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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Pal Joey
Mind the windows Tino.
superflyweight
ralphjohn69
westisbest
McLaren
incontinentia
Soul Requiem
JuliusHMarx
dynamark
beninho
super_realist
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Post by super_realist Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:42 am

incontinentia wrote:
super_realist wrote:Will Alec Baldwin go to jail for the manslaughter of that lady on the filmset under American law or is it considered an industrial accident?
Doesnt seem like he's in trouble just yet. How do you kill someone with a prop gun that fires blanks?

Edit: https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/prop-gun-using-blanks-still-052227936.html

"As for the question of criminal responsibility, that’s for law enforcement to investigate. But it must be noted that in the vast majority of cases, the person who pulled the trigger wasn’t remotely at fault. They were handed a prop and assured it would function normally — and it didn’t."

Guns dont kill people, rappers do.

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Post by beninho Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:59 am

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:I'm guessing they don't give 2 shats what you think. Unless you go there, and accepted it anyway.

I actually think a vast majority are woke, as we shoukd be, but a small minority are extremely woke.  

No, most people are normal, they dont go out of their  way to use absurd language  amd substitute words so they can potentially protect a miniscule % of the population who hasnt even asked for such changes in the first place.

The ironic thing is its actually  middle class white people dictating this and telling minorities which words they should be offended by.

If you, are speaking with someone from a minority group including lgbtq+, or even anyone, do you moderate your language so as not to offend them?

Not in the terms that youd like me to.
I wouldnt for example use the term "birthing parent" as thats an absurd label.

First of all, i dont even know what would "offend" them without asking would I? I would I (or you) know that they wouldn't find the term "birthing parent" derogatory, demeaning or offensive?

Also, if someone is inadvertedly "offended" by sometbing I say, and i haven't deliberatley been provocative or deliberately inflammatory then their offence is their problem. I can correct it in future, but its just offence and you dont have a right to not be offended, so if I make a remark that I didnt know or coukdnt possibly have any idea it  "might offend" then its not really my fault, as another person from the same minority group probably wouldn't be offended. Whether they are offended is their own subjective reaction, (and before you get your usual comprehension mix up im not talking about N words or calling someone a P as that is clearly defined)

Do you want me to carry around a clipboard of sanctioned and acceptable terms?

So you do moderate your language so as not to offend. I'm assuming you wouldn't use certain derogatory words for lgbtq+ people in a first conversation with someone, or would hope not.

Is it really a big thing that companies may want to not set out to upset or offend a member of staff, isn't that just good behaviour? And isn't an lgbtq+ charity a good group to give that advice, obviously companies can pick and choose what they do.



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Post by dynamark Fri 22 Oct 2021, 10:34 am

Im told there are blanks which do emit a shell and prop blanks which just fire out the powder.Strange thing why was he pointing it at crew members ?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri 22 Oct 2021, 11:14 am

dynamark wrote:Im told there are blanks which do emit a shell and prop blanks which just fire out the powder.Strange thing why was he pointing it at crew members ?

Possibly they were behind the camera and he was aiming at/near the camera.

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Post by super_realist Fri 22 Oct 2021, 12:18 pm

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:I'm guessing they don't give 2 shats what you think. Unless you go there, and accepted it anyway.

I actually think a vast majority are woke, as we shoukd be, but a small minority are extremely woke.  

No, most people are normal, they dont go out of their  way to use absurd language  amd substitute words so they can potentially protect a miniscule % of the population who hasnt even asked for such changes in the first place.

The ironic thing is its actually  middle class white people dictating this and telling minorities which words they should be offended by.

If you, are speaking with someone from a minority group including lgbtq+, or even anyone, do you moderate your language so as not to offend them?

Not in the terms that youd like me to.
I wouldnt for example use the term "birthing parent" as thats an absurd label.

First of all, i dont even know what would "offend" them without asking would I? I would I (or you) know that they wouldn't find the term "birthing parent" derogatory, demeaning or offensive?

Also, if someone is inadvertedly "offended" by sometbing I say, and i haven't deliberatley been provocative or deliberately inflammatory then their offence is their problem. I can correct it in future, but its just offence and you dont have a right to not be offended, so if I make a remark that I didnt know or coukdnt possibly have any idea it  "might offend" then its not really my fault, as another person from the same minority group probably wouldn't be offended. Whether they are offended is their own subjective reaction, (and before you get your usual comprehension mix up im not talking about N words or calling someone a P as that is clearly defined)

Do you want me to carry around a clipboard of sanctioned and acceptable terms?

