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Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 14 Oct 2021, 9:46 am

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a new thread for the winter cricket of 2021 that we (covid depending) have ahead of us. Obviously the World T20, but that has it's own thread...

The main event being the Ashes, with the dates below

Men's Ashes schedule
First Test: 8-12 December - Gabba, Brisbane (00:00 GMT)
Second Test: 16-20 December - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (d/n - 04:00 GMT)
Third Test: 26-30 December - MCG, Melbourne (23:30 GMT, 25 December)
Fourth Test: 5-9 January - SCG, Sydney (23:30 GMT, 4 January)
Fifth Test: 14-18 January - Optus Stadium, Perth (02:30 GMT) (subject to change)

Women's Ashes schedule
Test: 27-30 January - Manuka Oval, Canberra (23:00 GMT, 26 January)
First T20: 4 February - North Sydney Oval, Sydney (08:10 GMT)
Second T20: 6 February - North Sydney Oval, Sydney (08:10 GMT)
Third T20: 10 February - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (08:10 GMT)
First ODl: 13 February - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (23:05 GMT, 12 February)
Second ODl: 16 February - Junction Oval, Melbourne (23:05 GMT, 15 February)
Third ODI: 19 February - Junction Oval, Melbourne (23:05 GMT, 18 February)

India have a busy winter, with New Zealand touring in November/December and then India head to South Africa for the boxing day test/January.
There's an interesting test series between Bangladesh and Pakistan in Bangladesh in Nov/Dec, which should be an entertaining watch. Unfortunately I don't see much cricket on the schedule for Pakistan/Sri Lanka (unless I am missing something!)
A few others on the future tours programme, but not confirmed yet as far as I see...
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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Dec 2021, 3:27 am

Duty281 wrote:They just persisted with Hazlewood and Cummins for too long, but Starc's on now. Intelligent effort from Pope, he's picked up a number of sharp singles and rotated well. Buttler's starting a decent counter-attack despite dodgy footwork...but looks as though he's feathered one down leg. He does look very guilty.

No, not out. No ultra-edge? Have we gone back in time?

I think that's a technical glitch they are trying to sort out at the minute. If that is the case I'd be pretty miffed about losing a review to be honest.

Lyon vs Buttler could be fun here if they bring him back on.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Dec 2021, 3:31 am

It's an overcast day, Buttler has faced 40 balls and he's already squeezing a ton of sweat out his helmet. How do Australians like playing cricket so much?  Laugh  Wearing full batting gear in that heat must be horrible!

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 3:43 am

Thinking we're seeing it was a good call to bat first, the ball's done little in this afternoon session and batting is considerably easier. It was just England's top order, with the exception of Hameed, couldn't weather that exceptional onslaught in the first hour.

Also as expected we're seeing how tough it'll be for England's battery of medium-pacers once the ball is more than 25 overs old.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 3:51 am

Starc accounts for Buttler and the door is open again. The left-armer was always on top in that battle.

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 3:51 am

Good hour for England , despite losing Hameed early.

A word of praise for Hameed too for battling through that torrid first session - wasn't at all easy. Important contribution because I'm not sure this Buttler counterattack would have succeeded so well if he'd been in half hour before lunch. Still not sure Hameed is going to prosper on Australian pitches but this was a very promising first effort.

Unfortunately the drink break has now claimed the breakthrough as it so often does...

Buttler edging Starc behind after a belligerent 39. Suppose it was unreasonable to expect it to last. Still that fifty stand at least has England upward of 100 - which looked in serious doubt at one point !

What can Chris Woakes do now ?

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 4:03 am

Great moment for Green, but down to another top effort in the field by Australia. Ruthless stuff.

Not long left now.

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 4:08 am

Ah there's a blow...

Great catch by Hazlewood: but Pope will be very disappointed to have got out - to Green of all bowlers - like that , after doing all the hard work. Green delighted to have a Test wicket at last : England right back in the mire after it appeared a recovery might be on.

Hope this is just today's circumstances , and isn't going to be a pattern. Three players getting to 25 so far but none going past forty. That would just leave too much to Root.

At 122/7 I fear even 200 looks out of reach. Let's hope for 150 plus at least...

Scratch that - as Robinson falls for yet another duck : let's get 130 Sad

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 4:13 am

Solid captaincy to bring himself back in after Pope's dismissal, got the reward. Was an utterly terrible shot from Robinson with his feet planted.

