would expect along the line of both young 9s (don't care who starts and who is on the bench), Smith, Atkinson (why else is he here?), Tuilagi, Radwan, Malins, Steward with Furbank and Freeman on the bench.  

Forwards are anyone's guess, but likely Blamire will/should start.  Can't figure out how Jones would go with the rest, but think Lawes will not play against Tonga, but will against Aus and SA.  This is the perfect place for Martin to start, and who knows which 8 will go?  England could have a pretty fast back row.

It is funny, but I am looking forward to this squad and what Jones does with it.  I also don't think these selections eliminate Jamie George, or the Vunipolas.  To me, this is the kind of rotation/experimentation/evaluation which should have been done in the spring.  

Anyone know if tixx for the Tonga match are still available?  I will - finally - be home for a while and want to take in a match at HQ.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 18 Oct 2021, 5:59 pm

Perhaps, but given the opposition, I'm not entirely sure it would have mattered if they had given the captaincy to a more inexperienced option. Especially as Ludlow decided to knee somebody in the head 20 odd minutes into one of the games! Ted Hill captains Worcester and Ben Curry captained England U20s, I'd say both have more potential to go on and have a longer international career than Ludlow.

I guess it doesn't really matter, it was two games against limited opposition. I just find it difficult to understand Eddie's decisions sometimes.


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Post by cb Mon 18 Oct 2021, 6:07 pm

I would mostly echo other people's ideas.  Quite a number of good players not in the squad but the one exception for me is Marchant - I would like to have seen Smith, Manu, & Marchant at 10/12/13.

Perhaps Freeman, Dolly & Davidson are fortunate selections but could come good.  However if you were playing the Boks tomorrow would you chose Dolly or George?

You could also form the basis of good pack from the missing Saracens: Vunipola x 2, George, Isiekwe, Earl.

This is more commentary then criticism though.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 18 Oct 2021, 8:25 pm

Unpicked 23:

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Heyes
4. Ribbans
5. Isiekwe
6. Earl
7. Kenningham
8. Vunipola
9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Muir
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Stevenson
15. Hodge

Langdon, Obano, Hill, Willis, JVP, Umaga, S James.

Back three isn't that competitive but the rest of the squad would be. If Itoje is out injured then I reckon the packs aren't that far apart.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Oct 2021, 8:41 pm

I reckon if LCD is injured for the matches then George will come straight into the side.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 18 Oct 2021, 9:10 pm

I'm not sure he'll put a totally inexperienced side out v Tonga...

Whilst they should win it comfortably...he'll want to get the main side some time together in readiness for the next two games.....

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 19 Oct 2021, 1:09 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Unpicked 23:

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Heyes
4. Ribbans
5. Isiekwe
6. Earl
7. Kenningham
8. Vunipola
9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Muir
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Stevenson
15. Hodge

Langdon, Obano, Hill, Willis, JVP, Umaga, S James.

Back three isn't that competitive but the rest of the squad would be. If Itoje is out injured then I reckon the packs aren't that far apart.
When Isiekwe partnered with Ribbans last season, they worked very well together, though Nick frequently played the Lawes role at blindside. I was actually a bit surprised Jones picked Freeman instead of Sleightholme. Must be continued concern about the future at 15, which is where Freeman did most of his damage last season.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 19 Oct 2021, 8:06 am

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Unpicked 23:

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Heyes
4. Ribbans
5. Isiekwe
6. Earl
7. Kenningham
8. Vunipola
9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Muir
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Stevenson
15. Hodge

Langdon, Obano, Hill, Willis, JVP, Umaga, S James.

Back three isn't that competitive but the rest of the squad would be. If Itoje is out injured then I reckon the packs aren't that far apart.
When Isiekwe partnered with Ribbans last season, they worked very well together, though Nick frequently played the Lawes role at blindside.  I was actually a bit surprised Jones picked Freeman instead of Sleightholme.  Must be continued concern about the future at 15, which is where Freeman did most of his damage last season.  

I did wonder if Eddie was looking at Malins and Freeman as long term replacements for Watson. With both having the fullback skills but also the pace to play on the wing it would work with a more expansive attack and the kick to compete game that Eddie likes.

I'm not sure he's concerned about the future at 15 he's got three good young fullbacks in the squad. I'm interested to see if he goes with Malins or Steward as I presume those are the leading options as Steward isn't really a winger and Malins seemed to be on the cusp of getting the gig in the 6N.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 19 Oct 2021, 9:55 am

England have a load of fullback options - Lynagh played there until he reached the Quins senior squad, Nowell has played there and so on.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Oct 2021, 10:27 am

Steward a mile ahead for me as I'm longing of seeing the high balls go up and not be amazed by a full back catches them. Its SA's key attacking strategy unless they change route quickly and I'd like to see him have  a couple of games to acclimatise going into that. Malins hasn't been a preferred full back for any of his teams, perfect bench option covering 10, wing and 15 for me from this squad. Think that Freeman starts behind those 2 and possibly Watson, seems a pick to come in and have a look at him.

I see the injured guys are having various scans this week so it's possibly that a few players come and go still.

Seen that Jones has namechecked Lynagh, or at least was directly asked and has said he's given him some areas to work on.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 19 Oct 2021, 10:42 am

I didnt realise Itoje was a potentially injured one..

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 19 Oct 2021, 10:58 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I didnt realise Itoje was a potentially injured one..

Hurt I think his hand and came off early into the second half Vs Bath.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 19 Oct 2021, 11:00 am

I'd agree that Steward looks to be out ahead - though I wonder if given his size he will need to do what Mike Brown did and work on adjusting his stride pattern so that he can accelerate faster. He looks great at club level but will have less time at international level so acceleration becomes much more critical.

But then, Eddie has shown he's quite happy to sacrifice security in a fullback for a more attacking option.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 19 Oct 2021, 11:11 am

Id have Steward every day of the week....however, id be amazed if Malins doesnt start.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Oct 2021, 11:18 am

Poorfour wrote:I'd agree that Steward looks to be out ahead - though I wonder if given his size he will need to do what Mike Brown did and work on adjusting his stride pattern so that he can accelerate faster. He looks great at club level but will have less time at international level so acceleration becomes much more critical.

But then, Eddie has shown he's quite happy to sacrifice security in a fullback for a more attacking option.

Having watched Freddie a lot from a young age I don't think pace will be an issue defensively. His positioning is so good that he isn't a fullback to be burnt by wingers when he's tracking back to cover probing kicks. He's actually been fantastic at doing that for Tigers.

Whether he struggles to offer much joining the line in attack will be interesting against international defences. The step up in quality of defences at international level from the Premiership is huge. Close to the line Steward tends to run really good lines off 9 and 10 to use his size to try to get over the line. Further out he acts as a distributor or support runner rather than scything through like some fullbacks do.

Jones also showed he was happy to sacrifice attacking options for security in picking Brown as first choice fullback for a long time though!

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