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Fury - Wilder III - will include spoilers

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Post by Jeff Navarro Sat 09 Oct 2021, 12:23 am

Fury weighs in a career heavy 277lbs - slightly misleading as he didn’t bother stripping down.
Wilder also at a career high 238lbs

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Post by 88Chris05 Sat 09 Oct 2021, 1:35 am

I've got a feeling that Wilder coming in another half-stone heavier than last time (which was already his career highest) is an indicator that he's going to try and blow Fury out early and just hope he can get it done inside four rounds. He got ragdolled on the inside and in the clinches last time so maybe he's bulked up a bit with that in mind too, but he gassed quickly when Fury really put it on him and I think he could gas even quicker at 238 here if things don't go his way early.

Like most I don't believe all this stuff about him suddenly becoming a more measured boxer / mover under Malik Scott and the added weight seems to indicate he's not going to try and box with Fury at all. He ain't going from a gunslinger to a smart boxer at the highest level in one fight and I think as soon as the going gets tough, he'll revert to type and be the same Wilder we've always known.

Fury coming in at a career-high was to be expected as he was saying a few months ago that ideally he'd like to have got up to 300 lb for this fight (!) had he had enough time. I guess you can take that with a pinch of salt but he has been consistent these past couple of years in stating that he and his team are working on getting him as heavy as possible without compromising any fluidity or mobility. He's only 4 lb heavier than last time (possibly less as you suggest, Jeff) so in theory he should be fine.

But I guess you have to consider the inactivity issue. Yes, Wilder hasn't fought since their second fight either, but he's not a fighter who relies on timing and feel at all, so if it's going to hurt anyone it might hurt Fury more. Fury has often defied conventional wisdom before and some of the rules which apply to other fighters don't seem to apply to him, so I wouldn't be surprised if he looks very sharp straight out of the traps again like he did last time. Nevertheless, it was Fury himself back in 2013 taunting Haye about his inactivity and telling him it would be his undoing when they fought, because inactivity was the worst thing for any fighter, especially at Haye's age....And Fury is now slightly older than Haye was then.

I actually don't think Fury is as focussed or well prepared for this third fight as he was for the second, because he was hoping for a different opponent in Joshua and I don't think he's been living the life quite as much these last eighteen months either. Some of the stuff going on in and around his camp has been very odd and you have to wonder how motivated he is to face someone who he outclassed and battered so comprehensively last time.

Unfortunately for Wilder I just don't think that will matter and the talent gap between them is just too big to be bridged even if Fury is only at 70% of what he was in their second fight. I think Wilder will try to remedy the mistake he made last time and will try to avoid ceding the centre of the ring to Fury early - I'm expecting him to come out swinging. But I think that will be his undoing and Fury will start man handling and cracking him once he gets tired. Fury to stop him in the second half of the fight for me.

Let's hope the fight delivers because the build up has been awful. Only one of the fighters has tried to promote it or talk it up at all and let's be honest, nobody was really champing at the bit for it to be made back in the Summer.
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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 09 Oct 2021, 8:08 am

Come on Deontay!

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Post by No name Bertie Sat 09 Oct 2021, 11:30 am

The constant incitement from the Deontay Wilder side to paint Tyson Fury as a cheater at every opportunity plus his fervent fans appearing to believe it all - that Fury is a cheater, a doper, a racist, is part of a white racist conspiracy against the "brothers", deserves to be killed etc - is a right turn off for me for the entire sport of boxing. I hope there is no violence inside or outside the arena. Some reckon the fight could be decided by a disqualification.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 09 Oct 2021, 11:51 am

He is a cheater, a doper, a homophope and a misogynist. There's no painting going on, it's the reality.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 09 Oct 2021, 1:43 pm

Not sure Wilder can be as bad as last time..Also sure he has spent the last year working out how to deal with Fury rushing him..

So I doubt Fury will press this time.. Not sure the extra weight helps either though Wilder would be most harmed by lack of speed.

Fury by decision.

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Post by Noble-Surfer Sat 09 Oct 2021, 9:49 pm

If Fury starts this fight in the same way he did the last one, it's hard to see what Wilder can do to stop him/ negate his tactics. But even if Wilder does find a way to keep Fury off him, or Fury decides not to rush him, Fury can also box rings round him like he did in the first fight - he's not going to struggle to change tactics during the fight... I wouldn't be surprised to see Fury mix it up a bit throughout the fight - switching between fighting on the inside and boxing from range, keeping Wilder guessing throughout, and catching him on the counter when he does try to throw the right.
Fury inside 8 for me.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 09 Oct 2021, 10:04 pm

Should be a comfortable Fury win, but there's a chance that an unmotivated Fury gets caught cold by Wilder at some point.

