World T20 discussion thread
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World T20 discussion thread
Blimey, Cross takes five fours off the sixth over. 48/1 after the PP, Scotland still in the game.
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Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.
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Congrats to NZ.
A NZ vs Pakistan final would be a lot of fun to watch.
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Hats off to NZ : thoroughly well deserved win. Never panicked under pressure ; backed themselves to come home at the end and did so decisively.
Reckon they might go on and win the cup from here.
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Well done Mitchell. He kept his head and was striking them clean! But Neesham won them that game, what an innings! 27 off 11 on a wicket everyone else struggled on - majestic hitting.
The loss of Archer and then Mills just too much to overcome.
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eirebilly wrote:Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.
Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.
Buttler's face during that over said it all to be honest.
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I did not like that to be honest. Very poor from Jos in my view.king_carlos wrote:eirebilly wrote:Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.
Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.
Buttler's face during that over said it all to be honest.
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England got the bowling part pretty much exactly right and had the game safely won...until Jordan's horrific over. There's no excusing that at this level. I'm not sure it was the right call to bowl Jordan for the 17th (I said so at the time) but it happened. And England lost.
Well done to New Zealand and to Mitchell in particular, who I said was one of the main batsmen to worry about. I'm not sure how good Neesham's innings was - he was served up lollipop after lollipop.
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Jordan will be hurting. Sympathy for him in that Neesham was in "the zone " ; but those wides showed he basically lost it under pressure and that's going to be hard to stomach.
Can't help wondering why Moeen didn't bowl at some point ; just to give England the option of letting one of their chosen bowlers not necessarily bowl all four. Jordan wasn't actually the one I'd have expected to be marmelized at the death , of course : but if Moeen had bowled as he has in the group games , maybe...
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eirebilly wrote:I did not like that to be honest. Very poor from Jos in my view.king_carlos wrote:eirebilly wrote:Again, i feel so sorry for Jordan. He has been amazing for England this tournament but as many on here, have said, he had that 1 over in him that would lose England a game and it has done so today. His one over of pure indiscipline gave the Black Caps all the impetus they required to win the game.
Well done New Zealand. Its hard not to like them.
Buttler's face during that over said it all to be honest.
They tried arm around the shoulder for the first half of the over to be fair. When someone bowls that many poor balls on the trot I can understand the keeper looking p**ed off as he passes the ball to cover.
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But they had them 110-4 chasing 167 with 24 balls left, with the overs to be bowled by three of their best mainline bowlers - and they lost with 6 balls to spare.
Unfortunately a total failure of death bowling from Jordan, Rashid and Woakes. A shame, but it is what it is
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We should know by now t20 finals are never over until the last ball. Perhaps Ben Stokes will have a comforting word or two with Jordan when next they meet...
Morgan still looks a bit stunned. Probably not looking forward to the inquest.
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So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.
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JDizzle wrote:Decent over from Boult to finish. Has to be Neesham.
160 would be about par with the dew factor so every run over that is crucial. And please don’t do a Santner in 2019 and not run off the final ball!
I'm a big fan of Boult (although not as big as Mrs Billy ). I readily accept he was a long way from his best today and too often sent down poor deliveries. However, what I still liked - and would contrast this with some of our bowlers towards the end - is that he never completely lost it or looked totally intimidated.
From a quick and sad statto check, 24 of the 40 runs he conceded came from the first 3 balls of each of his 4 overs. Balls 4 to 6 went for a combined total of 16 runs - that's still not great but shows he didn't fold in the face of deserved stick. If he had and lesser mortals would have done, we would probably have an England final to look forward to now whilst Duty would be receiving another pay out from his bookie.
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& That Ind was crap, left even lesser incentive......so to keep myself interested I decided to bet and picked NZ for the WC winner at 5 times the return, put $30 on them yesterday
And a bit on NZ for today's game too at 2.5 times return……for that keeps you genuinely excited and by taking a side in an otherwise neutral game
btw I don’t have a favorite but return were highest on NZ and in this format all 4 teams had a reasonable chance…inspite of Pak and Eng looking by far better than others.
Because the format sucks!
