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Glasgow and Edinburgh - Unceasing Banter Thread 27

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Post by George Carlin Mon 23 Aug 2021, 10:59 am

First topic message reminder :

For those Scottish and Scottish-rugby interested posters who just cannot seem to shut the feic up about it.

26,000 posts of abject nonsense and incorrect usage of the quote function (and counting).

We should be proud. king
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Post by RDW Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:11 am

I think/hope the Glasgow incident is massively skewing things - I don't think anyone has claimed that was a try and it was a pretty appealing error from the ref. But it means the Book fans have that in the back of their mind when seeing any other apparent injustice, and before you know it a conspiracy theory has formed. I had already seen the massive social media backlash before I watched the game and - trying to be as objective as possible given it was my team - paid close attention to the penalties and key decisions.

You mention the breakdown but again Edinburgh gave away multiple penalties at the breakdown themselves. It was far from one sided traffic. And breakdown penalties are notoriously hard to fathom sometimes as you could probably give a penalty every ruck! They also massively differ between refereeing interpretation week on week.

I said it before but refereeing in the Pro 12/14/16 has been an issue basic from day 1. It has got better, but there's still a lot of work to do. Unfortunately a lot of SA fans are now experiencing this but seeing it as a deliberate injustice.

The thing that annoys me in all this is the selective memories - as I said as an example the complaints about Bismarck having his penalty reversed when Crosbie gave away the exact same pen in the 2nd half.

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Post by Old Man Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:20 am

RDW, the problem is when a trend shows, I will see if I have time this week to work some stats, my perception is that the SA teams in the 16 matches they have played so far have copped a boatload of penalties in the first halves of the matches they have played.

I am sure other than the Lions opening match no SA team has had a lead at halftime, but need to check my facts.

When a team is penalised so heavily in the opening stages of a match it means they are chasing the game from the start.

There have been a few other calls like supposed late tackles etc which have been questionable as well.

I am not saying the referees are deliberately biased, they are all professionals.

However it feels like there is a perception that by the way of our physical approach to the game we infringe more, and it seems that perception is going to be very hard to break.

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Post by RDW Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:21 am

Oh trying to give an alternative example of selective memories - I saw a lot of Edinburgh fans complain that our lineout was a shambles. We actually won 13/17 which isn't far off normal lineout stats in a game. Problem is, the 4 we did lose were 10m from the Bulls line! So everyone remembered those missed lineouts and forgets that the significant majority of lineouts were fine.

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Post by Old Man Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:23 am

As for the TMO reviews, that is an area which should not be hard at all to be consistent about. When referees are inconsistent with that, it is understandable that supporters will be unhappy. 

The reality is the SA teams have huge challenges in their first season, they don't need additional challenges.

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Post by RDW Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:24 am

Old Man wrote:RDW, the problem is when a trend shows, I will see if I have time this week to work some stats, my perception is that the SA teams in the 16 matches they have played so far have copped a boatload of penalties in the first halves of the matches they have played.

I am sure other than the Lions opening match no SA team has had a lead at halftime, but need to check my facts.

When a team is penalised so heavily in the opening stages of a match it means they are chasing the game from the start.

There have been a few other calls like supposed late tackles etc which have been questionable as well.

I am not saying the referees are deliberately biased, they are all professionals.

However it feels like there is a perception that by the way of our physical approach to the game we infringe more, and it seems that perception is going to be very hard to break.

How much of this is because the 16 games have been away from home?

I have absolutely no stats to back this up, but I wouldn't be surprised if away teams give away a lot more penalties. Teams win much more.home games than away games, and a big feature of that would be a favourable penalty count when playing at home.

Will be interesting to compare those 16 away games with the equivalent 16 home games!

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Post by Old Man Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:26 am

The mauls is also very confusing to me.

The European teams have mastered the art of bullshitting the referee in the manner they defend it.

Numerous times I hear the referee shout "don't change the bind" and then they get away with it.

It is easy to con a referee and seal a maul from behind when somehow you manage to swing around the maul and then "legally" end at the back of it.

