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World T20 discussion thread

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Post by Duty281 Wed 03 Nov 2021, 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Blimey, Cross takes five fours off the sixth over. 48/1 after the PP, Scotland still in the game.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:33 pm

Big 15 run over there, the ball was sprayed all over the place. Got to get Shaheen in for the 19th. They have to take at least one wicket in this penultimate over.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:33 pm

I'd give Afridi the 19th or it could be over before he gets the ball...

22 needed. Aussies marginal favourite now.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:34 pm

Winviz changed quickly Smile

Always felt Hassan was the weak link.

Afridi needs a special over...

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:39 pm

Oh dear, has Hasan Ali dropped the match?

Probably, as Wade takes the next one for six. Amazing shot. Pakistan fans silent for the first time.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:39 pm

Blimey ! Hassan has just dropped the Cup !

Six to follow and this is just about done...

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:40 pm

And another. This one is done. Hasan Ali has taken the Chris Jordan role.

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Post by Pal Joey Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:41 pm

That's the way to finish.
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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:42 pm

Three straight sixes to win it. clap

Pakistan have done an England. They should never have lost it from the position they were in. Two pretty mediocre teams are in the final, that's T20 for you.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:42 pm

Yes all over now...Wade the finisher and nothing Afridi can do about it...

Well done Australia !

Toss tomorrow might be crucial. That and whoever Duty selects to win ... I hear both captains are offering him money to get off their side Smile

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Post by VTR Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:43 pm

Really similar to yesterday's game, both in terms of the team batting first maybe not going early enough (or not being allowed to), then something that looked defendable going into the last 4 overs being absolutely destroyed

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Post by Jeff Navarro Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:43 pm

I don’t really find this t20 stuff as entertaining as the 2019 World Cup but that finish was ridiculous.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:44 pm

alfie wrote:Yes all over now...Wade the finisher and nothing Afridi can do about it...

Well done Australia !

Toss tomorrow might be crucial. That and whoever Duty selects to win ... I hear both captains are offering him money to get off their side Smile

Final's on Sunday, calm down! Whoever wins the toss, though, should win the game. It's a close 50-50 matchup.

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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:45 pm

Can't have that "mediocre " sledge , Duty. They've been the better teams when the important games were played. Both deserve to be playing off.

Sure they both have flaws. But frankly , so do the two losing semi finalists.

Whoever wins on the weekend will be worthy.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:48 pm

alfie wrote:Can't have that "mediocre " sledge , Duty.  They've been the better teams when the important games were played. Both deserve to be playing off.

Sure they both have flaws. But frankly , so do the two losing semi finalists.

Whoever wins on the weekend will be worthy.

It wasn't quite intended as a sledge, I do think they are both mediocre T20 teams. Both Pakistan and England choked the semi-finals away - an over and a drop from Hasan Ali cost Pakistan, an over from Chris Jordan cost England.

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Post by Pal Joey Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:Three straight sixes to win it. clap

Pakistan have done an England. They should never have lost it from the position they were in. Two pretty mediocre teams are in the final, that's T20 for you.

The two best teams made it into the final. The rising stars of white ball cricket and the team that knows how to win white ball finals. Australia have peaked at the right time. It should be an entertaining final... either way I'll be happy to see NZ or Australia win. I can't really lose can I? Smile
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Post by alfie Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:50 pm

Sunday , of course. Just as well ! PJ , and I , need some sleep...


Any game between the top six sides in this competition is basically fifty-fifty. Unfortunately the toss does look to be a bit more advantageous than it ideally should. But at least we can be confident Duckworth Lewis won't be needed Smile

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Post by Pal Joey Thu 11 Nov 2021, 5:58 pm

alfie wrote:Sunday , of course. Just as well ! PJ , and I , need some sleep...


Any game between the top six sides in this competition is basically fifty-fifty. Unfortunately the toss does look to be a bit more advantageous than it ideally should. But at least we can be confident Duckworth Lewis won't be needed Smile

I'm staying up since I had a sleep earlier, alfie. Have to go into town in about 2 hours. Miserable and very wet here... that's why I think the Ashes will be very interesting. No end in sight to this La Niña event.

Yes, we all know winning the toss pretty much wins it. Then in situations like this match, only 3 or 4 balls at the right time can swing the match. At one point with 5 overs to go Australia were on 18% chance of winning... then an over later they had swung it back to 56%. That's the nature of these games... as Guildford'd Surrey man "Finchy" is so eloquently explaining in the post match summary.


