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World T20 discussion thread

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Post by Duty281 Wed 03 Nov 2021, 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Blimey, Cross takes five fours off the sixth over. 48/1 after the PP, Scotland still in the game.

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Post by eirebilly Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:34 pm

Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.

Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.
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Post by Duty281 Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:34 pm

57 from 24 and England lost. That was a genuine choke.

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Post by VTR Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:34 pm

Well, like others said, one injury too many. Archer impossible to replace, but Mills was a decent option then gets injured. Death bowling is the hardest part of the game

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:35 pm

Brilliant from Daryl Mitchell. He's had a fabulous tournament. What a call to promote him up to open.

Congrats to NZ.

A NZ vs Pakistan final would be a lot of fun to watch.

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Post by alfie Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:35 pm

All done ...NZ win with an over to spare !

Hats off to NZ : thoroughly well deserved win. Never panicked under pressure ; backed themselves to come home at the end and did so decisively.

Reckon they might go on and win the cup from here.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:35 pm

That is a pathetic capitulation.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:36 pm

Just not good enough from England. 166 on the board and Livingstone bowling his four over for 22 - they should have cruised it.

Well done Mitchell. He kept his head and was striking them clean! But Neesham won them that game, what an innings! 27 off 11 on a wicket everyone else struggled on - majestic hitting.

The loss of Archer and then Mills just too much to overcome.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:39 pm

eirebilly wrote:Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.

Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.

Buttler's face during that over said it all to be honest.

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Post by eirebilly Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:40 pm

king_carlos wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.

Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.

Buttler's face during that over said it all to be honest.
I did not like that to be honest. Very poor from Jos in my view.
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Post by Duty281 Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:41 pm

It was a very odd game. England couldn't get boundaries in bunches, but they still amassed a strong 166 which was more than enough on that pitch. But only getting 166, they left runs out there. Billings was picked ahead of Willey, but didn't get to bat. It was a wasted selection. And if you were told pre-game that Boult would end up 0/40, you'd think England were on for 200+.

England got the bowling part pretty much exactly right and had the game safely won...until Jordan's horrific over. There's no excusing that at this level. I'm not sure it was the right call to bowl Jordan for the 17th (I said so at the time) but it happened. And England lost.

Well done to New Zealand and to Mitchell in particular, who I said was one of the main batsmen to worry about. I'm not sure how good Neesham's innings was - he was served up lollipop after lollipop.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:42 pm

I had no idea until today that Daryl Mitchell was John Mitchell's son. Now I've seen it I can never unsee it. Spitting image of his old man!

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Post by alfie Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:44 pm

England will be gutted no doubt . But they've just been outplayed here by the better team on the night.

Jordan will be hurting. Sympathy for him in that Neesham was in "the zone " ; but those wides showed he basically lost it under pressure and that's going to be hard to stomach.

Can't help wondering why Moeen didn't bowl at some point ; just to give England the option of letting one of their chosen bowlers not necessarily bowl all four. Jordan wasn't actually the one I'd have expected to be marmelized at the death , of course : but if Moeen had bowled as he has in the group games , maybe...

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.

Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.

Buttler's face during that over said it all to be honest.
I did not like that to be honest. Very poor from Jos in my view.

They tried arm around the shoulder for the first half of the over to be fair. When someone bowls that many poor balls on the trot I can understand the keeper looking p**ed off as he passes the ball to cover.

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Post by eirebilly Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:49 pm

Kane Williamson really is the nicest man in cricket.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:50 pm

Don’t think we need to over analyse anything too much really - could they have got a few more runs? Sure.
But they had them 110-4 chasing 167 with 24 balls left, with the overs to be bowled by three of their best mainline bowlers - and they lost with 6 balls to spare.
Unfortunately a total failure of death bowling from Jordan, Rashid and Woakes. A shame, but it is what it is
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Post by alfie Wed 10 Nov 2021, 5:54 pm

To be honest I am not at all surprised NZ won the match : I have said all along I rate them as good as anyone in this format - in any format in fact. But after Livingstone's last over I really thought England had taken it beyond them.
We should know by now t20 finals are never over until the last ball. Perhaps Ben Stokes will have a comforting word or two with Jordan when next they meet...
Morgan still looks a bit stunned. Probably not looking forward to the inquest.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 10 Nov 2021, 6:06 pm

2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?