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Post by Old Man Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:27 am

RDW wrote:
Old Man wrote:RDW, the problem is when a trend shows, I will see if I have time this week to work some stats, my perception is that the SA teams in the 16 matches they have played so far have copped a boatload of penalties in the first halves of the matches they have played.

I am sure other than the Lions opening match no SA team has had a lead at halftime, but need to check my facts.

When a team is penalised so heavily in the opening stages of a match it means they are chasing the game from the start.

There have been a few other calls like supposed late tackles etc which have been questionable as well.

I am not saying the referees are deliberately biased, they are all professionals.

However it feels like there is a perception that by the way of our physical approach to the game we infringe more, and it seems that perception is going to be very hard to break.

How much of this is because the 16 games have been away from home?

I have absolutely no stats to back this up, but I wouldn't be surprised if away teams give away a lot more penalties. Teams win much more.home games than away games, and a big feature of that would be a favourable penalty count when playing at home.

Will be interesting to compare those 16 away games with the equivalent 16 home games!
I am sure being away will have an effect, I will follow the stats during the season to see trends and confirm them.

Are the SA referees officiating in SA or will it be neutral referees from Europe?

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Post by RDW Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:32 am

No idea mate.

It would have made sense to have brought the Saffer refs over for this bank of fixtures to get them up to speed too.

Worth remembering this was a Welsh ref so completely neutral - I'd be surprised if it was Saffer refs doing all of the games in SA, although Covid restrictions may require that.

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Post by Old Man Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:35 am

I would expect it to be neutral referees especially now the SA is off the red list

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Post by jimbopip Sun 17 Oct 2021, 1:26 pm

Just to change the mood a little...
Four tickets for Exeter Chiefs v The Rugby Club just bought. Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo
I had to attend my old club's first team fixture yesterday; Bigson and Pipetto were both benching and it was the first home game in ages. I met Big Jason who used to play second row when I captained the thirds. For the last 20 minutes Bigson and his son were in the second row together. I asked if his boy was still in the Royal Marines, it seems he is and is stationed in Exeter. well one thing led to another so now Big Jase, Caz the Quiet Bok, Bigson and myself are Exeter bound. Yahoo
Should be interesting.

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Post by TJ Sun 17 Oct 2021, 2:07 pm

OLD man - you need to look at the penalty state - one game I watched the SA side had 4 pens against - the NH side 12

Any fan watching only sees the things that go wrong against their side - not the things that benefit their side

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Post by Old Man Sun 17 Oct 2021, 2:22 pm

I have checked the total penalties, whilst the SA sides are on the high side, it isn't astrnomical.

That isn't my issue, it is the interpretation at the breakdowns and the fact that the SA sides are penalised heavily in the first stanzas.

If I have time I will look at when they concede the most penalties.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 17 Oct 2021, 4:09 pm

Just caught up with the Edinburgh game. Delighted with that win, we’re getting better every week at the moment and that’s great to see. Definitely got the rub of the green with the disallowed try, but you have to ride your luck sometimes and we often seem to be on the wrong end of the big calls!

Some particular highlights; our defence was far less passive than last weekend and we really made the Bulls work for territory rather than giving up metres softly. Crosby had a much bigger impact on the game than he has yet this season, Bradbury looked like he cared, Bennett was my PoM he was massive in defence, had some lovely moments in attack and kicking for goal. So good to seem him back and playing a key role in this side. Shiel had a massive game, we suddenly have some serious competition at 9. And how good was our scrum?! Proper weapon at points in that game.

I was critical of Immelman last week, this week he was better with his kicking for touch but he does seem to be particularly prone to errors when he’s tired at the end of the match. Missed touch and followed up with a seatbelt tackle in the last 2 minutes. Would still like to see him tighten up on that, but he’s going in the right direction.

Things are looking promising, there is even a decent atmosphere at the stadium! Library no more??

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Post by jimbopip Mon 18 Oct 2021, 2:34 pm

Old Man wrote:I have checked the total penalties, whilst the SA sides are on the high side, it isn't astrnomical.

That isn't my issue, it is the interpretation at the breakdowns and the fact that the SA sides are penalised heavily in the first stanzas.

If I have time I will look at when they concede the most penalties.

