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World T20 discussion thread

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Post by Duty281 Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Blimey, Cross takes five fours off the sixth over. 48/1 after the PP, Scotland still in the game.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:16 pm

I can’t believe there are seam bowlers at the death still trying the Yorker strategy in this tournament on these wickets.
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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:19 pm

22 off Starc's third... Williamson rather fancies him it seems Smile

Maybe won't bowl his fourth ? Would they risk another over from Maxwell or Marsh ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:21 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I can’t believe there are seam bowlers at the death still trying the Yorker strategy in this tournament on these wickets.

Cummins bowls it into the wicket with varied pace, no boundaries and only 8 runs. Not rocket science!
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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:22 pm

This is good from Cummins though...just a bunch of singles. He's got another over left too.

Think NZ need a really big finish from the last three ; but they've certainly put the hammer down rather effectively since the drink break.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:26 pm

Phillips gone. Didn't quite get going like the other night - in fact no one but Williamson has seemed to really get into the groove in this innings.

He's sort of covering for the others though Smile

Top spell from Hazlewood...and he's got the Big Wicket !

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:34 pm

Blimey...thought Neesham was run out for sure then ! Slick running.

162 and Starc will be glad he's not got Williamson to bowl at...

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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:43 pm

That's a good score. 50-50, maybe NZ slightly ahead. They've done exceptionally well to score that high while missing Conway. Williamson's innings deserves to be match-winning...Starc's figures deserve to be match-losing.

A team as bad as this Australia side do not deserve to be lifting any trophies, so come on Kiwis close it out.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:43 pm

Good last over for Starc. 172 , eh ?

Wasn't enough for Pakistan the other night but it's something to bowl at .

Williamson innings was immense ; Hazlewood and Zampa might have done enough to set their team up for a win . Think we have a contest at least.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:45 pm

Meanwhile some T20 World Cup qualifiers for next year's event are being played at the same time. Canada made 245/1, Panama 34/7 in reply. Oh Canada, indeed.

Bookmakers have both teams in this final at 10/11.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:That's a good score. 50-50, maybe NZ slightly ahead. They've done exceptionally well to score that high while missing Conway. Williamson's innings deserves to be match-winning...Starc's figures deserve to be match-losing.

A team as bad as this Australia side do not deserve to be lifting any trophies, so come on Kiwis close it out.

You're still flogging this "Aussie team is rubbish " line , Duty ? I know you rated them behind West Indies and Bangladesh but surely they've done enough now to show they are a bit better than you thought ?

They've got some flaws but I honestly can't call a team featuring those bowlers (despite Starc having a shocker tonight) plus Warner , Smith and some very useful t20 specialists "bad". Apart from the England debacle they've played fairly good to excellent cricket so give them some credit please...

Imagine most of the neutrals are cheering for NZ .

On with the game...

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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:02 pm

Aussies beat a Bangladesh and West Indies team who: a) didn't turn up for the tournament in any real sense; b) were already knocked out, defeated and had given up by the time they played Australia. Australia also beat a poor Sri Lanka team and won the semi-final through Pakistan's choke (well Hassan Ali). The only victory of note they've achieved was v South Africa.

Australia are a poor T20 team. It would be fitting if they won this tournament, I suppose, because it has been a disappointing World Cup with a handful of teams not turning up and the dew factor, but I hope NZ get over the line.

And NZ have their first with a tidy catch in the deep.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:09 pm

One for the excellent Boult...but this Warner/Marsh partnership is the key one , I think.
Marsh is off to a flyer against Milne. These two only have to bat a few overs to fix any run rate problems. NZ will need a couple more wickets early on to stay in the game.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:14 pm

Williamson is traditionally a pretty slow scorer, relatively, in T20s. I wonder if the fact he was able to score pretty freely was a clue the pitch is a bit better than some we have seen this WC? Aussies certainly off to a bit of a flyer.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:21 pm

43 in the power play so Aussies well ahead in the game. Suppose the spin overs now will determine whether this is going to be a walk in the park or a battle.

But after the bright start - and confidence in the finishers at the death - just sensible batting now ought to set this chase up pretty nicely. NZ really need a break from somewhere.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:24 pm

Mitch Marsh being Australia’s best T20 batter is a plot twist I didn’t see coming! Dismissive of Santner early on, would be very easy to pat him about and take 5/6 an over and put the pressure on the lower order. NZ need wickets quick.

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:29 pm

Got a feeling this is just about over already. These two are scoring without any real trouble ; plenty of batting to come - and of course the dreaded dew will be on its way shortly.

