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England's Summer of Cricket 2021

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TRUSSMAN66
AlciG
Pal Joey
dummy_half
Mind the windows Tino.
sirfredperry
king_carlos
KP_fan
VTR
JDizzle
eirebilly
guildfordbat
Soul Requiem
Good Golly I'm Olly
GSC
alfie
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Duty281
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Post by Duty281 Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

That's the important wicket. Deserved for Robinson and England.

Now into that brittle middle order.

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Post by alfie Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:45 pm

Sam Curran out of the t20 cup... Back injury.

Replaced by brother Tom. Not quite like for like. Will need a new thread for this event soon , I guess.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:53 pm

https://www.606v2.com/t70366-world-t20-discussion-thread

There is already one! Another blow for England, also without Archer and Stokes.

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Post by Pal Joey Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 am

GSC wrote:Don't know how feasible it is, but would it not be sensible to hold the ashes provisionally across 2/3 venues so players are insulated from regional variations in restrictions?

I believe that option remains open, GSC.

It seems as though the Ashes tour will be going ahead. The ECB and some senior players are apparently now satisfied with CA's proposal.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/it-s-on-england-captain-root-commits-to-ashes-20211006-p58xm7.html

If there are problems with entering and leaving WA, then I heard someone (?... I missed their name) say on the radio this morning that Manuka Oval in Canberra may be used instead of the new stadium in Perth. A pity - that's such a great venue but Canberra would be a nice venue too.

Bellerive Oval in Hobart would be another option but they have quite severe travel restrictions similar to Qld, WA and SA at present.
However, this could all change at the drop of a hat... the way they make announcements here. These states might loosen up a bit and relax/waive restrictions for England players and their families in the coming days/weeks, whom I believe deserve special treatment (in a nice way of course) when they arrive on our shores.  

So check the PH levels in the pools, roll out the deck chairs, dust off the umbrellas (and chase the sharks away) for the WAGS, I say. Smile  

We've just had half the NRL season and Grand Final, Rugby Championship and the Indian Women's tour matches (with more to come) played in Queensland so I suspect Annastacia Palaszczuk (Qld Premier) will not want to miss out on this opportunity to showcase the state once again.

The interstate politicking here in Australia is truly awful - unnecessarily cruel on families in particular but it's open doors for sports people/teams and movie stars. It just ain't right!
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Post by alfie Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:32 am

Duty281 wrote:https://www.606v2.com/t70366-world-t20-discussion-thread

There is already one! Another blow for England, also without Archer and Stokes.

Ha ! I thought I had seen one earlier but somehow couldn't find it yesterday...now realised I had been looking through the "view your posts" filter... Doh

Ah well - at least Sam probably isn't too crucial for the t20. Hope he is fit for the Ashes tour as I imagine they will want an oversized squad.

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Post by alfie Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:36 am

And good news as per PJ's story above. If the players are happy with the latest deal it really ought to remove any lingering doubts about touring and assure us of a proper Ashes Series - even if they end up having to relocate the Perth Test to Tasmania...

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Post by king_carlos Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:26 pm

A few reports today suggesting that Root has committed to the tour. That could be the tipping point for getting England out there.

Still suggestions that Buttler won't make the trip though.

Archer and Stone are already ruled out of course.

Stokes situation is uncertain.

1.Burns 2.Hameed 3.Malan 4.Root (c) 5.Pope 6.Bairstow (wk) 7.Woakes 8.Robinson 9.Wood 10.Leach 11.Anderson/Broad

That may be about the best England can field. It doesn't fill me with confidence.

Overton will be one of the reserve seamers. If Surran is unavailable then I'd guess that David Payne (rumoured to be on the radar this summer) or George Garton might find a place in the touring party as a left-arm option.

I hope Matt Parkinson isn't this Ashes "spinner thrown into a losing cause and never seen again" candidate.

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Post by VTR Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:33 pm

Not disputing that team, but it doesn't exactly have Ashes winners written over it! Still, let's be positive and remember England once won an Ashes series with Ravi Bopara batting at 3 for 80% of it

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Post by king_carlos Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:35 pm

VTR wrote:Not disputing that team, but it doesn't exactly have Ashes winners written over it! Still, let's be positive and remember England once won an Ashes series with Ravi Bopara batting at 3 for 80% of it

Sadly, I think Cummins in particular will eat them alive.

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Post by alfie Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:39 am

Not counting chickens yet but it seems all clear for the tour and that pretty well everyone will be on board for it - though I see Stokes is ruled out as he is having another operation on his hand injury.(Hadn't expected him to tour anyway after being out of action for months : though it is a huge pity that such an iconic player should miss both the Ashes tours that have coincided with his peak years!)