So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.

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Post by ebop Wed 10 Nov 2021, 6:17 pm

Stoked the boys won that game. Unlucky England, well played, felt like they were in control after an appalling start to our innings. Some key moments went our way like the 6 awarded when it could have been a catch and another 6 that was marginal when the England player brushed the rope. And that poor over by Jordan. Never felt we were in it until Neesham started hitting. Tense game, painful as a NZ fan to watch at times, but proud of the boys for hanging in there. Again, unlucky England, very good team.
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Post by VTR Wed 10 Nov 2021, 6:33 pm

So reflecting a bit on that, I'm not sure it was a bottle job. New Zealand took it deep with wickets in hand and would always know the death bowling could be targeted. Jordan is a good player but nowhere near world class as we all know. That can be costly at this level and so it proved today. I don't think there's a complete outfit in this tournament, even NZ themselves have a weakness in batting depth, and would have been glad Santner only came in when the game was pretty much in the bag

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Post by GSC Wed 10 Nov 2021, 7:21 pm

I think England did a bit. But in this format, it really only takes one great cameo to change a game and Neesham did that for NZ. Sometimes the other team just plays better.
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Post by guildfordbat Wed 10 Nov 2021, 7:28 pm

JDizzle wrote:Decent over from Boult to finish. Has to be Neesham.

160 would be about par with the dew factor so every run over that is crucial. And please don’t do a Santner in 2019 and not run off the final ball!

I'm a big fan of Boult (although not as big as Mrs Billy Wink ). I readily accept he was a long way from his best today and too often sent down poor deliveries. However, what I still liked - and would contrast this with some of our bowlers towards the end - is that he never completely lost it or looked totally intimidated.

From a quick and sad statto check, 24 of the 40 runs he conceded came from the first 3 balls of each of his 4 overs. Balls 4 to 6 went for a combined total of 16 runs - that's still not great but shows he didn't fold in the face of deserved stick. If he had and lesser mortals would have done, we would probably have an England final to look forward to now whilst Duty would be receiving another pay out from his bookie. Smile

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Post by KP_fan Wed 10 Nov 2021, 8:10 pm

I wasn’t watching this edition of WC very enthusiastically cause as a format T20 sucks
& That  Ind was crap, left even lesser incentive......so to keep myself  interested I decided to bet and picked NZ for the WC winner at 5 times the return, put $30 on them yesterday

And a bit on NZ for today's game too at 2.5 times return……for that keeps you genuinely excited and by taking a side in an otherwise neutral game
btw I don’t have a favorite but return were highest on NZ and in this format all 4 teams had a  reasonable chance…inspite of Pak and Eng looking by far better than others.
Because the format sucks!

Was a good game….Eng batted well to keep wickets in hand…accelerated well with a 100 in last 10 to get to what I would rate as an above par score on a ground that was large and pitch not a flat Patta by any means

Eng bowled well….with pacers and their spinners did quite well too…Livingstone surprising all including himself….Eng’s fielding was good too….so what did Eng do wrong?

Basically Nothing
Just that the format sucks….. one 10 ball 27 cameo and most of those scored in 1 over of Jordan was enough for the all-round  better & consistent team to be knocked off. The format does not reward consistency and if you are a good team and hang in there a flash of brilliance can help overcome the very-good/ all round superior side.
That’s why Test Cricket  reigns Supreme & ODIs too give more space to consistency

If you do nitpicking you could say Morgan should have held Wood back  for later…..but that’s just nitpicking
Or blame luck for those parried catches not going Eng’s way…..but that was brilliance that turned them into half chances…..those weren’t really catches

I hope Pak beats Aus tomm…..they have looked the imposing side
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Post by VTR Wed 10 Nov 2021, 8:38 pm

I'm no hater of T20 but some of those points do resonate. Not sour grapes, as given the vagaries of the format, wins don't mean that much and defeats really don't bother me. Even this, I am over it pretty quickly, but give me a bad Test defeat and I'll be miserable for possibly a few weeks!