Was a good game….Eng batted well to keep wickets in hand…accelerated well with a 100 in last 10 to get to what I would rate as an above par score on a ground that was large and pitch not a flat Patta by any means
Eng bowled well….with pacers and their spinners did quite well too…Livingstone surprising all including himself….Eng’s fielding was good too….so what did Eng do wrong?
Basically Nothing
Just that the format sucks….. one 10 ball 27 cameo and most of those scored in 1 over of Jordan was enough for the all-round better & consistent team to be knocked off. The format does not reward consistency and if you are a good team and hang in there a flash of brilliance can help overcome the very-good/ all round superior side.
That’s why Test Cricket reigns Supreme & ODIs too give more space to consistency
If you do nitpicking you could say Morgan should have held Wood back for later…..but that’s just nitpicking
Or blame luck for those parried catches not going Eng’s way…..but that was brilliance that turned them into half chances…..those weren’t really catches
I hope Pak beats Aus tomm…..they have looked the imposing side
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Certainly I remember when England won this, it was of course good but didn't mean that much in the long term. Things like Ashes 2005, 2010/11, winning in India and of course winning the real World Cup are far more memorable
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Certainly I remember when England won this, it was of course good but didn't mean that much in the long term. Things like Ashes 2005, 2010/11, winning in India and of course winning the real World Cup are far more memorable
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JDizzle wrote:2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?
So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.
2022 World T20 in Australia as well. That host is a key part with Morgan. It skates under the radar a touch but he isn't great against the short ball. He hits pace very well when pitched up (as most do) but sides have figured out they can go short to him consistently. Opposition doing that more is a key part of his decline in form I think.
Malan likes pace on so in contrast Australia hosting will help him you'd imagine.
Rumours are that Root will put himself into the IPL auction for the coming year as well. I still think Root could be a terrific T20 player with more exposure in the format.
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JDizzle wrote:2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?
So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.
I think providing he wants too, and his form doesn't totally nosedive (I know he hasn't had the best 2021 but he didn't really get a proper bat in this tournament, and I'd back him to refind 2019 and 2020 form still) then he should be kept for both - his leadership on and off the field I really do think is crucial to this side, especially now with Bayliss gone (sorry but I don't think wet flannel Chris Silverwood is bringing much to the table to the ODI/T20i sides). Of course, if the batting really has gone then a tough conversation might need to be had...
Probably not the time for a full post mortem and look ahead to 2022 and 2023 just right now...but I do have some thoughts about who England might need to give a little elbow to the side (I believe it's coined "a Plunkett") and who they should be trying to integrate into the fold for both t20 and ODI squads in the coming year or two. Do think there needs to be a bit of a refresh/integration of some younger blood around the white ball circuit.
I'll bring some long form gibberish in the coming days once I've got over the disappointment of today.
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England now face a similar debate as the one we have where our captain was probably a capable batting option in these conditions, but questions about his hitting abilities on the massive Australian grounds persist. Similarly Eoin Morgan hasn't looked great against the short ball recently and you'd think in Australia it's probably the one thing you have to be smart against (although there's every chance the tournament needs to be truncated in terms of travel distances, at which point Victoria and I suppose New South Wales would be the sole viable options, and they're pretty flat decks with not much life).
Finally, maybe it's just me, but the over supply of ICC tournaments (if you include the WTC, there will basically be one every year until 2027) means that even if you don't win, instead of the heartbreak we felt in 1999, knowing there wouldn't be another chance for four years, it kinda just feels like my favourite football team not winning promotion last season, "we'll get it next year". How can I miss you if you won't be gone long enough to be valuable??
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Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:JDizzle wrote:2022 T20 World Cup and 2023 ODI World Cup I believe?
So I do wonder if that inquest involves asking Morgan what his plans are going forward. As it is now or never for a clean handover - anytime after this and it is a bit messy.
I think providing he wants too, and his form doesn't totally nosedive (I know he hasn't had the best 2021 but he didn't really get a proper bat in this tournament, and I'd back him to refind 2019 and 2020 form still) then he should be kept for both - his leadership on and off the field I really do think is crucial to this side, especially now with Bayliss gone (sorry but I don't think wet flannel Chris Silverwood is bringing much to the table to the ODI/T20i sides). Of course, if the batting really has gone then a tough conversation might need to be had...