Australia will of course start huge favourites as they are always very tough to beat at home and England are still essentially rebuilding. But I do not think we should automatically assume it is all over in advance : as we saw last year against India , this Australian team is heavily reliant on a couple of batsmen and their main strike bowlers...and those bowlers were unable to get through the full programme last year without running out of petrol. It will be interesting to see if a policy of rotation is adopted this year in view of the condensed Test schedule. Either way , I don't think they are unbeatable.

Whatever the results , I am glad to see the series going ahead.

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Post by dummy_half Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:53 am

alfie wrote:Not counting chickens yet but it seems all clear for the tour and that pretty well everyone will be on board for it - though I see Stokes is ruled out as he is having another operation on his hand injury.(Hadn't expected him to tour anyway after being out of action for months : though it is a huge pity that such an iconic player should miss both the Ashes tours that have coincided with his peak years!)

Australia will of course start huge favourites as they are always very tough to beat at home and England are still essentially rebuilding. But I do not think we should automatically assume it is all over in advance : as we saw last year against India , this Australian team is heavily reliant on a couple of batsmen and their main strike bowlers...and those bowlers were unable to get through the full programme last year without running out of petrol. It will be interesting to see if a policy of rotation is adopted this year in view of the condensed Test schedule. Either way , I don't think they are unbeatable.

Whatever the results , I am glad to see the series going ahead.

Not the same strength in depth that Aus used to have for certain - think about how good the players who didn't get in the team when they had McGrath, Warne, Gillespie and Lee as their first choice bowling line up. McGill and Kasprowicz for two would have walked into any other test team of the time. First choice seam attack is definitely very good though*

* Perhaps we need to litter the outfield with balls so they all crock themselves int he warm up in the manner of McGrath at Edgebaston 2005?

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Post by sirfredperry Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:48 pm

ECB chairman Ian Watmore has resigned. Did he jump or was he pushed?

Was he unhappy at the direction the ECB was taking? May be he wasn't totally on board with The Hundred.

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Post by JDizzle Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:21 pm

sirfredperry wrote:ECB chairman Ian Watmore has resigned. Did he jump or was he pushed?

Was he unhappy at the direction the ECB was taking? May be he wasn't totally on board with The Hundred.

He was pushed out of the plane with no parachute and no warning if Athers scathing piece in the Times is to be believed. Sounds like he has done about the worse job imaginable.

The Pakistan series cancellation was the final straw, but apparently the meeting of the counties to discuss the CC structure was a fiasco too according to Atherton. Seems like the bloke was, to be polite, inept.


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Post by king_carlos Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:06 pm

alfie wrote:Not counting chickens yet but it seems all clear for the tour and that pretty well everyone will be on board for it - though I see Stokes is ruled out as he is having another operation on his hand injury.(Hadn't expected him to tour anyway after being out of action for months : though it is a huge pity that such an iconic player should miss both the Ashes tours that have coincided with his peak years!)

Australia will of course start huge favourites as they are always very tough to beat at home and England are still essentially rebuilding. But I do not think we should automatically assume it is all over in advance : as we saw last year against India , this Australian team is heavily reliant on a couple of batsmen and their main strike bowlers...and those bowlers were unable to get through the full programme last year without running out of petrol. It will be interesting to see if a policy of rotation is adopted this year in view of the condensed Test schedule. Either way , I don't think they are unbeatable.

Whatever the results , I am glad to see the series going ahead.

I certainly think that Australia are vulnerable at the moment. 2 brilliant batsman, then some uncertainty. Warner who's been out of form for a long time. Harris hasn't convinced. Wade is up and down. Whilst I think Green looks very talented he does currently have technical issues to iron out (in his case planting his front leg hence an LBW candidate) as many young players do.

I just don't think England will have the bowling in those conditions to punish those weak links in the batting. England's batting is fragile as ever too.

Unless we take a gigantic punt on someone like Garton then Wood will be the only pace bowler, he won't play 5 Tests.

Robinson had an excellent debut summer but was noticeably tiring by T4 against India in home conditions, I suspect he will need rotating in Australia's heat.

Woakes has kept improving to the point where away from home I think he can be a useful option. With the Kookaburra in Australia that's as a 'role' bowler rather than a strike or opening bowler. He's someone to perform that Bresnan in '10/11 role where he comes on as a change bowler and keeps things very tight, then looks to get some movement off the pitch as cracks open.