Certainly I remember when England won this, it was of course good but didn't mean that much in the long term. Things like Ashes 2005, 2010/11, winning in India and of course winning the real World Cup are far more memorable

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Post by VTR Wed 10 Nov 2021, 8:39 pm

I'm no hater of T20 but some of those points do resonate. Not sour grapes, as given the vagaries of the format, wins don't mean that much and defeats really don't bother me. Even this, I am over it pretty quickly, but give me a bad Test defeat and I'll be miserable for possibly a few weeks!

Certainly I remember when England won this, it was of course good but didn't mean that much in the long term. Things like Ashes 2005, 2010/11, winning in India and of course winning the real World Cup are far more memorable

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Post by Duty281 Wed 10 Nov 2021, 8:42 pm

We all know The Hundred is the real format, anything else is basically irrelevant.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Nov 2021, 9:13 pm

Being able to bowl two overs from the same bowler would have been great with England's weaknesses in this tournament. Just bowl Woakes for the 1st and 2nd over then the 4th and 6th. All his bowling done in the PP. Turns a weakness (where he bowls outside of it) into a strength. Bellissimo as Jade Dernbach would now say.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Nov 2021, 9:18 pm

JDizzle wrote:2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?

So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.

2022 World T20 in Australia as well. That host is a key part with Morgan. It skates under the radar a touch but he isn't great against the short ball. He hits pace very well when pitched up (as most do) but sides have figured out they can go short to him consistently. Opposition doing that more is a key part of his decline in form I think.

Malan likes pace on so in contrast Australia hosting will help him you'd imagine.

Rumours are that Root will put himself into the IPL auction for the coming year as well. I still think Root could be a terrific T20 player with more exposure in the format.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 10 Nov 2021, 9:45 pm

JDizzle wrote:2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?

So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.

I think providing he wants too, and his form doesn't totally nosedive (I know he hasn't had the best 2021 but he didn't really get a proper bat in this tournament, and I'd back him to refind 2019 and 2020 form still) then he should be kept for both - his leadership on and off the field I really do think is crucial to this side, especially now with Bayliss gone (sorry but I don't think wet flannel Chris Silverwood is bringing much to the table to the ODI/T20i sides). Of course, if the batting really has gone then a tough conversation might need to be had...

Probably not the time for a full post mortem and look ahead to 2022 and 2023 just right now...but I do have some thoughts about who England might need to give a little elbow to the side (I believe it's coined "a Plunkett") and who they should be trying to integrate into the fold for both t20 and ODI squads in the coming year or two. Do think there needs to be a bit of a refresh/integration of some younger blood around the white ball circuit.
I'll bring some long form gibberish in the coming days once I've got over the disappointment of today.
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Post by kingraf Wed 10 Nov 2021, 11:49 pm

Thought England looked limited during their loss to us, and I also thought their death bowling was pretty substandard (they conceded 70 off the final five overs against us) the first time it got really tested against a team that had its bases loaded.

England now face a similar debate as the one we have where our captain was probably a capable batting option in these conditions, but questions about his hitting abilities on the massive Australian grounds persist. Similarly Eoin Morgan hasn't looked great against the short ball recently and you'd think in Australia it's probably the one thing you have to be smart against (although there's every chance the tournament needs to be truncated in terms of travel distances, at which point Victoria and I suppose New South Wales would be the sole viable options, and they're pretty flat decks with not much life).

Finally, maybe it's just me, but the over supply of ICC tournaments (if you include the WTC, there will basically be one every year until 2027) means that even if you don't win, instead of the heartbreak we felt in 1999, knowing there wouldn't be another chance for four years, it kinda just feels like my favourite football team not winning promotion last season, "we'll get it next year". How can I miss you if you won't be gone long enough to be valuable??
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Post by JDizzle Thu 11 Nov 2021, 12:12 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?

So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.

