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Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

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Jeff Navarro
msp83
Dolphin Ziggler
compelling and rich
James100
dummy_half
KP_fan
Gooseberry
Afro
Pal Joey
VTR
Soul Requiem
king_carlos
GSC
alfie
Mind the windows Tino.
Duty281
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 14 Oct 2021, 9:46 am

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a new thread for the winter cricket of 2021 that we (covid depending) have ahead of us. Obviously the World T20, but that has it's own thread...

The main event being the Ashes, with the dates below

Men's Ashes schedule
First Test: 8-12 December - Gabba, Brisbane (00:00 GMT)
Second Test: 16-20 December - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (d/n - 04:00 GMT)
Third Test: 26-30 December - MCG, Melbourne (23:30 GMT, 25 December)
Fourth Test: 5-9 January - SCG, Sydney (23:30 GMT, 4 January)
Fifth Test: 14-18 January - Optus Stadium, Perth (02:30 GMT) (subject to change)

Women's Ashes schedule
Test: 27-30 January - Manuka Oval, Canberra (23:00 GMT, 26 January)
First T20: 4 February - North Sydney Oval, Sydney (08:10 GMT)
Second T20: 6 February - North Sydney Oval, Sydney (08:10 GMT)
Third T20: 10 February - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (08:10 GMT)
First ODl: 13 February - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (23:05 GMT, 12 February)
Second ODl: 16 February - Junction Oval, Melbourne (23:05 GMT, 15 February)
Third ODI: 19 February - Junction Oval, Melbourne (23:05 GMT, 18 February)

India have a busy winter, with New Zealand touring in November/December and then India head to South Africa for the boxing day test/January.
There's an interesting test series between Bangladesh and Pakistan in Bangladesh in Nov/Dec, which should be an entertaining watch. Unfortunately I don't see much cricket on the schedule for Pakistan/Sri Lanka (unless I am missing something!)
A few others on the future tours programme, but not confirmed yet as far as I see...
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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:29 am

Ah there it goes...

Buttler's long resistance ends as he steps back on his stumps of all the wretched ways to get out Sad

Somehow can't see Broad and Anderson lasting 24 overs...

My wife will be happy - I've been telling her for a couple of hours it won't be long before she can watch something else on TV Smile

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Post by GSC Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:33 am

Fought hard, showed some spirit but the end is probably close. Shouldn't and probably won't affect selections for the next game though
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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:33 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
alfie wrote:

England keep searching but they just haven't replaced Strauss in nine years or Cook in three.


Malan and Root are both doing ok as openers this series.

Might as well get them to actually open then , maybe ? Could pick a couple more wicket keepers and bowlers for the late order...

Might be a problem finding another decent number three Smile

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:34 am

Even by England’s standards, I didn’t see a hit wicket being the way that vigil ended

They never cease to amaze
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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:40 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Even by England’s standards, I didn’t see a hit wicket being the way that vigil ended

They never cease to amaze

Was going to happen one way or another eventually. Bit unusual but not unique.
Remember Warne did the same at Edgbaston in 2005 . That was the ninth wicket too - though they were hoping to steal a win rather than a draw.

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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:45 am

All over ! Five for Richardson clap Filled in pretty well today for the missing regulars...

Two- nil to Australia... Well earned result again. Be a brave call to suggest England can get one back next week but perhaps today's efforts will give them a little bit of a lift - hopefully enough to stop them melting down completely.



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Post by GSC Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:46 am

Professional job in the end from Australia even if England made them work for it on the last day. Just a vast gulf in quality
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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:51 am

alfie wrote:Unfortunately England recently seem incapable of putting those large totals on the board. Not that I am too surprised. In Australia the start tends to be important and if both openers are out in the first few overs consistently the chances of making big runs are not good.

England keep searching but they just haven't replaced Strauss in nine years or Cook in three.

The last top 3 batsman we had that were successful long term were Strauss, Cook and Trott.

Strauss made his CC debut in 1998. Cook and Trott both debuted in 2003 for Middlesex and Warwickshire respectively. So it's nearly 2 decades since our last successful top 3 batsman debuted in the CC. 