So  you do moderate your language so as not to offend. I'm assuming you wouldn't use certain derogatory words for lgbtq+ people in a first conversation with someone, or would hope not.  

Is it really a big thing that companies may want to not set out to upset or offend a member of staff, isn't that just good behaviour?  And isn't an lgbtq+ charity a good group to give that advice, obviously companies can pick and choose what they do.



No, i alreasy said I clearly dont use derogatory terms, but words like " mother" are not offensive. Keep up.

As for whether individual companies do about language or whatever. Do you really want to have to complete a test before you are granted a service? It might be a few unis at the moment, but where does it stop?
Mortgages, Passports, car showrooms, DIY shops, Haircuts, pubs etc?
Do you want to have to acknowledge your "guilt" whenever you employ a company or institution for goods and services?
You might not think ot would happen, but I didnt think that a uni, even one as wet as St Andrews would make you complete a form to "check your thoughts" were aligned with theirs before being granted admission.

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Post by beninho Fri 22 Oct 2021, 12:55 pm

I dont think you will find anyone claiming mother is offensive. As shown earlier, Stonewall certainly don't think so. So I'm really unsure why you are arguing it.

Most companies ask people to complete an application before joining, part of this and an interview is to assess if soneone is a fit for their company. Companiesike to employ people with similar mindsets.

But, we are all fir freedom of companies to deal with things how they want, as long as it doesn't breach anything?

If soneone you spoke to was offended by something you thought was daft, woukd you deliberately try and offend them? Or if you knew they didn't like something woukd you moderate your language?

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 22 Oct 2021, 1:01 pm

beninho wrote:

If soneone you spoke to was offended by something you thought was daft, woukd you deliberately try and offend them? Or if you knew they didn't like something woukd you moderate your language?

Yes, yes I would.

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Post by beninho Fri 22 Oct 2021, 1:05 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:

If soneone you spoke to was offended by something you thought was daft, woukd you deliberately try and offend them? Or if you knew they didn't like something woukd you moderate your language?

Yes, yes I would.

OK, I doubt I would. I may find it strange, but I guess it woukd depend what it was to how strange I found it. But in general, I try not to be a cnut to people.

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Post by incontinentia Fri 22 Oct 2021, 1:30 pm

dynamark wrote:Im told there are blanks which do emit a shell and prop blanks which just fire out the powder.Strange thing why was he pointing it at crew members ?
Perhaps he was so immersed in the role he couldnt tell fiction from reality. He's widely considered the best actor in the world.
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Post by McLaren Fri 22 Oct 2021, 2:24 pm

Super

This thread has dragged on so long I can't find if the university white privilege question related to prospective employment or study but I think my point might apply to both.

If I am employing someone, then within reason, you can look for the type of person you want to fill the role. It is perfectly reasonable to ask that one of the traits/skills is to be humble enough to have realised how privilege has shaped where you have got to. This type of thinking would be useful across the board and would be a sign you could trust someone to have thought about decisions they make. It is quite hard to glean what a person is really like from an interview process and this question would reveal a lot of useful information.
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Post by McLaren Fri 22 Oct 2021, 2:29 pm

Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.

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Post by dynamark Fri 22 Oct 2021, 5:30 pm

Mac try telling that to Seb Coe.
Steve Backley used to 'play' golf at my club and he could actually throw the ball further than he could hit it ,
Ive interviewed numerous folk for jobs and just go my instinct but now its two interviewers and a set of questions then they both assess answers with a score to get a winner partly to protect the firm when someone complains they were not selected for the job- it happens

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Post by beninho Fri 22 Oct 2021, 5:42 pm

dynamark wrote:Mac try telling that to Seb Coe.
Steve Backley used to 'play' golf at my club and he could actually throw the ball further than he could hit it ,
Ive interviewed numerous folk for jobs and just go my instinct but now its two interviewers and a set of questions then they both assess answers with a score to get a winner partly to protect the firm when someone complains they were not selected for the job- it happens

It's pretty easy to score the right person though.