I think providing he wants too, and his form doesn't totally nosedive (I know he hasn't had the best 2021 but he didn't really get a proper bat in this tournament, and I'd back him to refind 2019 and 2020 form still) then he should be kept for both - his leadership on and off the field I really do think is crucial to this side, especially now with Bayliss gone (sorry but I don't think wet flannel Chris Silverwood is bringing much to the table to the ODI/T20i sides). Of course, if the batting really has gone then a tough conversation might need to be had...

Probably not the time for a full post mortem and look ahead to 2022 and 2023 just right now...but I do have some thoughts about who England might need to give a little elbow to the side (I believe it's coined "a Plunkett") and who they should be trying to integrate into the fold for both t20 and ODI squads in the coming year or two. Do think there needs to be a bit of a refresh/integration of some younger blood around the white ball circuit.
I'll bring some long form gibberish in the coming days once I've got over the disappointment of today.

Looking forward to this - England are a sneaky old side, so be interesting to see any suggestions about potential new blood. .

Buttler - 31
Bairstow - 32
Malan - 34
Moeen -34
Livingstone - 28
Morgan - 35
Billings - 30
Woakes - 32
Jordan - 33
Rashid - 33
Wood - 31

Stokes - 30
Root - 30
Roy - 31

So the entire side that played today was over 30 bar LL. No suggestion anyone will immediately fall off a cliff, but a lot will go at similar times so definitely useful having some succession planning in place.

I know Leamon thinks having experience is crucial to winning WCs. But seems counter intuitive to me. You get loads of caps by being good, you don’t get good by having loads of caps. But if that is their attitude, hard to see any wholesale changes (not that I think they are needed) pre 22 and 23.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 11 Nov 2021, 12:28 am

I'd certainly be looking at Saqib Mahmood and George Garton with the next World T20 in Australia.

I know many don't rate him but I think a fit Sam Curran is a better option than Willey as well. I also rate Willey but I think Curran is a less limited hitter and has a bit more flexibility to when he bowls.

The batting is so strong that it will be tough for anyone to break in but I'd certainly hope to someone like Tom Banton, Phil Salt or Will Jacks coming into the squad regularly. Jacks boundary hitting stats in particular are very impressive. I also think Zak Crawley has a lot of potential in T20.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 4:08 am

So after that disappointment t20 has slipped a bit as the format of choice for most on here Smile

No secret that it has never been high on my list - though I have to admit I have quite enjoyed this tournament. As KP_fan says , it is a game in which the result can be determined by a few moments of drama , rather than settled by consistent play over the course of the match. Where I think he errs though is in claiming that this means it "sucks" ; or that it means the better team can lose. It is the nature of the game : put crudely - as West Indies demonstrated last time - the key is usually seeing who can hit the most sixes rather than testing all the skills of a cricketer. Doesn't mean its rubbish ; but one reason why I would always rate it a lesser game than Tests , or even 50 over stuff. Sill a valid competition...and the better team on the day at executing the required skills will generally win - as they did last night.

As I say , I have enjoyed it ; but a part of me asks whether (given the unpredictability of results) it has been wise for England to invest so much effort in the format - sometimes to the detriment of the Test Team ? Just a thought...