Old Man, be careful that you're not sending yourself on a wild goose chase. There are a few truisms in sport; away teams concede more fouls than home teams, losing teams concede more fouls than winning teams. Add to this the fact that at most breakdowns a ref could give any one of half a dozen infringements. Refs tend to sort this out by penalising either; the most blatant offence, or the offence which is most likely to have an unfair impact on the outcome of the challenge for possession. In the second case there is usually a huge, unintended, bias towards the attacking side. i.e. if the infringement is deemed to stop a try scoring opportunity that is the most grievous offence and the one to be pinged. Now, since the saffer sides are all playing away from home then stochastically the penalty count should go against them. Secondly, the style de jour in SA rugby at the moment is to want to play without the ball. One unintended consequence of this is that you are more likely to be penalised at the breakdown as your infringements are stopping try scoring opportunities being created.
Once the saffer sides are playing at home; attacking more, pinning the opposition back etc, then I expect to see the penalty count in their favour regardless of who is refereeing.


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Post by Old Man Mon 18 Oct 2021, 2:49 pm

jimbo, I disagree on two counts. Our franchises play more ball in hand than our Boks, by far. Many of the penalties conceded were at attacking rucks, not defensive rucks.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:03 pm

Fair play, OM, if that's what you've seen. Be honest, they couldn't possibly play with LESS ball in hand than the Boks. Shocked

I do remember a video of one of Dave Rennie's early coaching sessions at Glasgow; it was on jackalling at the ruck and he was basically showing how to support your weight by placing your knees on the side of the tackled player.
"I don't know fellas, what are the refs over here like around that?" is what I seem to remember.
The point isn't that DR was an unscrupulous cheat, but rather that he learned how the refs reffed and behaved accordingly. There does seem to be a difference in application of the laws between the hemispheres: perhaps the coaches of the saffer sides could have been more diligent in their research?

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Post by Old Man Mon 18 Oct 2021, 3:36 pm

It has been a quest for the coaches to figure it out, they have had numerous sessions outside of match day with the European referees on their interpretations of the laws.

SA possession or lack there of is a  bit of a myth.

Possession stats of the Rugby Championship for SA
Game 1 52%
Game 2 56%
Game 3 50%
Game 4 59%
Game 5 52%
Game 6 53%

You see perceptions are created by media and people blindly follow those perceptions.
SA kicks a lot, therefor they don't have equitable possession.

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Post by Old Man Mon 18 Oct 2021, 7:36 pm

This from Jake White after their last match.

It was difficult. What happened there is that we weren’t getting any joy at the breakdown. Every time we carried the ball two phases, we generally got it turned over or gave a penalty away.

“So, it felt like at times that we were sort of getting strangled by playing [attacking rugby]. Typically, the naivety and inexperience is then like a catch-22, because you know you’ve got to keep playing to win, but you also know that you are not getting any joy by going for two, three phases, because you are turning the ball over.”

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Post by jimbopip Mon 18 Oct 2021, 8:13 pm

Old Man wrote:It has been a quest for the coaches to figure it out, they have had numerous sessions outside of match day with the European referees on their interpretations of the laws.

SA possession or lack there of is a  bit of a myth.

Possession stats of the Rugby Championship for SA
Game 1 52%
Game 2 56%
Game 3 50%
Game 4 59%
Game 5 52%
Game 6 53%

You see perceptions are created by media and people blindly follow those perceptions.
SA kicks a lot, therefor they don't have equitable possession.

As Scott Johnson once said, "Statistics are a bit like a bikini what they conceal is as interesting as what they show."

Where the two highest figures (59%and 56 %) against the Pumas?
Do these figures just show that the Wallabies and the All Blacks were more successful in their kicking game than the Springboks?

Either way is it really relevant to the URC?

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Post by Old Man Mon 18 Oct 2021, 8:16 pm

First two vs Argentins, next two OZ next two NZ

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Post by Old Man Mon 18 Oct 2021, 8:19 pm

jimbopip wrote:
Old Man wrote:It has been a quest for the coaches to figure it out, they have had numerous sessions outside of match day with the European referees on their interpretations of the laws.