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Post by westisbest Fri 22 Oct 2021, 7:54 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.

Spoken like someone whose never done any exercise Wink

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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:46 pm

westisbest wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.

Spoken like someone whose never done any exercise Wink

Running isn't a proper sport like, say, walking around a large field and occasionally hitting a small ball into a hole with a stick.

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Post by ralphjohn69 Fri 22 Oct 2021, 11:59 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
westisbest wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.

Spoken like someone whose never done any exercise Wink

Running isn't a proper sport like, say, walking around a large field and occasionally hitting a small ball into a hole with a stick.

At least the latter involves some sort of skill...

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Post by super_realist Tue 26 Oct 2021, 9:21 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

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Post by super_realist Tue 26 Oct 2021, 9:27 am

McLaren wrote:Super

This thread has dragged on so long I can't find if the university white privilege question related to prospective employment or study but I think my point might apply to both.

If I am employing someone, then within reason, you can look for the type of person you want to fill the role. It is perfectly reasonable to ask that one of the traits/skills is to be humble enough to have realised how privilege has shaped where you have got to. This type of thinking would be useful across the board and would be a sign you could trust someone to have thought about decisions they make. It is quite hard to glean what a person is really like from an interview process and this question would reveal a lot of useful information.

Mac, If i go to any University I am employing THEM to provide me with a service. No one should need their thought assessed by some woke HR department thinking up reasons to keep them in a job.
Furthermore Scottish universities places are funded the government and so insitutions should be inpartial and not only allow you matriculate when you agree to feeling "white guilt". You shouldn't feel guilt over your skin cour any more than you should feel any other guilt you have no power over.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 26 Oct 2021, 9:50 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

Mac, are you tired of getting sand kicked in your face by the handsome, muscular lads at the beach? Have you thought about the Charles Atlas bodybuilding course, to turn you into a real man, like s_r?

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Oct 2021, 9:58 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

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Post by superflyweight Tue 26 Oct 2021, 11:43 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".

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Post by super_realist Tue 26 Oct 2021, 11:45 am

superflyweight wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".  

Why would I make it up? You dont believe im a good runner and golfer?

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 26 Oct 2021, 11:48 am

super_realist wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".  

Why would I make it up? You dont believe im a good runner and golfer?

You should have run a little faster when that dog bit you on the d*ck.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Oct 2021, 12:13 pm

super_realist wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".  

Why would I make it up? You dont believe im a good runner and golfer?

Well excelling at anything tends to take passion, something you lack.

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Post by superflyweight Tue 26 Oct 2021, 12:23 pm

super_realist wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".  

Why would I make it up? You dont believe im a good runner and golfer?

Don't know, don't care, but you can't use words like "demonstrably" when all anyone has to go on is whatever you anonymously claim to be.

I ran a marathon in 15 minutes last week and stopped off halfway round to shoot 59 at Carnoustie in a howling gale. I'm demonstrably the greatest golfer/runner of all time.

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Post by Pal Joey Tue 26 Oct 2021, 12:30 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
super_realist wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".  

Why would I make it up? You dont believe im a good runner and golfer?

You should have run a little faster when that dog bit you on the d*ck.

How dare you call Usain Bolt a dog! He's got real talent.
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Post by McLaren Tue 26 Oct 2021, 1:36 pm

Super

How can you be a demonstrably better athlete than me when we have never competed against each other?

And if you ever want to shout me a round on TOC we could put it to the test.

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Post by westisbest Tue 26 Oct 2021, 1:48 pm

He’s thrown down the challenge super realist.
Time to put your money where your mouth is. Very Happy

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Post by super_realist Wed 27 Oct 2021, 8:28 am

McLaren wrote:Super

How can you be a demonstrably better athlete than me when we have never competed against each other?

And if you ever want to shout me a round on TOC we could put it to the test.


Because you claimed you had a handicap of about 5.
I havent been that high since I started playimg again about 15 years ago.

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Post by super_realist Wed 27 Oct 2021, 8:33 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Running isn't really a skilled pursuit. It is just about being able to tolerate boredom and waste a lot of your time grinding it out. Running is for the people who were never any good at proper sports like football, tennis, golf etc.