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 4:40 am

As to the match , apart from (obviously) praising NZ , especially Neesham , Mitchell and Conway for the way they revived the innings from an awful start ; we shouldn't put all the blame on Jordan. His over was a shocker , no question : not sure why he melted down so badly , given his experience ; though I do also wonder whether he wasn't hampered rather than helped by too many non-bowlers surrounding him with advice in the middle of it all. He had actually had a pretty good run in the group games so it surprised me that he performed as badly as he did this time.
He wasn't the only one though. Rashid (generally seen as England's best bowler in this format) bowled rather poorly throughout , I thought. Went for plenty and was arguably lucky not to go for a few more as he missed his mark quite a lot - and was surprisingly shown up by the comparatively unheralded Livingstone. Also think Morgan didn't get his timing right around Rashid : did he need to bowl in the power play , when the pace men were doing so well early ? Was it wise to save him for the 18th over ?
And I am still a little mystified as to why Moeen wasn't used : he had been highly effective - and used regularly - in the previous games ; and I have had trouble thinking of any reason why he would be deemed a particular risk in last night's circumstances. Was it that Morgan thought the game was basically safe from halfway and it was best not to tinker with Plan A ? I may be wrong and it might have made no difference ; but I am a big fan of having a bit of flexibility in a contest where a few balls can dictate the outcome. I thought Morgan was too.
Not really wanting to criticise Woakes who was truly excellent early. Game was essentially over when he took the ball for the 19th and I reckon they were all a bit shell shocked by then. But with hindsight (and even a thought at the time ) it might have been better to let him bowl out at the start and rely on Wood at the death as being unlikely to do any worse. If he had taken another wicket...
Nitpicking there I confess. The perils of having only three seam options and basically not trusting one of them in the crucial moments : I note that Wood was the most economical of the bowlers apart from Livingstone despite one bad over. He may well have been slaughtered at the end but if you start with that belief why was he in the side over Curran or Willey ?

Ah well , enough. All done for a few months...whether Morgan continues in charge , what changes may be made in personnel - and how much priority this stuff will be given going forward (comparatively less , I hope!) we will see in time. On with the red ball game !

And two good t20 matches left to enjoy with a bit less emotional loading for England fans...

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Post by VTR Thu 11 Nov 2021, 8:47 am

I like kingraf's thoughts around always having always another chance. I'd put Champions Trophy, World T20 about the same, and there seems to be one of those about every 6 months!

One thing to say though, England are building up quite a number of failures from winning positions in the business end of tournaments. I think Gattings reverse sweep started the curse, but even in the last 10 years you have a Champions Trophy and World T20 final lost from winning positions, and now a semi final to add to that

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Post by eirebilly Thu 11 Nov 2021, 9:02 am

My reflections on the match are only positive for New Zealand. I thought they were excellent at the end. After Livingston's over, I thought they were gone but they fought back well. Ye can put it down to that one over from Jordan but I feel that simply rattled him (not just him but the entire England team) to the point where all form just disappeared. 

The negatives for England was actually there batting for me. With plenty left in the hutch, they did not go on the attack early enough. Both Moeen and Malan will get plaudits for their innings' (rightly so) but I feel that they actually hampered England when the foot should have been put on the gas.

On to today, I really want Pakistan to win as they have been the best team but i have a feeling it is going to be a New Zealand Australia final on Sunday.
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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 11 Nov 2021, 9:11 am

VTR wrote:I like kingraf's thoughts around always having always another chance. I'd put Champions Trophy, World T20 about the same, and there seems to be one of those about every 6 months!

One thing to say though, England are building up quite a number of failures from winning positions in the business end of tournaments. I think Gattings reverse sweep started the curse, but even in the last 10 years you have a Champions Trophy and World T20 final lost from winning positions, and now a semi final to add to that

Even in the 50 over world Cup, the top order choked and relied on Stokes and Buttler bailing them out. At which point do we factor in Morgans captaincy not being good enough in these situations?

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 11 Nov 2021, 10:54 am

I'd say England peaked a little too early in the tournament and yesterday against New Zealand they got a little bogged down for four or five overs of their innings. If they had teed off earlier they may have been able to put another 20 or so runs on the board. Full credit to New Zealand though who looked precariously placed with run rate at one point at over 12 runs an over. They turned it around and when they plied the pressure onto the England bowlers their length went AWOL and the runs flowed.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 11 Nov 2021, 11:42 am