Root is the last good Test batsman we've produced and he debuted in the Championship in 2011. Over a decade.

During abysmal tours I often get frustrated with attention being diverted away from poorly performing players to coaching, captaincy and county cricket. The CC has to change though when we are at a stage where the Test team has one batsman who debuted over a decade ago.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:51 am

Massive fan of Broad and Anderson having more double digit partnerships in one game than the England openers have had in the two so far
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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:53 am

It took longer than expected but the result was set in stone after England's first innings collapse. Again.

This was an Australian team without Cummins and Hazlewood as well.

It feels like a whitewash coming.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:53 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Massive fan of Broad and Anderson having more double digit partnerships in one game than the England openers have had in the two so far

Laugh Laugh

Starc has the 7th most runs in the series. He also has one more than Burns and Harris combined.

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Post by GSC Mon 20 Dec 2021, 10:04 am

England don't have 400 runs combined in their first innings while Australia have gone past 400 in both of theirs. We don't just give ourselves a chance to even be in the game against a quality lineup
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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 10:46 am

KP_fan wrote:This game....I hope for their own morale Eng bat two more sessions...and Stokes/Butler get runs...Pope I doubt can.....
In the ability to bat out one more session solidly could have earned Eng a draw

Next Game.....
Bairstow for Pope
Livingstone for Robinson

All my wishes & desires came true
It was heartening to see Eng fight....and realize that even if winning is still far,,,,batting with a bit more application, they are within the realms of draw
This realization may ensure the series remains alive & competitive

With English spinners having taken 5 wickets and ball tuning almost like India and with bounce
Bringing a spinner back is inevitable and one who could bat...and hence if Livingstone is not feasible then Bess will have to play (for Robinson)
Else they could play Lawrence  for Pope who will be the 3rd part time spinner in the 11
Must say...Pope has fully and absolutely lived up to my expectations

Bottomline---the spinners must be handy with the bat
How Eng would be wishing Moeen was in the squad
Smile
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Post by JDizzle Mon 20 Dec 2021, 10:48 am

If only Moeen with his batting average of 20 and bowling average of 115 in Australia was available!

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Post by king_carlos Mon 20 Dec 2021, 10:51 am

JDizzle wrote:If only Moeen with his batting average of 20 and bowling average of 115 in Australia was available!
Now now JD. Let's not let facts get in the way of KP_f being a cricketing soothsayer.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 20 Dec 2021, 11:01 am

Although Buttler got out in a slightly embarrassing way I suspect him putting in Englands longest innings of the series so far will have answered any questions the leadership may have had about his place in the next test. England do need to look back to that tour to SA and the "lets just concentrate on staying in" basics of test batting, then worry about scoring runs. Not that they have exactly been overly aggressive or scoring freely prior to getting out, but they do need some top order players to hang in a bit longer and stop the one wicket turning onto 4 in the same session.

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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 11:07 am

If they want a spinner for Melbourne ; and assuming they don't want to retain Woakes at eight (well though he batted today) surely they have to take a chance on Bess ? All those Aussie left handers ; and he hasn't had the recent experience of being Warnered all over and out of the Gabba...Plus he can handle a bat.
I get that this would be a gamble. But turning back to Leach after his last outing would be one too. You have a squad of players : use them. Can't do any worse.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 20 Dec 2021, 11:22 am

Gooseberry wrote:Although Buttler got out in a slightly embarrassing way I suspect him putting in Englands longest innings of the series so far will have answered any questions the leadership may have had about his place in the next test. England do need to look back to that tour to SA and the "lets just concentrate on staying in" basics of test batting, then worry about  scoring runs. Not that they have exactly been overly aggressive or scoring freely prior to getting out, but they do need some top order players to hang in a bit longer and stop the one wicket turning onto 4 in the same session.

The top order has been a problem but the middle lower order is the bigger issue; Malan and Root have got the team into a decent position twice now and once one is out it's basically all out. Buttler did well to hang around today but his abject display in the first innings had already done the damage; he Pope and Stokes just aren't scoring enough.