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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 11 Nov 2021, 6:43 pm

The dew factor has ruined the tournament, bowl first in the final and you win, that simple.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 7:26 pm

They should have had the knockout games on in the afternoon slot, though I guess that wouldn't have been as good for the TV ratings.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 11 Nov 2021, 7:29 pm

So the Australian side that Eng had pulped and Butler made Mince meat of.....goes into the finals beating Pak..The Rock Stars of the show thus far.

Unlike Eng yesterday....Pak were undone by nerves and " Son you dropped the Cup" level of enormity muffed catch

The great Trans-Tasman Rivalry now in the final .......My pick is NZ.. they remain cool & deliver to or above potential when stakes are high
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Post by king_carlos Thu 11 Nov 2021, 7:56 pm

From a first round filled with very good games through the Super 12 and now the semis it has been a terrific tournament with some fantastic cricket being played.

It's New Zealand's 3rd World Cup final in 6 years. I really hope they get over the line this time. Their bowling heavy strategy has been very effective thus far.

Once England were missing so many key players and India had bowling issues with Hardik and Bhuvi below 100% there weren't any sides in the tournament that I didn't look at and think, "they have a significant flaw".

- NZs batting depth still falls off a cliff after Neesham
- Australia don't really have a fifth bowler
- England had one strong death bowler with Mills and none without
- India had no 6th bowler without Hardik and lacked PP threat with Bhuvi struggling
- Pakistan's death bowling being yorker dependent meant it was very much if they miss they'll go with how batsman now punish yorkers that are fractionally wayward

I think it's been a tournament with a lot of good teams without any absolute standout. A tournament with many good but flawed sides having two good but flawed sides in the final seems a fair enough ending.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 11 Nov 2021, 8:13 pm

It’s going to be a long old winter of the Aussies winning cricket games isn’t it?

Thankfully my doomsday scenario bet comes in and makes me richer for this development.

We can all kid ourselves into thinking this will be NZ’s time, but we all know how this ends (and I see Conway is out so it’s already happening)
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Post by Duty281 Thu 11 Nov 2021, 8:53 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:It’s going to be a long old winter of the Aussies winning cricket games isn’t it?

Thankfully my doomsday scenario bet comes in and makes me richer for this development.

We can all kid ourselves into thinking this will be NZ’s time, but we all know how this ends (and I see Conway is out so it’s already happening)

It's going to be a super-over, isn't it? We're going to see a tied super over, so there'll be another super over (also tied), before NZ lose on the third super over. Like England losing a penalty shoot-out.

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Post by VTR Thu 11 Nov 2021, 9:25 pm

My perception of NZ is whenever they have a good chance of doing something special against Australia, they pretty much fail to turn up, across all formats. I want them to win but just can't see it

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Post by kingraf Thu 11 Nov 2021, 11:30 pm

Funny that there's a lot of good analysis happening here for why teams have lost, but only four matches between the Tier 1 countries this tournament have been won by the team batting first. So I don't know how much you can actually glean from this tournament other than that winning the toss is cool.
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Post by king_carlos Fri 12 Nov 2021, 12:47 am

5 games between tier 1 countries wasn't it?

Still the same point remains true. The dew is having far too big an effect on the outcome. As usual I expect crickets administration will do what it usually does when there is a clear and obvious issue. Nothing.

Usually I'm an optimistic cricket fan. I don't see the point of following sports I don't enjoy following! When it comes to matters such as this cricket is painfully slow to react though. We've been using the same white Kookaburra balls for ODIs for decades despite them being abysmal cricket balls. Painting the leather rather than dying it means the balls deteriorate too quick for a one day game yet we persist with sticky plaster solutions like a ball for each end, changing balls regularly, etc instead of just accepting that white cricket balls are absolute dog s*** and putting funding into research for an alternative that works.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 12 Nov 2021, 12:51 am

Also worth noting that whilst winning batting first is tough good sides have been beaten whilst batting second. SA convincingly beat England after losing the toss for instance.

So I thinks it's still reasonable to analyse the games whilst doing so in perspective of how significant the toss has been. Toss aside I think it's true that if England had pushed on a bit earlier with the bat given they went in batting heavy, or had at least serviceable death bowling, then they could have won that game having lost the toss. Alas neither were the case frustratingly.

