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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by super_realist Fri 22 Oct 2021, 9:42 am

First topic message reminder :

incontinentia wrote:
super_realist wrote:Will Alec Baldwin go to jail for the manslaughter of that lady on the filmset under American law or is it considered an industrial accident?
Doesnt seem like he's in trouble just yet. How do you kill someone with a prop gun that fires blanks?

Edit: https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/prop-gun-using-blanks-still-052227936.html

"As for the question of criminal responsibility, that’s for law enforcement to investigate. But it must be noted that in the vast majority of cases, the person who pulled the trigger wasn’t remotely at fault. They were handed a prop and assured it would function normally — and it didn’t."

Guns dont kill people, rappers do.

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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:40 pm

Butkers wasnt a suspension, and i recall it being pretty big news at the time, although perhaps because she is so irksome.
Like I said earlier, recall of parliament only applies to susoensions over 14 working days.

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Post by McLaren Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:41 pm

super_realist wrote:Tories need to get shot of Boris, stop letting SAGE ruin the economy with bad advice, awful predictions , stop using language which is scaring stupid Brits, start living with this mild version of Covid and crack on.

super_realist wrote:
If they keep having pointless lockdowns every time we get a new variant and carry on with unscientific measures then they will be rejected.

Super, two quite strange ideas that you almost got away with. Would you like to expand on the idea that lockdowns and other abatement measures are unscientific?
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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:43 pm

It depends why you are doing them Mac and how they are applied Mac.

It is odd that the UK response to a pandemic goes against the WHO guidance for how to act, perhaps take it up with them.

The use of masks, as they are prescribed in the UK, and the introduction of vaccine passports do not have a basis in science

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Post by McLaren Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:49 pm

A vaccine passport has a fairly obvious basis in science. You are reducing the number of susceptible individuals in an environment, and therefore the R number.

Politically you might see this as an erosion of personal freedoms but the "science" makes sense.

Anyway, if you are vaccinated why worry about a vaccine passport? Oh wait, are you now an anti vaxxer?
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Post by super_realist Fri 17 Dec 2021, 2:54 pm

McLaren wrote:A vaccine passport has a fairly obvious basis in science. You are reducing the number of susceptible individuals in an environment, and therefore the R number.

Politically you might see this as an erosion of personal freedoms but the "science" makes sense.

Anyway, if you are vaccinated why worry about a vaccine passport? Oh wait, are you now an anti vaxxer?

The hypothesis sounds obvious Mac, but it doesnt work. We can see that in Scotland and The People's Democratoc Republic of Wales.

Im not an anti vaxxer at all. Im getting my booster on Tuesday, but vaccine passports demonstrably are not reducing the spread and the governments inability to show any statistics that back them up shows this.

Why is it that people like you on the ultra left always accuse someone of being a vaccine denier, flat earther, climate denier if they dare to question?
Science is about questioning.

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Post by superflyweight Fri 17 Dec 2021, 3:13 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:A vaccine passport has a fairly obvious basis in science. You are reducing the number of susceptible individuals in an environment, and therefore the R number.

Politically you might see this as an erosion of personal freedoms but the "science" makes sense.

Anyway, if you are vaccinated why worry about a vaccine passport? Oh wait, are you now an anti vaxxer?

The hypothesis sounds obvious Mac, but it doesnt work. We can see that in Scotland and The People's Democratoc Republic of Wales.

Im not an anti vaxxer at all. Im getting my booster on Tuesday, but vaccine passports demonstrably are not reducing the spread and the governments inability to show any statistics that back them up shows this.

Why is it that people like you on the ultra left always accuse someone of being a vaccine denier, flat earther, climate denier if they dare to question?
Science is about questioning.

Pretty high bar to post or say something so stupid that could be misconstrued as an assertion that the Earth is flat.

Is Mac ultra left? I know he gets the bus everywhere, but I haven't seen him strongly advocate for Lothian Buses to being taken back into public ownership and for the fare to be payable in turnips.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 17 Dec 2021, 3:15 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:A vaccine passport has a fairly obvious basis in science. You are reducing the number of susceptible individuals in an environment, and therefore the R number.

Politically you might see this as an erosion of personal freedoms but the "science" makes sense.

Anyway, if you are vaccinated why worry about a vaccine passport? Oh wait, are you now an anti vaxxer?

The hypothesis sounds obvious Mac, but it doesnt work. We can see that in Scotland and The People's Democratoc Republic of Wales.