150 unlikely. Aussies probably going to bat into day three. Business as usual.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 4:39 am

147ao.

Exquisite Aussie bowling trio lay waste to flimsy, underprepared English batting line-up.

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 4:47 am

Another great catch from Hazlewood at fine leg wraps up things for just 147... Five for the excellent Cummins - whose captaincy debut has started about as well as he could have dreamed clap

Suppose it could have been worse after 29/4. But really that's a horror two sessions for the tourists. The main bats never got started : and the later order weren't able to go on beyond gutsy thirty-odds. Have to say Australia bowled - and fielded - quite splendidly. If they were at all rusty from not much red ball cricket , it didn't show. Puts them in a strong position.

Still , much like breaking serve in a tennis match , you have to follow up from skittling your opponent with runs of your own. England need to show they can do some damage of their own with the ball now.

Don't much like the look of that dark sky over the grandstand...

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 4:59 am

I see some goose on the BBC match live text blaming Root - for team selection ? Sure , Broad and Anderson would have added a lot to that score ... And batting first , of course : what would he have said if Australia had gone in first and been 180/2 at tea ?

Not our goose , of course Smile

I'm sure the decision to bat will be debated endlessly : but whether it was "brave" (Warne) or most unwise (Border among others) will perhaps depend largely on what follows ...

Not much , right now. Lights and covers on and we might just be done for the day. Might be a good thing for England as it will give them time to digest what has happened and start fresh rather than come out still a bit shell shocked and possibly over eager.

Hoping the conditions will be good for bowling again whenever this is resumed.

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 5:01 am

Yeah hosing down now. Think you chaps can get some sleep...if sleep will come after all that devil

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Post by VTR Wed 08 Dec 2021, 6:49 am

So it's the usual disaster already, even the last tour and the one before that didn't look this bad on day one. Will be amazed if this series isn't 4 or 5 nil

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 7:00 am

Well now it seems we are to have some play tonight yet...

Ground is known to dry quickly ; and it has .And apparently the light is deemed OK for cricket so Australia will be facing a few overs before the close.

Goes without saying England would really like a wicket or two Smile

But no...changed their minds. Stumps drawn.

So it remains completely Australia Day Smile

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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 7:31 am

Newspapers here might be a bit unbearable tomorrow...

Not too many bright spots for England but plenty for the home team.

Unfair to put too much blame on poor Rory Burns : but I think he has cemented a place in Ashes folklore - along with :

Phil (good morning Michael Slater ; how would you like a pie to start the day ?) de Freitas ; and Steve ( watch out in slips !) Harmison - as The Men Who Set The Tone For The Series...

But maybe he will get a second innings hundred a la Andrew Strauss ? A man can hope.

Really have to praise the Aussie bowling : it was relentless. A few boundaries when Buttler took the attack to them but they just kept pressing and got their man before serious damage could be inflicted ... And even Green didn't let things get away , and picked up Pope along the way. Some excellent catching both in the cordon and the outfield ensured nothing got away from them. Cummins would have to be delighted with his team as well as his own bowling.

At least Lyon is still waiting for his milestone Smile Leaves something for later on.

Can England make a game of it yet ? Well yes , it is possible. I'd imagine given the weather the bowling conditions will still be quite helpful tomorrow ; so if they can keep Australia down to a modest sort of first innings then they'll have a chance to bat themselves back into the game second time around. I somehow don't think too many people will be rushing to the betting shop to back that scenario but hey the reason we watch sport is because you never really know what will happen... I will remain hopeful - or try to .

If anyone has a hot line to the Gods of Cricket now would be a good time to ask for a little assistance.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 08 Dec 2021, 8:05 am

alfie wrote:

Can England make a game of it yet ? Well yes , it is possible. I'd imagine given the weather the bowling conditions will still be quite helpful tomorrow.

This is the point for me though, alfie. Of course there is always hope but we are leaving so much to guess work and chance, even if conditions are conducive. We've got an attack of 2 guys who have done nothing in Australia and one guy who has never bowled a ball in Australia. Then the all rounder and a spinner who hardly ever plays.