SA possession or lack there of is a  bit of a myth.

Possession stats of the Rugby Championship for SA
Game 1 52%
Game 2 56%
Game 3 50%
Game 4 59%
Game 5 52%
Game 6 53%

You see perceptions are created by media and people blindly follow those perceptions.
SA kicks a lot, therefor they don't have equitable possession.

As Scott Johnson once said, "Statistics are a bit like a bikini what they conceal is as interesting as what they show."

Where the two highest figures (59%and 56 %) against the Pumas?
Do these figures just show that the Wallabies and the All Blacks were more successful in their kicking game than the Springboks?

Either way is it really relevant to the URC?

If you analyse the matches, SA lost the first test vs OZ and the first test vs NZ in the final minute via penalties, both matches they led going into the last minute.

The only "poor" performance from the Boks came in round four vs OZ.

The results could just as well have been 5/6 for SA, that is how close it was.

The relevance is you mentioned can anybody play with less ball than the Boks, the possession stats prove the Boks had more possession than is percoeved.

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Post by RDW Tue 19 Oct 2021, 9:10 am

Duncan Hodge has been appointed assistant coach for Fiji this autumn tour - a match made in heaven....! Laugh

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Post by BigGee Tue 19 Oct 2021, 9:29 am

RDW wrote:Duncan Hodge has been appointed assistant coach for Fiji this autumn tour - a match made in heaven....! Laugh


Yeah but you just know that they will now start playing wildly adventurous rugby with him at the helm of their attack now!

To be honest anyone who tries to get Fiji to rein it in a bit and play with some structure might be doing them a favor!

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue 19 Oct 2021, 6:10 pm

https://www.theoffsideline.com/super6-finals-weekend-tol-team-of-the-week/

Final team of the week from TOL on Super 6. Hopefully they do a team of the season.

It is great to see that Venter and Muncaster get a mention as they should be too good for this level. Baretto kept getting mentioned this year as has Archie Russell and think Henry got a few mentions. Hopefully some of the guys doing well in the Super 6 can get opportunities.

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Post by BigGee Tue 19 Oct 2021, 10:18 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/super6-finals-weekend-tol-team-of-the-week/

Final team of the week from TOL on Super 6. Hopefully they do a team of the season.

It is great to see that Venter and Muncaster get a mention as they should be too good for this level. Baretto kept getting mentioned this year as has Archie Russell and think Henry got a few mentions. Hopefully some of the guys doing well in the Super 6 can get opportunities.


Probably fair to say that the Super 6 has exceeded all expectations. I have certainly been impressed with the quality of the games I have seen and have certainly enjoyed watching them.

Lets hope that they can continue to develop the competition and it continuous to improve.

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Post by BigGee Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:24 am

Looks like all the Scotland players are back with their clubs now getting ready for this weeks games.

Zander and Ali Price both featuring in Glasgow's media released pictures this week, which strongly suggests we will see them on the field against Leinster.

I can see Glasgow going fully primed for this one, maybe something like this:

1. Bhatti
2. Turner - Brown looked like he got injured last week
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gray
5. Bean
6. Wilson
7. Darge
8. Dempsey
9. Price
10. Thompson
11. Mclean
12. Johnson
13. Tuipolotu
14. Steyn
15. Forbes


Subs

Lambert
Mathews
Keeble
Harley
Fagerson M
Dobie
Miotti
Cancilierre

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Post by EST Wed 20 Oct 2021, 10:20 am

BigGee wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/super6-finals-weekend-tol-team-of-the-week/

Final team of the week from TOL on Super 6. Hopefully they do a team of the season.

It is great to see that Venter and Muncaster get a mention as they should be too good for this level. Baretto kept getting mentioned this year as has Archie Russell and think Henry got a few mentions. Hopefully some of the guys doing well in the Super 6 can get opportunities.


Probably fair to say that the Super 6 has exceeded all expectations. I have certainly been impressed with the quality of the games I have seen and have certainly enjoyed watching them.

Lets hope that they can continue to develop the competition and it continuous to improve.

It has been excellent this season, helped greatly by the earlier start to the season and the coverage it's received - hat's off to the SRU on this one. The only issue now is what are these teams going to do for the next 8 months?