Probably not the time for a full post mortem and look ahead to 2022 and 2023 just right now...but I do have some thoughts about who England might need to give a little elbow to the side (I believe it's coined "a Plunkett") and who they should be trying to integrate into the fold for both t20 and ODI squads in the coming year or two. Do think there needs to be a bit of a refresh/integration of some younger blood around the white ball circuit.
I'll bring some long form gibberish in the coming days once I've got over the disappointment of today.
Looking forward to this - England are a sneaky old side, so be interesting to see any suggestions about potential new blood. .
Buttler - 31
Bairstow - 32
Malan - 34
Moeen -34
Livingstone - 28
Morgan - 35
Billings - 30
Woakes - 32
Jordan - 33
Rashid - 33
Wood - 31
Stokes - 30
Root - 30
Roy - 31
So the entire side that played today was over 30 bar LL. No suggestion anyone will immediately fall off a cliff, but a lot will go at similar times so definitely useful having some succession planning in place.
I know Leamon thinks having experience is crucial to winning WCs. But seems counter intuitive to me. You get loads of caps by being good, you don’t get good by having loads of caps. But if that is their attitude, hard to see any wholesale changes (not that I think they are needed) pre 22 and 23.
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I know many don't rate him but I think a fit Sam Curran is a better option than Willey as well. I also rate Willey but I think Curran is a less limited hitter and has a bit more flexibility to when he bowls.
The batting is so strong that it will be tough for anyone to break in but I'd certainly hope to someone like Tom Banton, Phil Salt or Will Jacks coming into the squad regularly. Jacks boundary hitting stats in particular are very impressive. I also think Zak Crawley has a lot of potential in T20.
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No secret that it has never been high on my list - though I have to admit I have quite enjoyed this tournament. As KP_fan says , it is a game in which the result can be determined by a few moments of drama , rather than settled by consistent play over the course of the match. Where I think he errs though is in claiming that this means it "sucks" ; or that it means the better team can lose. It is the nature of the game : put crudely - as West Indies demonstrated last time - the key is usually seeing who can hit the most sixes rather than testing all the skills of a cricketer. Doesn't mean its rubbish ; but one reason why I would always rate it a lesser game than Tests , or even 50 over stuff. Sill a valid competition...and the better team on the day at executing the required skills will generally win - as they did last night.
As I say , I have enjoyed it ; but a part of me asks whether (given the unpredictability of results) it has been wise for England to invest so much effort in the format - sometimes to the detriment of the Test Team ? Just a thought...
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He wasn't the only one though. Rashid (generally seen as England's best bowler in this format) bowled rather poorly throughout , I thought. Went for plenty and was arguably lucky not to go for a few more as he missed his mark quite a lot - and was surprisingly shown up by the comparatively unheralded Livingstone. Also think Morgan didn't get his timing right around Rashid : did he need to bowl in the power play , when the pace men were doing so well early ? Was it wise to save him for the 18th over ?
And I am still a little mystified as to why Moeen wasn't used : he had been highly effective - and used regularly - in the previous games ; and I have had trouble thinking of any reason why he would be deemed a particular risk in last night's circumstances. Was it that Morgan thought the game was basically safe from halfway and it was best not to tinker with Plan A ? I may be wrong and it might have made no difference ; but I am a big fan of having a bit of flexibility in a contest where a few balls can dictate the outcome. I thought Morgan was too.
Not really wanting to criticise Woakes who was truly excellent early. Game was essentially over when he took the ball for the 19th and I reckon they were all a bit shell shocked by then. But with hindsight (and even a thought at the time ) it might have been better to let him bowl out at the start and rely on Wood at the death as being unlikely to do any worse. If he had taken another wicket...
Nitpicking there I confess. The perils of having only three seam options and basically not trusting one of them in the crucial moments : I note that Wood was the most economical of the bowlers apart from Livingstone despite one bad over. He may well have been slaughtered at the end but if you start with that belief why was he in the side over Curran or Willey ?
Ah well , enough. All done for a few months...whether Morgan continues in charge , what changes may be made in personnel - and how much priority this stuff will be given going forward (comparatively less , I hope!) we will see in time. On with the red ball game !
And two good t20 matches left to enjoy with a bit less emotional loading for England fans...