alfie wrote:As to the match , apart from (obviously) praising NZ , especially Neesham , Mitchell and Conway for the way they revived the innings from an awful start ; we shouldn't put all the blame on Jordan. His over was a shocker , no question : not sure why he melted down so badly , given his experience ; though I do also wonder whether he wasn't hampered rather than helped by too many non-bowlers surrounding him with advice in the middle of it all. He had actually had a pretty good run in the group games so it surprised me that he performed as badly as he did this time.
He wasn't the only one though. Rashid (generally seen as England's best bowler in this format) bowled rather poorly throughout , I thought. Went for plenty and was arguably lucky not to go for a few more as he missed his mark quite a lot - and was surprisingly shown up by the comparatively unheralded Livingstone. Also think Morgan didn't get his timing right around Rashid : did he need to bowl in the power play , when the pace men were doing so well early ? Was it wise to save him for the 18th over ?
And I am still a little mystified as to why Moeen wasn't used : he had been highly effective - and used regularly - in the previous games ; and I have had trouble thinking of any reason why he would be deemed a particular risk in last night's circumstances. Was it that Morgan thought the game was basically safe from halfway and it was best not to tinker with Plan A ? I may be wrong and it might have made no difference ; but I am a big fan of having a bit of flexibility in a contest where a few balls can dictate the outcome. I thought  Morgan was too.
Not really wanting to criticise Woakes who was truly excellent early. Game was essentially over when he took the ball for the 19th and I reckon they were all a bit shell shocked by then. But with hindsight (and even a thought at the time ) it might have been better to let him bowl out at the start and rely on Wood at the death as being unlikely to do any worse. If he had taken another wicket...
Nitpicking there I confess. The perils of having only three seam options and basically not trusting one of them in the crucial moments : I note that Wood was the most economical of the bowlers apart from Livingstone despite one bad over. He may well have been slaughtered at the end but if you start with that belief why was he in the side over Curran or Willey ?

Ah well , enough. All done for a few months...whether Morgan continues in charge , what changes may be made in personnel - and how much priority this stuff will be given going forward (comparatively less , I hope!) we will see in time. On with the red ball game !

And two good t20 matches left to enjoy with a bit less emotional loading for England fans...

Excellent posts throughout the night (too many to reply to all of them), so will take some points from this and others below;

- I would disagree that the game was all but done when Woakes came onto bowl Alfie - 20 runs off the final two overs, while in the favour of the batting side is certainly defendable. Especially as Neesham had just been dismissed too. For as good as Woakes has been in the powerplay this tournament, he bowled 3 overs at the death for 57 runs (7 sixes against in 18 balls!) in the 6 games. Morgan I think did his best to hide him from it through the tournament, but ultimately they are truly abysmal figures - and was my fear with him in this format (albeit I would note the other options for his spot was really Willey, and he isn't a much better death option).

- You make a good point on Rashid. I will come onto this more in my forward view in the future post (which apparently JDizzle is subscribed for Smile ), but I'd say ultimately a disappointing tournament for him by his standards.

- Obviously I quite enjoy T20 cricket, especially at international level (I find franchise stuff hard to keep up with fully, so often dip in and out). Different types of skills required, but I also like that it does give an opportunity for (in my eyes) upsets/big swings to occur more often, simply because of the shorter nature of the game. The other thing I like about it is the opportunity it is giving lesser/associate nations to compete on the biggest stage and against the so called "top" nations. I wish there was this opportunity afforded to them more often in test cricket!!
Alfie - you made a note in your other post "but a part of me asks whether (given the unpredictability of results) it has been wise for England to invest so much effort in the format - sometimes to the detriment of the Test Team ? Just a thought..." - do you have any expanded thoughts on that? I struggle to see the link between the t20 side impacting on the test sides fortunes massively, there is a few cross format players but nowhere near what used to be?   Hug

- Kingraf's point about the number of ICC events upcoming is certainly a good one - definitely something that made yesterday such a big game for me was that this was 5 years since the opportunity to revenge the Stokes defeat. Why I am so over it already, is because in 11/12 months time we'll be having another one! As ever, where the £££ goes then the ICC et al will follow at all costs...plus they've got to give perennial ICC event chokers, Virat Kohli's India, as many opportunities as possible to win one Whistle Whistle Whistle
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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 12:09 pm

I think the game was lost by the point when Woakes came on to bowl (and Rashid the over before). England were crushed in the field having controlled the game for 36 overs before Jordan's aberration lost the game. England were never recovering from that and even if Woakes only conceded 5/6 off his over, it was either Jordan or Moeen for the 20th over and they wouldn't have been able to defend 15 runs.