Hope Wilder's costume isn't too heavy!

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 09 Oct 2021, 11:11 pm

I think it'll be a worse beatdown than before. I feel that Wilder will try to bomb out Fury early but will be made to miss and look stupid. I think he'll be countered to hell and back, then when he's knackered Fury will KO him, again.

I don't like either fighter, but aside from a lucky Hail Mary I don't see Wilder winning this.

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Post by rapidringsroad Sun 10 Oct 2021, 1:59 am

I don't like either fighter also but Fury has amazed me on at least two occasions. First recovering from that 11th round punch that made Fury look like a dead starfish on the beach, and how in the second fight he made Wilder look like an amateur. Unless Wilder goes all out for a Knockout in the early rounds and manages it before he runs out of steam, it's got to be another win for Fury.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:16 am

Ref is screwing Wilder; two very slow counts and allowing Fury to hold far too much.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:21 am

Wilder looks tired after six. Fury should take control from here but he's getting a little careless.
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:36 am

The fight should be over, he was gone in the fourth.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:42 am

Great win for Fury, outclassed Wilder again. Wilder took far too much punishment and should have been pulled out earlier, though his survival instincts were excellent.

Tremendous fight, full credit to both fighters. No fourth, please. Let that be the end.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:43 am

Be nice to see a Fury fight refereed properly; grappling, long counts and the usual holding the head down with the left and hitting with the right.

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Post by Jeff Navarro Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:48 am

Fury is the benchmark at heavyweight. Whether you like him or hate him, credit to Wilder for showing the courage to last nearly 11 rounds.
Fury vs Whyte is a waste of time
Wilder still relevant maybe vs Joshua after the Usyk business plays out

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:49 am

Credit to Wilder for showing so much heart and sticking in there as long as he did - he got another chasing for the most part, that fourth round aside. Fury makes hard work of these things occasionally it has to be said but in general the gap between them was huge again.

But Lordy, the guy (Wilder!) has no inside game whatsoever, no defence and his stamina was questionable as I thought it might be, albeit Fury had plenty to do with that.

Get the mandatory against the winner of Wallin-Whyte out the way early-ish in 2022, then onto the winner of the Joshua-Usyk rematch in the summer. No more farting about.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:53 am

Think Chris called it in the second post of the thread. The gap in boxing skills, and arguably in fitness, is just too big between the two for Wilder to overcome.

Wilder being a heavyweight with concussive power, he'll always have the cliched "puncher's chance", and to be fair he came close here after landing that big right hand in the fourth, which had Fury in survival mode for the rest of the round.

But once Fury got through that, he never looked like losing. In fact I didn't give Wilder another round after the fourth, and from the sixth he was looking like he'd shot his bolt. From then it felt like only a matter of time, and so it proved. Good finish from Fury in the end, with the ref correctly stepping in to stop it. I had Fury up by about 6 going into round 11 on the cards for what it's worth.

So a deserved win for Fury. A moment of carelessness in round 4, allied to Wilder finding an excellent shot, nearly cost him, but in the end Fury's extra class was more than enough to bring a decisive end to the trilogy.

Credit to Wilder. He dug deep at times, and scrapped hard to the end, but ultimately he's not on the same level as Fury.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 10 Oct 2021, 5:58 am

As an aside, I'm really irked by some comments I've read (not on here) saying that this fight came down to who had the most heart, wanted it more, etc. Sorry, but no! The fight came down to who was - by some way - the better fighter, simple as.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 6:09 am

Yeah I guess we're all guilty of talking in clichés from time to time, Mad for Chelsea, but that's one of the more annoying ones out there. I suspect Wilder might well have 'wanted this' more than Fury to be honest, as I mentioned earlier that I wasn't convinced that Fury was as focussed or well-drilled for this as he was last time out. But sometimes the other guy is just better than you and aside from having one-punch knockout power there's no other facet of boxing where Wilder has an edge over Fury.

Despite the knockdowns and the fact that it was an entertaining and enjoyable fight, I think that should really close the book on Fury-Wilder now. Will be interesting to see what Wilder's next move is, assuming he doesn't retire. Fury won't entertain him again and Joshua and Usyk have got a rematch to look forward to with the winner probably eyeing up Fury. He's probably out of the world title picture for at least a year. After taking another loss like that and given his age I wonder if he'd be willing to start doing the round robin with other contenders in the division to re-establish his credentials.
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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 6:11 am

Good fight. Thought Wilder was on to something with the body jabs, but he never really changed levels, and he abandoned what was a successful strategy up to that point 90 seconds into the second round.