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:05 pm

ENGLAND DITCH POPE - No, not a headline from nearly 500 years ago but, sadly, a possible and likely exclusion for the Melbourne Test.

I think they'll stick with the openers for at least one more Test. I was rather hoping Hameed would NOT be recalled to the side last summer as I thought they would then take him to Australia and he would find it tough there. All that has come to pass...

I think 5-0 is a real possibility, now. Even 4-0 would probably be a good result for England.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:15 pm

JDizzle wrote:If only Moeen with his batting average of 20 and bowling average of 115 in Australia was available!


Root averaging 32 for his 4 wickst in Aus this time...and he averaged 85 before this in Aus with ball
Malan averaging 16 for his 2 wickts in Aus this time and averaged infinity before this Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f601

Both together averaging 27 for 6 wickets in Aus this time.
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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:34 pm

KP_fan wrote:
JDizzle wrote:If only Moeen with his batting average of 20 and bowling average of 115 in Australia was available!


Root averaging 32 for his 4 wickst in Aus this time...and he averaged 85 before this in Aus with ball
Malan averaging 16 for his 2 wickts in Aus this time and averaged infinity before this Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f601

Both together averaging 27 for 6 wickets in Aus this time.

Ah if only that stat wasn't just a freak of circumstances ! We could pick about eight batsmen and three pace bowlers and just let Joe and Dawid spin the Aussies to destruction ...

Probably still wouldn't make 300 though Smile

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Post by alfie Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:36 pm

Sorry about that last Cool It's late here : promise I will have some rather more thoughtful and helpful suggestions tomorrow...

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Post by JDizzle Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:36 pm

I was thinking Malan could be a frontline spin option as Labuschagne smashed a long hop to deep mid wicket 450 ahead.

I suppose Bess could play - he might be a better option than Leach with the left handers in the Aussie side. But that does some time get overplayed. Like in the T20 Semi when NZ brought Phillips and his off spin on because England had two left handers in and he got smashed. They still have to be good! Bess would allow England to justify dropping Woakes as Bess could bat 8 though - even if his batting isn’t near Woakes.

Batting wise… tough. I think Crawley and Lawrence have to come in for Burns and Pope. And just a note on wanting flatter pitches in the CC which seems to be the new thing to solve England’s batting woes. Pope and Burns play on the flattest pitch the country, and haven’t cracked international cricket. It’s runs deeper.

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Post by VTR Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:16 pm

Team for the next Test then:

Vaughan
Atherton (1990 version)
Malan
Root
Livingstone
Lawrence
Foakes (best keeper to spinners)
Moeen
Dawson
Bess
Leach

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:26 pm

You would have thought that after the year Root's had with the bat that he might have made the BBC SPOTY shortlist.

Not only has he scored profusely, he's done it against top-quality opposition and with little support from a poor batting line-up.

Begs the question about just how good some players who play in fine sides really are. If you're constantly coming in at 150 for two after the openers have done all the hard work, you're clearly more likely to have success than the guy who constantly has to trail in at 20 for two (or even worse).

How well would, say, Lyon do if he wasn't surrounded by top-quality seam bowlers? Would, say, Pope have already made some high scores in Test cricket if he'd been part of much-stronger batting line-ups?

Lara and Tendulkar were seen, at the time, as probably the two best batsmen. They were both great players but Lara's runs in the second-half of his career were made in a poor Windies side which, IMHO, gives him the nod over Sachin.

Similarly you could make the case for Murali being greater than Warne and, although sometimes helped by Vaas, he had to do much of the heavy lifting himself.

Going further back you could argue that Alec Bedser was one of England's greatest bowlers in that he had to carry the attack virtually single-handed in the immediate post-war years.