Leaving Anderson out was arrogant, leaving Broad out just compounds that arrogance. 1000 + test match wickets sat in the dressing room when you've been pumped for 147. Sure, they wouldn't have added to the score much and the batting is going to be fragile throughout the series but that isn't really the point for me. It is all about laying down a marker. First test of an Ashes series, play your best 11 and go from there. Give yourself the best chance of winning the opening game of the biggest occasion in cricket. England didn't do that with that selection.

It was sadly predictable though. It is a fine Australian bowling unit and that will be the difference.


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Post by sirfredperry Wed 08 Dec 2021, 8:35 am

Not sure what all the doom and gloom is about. England being 147 ahead after the first day of a Brisbane Test is good.

Seriously, though. Crazy to leave Anderson AND Broad out. Wonder if Root would have fielded first if it hadn't been for Nasser's mad insertion in 2002/03.


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Post by GSC Wed 08 Dec 2021, 8:39 am

The Aussie bowling attack is among the best in the world, conditions favoured bowling and as we know this England team has a lot of dead weight. The sad part really is nobody at all was surprised by the outcome.
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Post by Pal Joey Wed 08 Dec 2021, 8:52 am

alfie wrote:Newspapers here might be a bit unbearable tomorrow...


Don't read them then. It's a bit like using the mute button on the remote control. You don't have to read and you don't have to listen. Wink

I know what you mean though. What's done is done and I'm sure there will be rotten things written and said about how today unfolded but perhaps it would be better if they wait a few days before gloating or venting their anger. Who knows... I can see Australia losing a few early wickets too and then the pressure will be on. Wood (in particular) and Robinson must be itching to get at the top order...  as I read in the newspaper recently.

Did I see Piers Morgan swiping at a few Brett Lee thunderbolts in the nets earlier or was I only dreaming?
(that was really silly of both of them... back then)

On the commentary: agree with some of the sentiments expressed earlier. Don't mind listening to Mike Hussey and AB though... even if the latter is a bit dry I always enjoy listening to his insights. He's still so practical and pragmatic... and yes I do see why he was called The Godfather.

I'm still a bit scared of him even from a safe distance.
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 08 Dec 2021, 9:11 am

sirfredperry wrote:

Seriously, though. Crazy to leave Anderson AND Broad out. Wonder if Root would have fielded first if it hadn't been for Nasser's mad insertion in 2002/03.


Don't bring that back up. Feeling low enough as it is!

Playing the spinner must have been a factor as well. You almost need to bat first so they bowl in the 4th innings (still probably flawed logic given Leach has hardly played). You just hope you put at least 300 on first dig. Wishful thinking.


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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 08 Dec 2021, 9:12 am

I didn't like Pope's dismissal at all, he's got into a terrible habit of getting a start then playing a stupid shot. He has the talent for test cricket but not sure about his temperament.

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Post by sirfredperry Wed 08 Dec 2021, 9:37 am

Root may want to take heart from Brisbane 2010 when the England captain was out for nought in the first over.

England then trailed by 221 on first innings, managed a draw and went on to win the Ashes.

OK, very unlikely this will happen this time. But just shows how you can recover from a bad start (see also Hutton after Brisbane in 1954-55 and to a lesser extent Strauss after Cardiff in 2009).

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 08 Dec 2021, 9:40 am

Not sure the toss decision really should be examined too much, both captains wanted to bat...and it's hardly like it was Headingley in May over there, there was a bit of a green tinge and a little swing/seam movement, but nothing extreme to the point where England should be 147 all out.

Pretty much how it is probably going to go if Root/Stokes don't make any runs - we may crack 400 once or twice in the series, but it's likely to be massively under par scores no matter whether we bat first/second, who is in our bowling attack or whatever.

The pink ball test might be a total massacre of our batting
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Post by Gooseberry Wed 08 Dec 2021, 9:45 am

Hate to say it was predictable ...but it does match my predictions Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 5 1f600

Englands batting is feeble at the best of times and underprepared against three top class pace bowlers. Expected a little more from a side with 7 batsmen and an all rounder, but not a shock they got bundled cheaply and looked amateurish at times.