As I've said before, I view Overton as an out and out swing bowler. When allowed to bowl those full lengths with conducive conditions and the Dukes ball he can be devastating. Despite his height I'm skeptical there's anything there outside that to threaten Test batsman. I know JD has seen much more of Overton and disagrees with me. Hopefully Overton will prove me wrong and JD right as the lack of options means he's very likely to play at some point!

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Post by king_carlos Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:24 pm

BBC wrote:England central contracts: Moeen Ali, James Anderson, Jofra Archer, Jonny Bairstow, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Jack Leach, Dawid Malan, Eoin Morgan, Ollie Pope, Adil Rashid, Ollie Robinson, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood.

Increment contracts: Dom Bess, Tom Curran, Chris Jordan, Liam Livingstone.

Pace bowling development contracts: Saqib Mahmood, Craig Overton, Olly Stone.

Central contracts announced. Not many surprises really.

Malan, Robinson and Leach in.

Sibley out but Crawley retains his despite also being dropped. Crawley does have an impressive T20 record in his short career thus far so could perhaps be viewed as a white ball option too but there's so much depth there I have to think they view him as a player capable of returning to Test cricket after working on his game.

Mo gets a central contract despite his Test retirement. Still very much part of white ball plans then I'd presume.

Bess getting an increment deal and Leach a central contract suggests England will stick with them as their spin options with Mo retiring. No place for Parkinson.

I'm a bit surprised that Garton hasn't picked up a 'pace bowling development contract'.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:48 pm

king_carlos wrote:
alfie wrote:Not counting chickens yet but it seems all clear for the tour and that pretty well everyone will be on board for it - though I see Stokes is ruled out as he is having another operation on his hand injury.(Hadn't expected him to tour anyway after being out of action for months : though it is a huge pity that such an iconic player should miss both the Ashes tours that have coincided with his peak years!)

Australia will of course start huge favourites as they are always very tough to beat at home and England are still essentially rebuilding. But I do not think we should automatically assume it is all over in advance : as we saw last year against India , this Australian team is heavily reliant on a couple of batsmen and their main strike bowlers...and those bowlers were unable to get through the full programme last year without running out of petrol. It will be interesting to see if a policy of rotation is adopted this year in view of the condensed Test schedule. Either way , I don't think they are unbeatable.

Whatever the results , I am glad to see the series going ahead.

I certainly think that Australia are vulnerable at the moment. 2 brilliant batsman, then some uncertainty. Warner who's been out of form for a long time. Harris hasn't convinced. Wade is up and down. Whilst I think Green looks very talented he does currently have technical issues to iron out (in his case planting his front leg hence an LBW candidate) as many young players do.

I just don't think England will have the bowling in those conditions to punish those weak links in the batting. England's batting is fragile as ever too.

Unless we take a gigantic punt on someone like Garton then Wood will be the only pace bowler, he won't play 5 Tests.

Robinson had an excellent debut summer but was noticeably tiring by T4 against India in home conditions, I suspect he will need rotating in Australia's heat.

Woakes has kept improving to the point where away from home I think he can be a useful option. With the Kookaburra in Australia that's as a 'role' bowler rather than a strike or opening bowler. He's someone to perform that Bresnan in '10/11 role where he comes on as a change bowler and keeps things very tight, then looks to get some movement off the pitch as cracks open.

As I've said before, I view Overton as an out and out swing bowler. When allowed to bowl those full lengths with conducive conditions and the Dukes ball he can be devastating. Despite his height I'm skeptical there's anything there outside that to threaten Test batsman. I know JD has seen much more of Overton and disagrees with me. Hopefully Overton will prove me wrong and JD right as the lack of options means he's very likely to play at some point!

Woakes has to tour due to the lack of other options but Bresnan was effective out there because he bowled back of a length and bowled that ubiquitous and delightfully named "heavy" ball which was/is far more suited to Aussie pitches. I don't see Woakes being anywhere near as effective in the same holding role. Although his batting will come in handy when the inevitable England collapse(s) happen(s). Bresnan also had the benefit of a truly world class spinner in the side and the best top 7 in recent memory, if not ever.

England have one player who would get into that 10/11 side (aside from Jimmy who was already there) in Root (for Collingwood) but other than that, of the players available to tour, there isn't anyone else that would. Australia have at least 2 batters and easily 3 bowlers (Starc for Johnson could make it 4) who would walk into it.

England overseas are nowhere near the force India are and I can't see the comparison. India have a plethora of great batters and bowlers. We certainly don't at the moment.

Without going too McGrath, too early, I can't see England winning a test match this tour. This is, sadly, as close to a foregone conclusion for an Ashes series since the 90's.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by JDizzle Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:47 am

Ashes Squad announced at midday today, so what are we expecting?