Brave words Mac considering not only am I demonstrably a better athlete than you ever could be, i'm also a better golfer than yoy could ever dream of being, but by all means keep wumming.
The amusing thing is that youre ten years younger and you still arent as good at any sport as a middle aged man.

.... says the unemployed 20st man living in his mothers basement.

For "demonstrably" read "my own made up flights of fancy".  

Why would I make it up? You dont believe im a good runner and golfer?

Well excelling at anything tends to take passion, something you lack.

Who said I dont have a passion for those things?
Having a passion doesnt guarantee you succeed anyway and having passion isnt always mecessary to be good, look at Bendtner or Nick Kyrgious

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Post by beninho Wed 27 Oct 2021, 8:45 am

All those Mps who voted down the amendment, which was to ensure water companies did all they could to stop raw sewage going into the water and rivers across the UK. Then went on to argue why they voted against trying to stop sewage going into the rivers,

All for tge government to realise, its actually a good thing to look like you actually do care, and will then decide to back the amendment, making everyone who voted against it, look pretty stupid.

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Post by McLaren Wed 27 Oct 2021, 1:02 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

How can you be a demonstrably better athlete than me when we have never competed against each other?

And if you ever want to shout me a round on TOC we could put it to the test.


Because you claimed you had a handicap of about 5.
I havent been that high since I started playimg again about 15 years ago.

It is lower than 5 but don't worry I am not quite a +2. So it shouldn't be too much trouble for you to beat me around TOC.
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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 28 Oct 2021, 9:59 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59059093

Brexit getting the better of China now.

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Post by beninho Thu 28 Oct 2021, 10:23 am

Soul Requiem wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59059093

Brexit getting the better of China now.

That's why people who only blamed brexit were wrong. It's a global issue, unfortunately we as a country have thrown in the impacts of brexit to make it a bit tougher.

Another thing, not brexit related though, is how have the Tories got the media to claim that the NI rises are 1.25% when it's generally a ruse of 10% plus. It's a wonderful trick being pulled.


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Post by beninho Thu 28 Oct 2021, 10:31 am

I know we mentioned the rise is the minimum wage before, and how it was being increased anyway. Is the new 9.50 rate being trumpeted what was already planned, or is this a new increase?

And are people still thinking that £10 is madness?

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Post by beninho Thu 28 Oct 2021, 10:47 am

I see the OBR has put the long term brexit impact as double the covid impact on the economy.

I know, this will not make a blind bit of difference to many brexit fans though.

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Post by Pal Joey Thu 28 Oct 2021, 10:52 am

Soul Requiem wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59059093

Brexit getting the better of China now.

Yeah, times will only get tougher in China as they head into winter. The imminent collapse of Evergrande and half a dozen other large property players together with the affect on all of the associated supply industries, steel production has slowed right down. Investment and consumption too. Hence the massive slump in economic growth in China considering property makes up over 30% (could be closer to 40%) of their GDP.

They stopped buying both our metallurgical (coking coal for steelmaking) and thermal (for making electricity) coal which is great for the planet in one respect but instead they have had to source lesser quality coal from elsewhere, namely Russia and Mongolia. Bad for the planet!

In the meantime, the price for coking coal has reached record prices $400/t (from below $190/t in 2019) whilst thermal coal is now just under $200/t (from around $75/t in 2019). Australia has quickly replaced their export markets for coal. China used to be 59% (coking coal) and 53% (thermal coal). Most of that has been sent to India now (up from 12% to 30% and rising) with new markets in places like Indonesia, Vietnam and the Philippines in addition to increases in exports to our traditional markets in Japan and Korea.

There are some people here wanting us to completely halt shipments of iron ore to China (memories of Pig Iron Bob selling to Japan in the lead up to WW2) and even going further with banning exports (to China in 2019-20 % of total world export in brackets) of uranium (15%), bauxite (57%), copper (50%), nickel (32%), zinc (30%) and lithium (40%)... but obviously the record prices which can be earned in this current crisis market are too lucrative to pass by.