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Post by EST Wed 20 Oct 2021, 10:27 am

BigGee wrote:Looks like all the Scotland players are back with their clubs now getting ready for this weeks games.

Zander and Ali Price both featuring in Glasgow's media released pictures this week, which strongly suggests we will see them on the field against Leinster.

I can see Glasgow going fully primed for this one, maybe something like this:

1. Bhatti
2. Turner - Brown looked like he got injured last week
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gray
5. Bean
6. Wilson
7. Darge
8. Dempsey
9. Price
10. Thompson
11. Mclean
12. Johnson
13. Tuipolotu
14. Steyn
15. Forbes


Subs

Lambert
Mathews
Keeble
Harley
Fagerson M
Dobie
Miotti
Cancilierre

It's a good looking team BigGee, although I would be tempted to get Dempsey and Fagerson Jnr on the pitch at the same time, and I would start Kebble at LH and have Bhatti and Pierreto on the bench. It will also be great for Thompson to have Price at 9. My main concern is around the boiler room, neither Gray or Bean offer the dynamism Cummings brings. It's probably become the weakest area of the squad.

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Post by BigGee Wed 20 Oct 2021, 11:13 am

EST wrote:
BigGee wrote:Looks like all the Scotland players are back with their clubs now getting ready for this weeks games.

Zander and Ali Price both featuring in Glasgow's media released pictures this week, which strongly suggests we will see them on the field against Leinster.

I can see Glasgow going fully primed for this one, maybe something like this:

1. Bhatti
2. Turner - Brown looked like he got injured last week
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gray
5. Bean
6. Wilson
7. Darge
8. Dempsey
9. Price
10. Thompson
11. Mclean
12. Johnson
13. Tuipolotu
14. Steyn
15. Forbes


Subs

Lambert
Mathews
Keeble
Harley
Fagerson M
Dobie
Miotti
Cancilierre

It's a good looking team BigGee, although I would be tempted to get Dempsey and Fagerson Jnr on the pitch at the same time, and I would start Kebble at LH and have Bhatti and Pierreto on the bench.  It will also be great for Thompson to have Price at 9.  My main concern is around the boiler room, neither Gray or Bean offer the dynamism Cummings brings.  It's probably become the weakest area of the squad.


Agreed about second row, probably the area we most need to strengthen, hence our alleged in the odd giant South African or two!

Where Keeble plays will probably give us some idea of where they see his future. I don't think he can keep being switched from side to side, that won't do him any good in the longer term.

Will await the team announcement with added interest.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed 20 Oct 2021, 3:57 pm

Problem for the second row is Glasgow need to find space for Williamson and Samuel before too long. Both are seen as guys for the future judging by them training with Scotland/captaining u20s so a long term or high priced deal for someone does not make sense. Tim Swinson would have been a good role model in that regard.

McCallum got into the Scotland squad as a TH and I would hope he is given a shot on the bench. Against Leinster, we might as well go for our biggest front 5 with Kebble starting at LH. Lambert has been injured if memory serves and is on the small side.

Whilst I like Wilson, would love to see Dempsey at 6 with M Fagerson at 8 and have Gordon on the bench.

Not sure if I want us to have a go at them or whether I want the forwards to go toe to toe. Whomever Leinster put out, our pack is going to have to be ready to fight over every inch.

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Post by EST Thu 21 Oct 2021, 10:51 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:Problem for the second row is Glasgow need to find space for Williamson and Samuel before too long. Both are seen as guys for the future judging by them training with Scotland/captaining u20s so a long term or high priced deal for someone does not make sense. Tim Swinson would have been a good role model in that regard.

McCallum got into the Scotland squad as a TH and I would hope he is given a shot on the bench. Against Leinster, we might as well go for our biggest front 5 with Kebble starting at LH. Lambert has been injured if memory serves and is on the small side.

Whilst I like Wilson, would love to see Dempsey at 6 with M Fagerson at 8 and have Gordon on the bench.

Not sure if I want us to have a go at them or whether I want the forwards to go toe to toe. Whomever Leinster put out, our pack is going to have to be ready to fight over every inch.