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One thing to say though, England are building up quite a number of failures from winning positions in the business end of tournaments. I think Gattings reverse sweep started the curse, but even in the last 10 years you have a Champions Trophy and World T20 final lost from winning positions, and now a semi final to add to that
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The negatives for England was actually there batting for me. With plenty left in the hutch, they did not go on the attack early enough. Both Moeen and Malan will get plaudits for their innings' (rightly so) but I feel that they actually hampered England when the foot should have been put on the gas.
On to today, I really want Pakistan to win as they have been the best team but i have a feeling it is going to be a New Zealand Australia final on Sunday.
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VTR wrote:I like kingraf's thoughts around always having always another chance. I'd put Champions Trophy, World T20 about the same, and there seems to be one of those about every 6 months!
One thing to say though, England are building up quite a number of failures from winning positions in the business end of tournaments. I think Gattings reverse sweep started the curse, but even in the last 10 years you have a Champions Trophy and World T20 final lost from winning positions, and now a semi final to add to that
Even in the 50 over world Cup, the top order choked and relied on Stokes and Buttler bailing them out. At which point do we factor in Morgans captaincy not being good enough in these situations?
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alfie wrote:As to the match , apart from (obviously) praising NZ , especially Neesham , Mitchell and Conway for the way they revived the innings from an awful start ; we shouldn't put all the blame on Jordan. His over was a shocker , no question : not sure why he melted down so badly , given his experience ; though I do also wonder whether he wasn't hampered rather than helped by too many non-bowlers surrounding him with advice in the middle of it all. He had actually had a pretty good run in the group games so it surprised me that he performed as badly as he did this time.
He wasn't the only one though. Rashid (generally seen as England's best bowler in this format) bowled rather poorly throughout , I thought. Went for plenty and was arguably lucky not to go for a few more as he missed his mark quite a lot - and was surprisingly shown up by the comparatively unheralded Livingstone. Also think Morgan didn't get his timing right around Rashid : did he need to bowl in the power play , when the pace men were doing so well early ? Was it wise to save him for the 18th over ?
And I am still a little mystified as to why Moeen wasn't used : he had been highly effective - and used regularly - in the previous games ; and I have had trouble thinking of any reason why he would be deemed a particular risk in last night's circumstances. Was it that Morgan thought the game was basically safe from halfway and it was best not to tinker with Plan A ? I may be wrong and it might have made no difference ; but I am a big fan of having a bit of flexibility in a contest where a few balls can dictate the outcome. I thought Morgan was too.
Not really wanting to criticise Woakes who was truly excellent early. Game was essentially over when he took the ball for the 19th and I reckon they were all a bit shell shocked by then. But with hindsight (and even a thought at the time ) it might have been better to let him bowl out at the start and rely on Wood at the death as being unlikely to do any worse. If he had taken another wicket...
Nitpicking there I confess. The perils of having only three seam options and basically not trusting one of them in the crucial moments : I note that Wood was the most economical of the bowlers apart from Livingstone despite one bad over. He may well have been slaughtered at the end but if you start with that belief why was he in the side over Curran or Willey ?
Ah well , enough. All done for a few months...whether Morgan continues in charge , what changes may be made in personnel - and how much priority this stuff will be given going forward (comparatively less , I hope!) we will see in time. On with the red ball game !
And two good t20 matches left to enjoy with a bit less emotional loading for England fans...
Excellent posts throughout the night (too many to reply to all of them), so will take some points from this and others below;
- I would disagree that the game was all but done when Woakes came onto bowl Alfie - 20 runs off the final two overs, while in the favour of the batting side is certainly defendable. Especially as Neesham had just been dismissed too. For as good as Woakes has been in the powerplay this tournament, he bowled 3 overs at the death for 57 runs (7 sixes against in 18 balls!) in the 6 games. Morgan I think did his best to hide him from it through the tournament, but ultimately they are truly abysmal figures - and was my fear with him in this format (albeit I would note the other options for his spot was really Willey, and he isn't a much better death option).
- You make a good point on Rashid. I will come onto this more in my forward view in the future post (which apparently JDizzle is subscribed for ), but I'd say ultimately a disappointing tournament for him by his standards.