I don't expect much in the way of changes to the core of the ODI/T20 team, including Morgan's captaincy, until the 2023 ODI World Cup has finished. Next year's T20 World Cup represents a greater chance for England with conditions more to their liking; hopefully England will have a full-strength team for that tournament!

Pakistan v Australia. I might be jinxing Pakistan, but they're huge favourites for this one. Like England yesterday. That went well.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 1:45 pm

Both teams unchanged. Australia win the toss and field first.

I think Pakistan's batting is very vulnerable. They tend to accumulate in the first ten, then explode in the final ten. It's worked so far. Will it do so again?

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Post by Afro Thu 11 Nov 2021, 1:57 pm

Not sure I'd have Pakistan as huge favourites, but I would be leaning towards them.

After the toss, bookies have them at 11/10 with Australia 8/11, so I have popped my hard earned pennies on a Pakistan win.

Looking forward to this game
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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 2:29 pm

It's working so far for Pakistan - 47/0 after the PP and well set. Just a couple of tough chances in the field for Australia, nothing to get too excited about for them.

Time for Zampa. Surely Pakistan will negotiate the spin well.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 2:49 pm

Babar falling to the last ball of the 10th leaves things rather well balanced at the halfway point of the innings...

Only one done so Pakistan can look to speed up ; but bowling second they will want a sizeable total. Need to get after Maxwell , I think.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 11 Nov 2021, 2:57 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
VTR wrote:I like kingraf's thoughts around always having always another chance. I'd put Champions Trophy, World T20 about the same, and there seems to be one of those about every 6 months!

One thing to say though, England are building up quite a number of failures from winning positions in the business end of tournaments. I think Gattings reverse sweep started the curse, but even in the last 10 years you have a Champions Trophy and World T20 final lost from winning positions, and now a semi final to add to that

Even in the 50 over world Cup, the top order choked and relied on Stokes and Buttler bailing them out. At which point do we factor in Morgans captaincy not being good enough in these situations?

Death bowling rather than Morgan's captaincy for me. Second T20 knockout game in a row we've gone into without adequate death bowling. Stokes isn't a death bowler - missed his mark 4 times in a row and got smashed. Jordan was a good death bowler who's effectiveness has been far more hit and miss since batsman got better at punishing yorkers just off the mark - got smashed.

I still think England were 15 runs short of where they needed to be with the bat given the batting heavy makeup of the side. 166 with a strong bowling attack is a decent total. If you've gone that batting heavy and have a good platform to attack then that's about par I'd say, definitely no more than par.

England's batsman often talk about "backing themselves to find a big over" when they have wickets in hand. England kept wickets in hand but couldn't find that match changing over. NZ kept wickets in hand and found that match winning over.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 11 Nov 2021, 2:59 pm

Pakistan have a good platform here but need to avoid getting a bit stagnate for too many overs as England did. I'd guess that Shoaib Malik and Asif Ali might come up the order ahead of Hafeez.

Finch has done well to hold 3 overs of Starc back until the 13th over.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 11 Nov 2021, 3:03 pm

Letting Maxwell bowl 3 overs for 20 runs against two right handers is gonna come back to hurt Pakistan here
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Post by eirebilly Thu 11 Nov 2021, 3:06 pm

Agree, wickets in hand and some big hitters still to come for Pakistan. Its time to go.
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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 3:08 pm

Looking a very similar situation to yesterday...going to be around 100 with six overs left.
Pakistan will want a few more than England finished up with but that might not be easy against these bowlers. Starc and Cummins each two left...

Good finish for Rizwan to that Hazlewood over though. 106/1 , Rizwan fifty.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 3:11 pm

Pakistan with a very strong platform, should back themselves to exceed 180 from here.

Cummins bowls a beamer...that'll help.

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Post by Taylorman Thu 11 Nov 2021, 3:12 pm

Hope we can go all the way in this one. We seem to find some very odd scenarios at the business end that keep ripping the final hurdles out of our reach. Great finish after thinking you’re gone at 14 or so overs.

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