Still a hundred to get ; but unless they make some serious mistakes I reckon Australia are going to cruise this.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:30 pm

Yeah this is going to be a breeze
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:46 pm

Voting to ban the New Zealand cricket team from participating in finals until they start taking them seriously.
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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:48 pm

Some very good batting from Warner and Marsh , I should say. But it means this is ultimately going to be a bit of a disappointment as a final - and obviously for NZ .

Must say I thought 172 would offer a bit more of a challenge but these two are making it look easy. NZ bowling has been very good in this competition but (apart from Boult) is well off its best tonight; though perhaps the pressure exerted by these two batsmen has to take some credit for that.

Need what , 8 per over now ? Once upon a time that might have been considered tricky...

Warner gone but I reckon he's done his job thumbsup

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:53 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Voting to ban the New Zealand cricket team from participating in finals until they start taking them seriously.

Yeah if they had to go and knock England out they could at least have produced another big performance as an encore Smile

Still they won the WTC final and tied the 50 over thing only to get done in by a worse rule than the golden goal so can't really accuse them of choking ...

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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:01 pm

Actually Australia can probably thank England for this trophy : the group game made them realise they are half the team without the Mighty Mitchell Marsh Smile

Jokes aside he takes a lot of stick at times but he's been very good when it's counted here.

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Post by eirebilly Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:05 pm

Well done the Aussies, just on another level today clap
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Post by alfie Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:17 pm

Yes congrats Australia , emphatic victory Bubbly

Some consolation for the rugby , eh , PJ ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:18 pm

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Voting to ban the New Zealand cricket team from participating in finals until they start taking them seriously.

Yeah if they had to go and knock England out they could at least have produced another big performance as an encore Smile

Still they won the WTC final and tied the 50 over thing only to get done in by a worse rule than the golden goal so can't really accuse them of choking ...

the WTC was so un-presitigous they changed the rules about who qualifies half way through and changed the final venue to Southampton at the last minute and nobody cared. A Mickey Mouse competition at best

The 2019 final they spent the game not running off the final ball of the innings (in a tied game), stepping on boundaries and throwing the ball of peoples bats from 70 yards away for boundaries

Even Virat Kohli’s India would’ve been ashamed by these levels of final shambles
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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:21 pm

The most forgettable of competitions, if Australia had batted first, New Zealand win.

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Post by JDizzle Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:24 pm

I look forward to seeing how Australia’s focus on T20s will affect them this winter. England 3-1.

Well done Australia.

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Post by VTR Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:29 pm

Really poor final for the neutral. Not sure how much this was the toss, or NZ failing to turn up as they often seem to for some reason against Australia. Can't really argue that Australia were the deserved winners, even if a big factor was calling the toss correctly in the two key games

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Post by Pal Joey Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:32 pm

I'm just glad they got this baby monkey off their back. It's probably fitting that they added this trophy to the collection but the match was nothing particularly special save for Kane's and Mitch's innings. I only woke up an hour ago and quickly went through the NZ innings (a decent effort but probably 15 runs short) and then caught up to the live telecast.

Oh well, that's that then. Worth "a few beers" then get on that plane guys... and start the preparation for the real stuff in just over 3 weeks. I see Rory already has a head start... Smile
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Post by KP_fan Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:35 pm

Well Done Australia and congratulations to Aussie supporters

We have seen the format does not reward consistency.....allows for cameos to overcome consistency

Also it's a gold mine for limited players who do not have the strength, stamina , technique skill and consistency to cut it in the longer format

This world cup will be forgotten in a month and we will have to google who the last 3 edition winners were by the time we get to next world cup
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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:38 pm

The ending that many feared, with the teams winning the toss all winning the knockout games. Ends a very poor tournament. The two strongest sides in the competition - England and Pakistan - overcame the significant disadvantage of losing the toss, only for individual players to lose them the semi-final.

Today's final was between two closely-matched teams, both poor to mediocre, and Australia had the big advantage from the off. NZ probably win if they win the toss. Rubbish stuff. Forgettable. Hope next year's event is better.

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Post by Pal Joey Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:04 pm

India was the biggest disappointment for me but I have a feeling they must have been a little burnt out as a team after the IPL... although it didn't affect players from other countries so much.

Pakistan looked the strongest side throughout the tournament overall but got pipped at the wrong time by Australia again. NZ fought hard but missed Conway which interrupted their final match plans. England, the heavy favourites were basically a one man team with Buttler and losing Roy was critical but I had some doubts over Morgan's captaincy in the SA game. A leader; not a captain shouldn't hide down the order smirking away in the dugout... he should have batted higher and led by example although Moeen still gave them a chance. It was the same for the NZ semi final match.