James Anderson, Jonny Bairstow, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Jack Leach, Dawid Malan, Ollie Pope, Ollie Robinson, Joe Root, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood.

Those 14 should be locks based on the Central Contracts. With Buttler being replaced by Foakes if he doesn’t elect to tour. Presumably Saqib is next in line if Curran isn’t fit - but not sure if he is even fit! Carse would be the other bold choice.

Then probably 2 more batters, a spinner and a seamer? Seamer will be COverton and the spinner Bess you would presume. And Hameed will be one of the batters too. Then take your pick I guess! Probably not Sibley, but could be Bracey (emergency third choice keeper - or that is Pope)?

It’ll be a shame for the heritage of English leggies if Parkinson doesn’t go to play his only ever Test in the final game.

It’s going to be 5-0. Unless there is a mega road somewhere or England can sneak a win kicking into the better conditions in the DN game and actually taking advantage.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:03 pm

JDizzle wrote:Ashes Squad announced at midday today, so what are we expecting?

James Anderson, Jonny Bairstow, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Jack Leach, Dawid Malan, Ollie Pope, Ollie Robinson, Joe Root, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood.

Those 14 should be locks based on the Central Contracts. With Buttler being replaced by Foakes if he doesn’t elect to tour. Presumably Saqib is next in line if Curran isn’t fit - but not sure if he is even fit! Carse would be the other bold choice.

Then probably 2 more batters, a spinner and a seamer? Seamer will be COverton and the spinner Bess you would presume. And Hameed will be one of the batters too. Then take your pick I guess! Probably not Sibley, but could be Bracey (emergency third choice keeper - or that is Pope)?

It’ll be a shame for the heritage of English leggies if Parkinson doesn’t go to play his only ever Test in the final game.

It’s going to be 5-0. Unless there is a mega road somewhere or England can sneak a win kicking into the better conditions in the DN game and actually taking advantage.

Dan Lawrence as the spare batter! Obviously.

Joe Root (Yorkshire) Captain
James Anderson (Lancashire)
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Dom Bess (Yorkshire)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Haseeb Hameed (Nottinghamshire)
Dan Lawrence (Essex)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Dawid Malan (Yorkshire)
Craig Overton (Somerset)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Ollie Robinson (Sussex)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
Mark Wood (Durham)

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Post by Duty281 Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:13 pm

That's the strongest squad available, isn't it? Any absentees are due to injury or Stokes' break or just not being considered good enough. Starting to think we'll never see Stokes play for England again, which would be desperately sad.

Would agree with the general pessimism and I'm expecting (as last time) a big Australian win in this series. England just don't do well in Australia - even the series they won in 2010/11, between the strongest England team of my lifetime and the weakest Aussie one, was close until the first morning of the fourth test.

Will be interesting to see how England manage their seamers during this series and, in particular, how many tests Wood plays as the lone 90mph+ bowler.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:20 pm

I'm unsure as to the position concerning Sam Curran.

Seems odd to give him a central contract last week and then not pick him even with a *subject to fitness.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:22 pm

Duty281 wrote:That's the strongest squad available, isn't it? Any absentees are due to injury or Stokes' break or just not being considered good enough. Starting to think we'll never see Stokes play for England again, which would be desperately sad.

Would agree with the general pessimism and I'm expecting (as last time) a big Australian win in this series. England just don't do well in Australia - even the series they won in 2010/11, between the strongest England team of my lifetime and the weakest Aussie one, was close until the first morning of the fourth test.

Will be interesting to see how England manage their seamers during this series and, in particular, how many tests Wood plays as the lone 90mph+ bowler.

I think so. I’m sure people can quibble over the back up batter (Sibley) or the back up spinner (Parkinson), but that’s not going to change the series!

Basically England have no chance unless Root goes Cook 10/11, a couple of others chip in with hundreds and they find a way to keep the sum of Smith and Labuschagne’s average below 100 whilst dominating everyone else. Seems a long shot.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:24 pm

guildfordbat wrote:I'm unsure as to the position concerning Sam Curran.

Seems odd to give him a central contract last week and then not pick him even with a *subject to fitness.

Not seen it from the ECB, but the journos are reporting he has a stress fracture of the back so is out. I think he’d have been the 18th man and they’ve just gone without a replacement.

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Post by king_carlos Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:52 pm

Buttler touring is a boost but the issues remain a fragile batting lineup and bowling not suited to the conditions.