Secondly Wilder really does he freakish power, and its just as well because he's an astonishingly poor boxer. Telegraphs the right, makes no attempt to use the jab as anything but a measuring stick, and then windmills when he's getting some success. He fought valiantly here, but I left the fight thinking he lacks the defence, tactics or stamina to beat any of the other big five (including Whyte here) unless he lands a hospital shot.

Finally - Fury is the king of the division, I suppose, but I left this fight thinking he's actually pretty beatable. The body jab is there all night. He's technical a bit of an iffy puncher so he doesn't hurt you like he should, which is the only reason Wilder made it through 11. He's also now been dropped five times in his career, as well has had an awful cut vs Wallin so for all the talk of his defensive skill, the head also doesn't seem too hard to find. I'd think he beats Whyte but while Whyte doesn't have the murderous power Wilder does, he's technically much cleaner, and his money shot is his left hook, so I think it actually lends itself to being an interesting fight.


*Saying all that, I'm not sure how up for this Fury was, so some of his performance could just be down to the fact that he wanted to get this fight out of the way. He certainly physically looked a lot softer than he did in the second fight at a similar weight.
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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 6:25 am

I think that's part of Fury's appeal, Raf. He is definitely deserving of being considered the best Heavy in the world, but he is also beatable as you say. Has a bit of the Marciano about him in the sense that he's flirted with defeat a few times but managed to come through on each occasion, which makes his '0' seem that little bit more impressive and interesting than someone who has just steamrollered everyone and not been extended.

His technique isn't the easiest on the eye and he doesn't turn his shots over with the power you'd maybe expect. I think his greatest asset, apart from his size and strength, is just that he's such a natural fighter with great instincts which allow him to adapt off the cuff and find a way to win. I think it's an instinct and attitude which is hard to teach.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 10 Oct 2021, 6:47 am

So, where to next? Like Chris I don't think there's much appeal in Wilder and Fury fighting again: I think even his detractors would agree that Fury has won the trilogy fairly conclusively now. With Joshua having apparently invoked the Usyk re-match clause, those two won't be available for the better part of the year (re-match expected sometime around March apparently). Does Fury just wait around for that, taking some sort of "keep busy" fight in the meantime? And if so, who? And what about Wilder? Does he try to work his way back to a title fight by taking care of the "best of the rest" (so Whyte or something)? Or wait until Fury/Joshua/Usyk figure out who "the man" is, and go for one last shot (possibly hoping it doesn't end up being Fury again)?

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Post by Jeff Navarro Sun 10 Oct 2021, 6:49 am

Fury has to defend against the winner of Whyte-Wallin otherwise he’ll lose the wbc title.

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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 6:58 am

88Chris05 wrote:I think that's part of Fury's appeal, Raf. He is definitely deserving of being considered the best Heavy in the world, but he is also beatable as you say. Has a bit of the Marciano about him in the sense that he's flirted with defeat a few times but managed to come through on each occasion, which makes his '0' seem that little bit more impressive and interesting than someone who has just steamrollered everyone and not been extended.

His technique isn't the easiest on the eye and he doesn't turn his shots over with the power you'd maybe expect. I think his greatest asset, apart from his size and strength, is just that he's such a natural fighter with great instincts which allow him to adapt off the cuff and find a way to win. I think it's an instinct and attitude which is hard to teach.

Thing is though, Fury's list of foes isn't that impressive, in reality. It's basically just Wlad and Wilder. In both cases - the Wlad win was good, but either side of that Fury loss, Wlad was really extended by Bryant Jennings. At the time I thought Bryant was a pretty good prospect, being 6'4 with a 7'1 wingspan and a bit of mobility to his game, but he then faced Ortiz and Ortiz absolutely torched him. Obviously post-Fury, Wlad gets into a war with AJ and loses, so that's a good win, but Wlad maybe wasn't Wlad anymore at that point. Then it's the Wilder series, and that just depends on your view of Wilder. I think Wilder got lucky that he faced Ortiz somewhere between 10 and 15 years past his physical prime or he'd have been 0-2 in that series too. He's a murderous puncher, and because of that he probably would have been a world champion at any point in the history of the sport, especially post 1975 but it's not a coincidence he was king of the WBC hill for five years and somehow, someway didn't once manage to unify. He fought slobs and thought he could catch Fury slipping in 2018.