Im not an anti vaxxer at all. Im getting my booster on Tuesday, but vaccine passports demonstrably are not reducing the spread and the governments inability to show any statistics that back them up shows this.

Why is it that people like you on the ultra left always accuse someone of being a vaccine denier, flat earther, climate denier if they dare to question?
Science is about questioning.

How do you know the vaccine passports aren't reducing the spread or in the case of England will not reduce the spread? Just saying high case numbers isn't an answer. If you limit the freedoms of those not vaccinated you should reduce deaths per cases too, whether we should both protecting them is a different question altogether.

I'd be far happier going to a venue where everyone is vaccinated. A lot of that is based on not wanting to socialise on any level with cretinous anti vaxxers.

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Dec 2021, 3:17 pm

Why do people keep saying vaccine passes when they are covid passes if you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Dec 2021, 3:19 pm

I follow an ex tory mp, Gavin Barwell on twitter. He said something interesting. Lots of people are cancelling or stopping going out, when nothing has been mandated to do so. People seem to be making their own choices. Which seems to be what some people want, as many liked to use Sweden as an example. But then the same people complain about the choices people make. It's cma crazy situation.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:04 pm

beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:19 pm

30,000 deaths in the under 45 age range in the US. But they are all repulsively fat over there.

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

Surely we've all learned by know its not just about the threat to the individual. Its the threat they may pass it on to. That's why the marks, the hand sanitisers. I may be fine and asymptomatic but my sister who has had had cancer twice in the last few years isn't. If I pick it up from soneone who couldn't care less about vaccines and pass it on it could be deadly

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Post by dynamark Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:28 pm

Julius might be right all are flawed it seems.
How about the Baby Jesus ?
Talking jabs I went for my booster prebooked at 1 45 today queue of about 30 outside the village pharmacy so I went to the lady with the laptop Ive got a booking and she said yes back of the line please we are doing walk ins as well,Stood there for 20 minutes and only 2 went in/out so I bailed out and booked an appointment at my local health centre for next week.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:34 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:30,000 deaths in the under 45 age range in the US. But they are all repulsively fat over there.

The majority of which, vast majority, would have underlying health conditions which contributed to it.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

I myself am probably a moderate Brexit voter, i'm not overly bothered one way or another but there is a definite correlation between leavers and this ridiculous misinformation. I'm currently getting over a bout of Covid and can assure you it's not been pleasant, my chest feels like someone is dragging throwing around a bag of nails. I've had health issues in the past but have overcome them enough to cycle in the Alps so fitness wise i'm quite ok.

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Post by dynamark Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:38 pm

Genuine question Ben has sis had vaccines to help if she is unfortunate enough to get Covid.I have a neighbour( muslim I would add) who says he has cancer diabetes etc etc and he and wife flatly refuse vaccines ,too risky etc .He has been holed up in his flat with daughter who with them has hardly been out the door no school for over 18 months.No visitors deliveries left out in his car boot just mental and my question to him was how long was he willing to keep that going - could be years

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Dec 2021, 4:54 pm

My sister has had 2 jabs and booster, and just received notification that she needs a 4th jab as high risk. She is hardly holed up though, and has travelled into London to work quite a bit. She's a copper. She also has monthly chemo, even though had all clear, this is due to both cancers being really close in time to each other.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri 17 Dec 2021, 5:12 pm

dynamark wrote:Julius might be right all are flawed it seems.
How about the Baby  Jesus ?
Talking jabs I went for my booster prebooked at 1 45 today queue of about 30 outside the village pharmacy so I went to the lady with the laptop Ive got a booking and she said yes back of the line please we are doing walk ins as well,Stood there for 20 minutes  and only 2 went in/out so I bailed out and booked an appointment at my local health centre for next week.

Most babies are fairly innocent. Except fat ones and Harry & Meghan's.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 17 Dec 2021, 5:18 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

I myself am probably a moderate Brexit voter, i'm not overly bothered one way or another but there is a definite correlation between leavers and this ridiculous misinformation. I'm currently getting over a bout of Covid and can assure you it's not been pleasant, my chest feels like someone is dragging throwing around a bag of nails. I've had health issues in the past but have overcome them enough to cycle in the Alps so fitness wise i'm quite ok.

It isn't misinformation, ridiculous or otherwise, it's statistical fact.