SA, after a slow start, showed what they were capable of when the chips are down. SL showed glimpses of potential but they are still in transition. WI are obviously in decline and need a proper player clean out. Bangladesh and Afghanistan, whilst possessing several skilled individual players, were short on confidence at these venues and it ultimately proved a hurdle too high for them to get over.

They keep showing the lovely building I helped design and document. The Hotel Intercontinental or the "Hammerhead" as we called it. Looks good... twinkling coloured lights, the Presidential suites mostly lit up at night. I went there a few times during construction. The taxi used to drop me off at the 'bomb proof' porte cochère... the engineers basically added extra steel reinforcement within the concrete columns. I won't mention the late changes the Sheikh made - but thank goodness it all got done in the end. It was a 6* hotel which was pretty luxurious back in the mid-2000s compared to the lowly Crown next door which was only about 4* or 5* from memory.
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Post by guildfordbat Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:27 pm

JDizzle wrote:Phillips gets a couple away from Zampa’s last - but another excellent day for the Aussie leggie. Improved beyond measure.

Zampa would probably be my shout for Player of the Series. Remarkably consistent and reliable.

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Post by kingraf Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:02 pm

Well, to no one's surprise, the game was over at the toss and it was all going through the motions from there. Not sure what the ICC can actually do to make the toss less OP in T20s tbh. Pitches don't wear out enough in 20 overs for the team batting second to get worse batting conditions. Any playing around with the ball conditions would have to be the same for both teams, so that's a non starter.
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Post by JDizzle Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:11 pm

I just hope that’s the last T20 I watch from the UAE for a while. The grounds there just seem so soulless and it doesn’t help they are half empty most of the time. Literally anywhere else would be better.

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Post by Galted Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:36 pm

JDizzle wrote:I just hope that’s the last T20 I watch from the UAE for a while. The grounds there just seem so soulless and it doesn’t help they are half empty most of the time. Literally anywhere else would be better.

I'm sure that we'll get back to tournaments being shared fairly between Australia, India and England barring any further pandemic-related contingency plans.
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Post by Jeff Navarro Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:38 pm

Please correct if wrong, but I read that India was the ‘host’ of this tournament. But due to Covid19 they retained the hosting rights and shifted the event to the Middle East?
What’s the point in that? I’m being genuine here.
Would it not have been better to move the rotation to the next host and filter India back in next time?
I found the matches reasonably entertaining, I’m not a cricket person previously stated, from a slugging(not sure what it’s called in cricket) perspective.
But bowlers seemed to get screwed over with this wet ball situation.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:13 pm

The next host is Australia which complicates things even more.

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Post by alfie Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:27 am

So all done and we have to wait desperately for a few more months for the next opportunity to enjoy this pinnacle of cricket excellence ... Yes I am taking the p...

It is what it is : like the IPL and BBL and Hundred - all good fun and the skills of the better players are not to be sneered at : but it isn't at all a fair test of the relative merits of teams , even when conditions don't make the toss an exaggerated factor. Play a series of matches between two teams and you could make a judgement of sorts ; but a one-off contest between two teams from a similar level can go either way depending on luck or someone having a bad hair day... As this was shifted to UAE because of the pandemic we had to expect some aspects might be less than satisfactory - though it is a pity the finals couldn't have been played in the daytime , I think.

In the context of the format though , we have to say that the best team over the tournament won (Australia played 7 , lost just one - albeit badly) . Pakistan only lost one of six and NZ 2 of 7 (though they unfortunately lost the most important ones ) so they can probably say they each had a good competition.

The disappointments (apart from the awful over the hill West Indies and originally hopeful Bangladesh) were the favourites : India didn't wake up until they were effectively out and England seemed to get a bit ahead of themselves with early success and really just weren't good enough against the better teams. They were unlucky with injuries but I still think Morgan & co will feel they didn't do themselves justice when it counted. Hope it doesn't affect their morale for the coming Test Matches . Aussies will be more confident perhaps but they are usually pretty sure of themselves at home anyway !

I think next year's event in Australia will probably represent a "fairer" playing field. Except we might find a match or two decided by the much loved Duckworth Lewis system...can't have everything perfect , can we ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:42 am

Righto - some thoughts about England's side building towards the 2022 T20i World Cup, and the 2023 ODI World Cup...

Firstly, it's slightly blurred by the length of time between the two (ie. there isn't much), so they're going to have to really treat each format differently to get the most out of the bilateral games they're playing. I say this, because with each competition being in different conditions...there will be some players I think should be aiming to be built for one, and some for the other.
Will end up with my "ideal" XI for both - do take with a pinch of salt, because obviously injuries/progression don't pan out the way you want like ever, but still, I like to have an ideal world

I'll start off with a little review/forward look at the folk at this tournament...