So, in a nutshell, we live in very interesting geopolitical times. From outright bullying, intimidation and banning of some of our major exports to China (coal, cotton, beef, barley, wine, timber, lobsters, 'tourism' and 'education') there is still some trading going on but I'm not so sure there is an abundance of goodwill in the old-fashioned sense of the word.
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Post by dynamark Thu 28 Oct 2021, 12:02 pm

Ben mate keep calm .NI rises are 1.25% of income but you dont pay anything on first almost 10k so if you make 20k its half that. .Its going into social care which you should like surely.Brexit has been done and we now need to get on with it and take what we can benefit from.
Universal credit change is long overdue.I have a neighbour who refuse to work more than his 35 hours even though there is plenty of hours on offer because of the 63% taper.Hopefully this may get the lazy beggar doing a bit more to look after his family and stop dipping in to the tax take.. Life is tough but everyone has the chance to progress and do well if they make the effort.Govt job to put the conditions in place .

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Post by super_realist Fri 29 Oct 2021, 10:33 am

NHS now looking to prescribe vaping.
What? If you can afford to pay £12+ for a packet of fags, buy your own vaping kit. You dont need a prescription.
Use your own money, will power and have some self respect for yourself and some consideration for those who actually need the NHS.

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Post by dynamark Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:58 am

I would love to see an NHS where you turn up at the health centre and they tell you to go away and come back when youve stopped smoking or lost 2 stone or both.theres always been the argument about the tax take from cigs and it is legal.Maybe we could have a direct link between tax on tobacco and also alcohol and the health services .
Im well past my prime now and apart from a new hip and 2 kids born I havnt bothered the health service since I was about 5 years old and there is a reason for that. When I was leaving hospital after the hip the sister went to the bedside cabinet and said with concern wheres all your medication gone? I said sister I dont take any medication.

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Post by super_realist Sun 31 Oct 2021, 12:42 pm

You're right, the NHS is in bad need of reform, sadly people think that it is either the NHS or America as health service options.

People need to stop treating the NHS like a religion which cant be criticised and accept it isnt anything like as good as people view it. It needs serious efficiency reforms and it needs to adopt a business mentality, not in order to make profit, but a business level of efficiency amd effectove management.

If the NHS was so good, other countries would have copied it, but none have.

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Post by dynamark Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:36 pm

I see folk going to the GP and getting this constant shoulder to lean on whatever and sit down we can refer you where a bit more of the plain truth might be applicable ,We all know someone who is taking the mick and claiming to be whatever to get the benefits associated.We have a fella in the village known locally as sick mick drives a porsche and holidays in Thailand.
there is a disconnect and it could be dealt with .

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Post by super_realist Sun 31 Oct 2021, 4:48 pm

dynamark wrote:I see folk going to the GP and getting this constant shoulder to lean on whatever and sit down we can refer you where a bit more of the plain truth might be applicable ,We all know someone who is  taking the mick and claiming to be whatever to get the benefits associated.We have a fella in the village known locally as sick mick drives a porsche and holidays in Thailand.
there is a disconnect and it could be dealt with .  

Its more the lack of personal responsibility we have in the UK.
Our health is terrible compared to our neighbours and I wonder if the safety net of an NHS you dont have to pay anything at the point of delivery has anything to do with that.

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Post by JAS Mon 01 Nov 2021, 9:35 am

super_realist wrote:
dynamark wrote:I see folk going to the GP and getting this constant shoulder to lean on whatever and sit down we can refer you where a bit more of the plain truth might be applicable ,We all know someone who is  taking the mick and claiming to be whatever to get the benefits associated.We have a fella in the village known locally as sick mick drives a porsche and holidays in Thailand.
there is a disconnect and it could be dealt with .  

Its more the lack of personal responsibility we have in the UK.
Our health is terrible compared to our neighbours and I wonder if the safety net of an NHS you dont have to pay anything at the point of delivery has anything to do with that.