The average age of a Covid death in the UK is 80. And in the week ending 3rd December deaths from Covid for those aged 45 or younger comprised just below 4% of the total.

Over 80% of all Covid deaths in the UK happen with an underlying health condition, the % increases for those who are younger.

Around 5-6% of all confirmed Covid cases have resulted in hospital admission. It's the upper age groups who are the most likely to end up in hospital, the younger someone is the less likely it is. The most recent weekly data showed that those who are 85+ were being admitted to hospital at a rate of 34 per every 100,000; for someone who is 75-84 it's 16 per every 100,000; and it decreases down at almost every age group (the exception of those aged 0-4 who are admitted at a similar rate to those in adolescence) with those 25-44 being admitted at a rate of 5 per every 100,000.

I'm not arguing that Covid is pleasant, no illness is, but if you're an individual aged under 45, with no underlying health conditions, then the chances of you ending up in hospital as a result is extremely unlikely. Your chances of dying even more remote. Hence it's very little threat to those individuals.

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Dec 2021, 5:33 pm

I'm pretty sure everyone has worked out that for most people covid sn't going to kill them. The issue being it seems pretty easy to spread and can be undetected on people. Though anyone vaxed will have a lower dose and only pass on a lower dose, hence being vaxed is good, and making sure vaxed ir negative people gather is also good.

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Dec 2021, 5:34 pm

The Christmas party issues with the government. My opinion of them is so low, as to not really be bothered but just shrug in an unsurprised way. It's just utterly predictable.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 17 Dec 2021, 5:44 pm

It's misinformation to present death as the only negative impact of Covid when it simply isn't. Out of interest Duty have you been jabbed?

Ps, selecting the statistics to suit your argument does not constitute statistical fact.

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Post by dynamark Fri 17 Dec 2021, 5:47 pm

Govt is paying a price for the alleged issues last Xmas but myself not over exercised about it in the grand scheme.The staff involved set a very poor example, probably went home on the tube with hundreds of others though.I think most of us broke a rule or two maybe without really thinking about it.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 17 Dec 2021, 6:30 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:It's misinformation to present death as the only negative impact of Covid when it simply isn't. Out of interest Duty have you been jabbed?

Ps, selecting the statistics to suit your argument does not constitute statistical fact.

I haven't presented death as the only negative impact of Covid, that would be ludicrous.

I'm talking about the threats to long-term health, of which there are three - death, hospitalisation, long covid. The data on the third of those is still lacking. There are, of course, other negative impacts to Covid, but I'm only talking about the threats.

I've used statistical fact to refute your erroneous claim that I was spreading ridiculous misinformation.

And neither have I selected statistics to suit my argument; rather the other way round in that I have arrived at my conclusion after studying the statistics which show, quite clearly, that the threat of death or hospitalisation from Covid-19 to healthy individuals aged under 45 is very low.

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Post by westisbest Sun 19 Dec 2021, 8:33 am

beninho wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

Surely we've all learned by know its not just about the threat to the individual. Its the threat they may pass it on to. That's why the marks, the hand sanitisers. I may be fine and asymptomatic but my sister who has had had cancer twice in the last few years isn't.  If I pick it up from soneone who couldn't care less about vaccines and pass it on it could be deadly

That’s the thing Ben. There are people who say, “oh I’ll be fine if I get it”. Not having a thought for others.

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Post by pedro Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:16 am

westisbest wrote:
beninho wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

Surely we've all learned by know its not just about the threat to the individual. Its the threat they may pass it on to. That's why the marks, the hand sanitisers. I may be fine and asymptomatic but my sister who has had had cancer twice in the last few years isn't.  If I pick it up from soneone who couldn't care less about vaccines and pass it on it could be deadly

That’s the thing Ben. There are people who say, “oh I’ll be fine if I get it”. Not having a thought for others.
Yes, but the show must go on now. We have to find a way of continuing normal life for everyone, without having to live in fear.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 20 Dec 2021, 8:29 am

pedro wrote:
westisbest wrote:
beninho wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:f you show a lateral flow negative you get in anywhere regardless of your vax status.

Which is a better idea than asking for status of vaccination.

But if a person is 45 or under, aren't overweight, and have no underlying health conditions, Covid is very little threat anyway.

