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Rules questions

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Post by JAS Mon 04 Oct 2021, 11:57 am

This happened at the weekend, bit of a healthy breeze blowing and on a 220 yard par 3 directly into the wind I've ballooned one high and right into ankle/knee high rough. Didn't fancy my chances so hit a provi. That was knifed low and thin and ended up just short of the green but rolled back down the sloped apron, had a constant visual on it. At about halfway from the tee I saw a crow land by my ball and started to nudge it, toward a bunker which did not impress me much so I started to run at with with some verbals, the crow then flew off. Now I'm nearly at the provi which is obviously nearer the hole than the original then all of a sudden down swoops a seagull, picks up the ball and made off with it, I must have been about 10-12 feet away. Now I'm in a right flap, what now? Luckily after about a minute we found the original, almost got up and down but settled for a bogey but the incident prompted a lot of questions.

1. What if that ball had been my original, would it have been a back to the tee?
2. If the seagull hadn't swiped it would I have been able to place it back in it's original position of rest before the crow played with it?
3. Would I have been able to play the provisional onto the green and mark it while I looked for the original?

JAS

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Post by ralphjohn69 Mon 04 Oct 2021, 2:24 pm

JAS wrote:This happened at the weekend, bit of a healthy breeze blowing and on a 220 yard par 3 directly into the wind I've ballooned one high and right into ankle/knee high rough. Didn't fancy my chances so hit a provi. That was knifed low and thin and ended up just short of the green but rolled back down the sloped apron, had a constant visual on it. At about halfway from the tee I saw a crow land by my ball and started to nudge it, toward a bunker which did not impress me much so I started to run at with with some verbals, the crow then flew off. Now I'm nearly at the provi which is obviously nearer the hole than the original then all of a sudden down swoops a seagull, picks up the ball and made off with it, I must have been about 10-12 feet away. Now I'm in a right flap, what now? Luckily after about a minute we found the original, almost got up and down but settled for a bogey but the incident prompted a lot of questions.

1. What if that ball had been my original, would it have been a back to the tee? - no, as you've seen an outside agency move your ball then drop as close to where it was as you can and play from there
2. If the seagull hadn't swiped it would I have been able to place it back in it's original position of rest before the crow played with it? - yes, you've seen an outside agency move your ball after it's been at rest so you'd move it back to a position as close as possible to where it originally came to rest
3. Would I have been able to play the provisional onto the green and mark it while I looked for the original? - only if it was further away from the hole than your original ball

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Post by McLaren Mon 04 Oct 2021, 4:06 pm

Easy.

It's an outside agency. Replace ball in original position.

And a provisional is provisional until it is played from a spot nearer the hole than your "lost" ball.


Jas, these are the basics. I assume you have not always used the provisional ball rule properly if you are only now asking about it?
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Post by JAS Mon 04 Oct 2021, 5:48 pm

McLaren wrote:Easy.

It's an outside agency. Replace ball in original position.

And a provisional is provisional until it is played from a spot nearer the hole than your "lost" ball.


Jas, these are the basics. I assume you have not always used the provisional ball rule properly if you are only now asking about it?

What? Yes Mac a bird flying off with a ball is a regular occurrence. Can’t believe I haven’t thought of it before.
I’m well aware of the rule that when you take a prov if it hasn’t gone as far as your original you can continue to play it until you reach the point where you “think” your original may be. As it turned out the provi was nearer the hole but before the original was found there was no way of saying that for certain, that would have been a judgement call and it was surprisingly close as the pin was on back right and the provi although at one point near front left it rolled back down quite a slope and further left before the crow took an interest, the original was short right. I guess the problem would have come if I thought the original was closer and my playing partners disagreed. Playing the prov onto the green “could” have given me an idea of various breaks especially around the pin. Anyway that wasn’t the case.

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Post by dynamark Mon 04 Oct 2021, 5:55 pm

Wheres George when we need him ?
Jas you could always try moving to an inland course .We used to get the Canadian Geese who left an almighty mess but the swans seemed to put them of the area

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Post by JAS Mon 04 Oct 2021, 6:01 pm

It was an away open Dyna. I couldn’t play in that every week

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Post by George1507 Fri 26 Nov 2021, 10:45 am

ralphjohn69 wrote:
JAS wrote:This happened at the weekend, bit of a healthy breeze blowing and on a 220 yard par 3 directly into the wind I've ballooned one high and right into ankle/knee high rough. Didn't fancy my chances so hit a provi. That was knifed low and thin and ended up just short of the green but rolled back down the sloped apron, had a constant visual on it. At about halfway from the tee I saw a crow land by my ball and started to nudge it, toward a bunker which did not impress me much so I started to run at with with some verbals, the crow then flew off. Now I'm nearly at the provi which is obviously nearer the hole than the original then all of a sudden down swoops a seagull, picks up the ball and made off with it, I must have been about 10-12 feet away. Now I'm in a right flap, what now? Luckily after about a minute we found the original, almost got up and down but settled for a bogey but the incident prompted a lot of questions.

1. What if that ball had been my original, would it have been a back to the tee? - no, as you've seen an outside agency move your ball then drop as close to where it was as you can and play from there
2. If the seagull hadn't swiped it would I have been able to place it back in it's original position of rest before the crow played with it? - yes, you've seen an outside agency move your ball after it's been at rest so you'd move it back to a position as close as possible to where it originally came to rest
3. Would I have been able to play the provisional onto the green and mark it while I looked for the original? - only if it was further away from the hole than your original ball

That's almost right.

Assuming that you hadn't found the original, then the provisional would have been the ball in play. You saw the bird (an outside influence) move it, so you are entitled to PLACE it where you thought the ball was. If you didn't know for sure where it was, then ask your partners for their opinions. It's rule 9.6.

And the provisional ball thing is pretty well known. You can keep hitting the provisional until you get to where you think the original ball might reasonably be. If the original hit a tree and went 40 yards back (but nobody saw it), so the provisional is closer, you won't be penalised.


Last edited by George1507 on Fri 26 Nov 2021, 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by McLaren Fri 26 Nov 2021, 2:28 pm

Is the thing that is confusing some people about the provisional rule that they are not distinguishing betweening hitting past the original (with the provisional) and playing the provisional from a point past the original?

You can hit your provisional past where the original went but not play it from beyond it.

Good example might be that you catch a drive really well but it sails into trouble. Your provisional is then scuffed up the middle but short of a good hit. You can play the second shot with the provisional (which hopefully goes past your original) and then go look for your original.
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Post by George1507 Fri 26 Nov 2021, 3:15 pm

Maybe. Lots of people worry about transgressing in competitions. I don't know if it's because they might be playing with people they don't really know, who might be rules sticklers, or it might be they know so little about the rules that they assume practically everything they do is likely to be in breach.

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