That is true, but these guys are still very young - either 18 or 19 - so I think we could accommodate a signing there at a level above Bain, Bean and McDonald for a couple of years.


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Post by EST Thu 21 Oct 2021, 12:08 pm

1. Jamie Bhatti (51)
2. Johnny Matthews (14)
3. Zander Fagerson (101)
4. Rob Harley (254)
5. Richie Gray (65)
6. Ryan Wilson (C) (196)
7. Rory Darge (7)
8. Jack Dempsey (3)

9. Ali Price (97)
10. Duncan Weir (110)
11. Rufus McLean (13)
12. Sam Johnson (76)
13. Sione Tuipulotu (4)
14. Kyle Steyn (34)
15. Ross Thompson (18)

16. George Turner (63)
17. Oli Kebble (59)
18. Enrique Pieretto (21)
19. Lewis Bean (9)
20. Matt Fagerson (72)
21. George Horne (70)
22. Nick Grigg (93)
23. Cole Forbes (10)

Unavailable for selection: Simon Berghan, Fraser Brown, Scott Cummings, Tom Lambert, Kiran McDonald, Ewan McQuillin, Ratu Tagive.

That's an interesting selection, surprised Weir is starting over Thompson and that he is subsequently picked over Forbes at 15. Still, it's a meaty pack with decent strength off the bench.

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Post by RDW Thu 21 Oct 2021, 12:11 pm

Thompson at 15 really is a strange one

Direction from above...?

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Post by Anglobraveheart Thu 21 Oct 2021, 12:31 pm

RDW wrote:Thompson at 15 really is a strange one

Direction from above...?
Could well be RDW. I'm sure that Thompson could cope with the pressure of playing against a tough Leinster team, who are on a role, and will be miffed at losing last time they came to us.
But, if he is lined up for a start next week against Tonga, maybe it's better that he gets half a game at 15, and the second half at 10? The game should have loosened up a bit by the last 20 mins, and that may suit him better.
He's a good kid, and I think that he will be a future star for us at International level. there is nothing wrong with a bit of considered management of his chance to progress.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Thu 21 Oct 2021, 12:33 pm

Can't complain too much about the pack, it is probably the best we can put out at the moment. Kebble, Turner and M Fagerson off the bench should offer some carrying impetus at the hour mark.

The logic behind Thompson going to 15 could be that we want an additional playmaker on the park early on? Weir is not creative enough by himself (judging by Zebre) and S Johnson is not going to jump into first receiver too often.

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Post by Anglobraveheart Thu 21 Oct 2021, 1:09 pm

I like your thinking Hazel.
I also wonder if Darge will be the back row player that gets subbed for Fagerson? as I really hope that Darge gets the opportunity to start against Tonga next week. He is a very capable openside, who I am sure will take over from Hamish in a couple of years time.

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Post by jimbopip Thu 21 Oct 2021, 8:14 pm

EST wrote:1. Jamie Bhatti (51)
2. Johnny Matthews (14)
3. Zander Fagerson (101)
4. Rob Harley (254)
5. Richie Gray (65)
6. Ryan Wilson (C) (196)
7. Rory Darge (7)
8. Jack Dempsey (3)

9. Ali Price (97)
10. Duncan Weir (110)
11. Rufus McLean (13)
12. Sam Johnson (76)
13. Sione Tuipulotu (4)
14. Kyle Steyn (34)
15. Ross Thompson (18)

16. George Turner (63)
17. Oli Kebble (59)
18. Enrique Pieretto (21)
19. Lewis Bean (9)
20. Matt Fagerson (72)
21. George Horne (70)
22. Nick Grigg (93)
23. Cole Forbes (10)

Unavailable for selection: Simon Berghan, Fraser Brown, Scott Cummings, Tom Lambert, Kiran McDonald, Ewan McQuillin, Ratu Tagive.

That's an interesting selection, surprised Weir is starting over Thompson and that he is subsequently picked over Forbes at 15.  Still, it's a meaty pack with decent strength off the bench.