Surely we've all learned by know its not just about the threat to the individual. Its the threat they may pass it on to. That's why the marks, the hand sanitisers. I may be fine and asymptomatic but my sister who has had had cancer twice in the last few years isn't.  If I pick it up from soneone who couldn't care less about vaccines and pass it on it could be deadly

That’s the thing Ben. There are people who say, “oh I’ll be fine if I get it”. Not having a thought for others.
Yes, but the show must go on now. We have to find a way of continuing normal life for everyone, without having to live in fear.

That's what the vaccines are for.

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Post by beninho Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:03 am

Vaccines, boosters, masks, testing yourself, hand sanitizer. Doing that should enable as normal as possible. Thus relies on people to do the right thing though, which isn't a given.

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Post by beninho Mon 20 Dec 2021, 9:04 am

Another leaked picture, this time all in the downing street garden having a cheese and wine get together. I'm struggling to be fussed with it, to its clearly a breach as was in May 2020. But someone somewhere is leaking a lot of stuff. Obviously after boris.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:18 pm

beninho wrote:Another leaked picture, this time all in the downing street garden having a cheese and wine get together. I'm struggling to be fussed with it, to its clearly a breach as was in May 2020. But someone somewhere is leaking a lot of stuff. Obviously after boris.

How can they claim its "work" when Carrie and kids are there?

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:21 pm

dynamark wrote:Genuine question Ben has sis had vaccines  to help if she is unfortunate enough to get Covid.I have a neighbour( muslim I would add) who says he has cancer diabetes etc etc and he and wife flatly refuse vaccines ,too risky etc .He has been holed up in his flat with daughter who with them has hardly been out the door no school for over 18 months.No visitors deliveries left out in his car boot just mental and my question to him was how long was he willing to keep that going - could be years  

If someone doesnt have a vaccine on the basis of religion, they are stupid on multiple levels.



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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 1:57 pm

beninho wrote:Vaccines, boosters, masks, testing yourself, hand sanitizer. Doing that should enable as normal as possible. Thus relies on people to do the right thing though, which isn't a given.

But clearly it doesn't as people have been doing this for 21 months now and we're heading for yet another pointless lockdown. People testing themselves mainly allows the case numbers to shoot up and send the msm into absolute hysteria.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:02 pm

Exactly.

The government need ton starrt giving details on:

Ages of those dying/hospitalised, how many had underlying issues and what % of dead have been vaccinated.




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Post by beninho Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:Vaccines, boosters, masks, testing yourself, hand sanitizer. Doing that should enable as normal as possible. Thus relies on people to do the right thing though, which isn't a given.

But clearly it doesn't as people have been doing this for 21 months now and we're heading for yet another pointless lockdown. People testing themselves mainly allows the case numbers to shoot up and send the msm into absolute hysteria.

Msm?

Maybe you have faith that people are doing all that. It seems we have quite a lot of people not getting vaxed, and still have a lot of people not wearing masks. People seem to have the views that they don't need to. Maybe if/when people take it more seriously rather then stupid anti lockdown masks through London, we will get somewhere. Instead we have these daft protests and idiots talking about civil liberties because they don't want to scan a qr code.

Cases will go up, they will go down, we just need to ride with it. But there isn't a way of just cracking on as normal. Look, no restrictions on many things at present, yet people aren't going out.

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Post by beninho Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:30 pm

super_realist wrote:Exactly.

The government need ton starrt giving details on:

Ages of those dying/hospitalised, how many had underlying issues and what % of dead have been vaccinated.




Why?

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Post by dynamark Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:35 pm

Good point just had my booster this morning and feel a bit ropey headache etc.Surgery was deserted other than those having jabs. No one sick anymore?
Hate to think govt policy affecting everyone and the economy is caused by those refusing vaccines. More tests more positives/off work/school/isolation .Reporting needs to be different but I suspect they know that imagine the reaction from the public when we find that 90 % of those in hospital are fat smokers unvaccined

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:39 pm

beninho wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
beninho wrote:Vaccines, boosters, masks, testing yourself, hand sanitizer. Doing that should enable as normal as possible. Thus relies on people to do the right thing though, which isn't a given.

But clearly it doesn't as people have been doing this for 21 months now and we're heading for yet another pointless lockdown. People testing themselves mainly allows the case numbers to shoot up and send the msm into absolute hysteria.

Msm?

Maybe you have faith that people are doing all that. It seems we have quite a lot of people not getting vaxed, and still have a lot of people not wearing masks. People seem to have the views that they don't need to. Maybe if/when people take it more seriously rather then stupid anti lockdown masks through London, we will get somewhere. Instead we have these daft protests and idiots talking about civil liberties because they don't want to scan a qr code.