So saying "Fury always finds a way" to me isn't that impressive when he's finding a way vs Pianeta and Schwarz. He's obviously a helluva puzzle to solve though. 6'9 280lbs, moves really well and has great cardio for his size. I'm not suggesting he's easy work for someone, but I saw more hope for Whyte in this fight than I had thought was there prior to it
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Post by Jeff Navarro Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:12 am

Don’t really see what Whyte brings to the table. Wilder has four knockdowns against Fury and yet still ended up 0-3.
Whyte has been knocked down by lesser punchers in Parker and Rivas. He was also brutally laid out by Povetkin.
As we’ve seen one shot isn’t enough to take out Fury. Whyte doesn’t have the power either.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:16 am

Good points Raf, but that's as much an indictment of the Heavyweight division overall as it is Fury I guess. All of Fury, Joshua and Wilder have been world champions on and off since 2015/2016 but all three are short on genuine quality wins. But in terms of their best few victories Fury has a clear lead over the other two. Joshua has a bigger pool of solid wins underneath that but obviously a couple of defeats, too. Wilder's record is the flimsiest of them all.

I don't think anyone would argue that Fury has beaten all that much quality outside of Wladimir and Wilder but nevertheless those fights are still a good indicator of what I'm taking about re: his adaptability and mentality. I'm expecting him to lose eventually but hey, it's a sport. He's no Ray Leonard, let me be clear on that, but just like Leonard he might not need all that many solid or good names on his record if he has the right three or four names at the top of it by the time he retires.
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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:19 am

As I said, he doesn't hit as hard as Wilder, but he load up one punch as much. Whyte put Chisora to sleep with one punch, something I'm fairly certain had never been done before, and that's before Chisora ran Usyk and Parker close, so it wasn't a shell of the man. Parker has only one knockdown for his career and he walked into that left hand too.

I'm not saying Whyte beats Fury. I'm saying there's no way Whyte doesn't land as often, and probably more than Wilder. Which makes it interesting because Whyte can bang with either hand.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:28 am

Scorecards all had Fury ahead, though by less than I did: 95-91, 94-92, 95-92, whereas I had it 96-90. I scored it the same as Judge 1, except for round 5 which they gave to Wilder, where I had it to Fury; I'll admit I could have been overcompensating based on Fury recovering well from round 4, but I sometimes think there's a tendency to "carry over" a good round for one fighter, so if their next round is OK they get that one too... They scored it (Fury first): 9-10, 10-9, 10-8, 7-10, 9-10, 10-9, 10-9, 10-9, 10-9, 10-8.

Judge 2 had Wilder winning round 2, which I don't really understand at all (?), as well as round 9, which I think is generous but understandable. Judge 3 had Wilder winning round 5 (see above), and scored round 10 10-9 to Fury despite the knock-down.

Overall scoring seems pretty consistent, reflecting the fact that most rounds were fairly clear. I think Fury +2 is a bit generous to Wilder TBH, but will admit that my Fury +6 may be a bit generous to Fury...

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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:34 am

It all comes down to how good you think Wilder is, I guess. If you think he's a good Heavyweight, then Fury going 3-0 against as well as beating Wlad is a pretty good resume. I just don't see anything in his game which gives him anything but a puncher's chance if he's fighting the guys at the top of the table.

Ironically, unlike you Chris, I'm actually a huge fan of the current crop of heavyweights. I also think sometimes when you're in a moment things look different to when it's all said and done and it's time to bemoan the dearth of quality heavyweights in boxing in 2031. I was watching Rummy's Corner breakdown of the 90s Heavyweight scene a couple days ago, and amusingly, throughout the 90s, the only year Lennox Lewis was rated by Ring as the #1 Heavyweight in the world was 1999, and yet if you asked most people who ruled heavyweight boxing in the 90s, or at least who was the best of the decade, I think most would say Lennox.


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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:37 am

I don't think 96-90 is too generous to Fury at all, Mad for Chelsea. That's the score I had at the time of the stoppage as well (a rare occasion I'm in agreement with Richie Woodhall!).

I thought every round was quite straightforward to score and clearly won by one man or the other. Round one clearly Wilder's, and he obviously gets a 10-7 in the fourth. All the rest to Fury with a couple of 10-8s along the way. A couple of strange calls in individual rounds there by the judges. I guess round two didn't have all that much action in it so maybe can excuse one of them giving that to Wilder.

But round five? Like you I don't see a case for it. Fury recovered well on his stool after the fourth and switched the momentum back towards himself quite clearly in the fifth, for me. Giving Wilder the ninth is a bit daft to say the least and it looks like a sympathy vote to me. By that stage he was really starting to take quite a lot of punishment and looked like he was about to keel over. Yeah, good showing of heart to land that surprise uppercut near the end and rally with a flurry when he looked like he had nothing left, but it doesn't negate the fact he lost 2:30 of the round beforehand.