India showed that this Aussie batting lineup have problems as well and you don't exclusively need pace to take the wickets. The Indian batting lineup, even shorn of Kohli, is incomparably stronger than England's though.

I also suspect that Australia won't try to bowl Cummins, Hazlewood and Starc into early retirement again having learned the lesson from the India series. Surely Pattinson, Abbott or Neser (particularly in the D/N Test) will be used to rotate their seamers.

Worth noting that Starc was dealing with his father's terminal illness during the India series when he was below his best. His father passed away in February soon after the series ended. It would not surprise me at all to see a Starc far closer to his peak this winter having had some time off to recharge mentally and physically.

It's such a shame that Archer isn't available. It would have been great to see Jof in Aussie conditions renewing his battle with Smith.

Root is yet to score a century in Australia. England will desperately need that to change.

On the upside for England the D/N Test might suit their bowlers and Australia won't have played a Test in nearly a year so could be under cooked for T1. Trying to steal an early win then challenge with the pink ball is perhaps a chink of light.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:51 pm

JDizzle wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Ashes Squad announced at midday today, so what are we expecting?

James Anderson, Jonny Bairstow, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler, Zak Crawley, Sam Curran, Jack Leach, Dawid Malan, Ollie Pope, Ollie Robinson, Joe Root, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood.

Those 14 should be locks based on the Central Contracts. With Buttler being replaced by Foakes if he doesn’t elect to tour. Presumably Saqib is next in line if Curran isn’t fit - but not sure if he is even fit! Carse would be the other bold choice.

Then probably 2 more batters, a spinner and a seamer? Seamer will be COverton and the spinner Bess you would presume. And Hameed will be one of the batters too. Then take your pick I guess! Probably not Sibley, but could be Bracey (emergency third choice keeper - or that is Pope)?

It’ll be a shame for the heritage of English leggies if Parkinson doesn’t go to play his only ever Test in the final game.

It’s going to be 5-0. Unless there is a mega road somewhere or England can sneak a win kicking into the better conditions in the DN game and actually taking advantage.

Dan Lawrence as the spare batter! Obviously.

Joe Root (Yorkshire) Captain
James Anderson (Lancashire)
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Dom Bess (Yorkshire)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Haseeb Hameed (Nottinghamshire)
Dan Lawrence (Essex)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Dawid Malan (Yorkshire)
Craig Overton (Somerset)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Ollie Robinson (Sussex)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
Mark Wood (Durham)




Trying to make an eleven from that 17. Hmmm. With Stokes, Sam Curran and Moeen all missing and however I cut it it, I always seem a batsman or bowler light.

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Post by king_carlos Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:41 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Trying to make an eleven from that 17. Hmmm. With Stokes, Sam Curran and Moeen all missing and however I cut it it, I always seem a batsman or bowler light.

Hi Guildford, I'd guess that England will stick with their formula and take 5 bowling options with Woakes batting 7. They just don't seem that comfortable with only 4 bowlers unless they're certain it's a low scoring track.

With Wood having so many injury issues, Broad coming back from injuries and Anderson seeing a drop off in his 2nd innings success it would be bold to go in with 2 of those 3 making up a 4 man attack in Australian conditions.

1.Burns
2.Hameed
3.Malan
4.Root
5.Pope
6.Buttler (wk)
7.Woakes
8.Robinson
9.Leach
10.Wood
11.Anderson/Broad

That's the side I posted before the squad announcement but with Buttler instead of Bairstow at 6 and keeping - rumours were that Buttler might not tour. It's still my prediction.

For once the batting concerns me less than the bowling. Not because the batting is strong (it isn't) but at least guys like Malan and Pope are stronger against seam bowling and like pace on so they are somewhat suited to conditions. Whereas the seam attack just isn't suited to the Kookaburra ball and Australian conditions at all.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:41 pm

Olly will hate it, and I kind of hate it too, but in my post about Moeen retiring I wondered whether it would mean England give Leach a run to prove himself as the guy. But… Australia is a graveyard for finger spinners (unless you are Nathan Lyon!) - Swann averaged 40 in 10/11 and England won that series and he is in the argument as our greatest spinner!

So I do wonder whether they try and muddle through with Lawrence and Root.

Burns, Hameed, Malan, Root, Pope/Bairstow, Lawrence, Buttler then four from Woakes, Overton, Anderson, Broad, Wood.

I don’t like it but like Guildford says, I don’t think there is a line up that I do.

Lawrence did get a 100 vs Aus A out in Aus previously. But so did Dom Sibley!