Cant blame the selections for this, its not like they left Chuck Norris on the bench and whilst Andersons batting couldnt be much worse than the top 7s he wasn't going to get them to 300 and cant play all 5 tests. Crawley is probably the nearest thing England have to an answer if this lot cant get their acts together second digs, but his abysmal form that got him dropped and not even getting to face a ball in the warm ups (a mistake?) didnt exactly make his selection obvious.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 08 Dec 2021, 10:05 am

Gooseberry wrote:

Cant blame the selections for this, its not like they left Chuck Norris on the bench and whilst Andersons batting couldnt be much worse than the top 7s he wasn't going to get them to 300 and cant play all 5 tests. Crawley is probably the nearest thing England have to an answer if this lot cant get their acts together second digs, but his abysmal form that got him dropped and not even getting to face a ball in the warm ups (a mistake?) didnt exactly make his selection obvious.

I'd agree you can't blame them for the batting but you can absolutely blame them for the general team make up. If not them, then who? We can't really blame the batters as we had already talked ad nauseum about how weak it is. I don't think there was a single person on here that hadn't passed comment on how fragile the batting line up is. So then you weaken the team even further by leaving out 1000 + test match wickets and leaving the bowling in the hands of a promising rookie and two people with no form in Australia. Makes zero sense to me. Leaving out one of them, sure. I don't agree, but sure. Leaving out both? Crazy decision by the selectors.

It isn't about whether Jimmy or Broady can bat (although I'd still fancy Broad, given the Botham factor he has with Australia, would have scored more than Robinson. He couldn't have done worse!) it is about putting as strong a team, or as close to, as you can in T1.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 08 Dec 2021, 10:30 am

Also I know I am bleating on about it, but it truly is pathetic that for the 2nd Ashes tour down under we have to put up with the horrendous Fox Cricket commentary lot - constant blabbering, pretty horrendous analysis (Warne spent 10 minutes saying Starc's ball to Burns didn't swing when it clearly did, Kerry O'Keefe somehow calling Stokes's dismissal a "turning point of the morning session" as if England were on top to that point???) and those were just the egregious ones.

How can BT bid so much for the rights (I have a mate who works at Sky, who says BT's bid for the right "blew the competition out of the water", competition that included Amazon this time too) and then just not even bother with a comms team is beyond me. Sky for all their faults, even in Covid times, had people commentating at home for Sri Lanka last year...while it wasn't always smooth or ideal, at least it was not a constant barrage of nonsense.

They've got the West Indies series later in the winter...we may just get the world feed and that's it for that one!
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Post by alfie Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:32 am

I am sure we will hear plenty more about team selection (whether it will or could make any difference or not , depending on how the rest of the game goes) Guess that is understandable , as leaving out both Broad and Anderson wasn't on my list of likely line-ups.

I was and am OK with Jimmy sitting this one out , for reasons previously given ; but Broad's omission puzzled me. Can't really see why you wouldn't at least let him try to keep his streak of domination over the dangerous Warner going : OK , different conditions and ball but this looked as close to English weather as you'd want and clearly plenty in the pitch for the seam bowlers.
I presume it was a process of elimination . "We need Wood for his pace ; we need Woakes for his batting ; can't go in without a spinner as the press will kick us to death...and Robinson is being seen as the new star : sorry Stuart you're out" . Can make a case for each of them , of course ; but I don't think I'd have gone that way. We will see : for the record I would probably have left out Robinson so if he gets six tomorrow I can get back in my box Smile

To be fair picking the ideal attack is far from easy so I'm not throwing rocks at them. (At least not yet) Any selection of bowlers may or may not do a job so let us give this lot a chance, eh ? Not like Australia who know very well who their best four are : at least if injuries strike later in the series England might conceivably have an easier time making like for like replacements...

Agree with Olly that the toss decision was far from unreasonable. Get through to lunch only two , or even three down and things might have gone a bit differently. Cummins wasn't sure whether he wanted to bat or bowl either and was probably quite glad he was saved the trouble.
Truth is with this batting group - especially with the lack of practice they've had - against this bowling outfit we are always at risk of one or two early wickets turning into a rout - whether batting on day one or three. Have to hope they don't get Root early too often !



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Post by msp83 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:42 am

Horrendous start from England to an away Ashes series. The world is surely getting back to normal at last!

Ordinary batting from England that. Didn't seem like a 147 all out conditions, though demanding they surely were. Excellent from Cummins on his first innings as skipper, and Hazelwood was top class at the top with the ball, and outstanding in the field. Starc set the ball rolling, and Lyon looked quality in that first day effort.
Australia's batting isn't the strongest. Its quite top heavy as well. Warner, Labuschagne and Smith. Beyond which it isn't the strongest. So if England have a good morning session tomorrow, the match can be reopened as a contest. If couple of those top 4 get going, that will be it for a contest, with the rain the only thing that can save England.