Also not sure why you wouldn't score the tenth a 10-8 to Fury as well. It was textbook. Won the round in any case and dropped Wilder heavily with a big clean shot. Judges really are an annoying bunch sometimes.

Anyway, I guess you can quibble the odd round here and there but bottom line is that Fury was well ahead by the time of the stoppage and the fight had only been going one way from round five or six onwards.
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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:41 am

As a final aside - I'm not sure what Malik Scott added to Wilder's camp. It seems like there was some discussions about throwing jabs to the body, but it seems like that was less a tactic and more something they thought would be cool to show for a round. If anything Wilder was even more one dimensional this fight.
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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 7:51 am

kingraf wrote:It all comes down to how good you think Wilder is, I guess. If you think he's a good Heavyweight, then Fury going 3-0 against as well as beating Wlad is a pretty good resume. I just don't see anything in his game which gives him anything but a puncher's chance if he's fighting the guys at the top of the table.

Ironically, unlike you Chris, I'm actually a huge fan of the current crop of heavyweights. I also think sometimes when you're in a moment things look different to when it's all said and done and it's time to bemoan the dearth of quality heavyweights in boxing in 2031. I was Rummy's Corner breakdown of the 90s Heavyweight scene a couple days ago, and amusingly, throughout the 90s, the only year Lennox Lewis was rated by Ring as the #1 Heavyweight in the world was 1999, and yet if you asked most people who ruled heavyweight boxing in the 90s, or at least who was the best of the decade, I think most would say Lennox.

I've always been a Fury fan, Raf, and I think Usyk's win over Joshua was great for the division as a whole. I'm just realistic about the Heavyweight scene overall, though. Don't get me wrong - it's been in much worse shape in the past. 2004-2008 were the absolute doldrums and things are much better now than they were then. Better than they were even as recently as 2012-2014 too, for instance. But I still don't think there's all that much great talent around.

As you say though, you never know - we might look back on these years in the future and think they weren't so bad after all. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you've got until it's gone and all that. And yes the 1990s are always interesting to consider - it sure as hell wasn't Lennox's decade or era as you say. Didn't fight Holyfield until the decade was in its dying embers, never fought Tyson within that decade at all and got him only when he was shot, meanwhile fights against the likes of Moorer, Bowe, even old man Foreman never materialised (some of that's his fault, some not of course). Yet strangely enough he tends to rate highest out of all those guys (Foreman aside, perhaps) overall.

A potentially awesome era for the Heavyweights, comparable to the golden era of the 1970s, ruined by politics, indiscipline by some of its leading actors and a bit of bad luck sprinkled in. So much talent around in that decade and - and yet for a while, right in the middle of it, we had a scenario where the WBC, WBA and IBF belts were held by Bruno, Seldon and Botha respectively!
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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 8:20 am

Indeed - Michael Moorer still doesn't look like much to me, especially head to head, and yet he was a two time HW champ in the 90s. Once unified! If Golota doesn't beat Bowe's gonads while he's beating him up, he probably goes 2-0 against him.

I guess the modern scene is worse than the 90s, but to me, it's all muchness. If you put the big four in the 90s, I'm not sure they become also rans. I mean, even ignoring random wins by Botha and Seldon. Holyfield lost to Moorer. Lewis got got by McCall. Bowe, as mentioned would have lost to Golota.
Tyson lost to Douglas. You go back a decade and Gerrie Coetzee and Michael Dokes were busy lifting belts. The 70s standout, but the more I look at it, the more I suspect they stand out because it was the last time American fighters were front and center in the division. In reality, especially post '75, I don't think the era stands out as much as advertised. Jimmy Young should have been given the Ali decision to go with his Foreman win, and bless him, but cute as he was 6'1 190lbs Jimmy Young is not beating a 6'9 280lbs Fury.

The only era I genuinely look and shudder is probably 2000-2005. Where its basically an Old Lewis and a revolving door of would-be Kings.


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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 8:46 am

Yeah Moorer is a fighter who gets my goat a little. Gets rated highly at Heavyweight and for the life of me I can't see why. Talented 175 pounder but at Heavyweight nothing more than serviceable. Unfortunately those three (if you count his WBO strap, which a lot of people didn't at the time) title stints he had, plus the fact that he has a win over Holyfield, mean you have to consider him something of a major player in the division in the 90s and a name you'd ideally get on your record.