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:15 pm

king_carlos wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Trying to make an eleven from that 17. Hmmm. With Stokes, Sam Curran and Moeen all missing and however I cut it it, I always seem a batsman or bowler light.

Hi Guildford, I'd guess that England will stick with their formula and take 5 bowling options with Woakes batting 7. They just don't seem that comfortable with only 4 bowlers unless they're certain it's a low scoring track.

With Wood having so many injury issues, Broad coming back from injuries and Anderson seeing a drop off in his 2nd innings success it would be bold to go in with 2 of those 3 making up a 4 man attack in Australian conditions.

1.Burns
2.Hameed
3.Malan
4.Root
5.Pope
6.Buttler (wk)
7.Woakes
8.Robinson
9.Leach
10.Wood
11.Anderson/Broad

That's the side I posted before the squad announcement but with Buttler instead of Bairstow at 6 and keeping - rumours were that Buttler might not tour. It's still my prediction.

For once the batting concerns me less than the bowling. Not because the batting is strong (it isn't) but at least guys like Malan and Pope are stronger against seam bowling and like pace on so they are somewhat suited to conditions. Whereas the seam attack just isn't suited to the Kookaburra ball and Australian conditions at all.

Cheers, Carlos.

Yeah, that's the eleven I was coming round to. Emphasising what we both already know, it puts significant responsibility upon Woakes and Robinson at 7 and 8 respectively. Especially Woakes throughout the entire series. It's hard to visualise any of the other bowlers being capable of the number 7 role in even one Test.

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Post by king_carlos Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:16 pm

I think Sibley is better suited to Australian conditions than English in many ways. The Dukes swings so late into the innings now that 'blunting the new ball' isn't as valuable a skill in home Tests. Starting an innings is always tough.

The Kookaburra will stop moving though so there is then more value in a player such as Sibley facing a lot of deliveries and forcing the Aussie seamers to bowl long spells in the heat.

Look at Pujara's value in the Australia vs India series. Then again Pujara is a far superior batsman to Sibley so not really a direct comparison.

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Post by alfie Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:29 am

So after all the fussing about conditions and whether players would consent to travel it seems everyone is now happy to join the party and a "full" England team will turn out for the Ashes. Can't say I'm surprised : was a bit of "bargaining" going on. Hopefully they are all genuinely comfortable with the decision as the last thing you need touring Australia is any players still nursing doubts.

As to the squad : seems logical enough to me. (Remember the Lions squad will also be around if any replacements are needed. Suppose still just possible- though unlikely - that a fit again Ben Stokes could be added to that group after his "four weeks of intensive rehab" . As I say , not very likely , so I think this is as good as it gets)

See a lot of concern around the bowling. Regrettable that the pool of full-on pace merchants is so injury depleted ; but to be honest I was not all that confident that loading up with pure pace was going to be a magic bullet anyway. After all , while Archer had an excellent debut series against Australia , his subsequent 9 Tests have yielded 20 wickets at about 43 ; and Stone remains largely unproven. If the bowlers they have are managed properly (can't expect them , especially the older ones , to play five matches in a row) and selected for the appropriate conditions , they may do better than feared. The key in Australia is usually putting serious runs on the board yourself , in order to avoid being buried when the home team goes big , and cash in on the rare occasion when you get them out cheaply.

Which brings me to the real problem I see for England. A batting group in which only one player averages over 35 , and only three have any prior experience of batting in Australia. (OK , four with Lawrence having had a Lions tour ) Unfortunately that is the reality of the current resources available so we have to hope one or two players pick the right time to blossom , and Root at last manages to bring his best form to this country. It is perhaps all rather "hopeful" ; which is why I am not exactly confident , even though I think this Australian team has weaknesses which could be exposed , even by this less than stellar England outfit.

Like guildford , I have a problem trying to pick an eleven that isn't either light on for bowling or dangerously short in batting. I would perhaps lean towards starting the series with a long batting line-up and hoping four bowlers plus Root/Malan could do a job ; with the intention of juggling the bowlers and adjusting the team for conditions as the series progresses - but must admit this is also less than ideal , and somewhat hostage to pitch and weather , so not something that I see as set in stone.

Anyway at least the series is on...and it can hardly go any worse for the tourists than the last couple of Ashes in Australia Smile

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Post by alfie Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:02 am

I see KC has raised the issue of Sibley and his potential suitability for Australian conditions : something we are not going to see tested in view of his omission from both Test squad and contract list. It does seem management have (rightly or harshly ?) either closed his file or decided to send him back to the CC for a season. At 26 , he could come again.