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Post by msp83 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:47 am

As for the England team selection, they've done well to select a spinner, though distinctly average one he happens to be. But you do need a frontline in most conditions.
I kind of understand Anderson not playing. There were reports of some fitness concerns in the build-up, so no point risking him. But Broad is a tougher call, when combined with Anderson. Would have had him in for Woakes... Robinson isn't the worst possible option at 8 really, from what I followed of him in the summer. And I don't think other than Woakes' batting advantage, he doesn't have much on Broad with the ball, though Broad has had a rather tough time of it of late.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 08 Dec 2021, 12:04 pm

In a game expected to be curtailed by rain, if you are the relatively weaker side that would be happy to escape with a draw...
It was a tactical mistake by Eng to bat first
For this allows the game to the be finished in 3 innings ( or 3 and a bit) naturally, without Aus having to enforce follow-on

Had Eng put Aus in...Aus would have surely batted a full or quite long second inning...taking more time out of the game

I was disappointed by Malan...who I think has the back-foot game to do well in these conditions....trying to play his bread and butter steer thru point / 3rd man shot so early.
He needed to leave and play with straight bat early one

In general Eng batters aught to have left a lot more for the first 20 overs when ball was new.....Hameed did well but shame he couldn't reap reward of early hard work thru a bigge score

I am not sure if Starc is in the best of Rhythm or that he will last the series.
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Post by VTR Wed 08 Dec 2021, 12:28 pm

I am calling genius on leaving Broad and Anderson out. If you are going to get trounced by batting so woefully, no point them sending down even one over between them. They are now going to be fresh and fiiring to send the Aussies packing with the pink ball. Anyone doubting Silverwood's master planning will be sentenced to 5 years watching Simon Kerrigan's Test career on a continuous loop

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 12:38 pm

The toss - absolutely the right decision to bat first. A lot of hindsight merchants will criticise that decision...they're the same people who would have also criticised the decision if England had bowled first and Australia finished up 200/4. It was the right call, but England's flimsy batting didn't have the answers to Australia's quality, with the exception of Hameed who did what was required as an opener. Burns is abysmal at test level, but because England have run out of options his sub-32 average will sink ever further through this series - Bopara averages more than Burns at test level now. Bopara! Liked the little we saw of Stokes. Buttler's footwork was dodgy, but he played some nice ODI shots.

As I and others have mentioned before - no warm-ups, so this was always likely to happen. There's an argument that cricketers rarely get any 'off' time so they're always ready and prepared and don't need warm-ups like the old days. For test cricket that's total rubbish. It would be like a boxer returning to the ring after a long lay-off and fighting immediately for the title, rather than taking a few tune-up fights first. Two three-day first-class games are absolute minimums for a touring side if they want to have the best chance of winning a test series abroad. Is it any wonder that overseas test series wins are so low when the vast majority of such series go ahead with the away side having practically no preparation?

This is a strong Australian batting line-up, so Australian victory is almost assured from this position, the only real question is will it be by an innings? I've seen plenty of comments in the lead-up to this series saying things along the lines of 'this isn't a particularly strong Aussie batting line-up'. I'm baffled by such comments. Smith, Labuschagne and Warner have monstrous averages in Australia. This is an incredibly strong batting line-up. Even the tail can give it a bit of clout.

England's bowling is massively up against it in these conditions. As we saw yesterday, the ball will be doing very little past the 25 over mark. When that happens the medium-pacers will struggle and it'll be down to Wood's short spells and Leach's fingers. It will be a long day in the field, unless England do serious damage with the new ball. I expect Australia to score 350 as an absolute minimum, but I'm thinking they'll score 400+ and bat well into day three.

The weather won't be saving England, there's precious little extra rain around.

Oh and team selection, as already said, baffling. You can't leave out Anderson and Broad just to play Woakes, who averages 50 with the ball overseas. That's just silly.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 12:42 pm

VTR wrote:I am calling genius on leaving Broad and Anderson out. If you are going to get trounced by batting so woefully, no point them sending down even one over between them. They are now going to be fresh and fiiring to send the Aussies packing with the pink ball. Anyone doubting Silverwood's master planning will be sentenced to 5 years watching Simon Kerrigan's Test career on a continuous loop

Exists on YouTube. In full. Might give you nightmares, mind.

https://youtu.be/AA76uP6dYMw?t=5729

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Post by Afro Wed 08 Dec 2021, 1:40 pm

I was equally surprised on the bowling selection for England, but will reserve judgement on that until they've had a bowl. Its unfair to slam it as a poor decision until those selected have actually had a chance to do what they were selected for.