Cream normally rises to the top in sport but in team games it does help if you have top-quality team mates.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:32 pm

VTR wrote:Team for the next Test then:

Vaughan
Atherton (1990 version)
Malan
Root
Livingstone
Lawrence
Foakes (best keeper to spinners)
Moeen
Dawson
Bess
Leach

Probably bin off Dawson and have Pietersen instead.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:35 pm

VTR wrote:Team for the next Test then:

Vaughan (Too racist*)
Atherton (1990 version) (Cheat)
Malan (agree)
Root (agree)
Livingstone (averages minus 36 in CC)
Lawrence (Didn't say hello to my son at the Lords test last summer when he was walking round the outfield - true story)
Foakes (best keeper to spinners) (agree, especially if Stokes and Woakes are dropped. We need an 'kes' in the side at all times)
Moeen (playing 10 ball an innings franchise cricket in Peru)
Dawson (didn't even know Matt played cricket)
Bess (can't bowl to right handers)
Leach (Nightwatchman - otherwise known as no 3 batter)

I only agree with 3 selections, VTR. The rest are just nonsense.

*allegedly

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:54 pm

Some resistance then, more than expected, but like the first test it came when the test was already lost. As said by others, we need to see Buttler digging in when the game is still alive. Mind you, Buttler's innings should have ended at 0.

Right 2-0 after two tests. No surprise and England, equally unsurprisingly, have never come back from 2-0 down to win an Ashes series. Ever.

The main problem is the batting - 147, 297, 236 and 192 ao. You'd struggle to win a series in England with those scores, never mind on the beautiful batting decks of Australia. Malan (47) and Root (44) are the only ones averaging over 40 with the bat for England in this series. But even they are enduring a problem in that they've scored two fifties each but not gone on to score tons - 76 and 63 don't win tests in Australia, you need big centuries.

The rest of the batting is a shambles. Buttler's averaging 22, Stokes 16, Hameed 15, Burns 13 and Pope 12. You wouldn't beat Zimbabwe with those averages, never mind this Australian team.

For my money it's time to drop Pope, who looks lost, and replace him with Lawrence who's averaging a dizzying 27 in tests this year. Be still, my restless heart. But Crawley can't come in because the last time he was seen in test cricket he looked as though he needed advice on which end of the bat to hold. I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

The bowling is mostly fine, I think. Unlike some I thought Anderson was decent with the new ball in the first innings and just didn't get much reward. Robinson has been class so far. Woakes' innings has, alas, probably guaranteed his selection for the MCG, but his bowling figures currently read 3/228 with an economy of 3.63. I don't know about the spinners, I'd like England to play one but I'm not sure Leach or Bess are good enough. For the next test I'd go:

Burns; Hameed; Malan; Root; Stokes; Lawrence; Foakes*; Robinson; Wood; Leach; Anderson.

*If he can be called up, not sure he can.

However I'm expecting:

Burns; Hameed; Malan; Root; Stokes; Pope; Buttler; Woakes; Robinson; Wood; Anderson/Broad.

Rather pointless stat I read the other day was that Broad has got the second most test ducks in test history. He's currently on 38, trailing Walsh on 43. Will he have time to get there?

Australia look in fine shape. Cummins and Hazlewood well rested and poised to lead a cricketing massacre at the MCG. Only concern in their selection is Harris who's averaging an English-like 13 with the bat. They should bring Khawaja in to open. Smith, also, is only averaging 37 with the bat so far this series and has made just one good score of 93 - that nearly represents a crisis for him, but sadly means he's due for 150+ in the next test. Green has done nothing with the bat, but has taken 5/62 with the ball (Root being two of those dismissals) and is leading the bowling averages for Australia with a truly impressive economy. He's having a fine series.

2-0 down but, don't forget, the series is still alive. Believe?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:Some resistance then, more than expected, but like the first test it came when the test was already lost. As said by others, we need to see Buttler digging in when the game is still alive. Mind you, Buttler's innings should have ended at 0.

Right 2-0 after two tests. No surprise and England, equally unsurprisingly, have never come back from 2-0 down to win an Ashes series. Ever.

The main problem is the batting - 147, 297, 236 and 192 ao. You'd struggle to win a series in England with those scores, never mind on the beautiful batting decks of Australia. Malan (47) and Root (44) are the only ones averaging over 40 with the bat for England in this series. But even they are enduring a problem in that they've scored two fifties each but not gone on to score tons - 76 and 63 don't win tests in Australia, you need big centuries.