Great brawl with Cooper but he was a serial stinker after that. Flat footed and very unimaginative compared to what he was like at Light-Heavyweight. The Schulz and Bean fights were almost unbearable (the best bit of the latter was Butch Lewis ranting in his post-fight interview). Yo-yoed by Holyfield in their return. Managed to somehow get himself knocked out by Foreman when a win was there for the taking.

Even when he beat Holyfield the first time out he made stupidly hard work of it against an opponent who was clearly not right at the time, hence Atlas losing his cool with him in the corner and Larry Merchant's accurate line during the fight that: "Holyfield looks like he's ready to lose the title - the problem is, Moorer doesn't look like he's ready to win it." In the end they both took upset defeats within a couple of months of each other but had they met in a unification fight in 1995, Lewis would likely have demolished Mooorer to sew up the WBC, WBA and IBF belts and who knows, maybe we would be calling the 1990s his decade now.

With regards to the cruddiest era...Well you're right that 2000-05 was no great shakes but at least we still had a great fighter and consensus champion there in Lewis for the most part. But 2004-2008? Lewis gone, Vitali on a four-year hiatus, Wladimir regrouping from those shockers against Sanders and Brewster and far from the dominant or admired champion he went on to become. Belts being passed around frequently from one average titlist to another such as Valuev, Maskaev, Liakhovich, Briggs, Peter etc. John Ruiz of all people and old, fat Toney would have taken their belts off them but for some awful judging, which says a lot!

And Jeez, some of the title fights during those years. Skelton against Chagaev might just be the worst of the lot.

You know what? I take it all back. I love this era of Heavyweights!
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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 10:34 am

Outside of the 70s, I'm not sure there's ever been a heavyweight era that the people going through it didn't think was the worst of all time!
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Post by No name Bertie Sun 10 Oct 2021, 10:43 am

I thought Tyson Fury handled those knockdowns in the fourth really well.  The first knockdown was from a right flush down the pipe through Fury's guard as Fury was coming forward.  It would have probably laid out any other boxer, but Fury had a delayed reaction to it, taking the full impact and then going down but being conscious of the time being counted down by the referee.  The second knockdown seemed more like a soft blow / push to the back of the head and Fury went down in a more controlled manner and was partly the result of Fury still feeling the after effects of the first knockdown punch and sustained pressure from Wilder.  This was a much improved, determined and stronger Deontay Wilder than in the first two fights, and as such I think this was Deontay Wilders best boxing performance to date despite the defeat.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 10:46 am

Not sure anyone rates Moorer that highly...Knocked out in 13 seconds and knocked out by a 45 year old....Carl Williams outclassed a peak Cooper so that victory wasn't much...Holy was on the decline.

People moaned about the 80s but Page..Tubbs...Tate and Dokes were all top Amateurs and fought the great Cubans repeatedly..

Since Lewis the division has been crap...Wlad served for ten years and mauled in a straight line...Hence why a straight puncher like Sanders ruined him.

Prefer the division now to when Wlad was around.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 10 Oct 2021, 10:58 am

The current crop being slightly better than the post Lewis years isn't really a glowing endorsement. Wilder is technically poor and should still have been afforded the opportunity to finish Fury off but he wasn't; twice. If someone with no jab can get to Fury with that right hand he's defensively poor, there's also the fact Deontay appears to have little punch resistance.

Fury gets credit for the Wlad win where he effectively feinted to victory, that said he doesn't stand a chance against a younger version. Put Golota in against this lot and I think he has a very good chance of winning, anyone who can outjab Bowe isn't lacking in skill.

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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 11:03 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not sure anyone rates Moorer that highly...Knocked out in 13 seconds and knocked out by a 45 year old....Carl Williams outclassed a peak Cooper so that victory wasn't much...Holy was on the decline.

People moaned about the 80s but Page..Tubbs...Tate and Dokes were all top Amateurs and fought the great Cubans repeatedly..


It's less anyone rating him and more the fact that he got two world title reigns (three if you count the WBO) while being bang average.

Dokes showed great amateur pedigree as he failed to effectively stop Coetzee's boxing masterclass of leading with a left hook and following it with a windmill right ad nauseam.
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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 11:14 am

Where is this slow count stuff coming from Soul? If Fury had two slow counts in round four then Wilder most definitely had one already in round three and was probably saved by the bell. The first three knockdowns all produced about a twenty second break in the action (easy to time stamp them) from the point of the guy hitting the deck to the fighters being waved back in, which is about the going rate these days once a referee has completed a mandatory eight count, asked the fighter if he can continue, given him instructions and checked that the other guy is in a neutral corner. The longest break in the action actually seemed to be when Wilder got put over again in round ten if anything.
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Post by catchweight Sun 10 Oct 2021, 11:23 am

Great fight. The trilogy has been fantastic for heavyweight boxing in general. Fury in particular has been a compelling story. I think he would hold up just fine in most other heavyweight eras.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 10 Oct 2021, 11:25 am

43 seconds across the two knockdowns, not slow at all...