Roy - two world events in a row he has gone down injured, and England have lost the majority of games he's missed..I don't think it's a coincidence. The role he plays for both sides is crucial, and he is still the best option for it...but I do think England need to start looking at a viable backup in case of injury. This time they had Vince as the backup opener...but clearly didn't trust him to play/fill the Roy role. I'd look at Phil Salt for this going forward...

Buttler - don't need to say much here, superb tournament and clearly a crucial part of the side going forward.

Malan - a meh tournament after a poor year...he's lucky the 2022 version is in suitable conditions, but he needs to refind his feet to make that side in my opinion. Not an option for the 2023 ODI world cup in India.

Bairstow - a disappointing tournament for him, but clearly another key part of the white ball setup going forward for both sides.

Livingstone - a revelation in the tournament with the ball, limited opportunity with the bat - and that is something I want to see rectified in 2022. Would like to see him moved up the order and given more opportunity, because in a similar vein to Buttler/Roy/Bairstow has that ability of "if he faces 40 balls, we win the game" in t20s. I think he is someone who should become an option in the ODI arena too, especially with 2023 being in India...his bowling could be handy there too.

Morgan - actually ok with the bat in limited opportunity, and think he captained fine. As said earlier, he's someone I would keep around for his leadership/captaincy/vision providing the batting doesn't fall off a cliff. Definitely needs some runs in upcoming series to just allay fears.

Moeen - superb tournament from him, a bit under utilized really. Albeit for the future, a bit in flux...as he's fallen out of favour in the ODI setup but could be a useful option in 2023...whereas he's very much rightly in favour in the T20 setup but the Aussie conditions in 2022 probably mean he wouldn't be in my first choice XI.

Billings - N/A on this tournament...still a viable backup batting option going forward. Been a bit unlucky really not to get more opportunities, as he's actually made good use of recent ones. A contender for 2022 and 2023.

Woakes - I would say a mixed tournament...superb in the powerplay on the whole, but woeful after that. Personally, don't think he should be an option for the 2022 T20i world cup...if he's getting marmalized outside the powerplay on these wickets, he's going to go seriously badly in Aussie conditions. Do think he is still important for the ODI side with his new ball bowling and batting, so would focus on getting him to 2023.

Jordan - if we look at the tournament as a whole, he did well...but it will be marred by *that* final over vs NZ. I think England need to bite the bullet and transition him away from being a starter to a backup/squad member role in case of injury for 2022. Not an option for the 2023 ODI stuff.

Rashid - an underwhelming tournament from a class bowler...I have to admit I am slightly concerned about his shoulder going forward, it's niggled for years and England really do not have a viable alternative at the moment for him (I will get to that). Clearly providing he is fit, he should be part of the 2022 and 2023 sides going forward, hopefully with some support...

Wood - really poor two games...tough to come in off the bench true, but man he was really quite bad. I think he's part of both the 2022 and 2023 sides, but in an ideal world he would be a squad member for the t20s and a starter for the ODIs only. Kind of low-key bad at the t20s, but Aussie conditions will suit him more you'd think

Mills - mixed tournament before injury, and the injury is the worry because I really do think he would be a contender for a starting slot in my 2022 T20i world cup side. Obviously not in contention for 2023 ODI stuff

Vince/Dawson/Topley/Tom Curran - Dawson criminally not used in this...I would like to see him around the team with a view to 2023, but ultimately these guys are squad players who I'd like to see replaced by younger talent in the next 12-24 months in an ideal world.

Enough of that for now....some players I'd like to see brought into the setups now with a view to 2022 and 2023...

Firstly - all three who were injured/unavailable for this time round, Stokes/Archer/Sam Curran should all be part of the XIs or at worst squads for both in my opinion.

Now some players I think England should put investment into (ie. bring into squads, give some gametime when multi format players are being rested etc);
Matt Parkinson - this one is 1a, most crucial, biggest one for me with a view to 2023. Likely to need a second actual spinner for that tournament, and Parkinson looks the best option to me. England desperately need to work with him to get his fielding to a level where he isn't a liability at international level, because it is at the moment and what is holding him back imo. A backup for Rashid in the 2022 T20i world cup ideally too.

Matt Carter - JDizzle's boy! Looks the best off spin potential option going forward in both formats, I don't think he is on England's radar really but he should be. Good lower order biffage too. Would keep an eye for 2023.

George Garton - A favourite of King Carlos now, while I don't rate him as highly as he does...he certainly is someone England need to get into the fold if they can. A left arm quick option, who is electric in the field and can wield the willow down the order? Yes, they could do with one of those.