Ladyboys' lineup
Leinster: Hugo Keenan; Adam Byrne, Garry Ringrose, Ciarán Frawley, James Lowe; Ross Byrne, Luke McGrath (capt); Cian Healy, Ronan Kelleher, Tadhg Furlong; Ross Molony, Ryan Baird; Caelan Doris, Dan Leavy, Jack Conan

Replacements: Ed Byrne, Dan Sheehan, Miachael Ala'alatoa, Devin Toner, Rhys Ruddock, Jamison Gibson Park, Jamie Osborne, Josh van der Flier

So it's a 6-2 split for the visitor's bench. Does this mean they're expecting a hard forwards slog?
Initial thoughts; chin
Healy-Kelleher-Furlong is a hard front row to play against: Bhatti-Matthews-Ragnar will have their work cut out. I think Furlong might have Bhatti on toast.
Ritchie has been superb but I'm not 100% sure about BBB as a second row. Still, if it's going to be a niggly, in the trenches game BBB will revel in it.
Doris-Leavy-Conan is a very good back row.

Fecc it, this is boring me.

There are a few contests which will probably decide the game and also go a long way to telling us whether this Warriors squad are real contenders.

I thought Conan was fantastic on the Lions tour. If he runs through and over Jack Dempsey all evening then the new boy can henceforth be called Flash...as in Flash in the pan.

Rory Darge has been excellent so far but this back row will really test him, especially with Ruddock and V D F to come on.

Likewise Ringrose is way better than any 13 Shona has faced so far. If Shona is left grabbing at shadows he may not be trotting out at Murrayfield this autumn.

Ross Byrne v Ross Thompson would have been worth the admission money, but the Low Fat Meatball is at 10. It's early to say it but either he has a good game or he is soon to be starring in a remake of The Third Man.

Byrne and Lowe against Seaman and Titman? I think Glasgow have the edge there but it will really depend on how and when the ball gets wide. I suspect DW expects a set piece heavy game from the Dubs, hence the 6-2 split, and has two very good kicking options who will hopefully keep play in Leinster's half as much as possible. So if Ross Byrne is kicking from deep then hopefully Titman is running it back with interest.If we can keep them pinned back and force loose kicks our backs can hurt them. However, if Frawley, who I know nothing about can create space for Ringrose we could be in trouble.

If Leinster turn up and man shame the front row, batter Dempsey, expose Shona and make Thompson look like a callow youth playing out of position then the time between tomorrow and the next block matches will not be pleasant for most Glasgow fans. we don't need to win big: we just need to be in the fight for 80 minutes.

Not even going to consider a prediction. censored





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Post by Hazel Sapling Fri 22 Oct 2021, 1:21 pm

If Glasgow can keep close against that line-up, we are in for a very good season. Several players can put a marker down for the Australia and South Africa contests as that Leinster 23 would beat Tonga.

The front fives are going to be an excellent contest. This is a real test for Bhatti to prove that he is in the competition with our top 3 LH's for Scotland rather than a decent fourth option. Leinster have the better front row starting but hopefully Kebble can make hay when he comes on.

Frawley looks to be a tall, lean IC (listed at 6'3, 91kg). Johnson and Tuipulotu need to have some opportunities to smash into the smaller Leinster backline, certainly if we are getting into the 22.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Fri 22 Oct 2021, 4:56 pm

Edinburgh side to face Zebre

Schoeman - McInally - De Bruin (Venter - Cherry - Atalifo)
Hodgson - Phillips (Bradbury)
Ritchie - Mata - Crosbie (Kunavala)

Shiel - Kinghorn (Vellacott - Savala)
Hutchison - Johnstone (Dean)
Hoyland - Immelman - Blain

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Post by Hazel Sapling Fri 22 Oct 2021, 5:03 pm

Good side. Decent front 5 and the backrow on paper should be excellent.

Not sold on Kinghorn to 10 and feel sorry for Chamberlain who looks to be on his way out.


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Post by RDW Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:02 pm

Could get messy for Glasgow - 31-10 down with 20 to go.

Leinster have been absolutely relentless and Glasgow just can't live with it. Worryingly, they look knackered too!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:19 pm

Relentless is definitely the word. How is anyone supposed to beat these feckers, they’re just too good!