The rest of the batting is a shambles. Buttler's averaging 22, Stokes 16, Hameed 15, Burns 13 and Pope 12. You wouldn't beat Zimbabwe with those averages, never mind this Australian team.

For my money it's time to drop Pope, who looks lost, and replace him with Lawrence who's averaging a dizzying 27 in tests this year. Be still, my restless heart. But Crawley can't come in because the last time he was seen in test cricket he looked as though he needed advice on which end of the bat to hold. I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

The bowling is mostly fine, I think. Unlike some I thought Anderson was decent with the new ball in the first innings and just didn't get much reward. Robinson has been class so far. Woakes' innings has, alas, probably guaranteed his selection for the MCG, but his bowling figures currently read 3/228 with an economy of 3.63. I don't know about the spinners, I'd like England to play one but I'm not sure Leach or Bess are good enough. For the next test I'd go:

Burns; Hameed; Malan; Root; Stokes; Lawrence; Foakes*; Robinson; Wood; Leach; Anderson.

*If he can be called up, not sure he can.

However I'm expecting:

Burns; Hameed; Malan; Root; Stokes; Pope; Buttler; Woakes; Robinson; Wood; Anderson/Broad.

Rather pointless stat I read the other day was that Broad has got the second most test ducks in test history. He's currently on 38, trailing Walsh on 43. Will he have time to get there?

Australia look in fine shape. Cummins and Hazlewood well rested and poised to lead a cricketing massacre at the MCG. Only concern in their selection is Harris who's averaging an English-like 13 with the bat. They should bring Khawaja in to open. Smith, also, is only averaging 37 with the bat so far this series and has made just one good score of 93 - that nearly represents a crisis for him, but sadly means he's due for 150+ in the next test. Green has done nothing with the bat, but has taken 5/62 with the ball (Root being two of those dismissals) and is leading the bowling averages for Australia with a truly impressive economy. He's having a fine series.

2-0 down but, don't forget, the series is still alive. Believe?

No.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:11 pm

How dare you.

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Post by GSC Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:17 pm

Is it too late to get Darren Stevens over to Aus
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:19 pm

GSC wrote:Is it too late to get Darren Stevens over to Aus

I'd take Shakin' Stevens at this point.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by JDizzle Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:25 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
GSC wrote:Is it too late to get Darren Stevens over to Aus

I'd take Shakin' Stevens at this point.

Lovely stuff.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm

Foakes returned home with the rest of the Lions squad who didn't have BBL deals, so he isn't available for selection
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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm

Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608

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Post by VTR Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:46 pm

Throw enough ideas and predictions out there and some will come true!

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:48 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Foakes returned home with the rest of the Lions squad who didn't have BBL deals, so he isn't available for selection

Thought so, thanks.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:49 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 20 Dec 2021, 3:11 pm

GSC wrote:Is it too late to get Darren Stevens over to Aus

The bloke from the Bewitched sitcom? Might need his wife as well.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 20 Dec 2021, 3:13 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


Did you just refer to yourself in the third person?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

Ali is maligned even in retirement
I see though the reason though.....he is a ghost who refuses  to die & there is a 10% chance (fear) he might be recalled out of retirement in the interest of English cricket Smile


Last edited by KP_fan on Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:14 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


Did you just refer to yourself in the third person?

Illesim is in certain circumstances an effective voluntary means to make a point
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Post by msp83 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:20 pm