And whilst disappointing to wake up to such a low score, we have gone on about Englan's brittle batting and a reliance on Root (and Stokes as well before that). Its not like we are leaving out players who are crying out to be selected. Probably these players are the best options we appear to have, and the fact is that, bar a couple, they are being beaten by better players.

So no real surprises today, other than Broad not being selected and judgement on whether that was a good choice can wait until tomorrow
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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Dec 2021, 2:07 pm

I really don't see one of Anderson and Broad as an automatic selection in these conditions as others do I've got to say. Broad has had a poor 2021, is coming off injury and averages 37 in Australia. Great bowler in the right conditions but there's a reason that when he 2019 Ashes ended the prevailing wisdom was that, "we don't want to arrive at the Gabba in 2021 with Anderson and Broad opening the bowling".

I think it's a pretty good batting track as well so batting first doesn't bother me. Despite the overcast conditions the ball only swung at the very start and when bowled very full. Cummins likely brought himself on so early as he felt seam was the way to go. It seamed a bit when the ball was newer but not extravagantly and it didn't seam nearly as much after 25-30 overs as the ball softened which is exactly what you expect on D1 in Australia. All in all it looks a pitch with true bounce and good pace onto the bat.

A poor batting lineup against an excellent pace attack with predictable results basically.

I don't think Sibley is a good Test batsman at all. His lack of scoring shots and zero ability against spin looks pretty terminal without massive changes to his game. When the Kookaburra is going to get easier to play after blunting it for 25 overs I still think this is the tour where him soaking up deliveries without scoring much could have had some value though. Especially when our only good bats are in the middle order. Against a Dukes that swings through the innings and on seaming English wickets it's a different story as batting is almost always tough so blunting the new ball doesn't have the same effect. Here it could have been of use though.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 08 Dec 2021, 2:19 pm

king_carlos wrote:I really don't see one of Anderson and Broad as an automatic selection in these conditions as others do I've got to say. Broad has had a poor 2021, is coming off injury and averages 37 in Australia. Great bowler in the right conditions but there's a reason that when he 2019 Ashes ended the prevailing wisdom was that, "we don't want to arrive at the Gabba in 2021 with Anderson and Broad opening the bowling".

It's a fair point (as is Afro's r.e waiting to see if Woakes and Robinson steamroller the Aussies) but that whole argument was premised on the narrative around going down there with a battery of quicks to take on the Aussie pace unit. Archer, Stone and Wood being the chosen few. Clearly they were desperately unlucky to lose 2 of those bowlers but given that fact, and the fact they are not playing Jimmy, Broad had to come into the side. If we had Stone and Archer (or even one of them) then Broad wouldn't be in my side. But given the available options, I think it was a poor decision. I'll be the first to hold my hands up if Woakes takes a 5fer for not very many though.

Maybe it is my mindset, and it probably stems from my old career where leaving things to chance was absolutely the worst thing you can do, but this is what the selection feels like to me. A bit of a hunch and that doesn't feel right for T1.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 2:34 pm

Broad may average 37 in Australia, but Woakes averages 50 with a SR of 100. And Woakes' figures are only that good because of the D/N test he played in Adelaide - in the day tests that Woakes played in Australia last time his figures were 1/67, 0/46, 1/128, 2/72 and 1/62.

Broad actually has an excellent record at Brisbane with 12 wickets at a cost of 295 runs, working out at a 24.5 average.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 08 Dec 2021, 2:35 pm

king_carlos wrote:I really don't see one of Anderson and Broad as an automatic selection in these conditions as others do I've got to say. Broad has had a poor 2021, is coming off injury and averages 37 in Australia. Great bowler in the right conditions but there's a reason that when he 2019 Ashes ended the prevailing wisdom was that, "we don't want to arrive at the Gabba in 2021 with Anderson and Broad opening the bowling".