Not sure he would have prospered. I could see him being worked over with short balls and close leg side catchers ; but certainly his taste for grinding it out over a long innings once he did get in might have been handy on some Australian pitches. Have to say I am by no means sure that Burns and Hameed will find the going by any means easy either ! (Which raises the other issue : if one or other don't fire , who is the back up opener ? Crawley , I suppose...which doesn't fill me with confidence given his recent form !

Opening batting in Australia has been key in most of the England sides that have prospered in Australia over the years. Think Strauss and Cook 2010/11, Boycott and Luckhurst (and Edrich) 1970/71: but then again I guess no one would have predicted in advance that Broad and Athey (1986/87 ) would succeed so well as they did so let us hope that the current pair can produce the goods...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:21 am

JDizzle wrote:Olly will hate it, and I kind of hate it too, but in my post about Moeen retiring I wondered whether it would mean England give Leach a run to prove himself as the guy. But… Australia is a graveyard for finger spinners (unless you are Nathan Lyon!) - Swann averaged 40 in 10/11 and England won that series and he is in the argument as our greatest spinner!

So I do wonder whether they try and muddle through with Lawrence and Root.

Burns, Hameed, Malan, Root, Pope/Bairstow, Lawrence, Buttler then four from Woakes, Overton, Anderson, Broad, Wood.

I don’t like it but like Guildford says, I don’t think there is a line up that I do.

Lawrence did get a 100 vs Aus A out in Aus previously. But so did Dom Sibley!

The tour hasn't even started and I'm tired of watching 82mph seamers bowl to Marnus Labuschagne on 143* as Australia pass 350 for the loss of 2 wickets in my mind already.

I see Silverwood after two years of parroting on about needing fast bowlers in Australia, and how everything is building for that...has pivoted to "line and length will get it done!". Can we hurry up and lose 5-0 so he gets the chop and we can get someone in who isn't a relic and can actually develop players?

I'm not sure how Sibley has gone from playing two tests ago and being quoted as part of the future, to suddenly just totally out of the picture altogether. I'm not saying we're leaving out Cook here, but has he really been that much worse than the others? Like KC, I fancy he'd have done alright in Aus (even if just blunting the new ball), and yet suddenly he's not even the reserve. I like Hameed, but there's a reason he's 24 and his fingers are all pointing in different directions...we saw it a bit this summer, he plays with low hands and struggles with the rising ball. I'd be fairly shocked if he does much personally in Aus.

Not even the courtesy to throw in a Mahmood/Parkinson so I can hitch a bandwagon (RIP Crane train) to some hope we may have a deadly quick or flashy leggie to bring into the team in the 3rd test match to save us either. Paine's already being such a massive bell I've had to be on the side of the bloody Barmy Army ffs.

Just pray someone gets the rights so we don't have to put up with Channel 7's horrendous comms at 2am on a cold December's night
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Post by king_carlos Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:47 pm

alfie wrote:So after all the fussing about conditions and whether players would consent to travel it seems everyone is now happy to join the party and a "full" England team will turn out for the Ashes. Can't say I'm surprised : was a bit of "bargaining" going on. Hopefully they are all genuinely comfortable with the decision as the last thing you need touring Australia is any players still nursing doubts.

With restrictions still in place I'd be surprised if there aren't players still nursing doubts to be honest. With the different states having different protocols it's not even certain where the Tests will be played yet.

The tour going ahead doesn't sit too easily with me at present to be honest. Australia haven't played an away Test in over 2 years but it feels like this series is going ahead because CA would be up a creek without a paddle if they lost the $200m the Ashes is estimated to be worth to them.

This coming hot on the heels of cancelling the Pakistan tour leaving a bad taste in my mouth makes this a tour I really don't feel much excitement to follow. Which is a first for Test cricket in a long long time.

Ah well. At least Michael Vaughan will probably be on the Australian TV commentary as well as TMS just to add a final condiment to our s*** sandwich.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Olly will hate it, and I kind of hate it too, but in my post about Moeen retiring I wondered whether it would mean England give Leach a run to prove himself as the guy. But… Australia is a graveyard for finger spinners (unless you are Nathan Lyon!) - Swann averaged 40 in 10/11 and England won that series and he is in the argument as our greatest spinner!

So I do wonder whether they try and muddle through with Lawrence and Root.

Burns, Hameed, Malan, Root, Pope/Bairstow, Lawrence, Buttler then four from Woakes, Overton, Anderson, Broad, Wood.

I don’t like it but like Guildford says, I don’t think there is a line up that I do.

Lawrence did get a 100 vs Aus A out in Aus previously. But so did Dom Sibley!