So England managed to delay the unavoidable for that bit. Woakes managed some runs, Buttler held an end together for a very long time batting in a style counter to his usual one. But didn't mean much. The biggest positive perhaps for them is that Ollie Pope didn't get a flashy 50 that would have had him booked in for the next year or so. He's from the Ramprakash/Hick league, the guy in his current version, isn't cut out for test cricket. Like a Stuart Broad prior to being Aaroned, he can play some lovely shots, on rare days it would all come together for sustained period to put up a substantial score. You'd take that gladly from the likes of Ravichandran Ashwin or a Kyle Jamieson. Perhaps even Pat Cummins and Mitchell Starc though Starc is more like giving it a good thumping, like Southee. But Pope can't be a top 6 test batter, when he doesn't offer anything with the ball. The only way they can play him with his possible upper range being about averaging early 30s, is by making him keep wicket. Even there, he's not an improvement on Buttler and Bairstow, or Foakes for that matter. Rather than making the same mistake they did with Ramprakash, the guy played more than 50 tests didn't he? England would do well to move on. Lawrence at least, can offer some piechucking so that they wouldn't have to go to their latest, newly minted offspinner, Oliver Robinson that often!
People would still want to pretend to undervalue Moeen Ali, but yet again, Leach, and the Un-Playable Bess, continue to show up the value he brought to this team. Moeen, better with the bat than the likes of Pope, and better with the ball than both Leach who can only bowl against right-handers in the 2nd innings on turning tracks, and Bess who struggles to even land 50 percent of his deliveries!
But now that he's happily retired from England test setup, we can only wish...

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:23 pm

KP_fan wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


Did you just refer to yourself in the third person?

Illesim is in certain circumstances an effective voluntary means to make a point

Did you know that term is named after Ray Illingworth?

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:26 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

Ali is maligned even in retirement
I see though the reason though.....he is a ghost who refuses  to die & there is a 10% chance (fear) he might be recalled out of retirement in the interest of English cricket Smile

Pointing out that Moeen averaged 50 with the ball* and 17 with the bat in three tests v India isn't maligning them, it's just a fair criticism. No chance that Moeen returns to the test setup.

*I suppose that's better than the 115 he averaged with the ball during the last series he played in Australia, mind.

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Post by msp83 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 6:58 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

Ali is maligned even in retirement
I see though the reason though.....he is a ghost who refuses  to die & there is a 10% chance (fear) he might be recalled out of retirement in the interest of English cricket Smile

Pointing out that Moeen averaged 50 with the ball* and 17 with the bat in three tests v India isn't maligning them, it's just a fair criticism. No chance that Moeen returns to the test setup.

*I suppose that's better than the 115 he averaged with the ball during the last series he played in Australia, mind.

Moeen's not coming back to test cricket, he's done in this format. But Leach and Bess, seemingly the best available spinners for England currently, are on a continuous mission to prove how good a bowler Moeen was... And he really was miles better than the 2.
At this point, think England's best spin option is Joe Root. But how long can he sustain the kind of bowling load that he took on in this test? With him being the only world class batter in the side, with him now into his 30s, can Root now turn himself into a batting all-rounder delivering 15-20 overs per innings on a regular basis? They have to get Lawrence in, He, Pope, Bairstow, there is not much difference in them as batters, they all would be capable of playing a fine test innings now and then with a lot of inconsistency in between, but Lawrence can at least bowl some parttime spin. Only with the point of saving Root, they have to play Lawrence, or Livingston later on...
Any chance Adil Rashid can be talked into yet another test return?
Scott Borthwick is still playing First Class cricket isn't he?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 7:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

Ali is maligned even in retirement
I see though the reason though.....he is a ghost who refuses  to die & there is a 10% chance (fear) he might be recalled out of retirement in the interest of English cricket Smile

Pointing out that Moeen averaged 50 with the ball* and 17 with the bat in three tests v India isn't maligning them, it's just a fair criticism. No chance that Moeen returns to the test setup.

*I suppose that's better than the 115 he averaged with the ball during the last series he played in Australia, mind.


M. Ali last played in India, when Eng last played in India in a solitary test and boy how he performed?
This is what he did Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f447  Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f64a
Highest wkt taker for Eng in 1st inning
Highest wicket taker for Eng in 2nd inning
Highest wicket taker for Eng with an 8-fer in the match
Highest wkt taker for the match
Highest cumulative runs for Eng in that match
Highest inning scorer for Eng in one of the innings
Highest no. of Sixes by an batsman in the match
More Sixes than all English batting put together in entire match

Bess & that 'ollypop won't achieve that in their entire careers put together
and yet M.Ali was dumped in the next game
and his "maligner" will not look at the aforesaid solitary return game he was accorded in India .....but will cut& spin stats to a predefined conclusion
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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 7:52 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

Ali is maligned even in retirement
I see though the reason though.....he is a ghost who refuses  to die & there is a 10% chance (fear) he might be recalled out of retirement in the interest of English cricket Smile

Pointing out that Moeen averaged 50 with the ball* and 17 with the bat in three tests v India isn't maligning them, it's just a fair criticism. No chance that Moeen returns to the test setup.