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Post by alfie Fri 12 Nov 2021, 3:52 am

Yeah obviously the toss is "big" ... but I'd suggest in both these semis the results came down more to the fielding team getting a bit rattled in the closing stages. Jordan would usually have made it a lot harder for the batsmen than he did on Wednesday ; Hassan was well off his best late yesterday in his last over.
Whether the chasing team would have won without those big overs we can't be sure : after all Woakes - and Afridi - got smashed into the stands at the end and in each case there was an over to spare. But I do suspect that was largely down in each case to the bowler knowing he had an almost impossible task to leave the last bowler enough runs to defend. In this game it seems no matter who is bowling , sixes are inevitable at the end. The key is making sure the chasing team have too much ground to make up and self destruct in trying : probably means you need to have only your "best" bowlers operating for perhaps the last six . Gives a problem ; as when can you get rid of the more vulnerable ones ? Best to have five perfect bowlers , eh Smile

Having no real weakness in their bowling group is NZ's best chance of winning the final - Australia have a slightly dodgy fifth bowler combination , although Pakistan failed to take it down.
But they are a bit short on batting - and shorter now with Conway out of the final due to a silly injury.
All might come down to who holds their catches.

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Post by alfie Fri 12 Nov 2021, 3:55 am

Duty281 wrote:They should have had the knockout games on in the afternoon slot, though I guess that wouldn't have been as good for the TV ratings.

I do agree with that. On both counts. It is basically a TV show after all.

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Post by alfie Fri 12 Nov 2021, 4:05 am

Pal Joey wrote:
alfie wrote:Sunday , of course. Just as well ! PJ , and I , need some sleep...


Any game between the top six sides in this competition is basically fifty-fifty. Unfortunately the toss does look to be a bit more advantageous than it ideally should. But at least we can be confident Duckworth Lewis won't be needed Smile

I'm staying up since I had a sleep earlier, alfie. Have to go into town in about 2 hours. Miserable and very wet here... that's why I think the Ashes will be very interesting. No end in sight to this La Niña event.

Yes, we all know winning the toss pretty much wins it. Then in situations like this match, only 3 or 4 balls at the right time can swing the match. At one point with 5 overs to go Australia were on 18% chance of winning... then an over later they had swung it back to 56%. That's the nature of these games... as Guildford'd Surrey man "Finchy" is so eloquently explaining in the post match summary.

Trust you enjoyed that finish , PJ. And get a chance to catch up sleep at some point...

Wet and miserable here too. Plus our roof has sprung a leak. And worse than that our first club cricket match for 8 months , scheduled for
tomorrow , looks certain to be rained out Sad

I never subscribed to the 18% chance thing . As long as Stoinis and Wade were in it was always only going to take one big over to bring the chase back on terms - and in these wild finishes the nerves always seem to get the fielding side more (perhaps because the batsmen simply have no alternative to going for everything so don't have time to worry !)

Hope for a good final. Both skippers practicing their two-up skills ...

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Post by kingraf Fri 12 Nov 2021, 5:53 am

The toss isn't a magic spell. Things like poor bowling overs at the death, and tight fielding are all baked in when assessing the advantages of bowling first. There was a time when you would bat first and ask a team to hunt down the target, because the idea was that the pressure on batsmen to chase was greater than the pressure on bowlers - to go with other factors, like pitches used to degrade a lot more previously. Like al sports though, cricket, especially white ball cricket has discarded the quackery of sports psychology (I respect sports psychology, to be clear - I mean more psychology in people whose qualification seemed to be they played the game) for cold hard data. Especially in T20, the advantage of knowing exactly how fast you have to bat, the advantage of not being at the mercy of Duckworth/Lewis, the advantage of not having to deal with dew in the desert. Then of course, from a game theory perspective, a team's best batsman can theoretically be at bat for every single ball while their best bowler can theoretically only bowl 20% of the ball. In a game which is more leaned towards the batsman to begin with, the equation will always favour the batting side when both sides know exactly what needs to be done to win. Of course the game is played on the pitch and not on paper, so the side defending the total will always have a chance especially if they have legitimately class bowlers, but the data is pretty clear.
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Post by sirfredperry Fri 12 Nov 2021, 1:12 pm

I agree that there's not much pressure on the batters at the end - even more so if the required runrate looks out of reach.

In those circumstances no one is going to get stick for being caught on the boundary going for the necessary six.

In both semis, as well as the last T20 final, the side batting second looked to have too steep a mountain to climb. But all these guys are big hitters and a few 6s in a row does wonders for the runrate.

You feel in same ways the fielding side would have more chance if there were FEWER runs to play with at the end. If there's a huge target, the tactics are plain for the batting side - just whack it.

But what if they had, say, two wickets in hand and needed seven, say, off the last over. Do you whack it, nudge it, wait for the bad ball?