17 seconds for the first Wilder knockdown.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 11:32 am

Soul Requiem wrote:43 seconds across the two knockdowns, not slow at all...

No slower than Wilder's knockdowns (one of which had already come before) is my point. If Wilder was unfairly robbed of a chance to finish Fury in round four then Fury was already robbed of his chance to finish Wilder beforehand surely? You can argue that a referee's count was lenient or that he took too long resuming the action afterwards but in terms of one fighter being disadvantaged it doesn't really work if the counts are consistent for the pair of them, which they were.

I can see this myth growing like the one about the final bell being run a few seconds early in Usyk-Joshua to save Joshua from being stopped when he was in trouble at the end. I was just as annoyed with that one so it's not just Fury fanboyism.
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Post by No name Bertie Sun 10 Oct 2021, 11:53 am

What is the opposite of "rose tinted glasses".  The marketing of Boxing tries to get people emotionally invested in boxers, hating on some and adoring others, and it is this emotion that draws them in.  On social media you can see many comments that don't assess the boxing in an impartial manner but focus on a narrative that self-confirms their own emotional beliefs.  To the impartial observer it seems like all their attention is on whinging, blaming, and the like.

The advantage of the modern internet age is that we now can get to hear various experts in the sport, the specialist journalists, the boxers, the trainers, the promoters, retired boxers and the like - so we get a more rounded picture of the professional consensus.  It seems to me that in general in the boxing world Tyson Fury is praised for "moving like a lower weight division boxer", and that teaming up with the Kronk gym and Sugar Hill has been an important step in Fury's development.  

It seems that it was Sugar Hill that helped Tyson Fury get over the shock and anxiety of the fourth round, and getting him back focused on the job at hand, to wear Deontay Wilder down and then knock him out in the later rounds, avoiding the risks he took in the fourth round after he thought Wilder was ready for the taking.   Sugar Hill really demanded that knock out and it seems to be the Kronk gym style.

I am coming round to the idea that Deontay Wilder is an under-rated fighter and that his team have unnecessarily shielded him from "risky" fights and this has resulted in a certain level of stagnation.  However he is very smart in being able to set up his opponent for his lethal right hand.  It is not by luck that he has knocked everyone he has faced either down, or out.  I would like to see Deontay Wilder continue with boxing and face opponents like AJ, Whyte, Ruiz, Parker, Joyce.  

It seems the only reason why his team initially allowed Wilder to fight Tyson Fury was because he was in a dreadful state physically following his long time away from boxing when he was facing severe and suicidal depression.

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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 12:01 pm

catchweight wrote:Great fight. The trilogy has been fantastic for heavyweight boxing in general. Fury in particular has been a compelling story. I think he would hold up just fine in most other heavyweight eras.

Great is a little strong, surely. It had the drama of a great fight. But nowhere near the skill.
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Post by kingraf Sun 10 Oct 2021, 12:05 pm

No name Bertie wrote:What is the opposite of "rose tinted glasses".  The marketing of Boxing tries to get people emotionally invested in boxers, hating on some and adoring others, and it is this emotion that draws them in.  On social media you can see many comments that don't assess the boxing in an impartial manner but focus on a narrative that self-confirms their own emotional beliefs.  To the impartial observer it seems like all their attention is on whinging, blaming, and the like.

The advantage of the modern internet age is that we now can get to hear various experts in the sport, the specialist journalists, the boxers, the trainers, the promoters, retired boxers and the like - so we get a more rounded picture of the professional consensus.  It seems to me that in general in the boxing world Tyson Fury is praised for "moving like a lower weight division boxer", and that teaming up with the Kronk gym and Sugar Hill has been an important step in Fury's development.  

It seems that it was Sugar Hill that helped Tyson Fury get over the shock and anxiety of the fourth round, and getting him back focused on the job at hand, to wear Deontay Wilder down and then knock him out in the later rounds, avoiding the risks he took in the fourth round after he thought Wilder was ready for the taking.   Sugar Hill really demanded that knock out and it seems to be the Kronk gym style.

I am coming round to the idea that Deontay Wilder is an under-rated fighter and that his team have unnecessarily shielded him from "risky" fights and this has resulted in a certain level of stagnation.  However he is very smart in being able to set up his opponent for his lethal right hand.  It is not by luck that he has knocked everyone he has faced either down, or out.  I would like to see Deontay Wilder continue with boxing and face opponents like AJ, Whyte, Ruiz, Parker, Joyce.  