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Post by RDW Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:33 pm

Glasgow did well to hold out the rest of the game and even scored at the death, but that was a very comfortable win for Leinster. Can't see them losing very often this season again!

Bit of a rude awakening for some of the Glasgow youngsters and Scotland prospects about what it really takes at the top level. Darge was anonymous and swept away by the Leinster juggernaut. Thompson struggled but barely had the ball. Tuipolotu was a passenger. Horne was pretty terrible off the bench.

McLean was a clear standout though and broke the line every time he touched the ball. Such a classy winger - great prospect!

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Post by demosthenes Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:34 pm

A great game of rugby in many ways. I have seen less intense Test matches. And Glasgow will play worse and win. As for Leinster.. Ulster may give them a game, maybe one of the SA teams, but they are the initial URC champions

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Post by demosthenes Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:36 pm

George Horne just played himself out of the Scotland dodge. Price / Dobie as the 9's for the first game.

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Post by BigGee Fri 22 Oct 2021, 11:23 pm

Just watched when I got home from work,

We were well beaten, not much more you can say, bit of a learning curve and hopefully we will learn our lessons.

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Post by jimbopip Sat 23 Oct 2021, 9:00 am

Well Shocked
Leinster clap clap clap
Glass half empty or half full? Or lying in smithereens on the floor?
They didn't have the bonus point win wrapped up by half time...like we did to the Stormers. They didn't show us up by scoring at will and running up a half century...like they did to the Scarlets. But they beat us like a gong and deserved to win.
I thought our front row did well in the scrum.
Gray did well but BBB is not as physical a second row as Bean nor as dynamic as Cummings.
Back row? We really lost the breakdown battle. I thought Dempsey had a good game in the loose and showed he has a fair bit of fight in him. Batman put his heart and soul into everything but he and Darge got battered at the breakdown. The commentators kept saying (a) Leinster were being allowed to get away with lots of infringements and (b) the speed of recycled ball was very impressive.
Behind the scrum? We've all played in games where the opposition are coming at you in waves and when you do get the ball there's a solid wall of defenders waiting for you. I don't think anyone had a terrible game but Meatball didn't do himself too many favours.

Leinster look a class above anyone we have played so far. I can see why DW has experimented with playing a big lump at 6. We lost the breakdown and everything flowed from that. Flowed like a flash flood down a mountainside at times.

Flounder, I agree with you on Titman...but a thought occured to me; if he has electric pace and makes lots of line breaks, beats lots of defenders then why isn't he scoring more tries?

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Post by RDW Sat 23 Oct 2021, 9:06 am

A good question Jimbo but that's not how rugby works a lot of the time! If a team is being steamrolled then even the best wingers in the world won't make a huge difference. Never mind a team with a defence like Leinster.

I just like how he gets himself out of trouble and creates something from nothing. He just needs his teammates to be more alert to these opportunities and the tries will come.

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Post by BigGee Sat 23 Oct 2021, 9:49 am

I am not quite as despondent as some on the Glasgow warriors forum!

There was some hope in amongst the chaos.

Our scrum and line out were good and matched them really, which is no mean feet against a team as good as that, with their first team out!

Most of their tries came from missed one on one tackles, which again, aught to be fixable.

The won the breakdown hands down though and Darge got a lesson last night, we kept sending one out runners at them, which just never works against a team as good as Leinster.


What was more obvious was that we are not making and taking our own chances. Weir I don't think is ever going to be the FH to unlock a defence as good as that and it was a bit strange to start him over Thompson. It will be interesting to see where we go with our half backs after this break, surely Miotti needs to be given some game time as well and Dobie seems to have been used very sparingly so far.


Anyway, we probably got much what we hoped for from this first block of games, losing to 2 of the best teams in the league and winning our other games, albeit leaving a few BPs out there. I would probably have settled for that before we started.

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Post by TJ Sat 23 Oct 2021, 12:58 pm

Most of their tries came from missed one on one tackles, which again, aught to be fixable.

I thought the defensive position in the centres was very poor with huge gaps and doglegs appearing and Leinster did not make the most of these defensive lapses

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