As for Sunday's final, I think neutrals may well hope for a NZ win but realists would reckon Australia will triumph.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 12 Nov 2021, 1:59 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:(and I see Conway is out so it’s already happening)

Blimey, missing a World Cup final because he punched his bat in anger. That's a mammoth blow to NZ losing one of their more illustrious batsmen.

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Post by Afro Fri 12 Nov 2021, 2:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:(and I see Conway is out so it’s already happening)

he punched his bat in anger. .

I believe he had just heard news that he wasn't going back to Somerset, so you can't blame the man.
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Post by Duty281 Sat 13 Nov 2021, 10:36 pm

Final is tomorrow. I think I've identified the key things that both sides need to do if they are to be lifting the trophy.

For New Zealand they have to win the toss and choose to field first. If they do this then they'll be strong favourites.

For Australia they have to win the toss and choose to field first. If they do this then they'll be strong favourites.

I think that's covered everything. I hope New Zealand get over the line.

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Post by GSC Sun 14 Nov 2021, 1:35 pm

Congrats to Australia
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Nov 2021, 1:37 pm

GSC wrote:Congrats to Australia

6 tosses won out of 7, the one they lost was the England game. The asterix toss won champions 2021. Fair play Whistle
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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Nov 2021, 1:47 pm

NZ need to put 175+ on the board. Not sure if that's possible without Conway.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 14 Nov 2021, 1:57 pm

If I were a betting man (and fortunately for my finances I'm not) I would have gone for Australia, notwithstanding the toss.

Australia would seem to have more big hitters and I reckoned that would enable them to post too big a target or, if required, chase successfully. Also, Conway missing for New Zealand is a substantial self-inflicted blow. Only one player but the number 4 bat and keeper - potentially disruptive to the whole side as I felt about Roy and England for the semi.

New Zealand's best chance probably rests with Australia's fifth bowler combo. Important for Finchy as to how and when he uses that.

That said, hoping I'm wrong and the Kiwis win. It would certainly be overdue and much deserved.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:31 pm

Someone tell Williamson this isn’t the ODI World Cup final
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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:35 pm

It was a decent start from NZ, but since losing Mitchell the innings has been in slow-motion. Ten an over from here just to get 160.

Marsh into the attack, Kiwis have to go after him.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:43 pm

New Zealand can you PLEASE live the game love the game for a bit

This is a pathetic “effort” so far
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Post by alfie Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:50 pm

All gone pretty well to plan for Australia so far...toss won , subdued start by NZ ...

Agree with Guildford Conway's absence was always going to be a big blow to NZ ; but I guess with on,y one down at halfway it may not matter as much : think the hitters are lined up to follow from here anyway.

Williamson going up a gear or two now though...Starc getting a bit of tap this over ! Nineteen runs. - useful.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:51 pm

NZ play the game to make 160. They don’t give themselves the chance, on these pitches, to make 200. It works for them to a degree, but it doesn’t give you much margin for error!

Having said that, Williamson takes 19 from Starc. That looks like the signal it is time to go.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:54 pm

28 (35) - your 2016 World Cup semi final, Ajinkya Rahane memorial innings brought to you by Martin Guptill
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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Nov 2021, 2:54 pm

I like Simon Doull, but asking whether that shot from Guptill necessary after the big over - you are 1 down in 12th over and Guptill is 28 off 34. If anything it was necessary a few overs ago!

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Nov 2021, 3:06 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:28 (35) - your 2016 World Cup semi final, Ajinkya Rahane memorial innings brought to you by Martin Guptill

Very un-Guptill ,that innings. Not really what NZ wanted . Batting hasn't looked too easy ; but I suppose the second innings will give the lie to that .

Still it's a final and we can at least hope for some twists and turns before its done. Rather be in the Australian dressing room at the moment though...

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Post by Duty281 Sun 14 Nov 2021, 3:11 pm

They've got a good platform here New Zealand. Ten an over equals 164, 12s pushes it to 174. If Williamson bats through and one/both of Phillips/Neesham lands some big shots then they could push it over 180. Australia haven't bowled that well so far and are under some pressure, especially Starc after his atrocious over earlier.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Nov 2021, 3:12 pm

Phillips gets a couple away from Zampa’s last - but another excellent day for the Aussie leggie. Improved beyond measure.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 14 Nov 2021, 3:16 pm

Okay, I didn’t factor Kane turning into Dre Russell! 446 off Starc - at least one was off the middle of the bat!

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