Cases will go up, they will go down, we just need to ride with it. But there isn't a way of just cracking on as normal. Look, no restrictions on many things at present, yet people aren't going out.

Sorry, mainstream media.

Over 80% of people aged 12 or older have had at least two jabs. The ones who've had the booster jab stand at nearly 50% and it's on a rapid increase as the rollout starts properly (it was around 40% a week ago). You can't do a lot better than this. Masks make a negligible difference, at best.

Civil liberties is a very just concern.

The key stat isn't cases, it's hospitalisations and deaths, neither of which are seeing a sharp increase and neither of which are remotely near the levels seen 11-12 months ago.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:44 pm

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:Exactly.

The government need ton starrt giving details on:

Ages of those dying/hospitalised, how many had underlying issues and what % of dead have been vaccinated.




Why?

Because it would be far more useful to know if we are enduring restrictions to safeguard morons who wont get the vaccine.

Why would you not want to know the breakdown? It's essential to working out risk.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 2:46 pm

dynamark wrote:Good point just had my booster this morning and feel a bit ropey headache etc.Surgery was deserted other than those having jabs. No one sick anymore?
Hate to think govt policy affecting everyone and the economy is caused by those refusing vaccines. More tests more positives/off work/school/isolation .Reporting needs to be different but I suspect they know that imagine the reaction from the public when we find that 90 % of those in hospital are fat smokers unvaccined

Most people in hospital with Covid are the vaccinated, unsurprisingly because they account for most of the population. The unvaccinated (zero doses) account for about 40% of those in hospital, which means they're disproportionally overrepresented compared to their overall population.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 3:06 pm

Quidditch UK (yes it exists) to change name to "dissociate" itself from JK Rowling. Hilarious.

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Post by dynamark Mon 20 Dec 2021, 3:47 pm

Duty I dont have those numbers to quote but it sort of makes the point not to mention the fat smokers!!
We have thrown this one out many times NHS treats anyone regardless of their personal life choices.Think about folk you know my best pal was big drinker/smoker-heart bypass. Another lad falls over every few weeks and gets a couple of days in hospital-massive drinker.On the other hand lads at golf fit and well. Not every case but if folk took care of themselves it would really help.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:01 pm

dynamark wrote:Duty I dont have those numbers to quote but it sort of makes the point not to mention the fat smokers!!
We have thrown this one out many times NHS treats anyone regardless of their personal life choices.Think about folk you know my best pal was big drinker/smoker-heart bypass. Another lad falls over every few weeks and gets a couple of days in hospital-massive drinker.On the other hand lads at golf fit and well. Not every case but if folk took care of themselves it would really help.

My life isn't curtailed because someone wants to go climbing, has a car crash, falls off a mountain, breaks their leg playing football etc, but my life is potentially being restricted because morons and people too lazy to take care of themselves aren't getting vaccines.

That's not how it should be, these cretins are actually disgraceful because they are using NHS resources when there is no need for it. These figures should be disclosed to shame these people into getting a vaccine.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:16 pm

dynamark wrote:Duty I dont have those numbers to quote but it sort of makes the point not to mention the fat smokers!!
We have thrown this one out many times NHS treats anyone regardless of their personal life choices.Think about folk you know my best pal was big drinker/smoker-heart bypass. Another lad falls over every few weeks and gets a couple of days in hospital-massive drinker.On the other hand lads at golf fit and well. Not every case but if folk took care of themselves it would really help.

I agree, prevention is better than cure. People need to manage their health better, but personal responsibility isn't a big thing at the moment - instead we have a blame culture and a victim culture. So sad.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:21 pm

super_realist wrote:
dynamark wrote:Duty I dont have those numbers to quote but it sort of makes the point not to mention the fat smokers!!
We have thrown this one out many times NHS treats anyone regardless of their personal life choices.Think about folk you know my best pal was big drinker/smoker-heart bypass. Another lad falls over every few weeks and gets a couple of days in hospital-massive drinker.On the other hand lads at golf fit and well. Not every case but if folk took care of themselves it would really help.

My life isn't curtailed because someone wants to go climbing, has a car crash, falls off a mountain, breaks their leg playing football etc, but my life is potentially being restricted because morons and people too lazy to take care of themselves aren't getting vaccines.