The tour hasn't even started and I'm tired of watching 82mph seamers bowl to Marnus Labuschagne on 143* as Australia pass 350 for the loss of 2 wickets in my mind already.

I see Silverwood after two years of parroting on about needing fast bowlers in Australia, and how everything is building for that...has pivoted to "line and length will get it done!". Can we hurry up and lose 5-0 so he gets the chop and we can get someone in who isn't a relic and can actually develop players?

I'm not sure how Sibley has gone from playing two tests ago and being quoted as part of the future, to suddenly just totally out of the picture altogether. I'm not saying we're leaving out Cook here, but has he really been that much worse than the others? Like KC, I fancy he'd have done alright in Aus (even if just blunting the new ball), and yet suddenly he's not even the reserve. I like Hameed, but there's a reason he's 24 and his fingers are all pointing in different directions...we saw it a bit this summer, he plays with low hands and struggles with the rising ball. I'd be fairly shocked if he does much personally in Aus.

Not even the courtesy to throw in a Mahmood/Parkinson so I can hitch a bandwagon (RIP Crane train) to some hope we may have a deadly quick or flashy leggie to bring into the team in the 3rd test match to save us either. Paine's already being such a massive bell I've had to be on the side of the bloody Barmy Army ffs.

Just pray someone gets the rights so we don't have to put up with Channel 7's horrendous comms at 2am on a cold December's night

Olly - so all's good then, mate?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:01 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Olly will hate it, and I kind of hate it too, but in my post about Moeen retiring I wondered whether it would mean England give Leach a run to prove himself as the guy. But… Australia is a graveyard for finger spinners (unless you are Nathan Lyon!) - Swann averaged 40 in 10/11 and England won that series and he is in the argument as our greatest spinner!

So I do wonder whether they try and muddle through with Lawrence and Root.

Burns, Hameed, Malan, Root, Pope/Bairstow, Lawrence, Buttler then four from Woakes, Overton, Anderson, Broad, Wood.

I don’t like it but like Guildford says, I don’t think there is a line up that I do.

Lawrence did get a 100 vs Aus A out in Aus previously. But so did Dom Sibley!

The tour hasn't even started and I'm tired of watching 82mph seamers bowl to Marnus Labuschagne on 143* as Australia pass 350 for the loss of 2 wickets in my mind already.

I see Silverwood after two years of parroting on about needing fast bowlers in Australia, and how everything is building for that...has pivoted to "line and length will get it done!". Can we hurry up and lose 5-0 so he gets the chop and we can get someone in who isn't a relic and can actually develop players?

I'm not sure how Sibley has gone from playing two tests ago and being quoted as part of the future, to suddenly just totally out of the picture altogether. I'm not saying we're leaving out Cook here, but has he really been that much worse than the others? Like KC, I fancy he'd have done alright in Aus (even if just blunting the new ball), and yet suddenly he's not even the reserve. I like Hameed, but there's a reason he's 24 and his fingers are all pointing in different directions...we saw it a bit this summer, he plays with low hands and struggles with the rising ball. I'd be fairly shocked if he does much personally in Aus.

Not even the courtesy to throw in a Mahmood/Parkinson so I can hitch a bandwagon (RIP Crane train) to some hope we may have a deadly quick or flashy leggie to bring into the team in the 3rd test match to save us either. Paine's already being such a massive bell I've had to be on the side of the bloody Barmy Army ffs.

Just pray someone gets the rights so we don't have to put up with Channel 7's horrendous comms at 2am on a cold December's night

Olly - so all's good then, mate?

Very Happy

I am excited for Pope and Root’s stand of 250 in the 2nd test in the first innings which gives us hope Smile
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Post by JDizzle Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:49 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Just pray someone gets the rights so we don't have to put up with Channel 7's horrendous comms at 2am on a cold December's night

At the risk of making things worse, I have some bad news…

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:55 pm

JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Just pray someone gets the rights so we don't have to put up with Channel 7's horrendous comms at 2am on a cold December's night

At the risk of making things worse, I have some bad news…

Just when you think things can’t get worse Sad
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Post by alfie Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:05 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Just pray someone gets the rights so we don't have to put up with Channel 7's horrendous comms at 2am on a cold December's night

At the risk of making things worse, I have some bad news…

Just when you think things can’t get worse Sad

Ah well ... Always got the "mute" button...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:46 am

I hate to be that guy...but the summer of 2021 is over, and we're nearly at the end of this thread so see a new one for the winter/ashes below...

https://www.606v2.com/t70414-ashes-2021-22-and-other-cricket-through-the-winter-of-2021-thread#4003866
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