It seems the only reason why his team initially allowed Wilder to fight Tyson Fury was because he was in a dreadful state physically following his long time away from boxing when he was facing severe and suicidal depression.

I think Wilder should call it a day. The last 6 rounds are the type that leave you with CTE, and I'm not sure there's a path to heavyweight title moving forward that doesn't either go through Fury or the man who beats Fury. Add to that the fact that he's 36 in a few months, the fact that all told, this trilogy would have made him $60m to go with $20m odd in other fights, and I think he really should just call it a day. The only thing left for him to prove really is whether he was the #2-4 of his era, and I'm not sure that's an attractive prospect for him.
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Post by No name Bertie Sun 10 Oct 2021, 12:17 pm

Deontay Wilder is an even later starter to boxing than AJ - starting out in boxing at the age of 20.  He has had 35 amateur fights and 45 professional fights and many of his professional fights didn't last very long, so I think he still has miles left on the clock so to speak.  He may retire.  He still seems pretty angry with the turn of events.  I think he still has a lot to offer and it would be interesting to see how he fares against other top level boxers, but as you say, maybe that is not enough to keep him motivated to continue in his career as a professional boxer.


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Post by catchweight Sun 10 Oct 2021, 12:19 pm

No name Bertie wrote:What is the opposite of "rose tinted glasses".  The marketing of Boxing tries to get people emotionally invested in boxers, hating on some and adoring others, and it is this emotion that draws them in.  On social media you can see many comments that don't assess the boxing in an impartial manner but focus on a narrative that self-confirms their own emotional beliefs.  To the impartial observer it seems like all their attention is on whinging, blaming, and the like.

The advantage of the modern internet age is that we now can get to hear various experts in the sport, the specialist journalists, the boxers, the trainers, the promoters, retired boxers and the like - so we get a more rounded picture of the professional consensus.  It seems to me that in general in the boxing world Tyson Fury is praised for "moving like a lower weight division boxer", and that teaming up with the Kronk gym and Sugar Hill has been an important step in Fury's development.  

It seems that it was Sugar Hill that helped Tyson Fury get over the shock and anxiety of the fourth round, and getting him back focused on the job at hand, to wear Deontay Wilder down and then knock him out in the later rounds, avoiding the risks he took in the fourth round after he thought Wilder was ready for the taking.   Sugar Hill really demanded that knock out and it seems to be the Kronk gym style.

I am coming round to the idea that Deontay Wilder is an under-rated fighter and that his team have unnecessarily shielded him from "risky" fights and this has resulted in a certain level of stagnation.  However he is very smart in being able to set up his opponent for his lethal right hand.  It is not by luck that he has knocked everyone he has faced either down, or out.  I would like to see Deontay Wilder continue with boxing and face opponents like AJ, Whyte, Ruiz, Parker, Joyce.  

It seems the only reason why his team initially allowed Wilder to fight Tyson Fury was because he was in a dreadful state physically following his long time away from boxing when he was facing severe and suicidal depression.

Wilder is certainly a dangerous fighter, if not technically sound. Genuine power and not afraid to use it. I was impressed with him in this fight. Would have been easy to take the fight for the money and just go through the motions after the nature of the loss in the second fight. But he came in confident and threw everything he had at it.

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Post by 88Chris05 Sun 10 Oct 2021, 12:36 pm

Yeah I don't think Wilder will retire, but wouldn't be surprised if he does either. If he continues his team might be looking to steer him towards some lower risk fights for the next year or so against guys who, even if they beat him, aren't likely inflict as much damage on him as Fury has in these last two fights.

On the other hand, with the bubble around him now burst, no title to his name and perhaps some pressure lifted from his shoulders - who knows, maybe his handlers will let the shackles off and take an all or nothing approach to see if they can have one last big moment?

Assuming he's still fit to fight at a similar level (not a given though let's hope there's no lasting damage) I'd still love to see Joshua-Wilder. God knows it was a joke that it never even seemed close to happening when there was that huge window of opportunity back in 2016 - 2018, and when the fight would have been enormous.

Sadly if it couldn't get made then, when there was every reason for it to be, it's hard to see a path to it now. I think Joshua would have to lose to Usyk again for Matchroom to even consider Wilder as an opponent. But it would be a good setup - basically each man's last chance to really keep themselves amongst the elite - and you know there's going to be someone tasting the canvas and possibly staying there. I'd be interested to see who people would pick if the pair of them were matched now.
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