- Obviously I quite enjoy T20 cricket, especially at international level (I find franchise stuff hard to keep up with fully, so often dip in and out). Different types of skills required, but I also like that it does give an opportunity for (in my eyes) upsets/big swings to occur more often, simply because of the shorter nature of the game. The other thing I like about it is the opportunity it is giving lesser/associate nations to compete on the biggest stage and against the so called "top" nations. I wish there was this opportunity afforded to them more often in test cricket!!
Alfie - you made a note in your other post "but a part of me asks whether (given the unpredictability of results) it has been wise for England to invest so much effort in the format - sometimes to the detriment of the Test Team ? Just a thought..." - do you have any expanded thoughts on that? I struggle to see the link between the t20 side impacting on the test sides fortunes massively, there is a few cross format players but nowhere near what used to be?
- Kingraf's point about the number of ICC events upcoming is certainly a good one - definitely something that made yesterday such a big game for me was that this was 5 years since the opportunity to revenge the Stokes defeat. Why I am so over it already, is because in 11/12 months time we'll be having another one! As ever, where the £££ goes then the ICC et al will follow at all costs...plus they've got to give perennial ICC event chokers, Virat Kohli's India, as many opportunities as possible to win one
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I don't expect much in the way of changes to the core of the ODI/T20 team, including Morgan's captaincy, until the 2023 ODI World Cup has finished. Next year's T20 World Cup represents a greater chance for England with conditions more to their liking; hopefully England will have a full-strength team for that tournament!
Pakistan v Australia. I might be jinxing Pakistan, but they're huge favourites for this one. Like England yesterday. That went well.
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I think Pakistan's batting is very vulnerable. They tend to accumulate in the first ten, then explode in the final ten. It's worked so far. Will it do so again?
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After the toss, bookies have them at 11/10 with Australia 8/11, so I have popped my hard earned pennies on a Pakistan win.
Looking forward to this game
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Time for Zampa. Surely Pakistan will negotiate the spin well.
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Only one done so Pakistan can look to speed up ; but bowling second they will want a sizeable total. Need to get after Maxwell , I think.
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Soul Requiem wrote:VTR wrote:I like kingraf's thoughts around always having always another chance. I'd put Champions Trophy, World T20 about the same, and there seems to be one of those about every 6 months!
One thing to say though, England are building up quite a number of failures from winning positions in the business end of tournaments. I think Gattings reverse sweep started the curse, but even in the last 10 years you have a Champions Trophy and World T20 final lost from winning positions, and now a semi final to add to that
Even in the 50 over world Cup, the top order choked and relied on Stokes and Buttler bailing them out. At which point do we factor in Morgans captaincy not being good enough in these situations?
Death bowling rather than Morgan's captaincy for me. Second T20 knockout game in a row we've gone into without adequate death bowling. Stokes isn't a death bowler - missed his mark 4 times in a row and got smashed. Jordan was a good death bowler who's effectiveness has been far more hit and miss since batsman got better at punishing yorkers just off the mark - got smashed.
I still think England were 15 runs short of where they needed to be with the bat given the batting heavy makeup of the side. 166 with a strong bowling attack is a decent total. If you've gone that batting heavy and have a good platform to attack then that's about par I'd say, definitely no more than par.
England's batsman often talk about "backing themselves to find a big over" when they have wickets in hand. England kept wickets in hand but couldn't find that match changing over. NZ kept wickets in hand and found that match winning over.
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Re: World T20 discussion thread
Finch has done well to hold 3 overs of Starc back until the 13th over.
king_carlos- Posts : 12666
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eirebilly likes this post
Re: World T20 discussion thread
Good Golly I'm Olly- Tractor Boy
- Posts : 51246
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Re: World T20 discussion thread
eirebilly- Posts : 24807
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Age : 53
Location : Milan
Re: World T20 discussion thread
Pakistan will want a few more than England finished up with but that might not be easy against these bowlers. Starc and Cummins each two left...
Good finish for Rizwan to that Hazlewood over though. 106/1 , Rizwan fifty.
alfie- Posts : 21624
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Re: World T20 discussion thread
Cummins bowls a beamer...that'll help.
Duty281- Posts : 34252
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Re: World T20 discussion thread
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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