I think it's a pretty good batting track as well so batting first doesn't bother me. Despite the overcast conditions the ball only swung at the very start and when bowled very full. Cummins likely brought himself on so early as he felt seam was the way to go. It seamed a bit when the ball was newer but not extravagantly and it didn't seam nearly as much after 25-30 overs as the ball softened which is exactly what you expect on D1 in Australia. All in all it looks a pitch with true bounce and good pace onto the bat..

I've seen this idea Broad has had a poor year banded about a lot... has he actually?
He got 6 wickets at an average of 29 in the two NZ tests, only played one test in the summer vs India with meh returns...before then he played two tests in India when the pitches were farcical dustbowls and he barely bowled, and had one test in Sri Lanka where he actually got 3/20 off his 9 overs in the first dig, then bowled 17 overs for 14 runs (no wickets) in the 2nd dig to offer some control. I would hardly call that "poor" myself, he just got hurt in the India series after one meh test match and for some reason people have written him off (especially coming off a year in 2020 where he got 38 wickets in 8 games at an average of 14.76, and his performance sans Jimmy in the 2019 Ashes!).

I totally agree with the comments on here that we actually have to see how these bowlers go in this test match...but we're playing Chris Woakes instead of him, who's played three overseas test matches since the 2017 Ashes and has averages of 49.50 in Australia, 50.50 in New Zealand and 56.40 in South Africa. I don't think it's unfair the selectors (well it's basically Silverwood now) are copping some stick for this, I see very little actual logic/stats behind the decision.

And yes Broad's overall stuff in Australia isn't great...but he's picked up 12 wickets at an average of 24.58 in three games at the Gabba - the Gabba is the ground he's historically been good at down under, I think he's always enjoyed the extra niggle of the crowd here. If it was done with test match specific/ground situations in mind, I'd definitely think Woakes is more suited to the day nighter than Broad, and Broad more likely to do well here than Woakes.
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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 08 Dec 2021, 2:54 pm

Without Archer I don't think it really matters who is selected and even then he'd get misused as an enforcer. Robinson should go well in Australia, only Jamieson has a higher release point in test cricket so bowling a good length will reap rewards. I can only imagine though he'll get misused and get asked to bowl short, the most over rated tactic in cricket.

I see Wood struggling to make any real impact, he's too skiddy for these pitches.

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Post by VTR Wed 08 Dec 2021, 5:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:
VTR wrote:I am calling genius on leaving Broad and Anderson out. If you are going to get trounced by batting so woefully, no point them sending down even one over between them. They are now going to be fresh and fiiring to send the Aussies packing with the pink ball. Anyone doubting Silverwood's master planning will be sentenced to 5 years watching Simon Kerrigan's Test career on a continuous loop

Exists on YouTube. In full. Might give you nightmares, mind.

https://youtu.be/AA76uP6dYMw?t=5729

I am actually going to watch it, at least its part of an Ashes test we didn't lose Very Happy

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Post by Jeff Navarro Wed 08 Dec 2021, 5:57 pm

I got drawn into the hype so stayed up to watch the first hour of the match. England looked a bit off the boil.
Australian bowlers looked pretty impressive, absolute man mountains as well.
Why’s Bairstow not playing? He can give it a smash. My kind of player.

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Post by VTR Wed 08 Dec 2021, 6:44 pm

Jeff Navarro wrote:I got drawn into the hype so stayed up to watch the first hour of the match. England looked a bit off the boil.
Australian bowlers looked pretty impressive, absolute man mountains as well.
Why’s Bairstow not playing? He can give it a smash. My kind of player.

I guess he's not playing because sadly it's his stumps that tend to get smashed nowadays, rather than the ball

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Dec 2021, 10:21 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I really don't see one of Anderson and Broad as an automatic selection in these conditions as others do I've got to say. Broad has had a poor 2021, is coming off injury and averages 37 in Australia. Great bowler in the right conditions but there's a reason that when he 2019 Ashes ended the prevailing wisdom was that, "we don't want to arrive at the Gabba in 2021 with Anderson and Broad opening the bowling".

I think it's a pretty good batting track as well so batting first doesn't bother me. Despite the overcast conditions the ball only swung at the very start and when bowled very full. Cummins likely brought himself on so early as he felt seam was the way to go. It seamed a bit when the ball was newer but not extravagantly and it didn't seam nearly as much after 25-30 overs as the ball softened which is exactly what you expect on D1 in Australia. All in all it looks a pitch with true bounce and good pace onto the bat..