There are some very unpalatable truths about our nations health compared to others on the basis of diet and exercise and vices like alcohol & tobacco and yes there needs to be a helluva lot more personal responsibility.
Free at the point of use is one of the first principles of the NHS and it is (or should be) a natural aspiration for any modern, well developed, fair and free Society (if of course you believe there is such a thing as Society). However the first principles of the NHS were conceived in very different times. Personally I think there should definitely be a safety net but maybe, just maybe there needs to be a new addendum to that principle that that safety net may have to start being just a little bit more selective. How you would define eligibility (or more pertinently ineligibility) for free treatment is something that would send politicians into a complete tailspin and the rest of us into irreconcilable arguments about what was fair, what was not and where the line between the two was.
For example, without wishing to stereotype and admittedly making a bit of a generalisation, many of the people presenting with smoking and alcohol related disorders would be those least able to afford their own treatment if they didn't make "safety net eligibility" criteria. Addiction is a wicked wicked thing, some people just naturally don't succumb to it, others do and it's hard for people that don't to understand why others do. Maybe the next step for an advanced society is putting more effort and research into understanding and combatting addiction rather than demonising the victims. At the end of the day a free Society cant force everyone into a virtuous life of complete personal responsibility if it wants to retain the label "free"

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Post by super_realist Mon 01 Nov 2021, 10:13 am

Dont get me wrong JAS, I dont think we ought to be denying anyone treatment, but something like a small fee to see a Doctor that is returnable when you turn up isnt a bad idea.

The NHS is full of waste and it needs serious reform if it is to survive and be effective as a service and just throwing money at it for the NHS to create 70k a year diversity posts clearly isnt helping clinical outcomes.
Australia spend less per head than we do but get better outcomes, so what can we learn from them and their system instead of worshipping at the foot of the NHS?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 01 Nov 2021, 10:41 am

Good thing Australia has better outcomes, as it has a higher rate of obesity, smoking and cancer than us. Also higher rate of alcoholism in females (but not males).

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Post by super_realist Mon 01 Nov 2021, 10:49 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Good thing Australia has better outcomes, as it has a higher rate of obesity, smoking and cancer than us. Also higher rate of alcoholism in females (but not males).

Then its even more impressive then isnt it?
Interestingly the Global Obesity Observatory has UK and Australia as being the same when it comes to being overweight or obese, a quite revolting 35.6%

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Post by JAS Mon 01 Nov 2021, 11:25 am

super_realist wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Good thing Australia has better outcomes, as it has a higher rate of obesity, smoking and cancer than us. Also higher rate of alcoholism in females (but not males).

Then its even more impressive then isnt it?
Interestingly the Global Obesity Observatory has UK and Australia as being the same when it comes to being overweight or obese, a quite revolting 35.6%

We could spiral into endless detail with anecdotal things e.g. are Australia's cancer figures also bloated by other factors such as skin cancer from much higher levels of sunshine?

Anyway, bottom line is advanced western democracies have it within their capacity to provide universal healthcare free at the point of use. The question is whether or not the people in those societies are happy to contribute enough to ensure it stays that way. If not then it means raising some very tricky questions about how a health service should be run and what it's priorities are. That's a very difficult political debate to have openly, honestly and informatively as it could signal what kind of society we actually want to be. It's a debate that perhaps has to be had but how to have it without the political baggage would be a challenge.

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Post by Pal Joey Mon 01 Nov 2021, 11:28 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Good thing Australia has better outcomes, as it has a higher rate of obesity, smoking and cancer than us. Also higher rate of alcoholism in females (but not males).

Yeah... but... we're more spread out and have 60% less people than the UK so you don't notice it so much. I think generally we have a far more healthier lifestyle than you poor souls in the UK and obviously diet, climate and exercise play an important part in the ability to have that.

On a serious note. Health services here seem to be working pretty well. There have been numerous massive investments across the board and it seems you're never far from top level services in the cities especially. Of course it's different in remote areas. I've particularly noticed how much more the healthcare system seems to be reaching out to provide these health services.

From what I've seen or experienced it is very efficient and affordable with huge assistance from the government in terms of subsidies on procedures and prescription medications. There are always a few who slip through the net and struggle to cope and tend to complain but you get the feeling that there is always someone there to help them in a generous way. It's money well spent by the government(s) I believe but you'll always get some who naturally think there needs to be more services and facilities available in even more places, which is also a reasonable request in certain circumstances.

edit: True Jas. Skin cancer is a big one here. Better treatments are available now though if it's not too late.


Last edited by Pal Joey on Mon 01 Nov 2021, 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 01 Nov 2021, 11:34 am

Pal Joey wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Good thing Australia has better outcomes, as it has a higher rate of obesity, smoking and cancer than us. Also higher rate of alcoholism in females (but not males).

Yeah... but... we're more spread out

Especially the obese people when they sit down Smile

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