That's not how it should be, these cretins are actually disgraceful because they are using NHS resources when there is no need for it. These figures should be disclosed to shame these people into getting a vaccine.

Even if 100% of the population were vaccinated, we'd still be facing lockdown and perpetual restrictions.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:25 pm

Duty, Do you agree that the way the NHS is set up potentially contributes to the awful state of health in the UK? The knowledge that the NHS will treat you regardless of how you take care of yourself could be part of the problem.
Don't get me wrong, we are a truly lazy, gluttenous nation with very little self respect and even less personal responsibility, but you only need to walk around most European countries and see that most of them are in far better health than our country is, and this is backed up by statistics, and not one of them has our NHS style of healthcare. Coincidence?

Are we better moving towards a system like Germany, France, Sweden etc instead of treating the NHS like a very poorly managed sacred cow that can't be criticised?

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Post by Duty281 Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:45 pm

super_realist wrote:Duty, Do you agree that the way the NHS is set up potentially contributes to the awful state of health in the UK? The knowledge that the NHS will treat you regardless of how you take care of yourself could be part of the problem.
Don't get me wrong, we are a truly lazy, gluttenous nation with very little self respect and even less personal responsibility, but you only need to walk around most European countries and see that most of them are in far better health than our country is, and this is backed up by statistics, and not one of them has our NHS style of healthcare. Coincidence?

Are we better moving towards a system like Germany, France, Sweden etc instead of treating the NHS like a very poorly managed sacred cow that can't be criticised?

Yes, that's a good point and I agree we should move towards a system like Germany/France. The NHS is one of the worst healthcare systems in Western Europe (and one of the most expensive), but seventy years of propaganda about how it's 'the envy of the world' means it will never get the serious reforms it needs. Any time a politician even dares to suggest proper reform of the NHS, he/she is pilloried for it.

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Post by beninho Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:50 pm

I've looked the Swedish healthcare model, and can't imagine that increasing taxes to better fund it will go down well with many in this country. It seems they pay more, as per gdp, compared to the uk aswell.

But, we don't seem to be remotely as liberal as the swedes. But state contributions on 97% of medical costs sounds good, with a cap on total prescriptions each year, 196 sounds fine.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 4:55 pm

beninho wrote:I've looked the Swedish healthcare model, and can't imagine that increasing taxes to better fund it will go down well with many in this country. It seems they pay more, as per gdp, compared to the uk aswell.

But, we don't seem to be remotely as liberal as the swedes. But state contributions on 97% of medical costs sounds good, with a cap on total prescriptions each year, 196 sounds fine.

The UK spunks money on medicine in a British Leyland style show of inefficiency. It spends more per head than Australia, but in most factors fares less well.
20% of what you pay on income tax goes to the NHS, we should have a better service and some of us at least deserve a better system.
We already make contributions to dental and optometry, makes sense we do in other areas too.

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Post by super_realist Mon 20 Dec 2021, 5:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:
super_realist wrote:Duty, Do you agree that the way the NHS is set up potentially contributes to the awful state of health in the UK? The knowledge that the NHS will treat you regardless of how you take care of yourself could be part of the problem.
Don't get me wrong, we are a truly lazy, gluttenous nation with very little self respect and even less personal responsibility, but you only need to walk around most European countries and see that most of them are in far better health than our country is, and this is backed up by statistics, and not one of them has our NHS style of healthcare. Coincidence?

Are we better moving towards a system like Germany, France, Sweden etc instead of treating the NHS like a very poorly managed sacred cow that can't be criticised?

Yes, that's a good point and I agree we should move towards a system like Germany/France. The NHS is one of the worst healthcare systems in Western Europe (and one of the most expensive), but seventy years of propaganda about how it's 'the envy of the world' means it will never get the serious reforms it needs. Any time a politician even dares to suggest proper reform of the NHS, he/she is pilloried for it.  

It's incredibly frustrating. If you dare to say the NHS needs reform, the loony left will accuse you of wanting to sell it off as if the American system is the only alternative.
Truth is the NHS needs to behave more as if it is a business, not striving for profit, but making better use of its funding by being more efficient and not wasting money on "diversity tsars", better procurement etc.
It's laughably dishonest when people say "it's the envy of the world", it really isn't.

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Post by beninho Mon 20 Dec 2021, 7:20 pm

The loony left, the Msm, its all gone a bit Trumpy in here.

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