I've seen this idea Broad has had a poor year banded about a lot... has he actually?
He got 6 wickets at an average of 29 in the two NZ tests, only played one test in the summer vs India with meh returns...before then he played two tests in India when the pitches were farcical dustbowls and he barely bowled, and had one test in Sri Lanka where he actually got 3/20 off his 9 overs in the first dig, then bowled 17 overs for 14 runs (no wickets) in the 2nd dig to offer some control. I would hardly call that "poor" myself, he just got hurt in the India series after one meh test match and for some reason people have written him off (especially coming off a year in 2020 where he got 38 wickets in 8 games at an average of 14.76, and his performance sans Jimmy in the 2019 Ashes!).

I totally agree with the comments on here that we actually have to see how these bowlers go in this test match...but we're playing Chris Woakes instead of him, who's played three overseas test matches since the 2017 Ashes and has averages of 49.50 in Australia, 50.50 in New Zealand and 56.40 in South Africa. I don't think it's unfair the selectors (well it's basically Silverwood now) are copping some stick for this, I see very little actual logic/stats behind the decision.

And yes Broad's overall stuff in Australia isn't great...but he's picked up 12 wickets at an average of 24.58 in three games at the Gabba - the Gabba is the ground he's historically been good at down under, I think he's always enjoyed the extra niggle of the crowd here. If it was done with test match specific/ground situations in mind, I'd definitely think Woakes is more suited to the day nighter than Broad, and Broad more likely to do well here than Woakes.
Important to look at the other bowlers in those games though I think.

T2 in India Stone took 4 wickets, Sharma 3, Siraj 1 so the other seamers didn't go unrewarded even if it was a bunsen. T1 vs NZ Broad had the second worst match figures of a seamer in the game (CdG went wicketless albeit economically for the worst). In his Test against India in the summer Broad and Surran were the seamers who found no joy in a game where the other seamers on show bowled well.

T2 vs NZ was excellent and he did his job well in his Test in Sri Lanka. The D/N 3rd Test in India where the pink ball just went through the surface is little point taking anything from I grant you.

It all adds up to one good game and a solid game in 6 Tests though. So not a good year thus far.

Then there is factoring in his age and need to look after his body. As said in a previous post between Wood, Anderson and Broad we have an out and out pace bowler that needs looking after like most pace bowlers do, then two fast-medium seamers that now need looking after like most pace bowlers do. It wouldn't surprise me if they were simply reticent about having Wood and Broad in the same side whilst Stokes has so little bowling in him.

Whilst Woakes has had injuries this year I still think given his age he is the bowler I'd back to bowl long, economical spells in the heat over Broad at the respective stages in their career.

My prediction would be that Wood's rest will come in the D/N Tests with Broad and Anderson more likely to be risked there. Given how batsman have fared in the pink ball games it may not be one where long spells aren't as much of a concern!

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Dec 2021, 10:25 pm

All in all it will be the batting not bowling that will have lost this game without an outstanding fightback though.

I share the opinion of many that Robinson has the tools to bowl very well here. His use of the wobble seam is excellent, his release point high and he's very accurate. A lot of similarities to Hazlewood there.

England will need Wood to be on the money early as well, then likely need Woakes to bowl very well to the left-handers. Woakes is usually very good with his line and length to lefties from over and around the wicket so he does have the capacity to challenge them early.

Without early wickets though the ball will soften and England could be in a world of hurt.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 10:46 pm

Yes, for England to get back in the game they need at least three (maybe four) wickets in the opening 15/20 overs. Harris is a weakness and Warner is under some pressure, England have to exploit that and get Smith and Labuschagne in against the new ball. Will be interesting to see how much, if at all, Stokes bowls on his return.

30 minute early start today, don't get caught out!

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Post by compelling and rich Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:34 pm

Just turned it on, got really excited seeing 0-1. Then realised it’s because the Aussies do things backwards

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:35 pm

compelling and rich wrote:Just turned it on, got really excited seeing 0-1. Then realised it’s because the Aussies do things backwards

Blimey, 0/4 after the first over!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:53 pm

What time does the rain start?
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Post by compelling and rich Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:53 pm

Robinson deserve that, had Harris in trouble from ball 1

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:56 pm

Very good indeed from Robinson. He's settled on the right length almost immediately which is such a valuable skill.

Now they need that second wicket to get at Smith early.

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