*I suppose that's better than the 115 he averaged with the ball during the last series he played in Australia, mind.


M. Ali last played in India, when Eng last played in India in a solitary test and boy how he performed?
This is what he did Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f447  Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f64a
Highest wkt taker for Eng in 1st inning
Highest wicket taker for Eng in 2nd inning
Highest wicket taker for Eng with an 8-fer in the match
Highest wkt taker for the match
Highest cumulative runs for Eng in that match
Highest inning scorer for Eng in one of the innings
Highest no. of Sixes by an batsman in the match
More Sixes than all English batting put together in entire match

Bess & that 'ollypop won't achieve that in their entire careers put together
and yet M.Ali was dumped in the next game
and his "maligner" will not look at the aforesaid solitary return game he was accorded in India .....but will cut& spin stats to a predefined conclusion

You mean like what you're doing? Pointing out how he did in one test in Chennai is a pointless analysis, especially as he just battered some runs towards the end when the game was already over as a contest (he scored 6 in the first innings when making a score actually mattered).

Moeen's time has passed, kindly accept it. He has with the timely good grace we expect of him.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 7:59 pm

msp83 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty wrote: I enjoy reading KP_fan's lunatic ideas - I still remember with great fondness the time he said Cook should be recalled for the 2019 ODI World Cup - but Livingstone is never, ever the answer. And neither is Moeen.

KPF's ideas worry some people, cause often times Eng team managements and selectors with greater wisdom replicate those ideas Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread - Page 19 1f608


That's true, like your idea for Moeen's selection v India in the summer was replicated by the England management, and the selection turned out to be the disaster most of us thought it would be.

Ali is maligned even in retirement
I see though the reason though.....he is a ghost who refuses  to die & there is a 10% chance (fear) he might be recalled out of retirement in the interest of English cricket Smile

Pointing out that Moeen averaged 50 with the ball* and 17 with the bat in three tests v India isn't maligning them, it's just a fair criticism. No chance that Moeen returns to the test setup.

*I suppose that's better than the 115 he averaged with the ball during the last series he played in Australia, mind.

Moeen's not coming back to test cricket, he's done in this format. But Leach and Bess, seemingly the best available spinners for England currently, are on a continuous mission to prove how good a bowler Moeen was... And he really was miles better than the 2.
At this point, think England's best spin option is Joe Root. But how long can he sustain the kind of bowling load that he took on in this test? With him being the only world class batter in the side, with him now into his 30s, can Root now turn himself into a batting all-rounder delivering 15-20 overs per innings on a regular basis? They have to get Lawrence in, He, Pope, Bairstow, there is not much difference in them as batters, they all would be capable of playing a fine test innings now and then with a lot of inconsistency in between, but Lawrence can at least bowl some parttime spin. Only with the point of saving Root, they have to play Lawrence, or Livingston later on...
Any chance Adil Rashid can be talked into yet another  test return?
Scott Borthwick is still playing First Class cricket isn't he?

No, Leach and Bess are better spinners than Moeen, by quite a bit. Bess is still improving and the best days are yet to come, Leach had a decent return in the sub-continent last winter but has been hindered by the selectors as to future development.

I like Moeen, but his test ability has been vastly inflated by some. He had a few good series with the ball in his career (notably v South Africa in 2017), but he ended up with a test bowling average of near 37 for a reason.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 20 Dec 2021, 8:02 pm

Duty wrote:how he did in one test in Chennai is a pointless analysis, especially as he just battered some runs towards the end when the game was already over as a contest (he scored 6 in the first innings when making a score actually mattered).

1.The maligners were maligning him on every day of that test too when each day he was emerging Eng's best

2. The concept of Dead runs doesn't apply to Ollypope and many others I see...but only to M. Ali and now to Butler also I am beginning to see
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