Saqib Mahmood - if not injured, I think he would have been in the squad for this tournament, but now should be a fixture of squads with a view to being a starting member of the 2022 T20i bowling attack imo. Has the pace, has the skills to be a really good option in both 2022 and 2023, ideally he will overtake Wood in the pecking order.

Phil Salt - while Parkinson is 1a, Salt is 1b for who I want to see developed and brought into the fold. Now, he has a tougher path to gametime cos I think ideally the batting lineup doesn't change hugely in 2022 and 2023...but in light of the Roy injury issues, he would be my top replacement ideally going forward. Hopefully the move to Lancashire can push forward his case more too. He's got a bit of sh*thouse/spike in him I really like too, not going to shrink on the international stage

Will Jacks - unabashed Will Jacks fan here, this is more for the t20 side at the moment (2022), but man I think he could be the next cab off the rank of potential ridiculous hitters who could open/bat top 3. Superstar in the powerplay and the fast pitches of Australia would suit too, a bit Livingstone-esque I think. Able to bowl an over or two of offies too

Harry Brook/Joe Clarke/Ben Duckett/Will Smeed/Zak Crawley - these are my batting lads who aren't likely to crack 2022 or 2023, but I would keep an eye on going forward for squads. Brook despite being at Yorkshire, has come on superbly the last 18 months and could be a potential Root/Morgan mould player...Clarke and Duckett have been around a while and likely won't ever get a true shot, but man they're good. Duckett I really do think has been dealt with harshly at international level, I think he's got legit talent.
Smeed is t20 purely, and based solely on potential but maybe a post 2023 option.
I love Crawley's white ball talent, he whiffs of Trescothick to me...think he has more of a white ball than red ball future ultimately. (albeit I do think if he can crack tests, he'd be great too)

You will notice conspicuous by his absence from the lists is Tom Banton. Clearly has ability, but I think England might have broken him already unfortunately Sad

Ideal 2022 T20i world cup XI/squad;

Roy
Buttler
Livingstone
Bairstow
Stokes
Morgan
Sam Curran/Moeen
Archer
Rashid
Mahmood
Mills/Wood

With Billings/Salt as first choice batting backups, Parkinson as spare spinner and maybe Garton as a left arm option.
Harsh on Malan maybe, but like I said I want Livingstone getting as much time with the bat as possible, and Stokes is simply a better cricketer than Dawid. Would load up on high pace if I can, with extra bowling options in case of tonkage happening to one of them. Number 7 slot is really up for grabs...could use Sam Curran as a powerplay option, could use Moeen if the pitches take some turn...could just go another bat.

Ideal 2023 ODI world cup XI/squad;

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan/Livingstone
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes/Sam Curran
Archer
Rashid
Mahmood/Wood
Parkinson (maybe Moeen but obviously shift in order then)

Again Salt in backup opener, maybe one of Brook/Clarke/Duckett has pushed on to take backup middle order and then ideally Wood as backup seamer.
Harsh on Mo, but struggle to see a slot in my ideal side for him in this one. Morgan probably most vulnerable in this 2023 side than the 2022 t20 one in my opinion. Think you would like two proper spinners in the XI one way or another.

As JDizzle pointed out a few pages back, England's side is on the older end of the age spectrum, and while I don't foresee a huge cliff drop off for many by 2023, it does make sense to get some of this younger/fresher blood into the setup/squads with a view to post 2023 and if they can contribute beforehand properly then great. I'd expect a fair few retirements after 2023...

Anyways, rambled on long enough now. If you've got anything to add please do so, I love this sort of thing Very Happy
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly
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Post by JDizzle Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:36 pm

alfie wrote:So all done and we have to wait desperately for a few more months for the next opportunity to enjoy this pinnacle of cricket excellence ... Yes I am taking the p...

Don’t panic - India play NZ in a T20i on Wednesday! Completely sensible sport.

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Post by alfie Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:08 am

Hard to argue with anything you have put up there , Olly. Maybe writing off Malan and Moeen a little harsh ; and Morgan may possibly have a bit of a question mark on his tenure but nothing unreasonable in those suggestions.
Of course we know injuries will play havoc with any plans so good to have a number of alternates lined up : and I think also important that those alternates get plenty of game time in the intervening period , rather than insisting on picking the first choice XI nearly all the time.
I like the Parkinson emphasis : if the concerns over Rashid's ongoing fitness become more serious that is the most important area needing reserve strength.
Calendar looking pretty busy next couple of years !

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Post by alfie Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:09 am

JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:So all done and we have to wait desperately for a few more months for the next opportunity to enjoy this pinnacle of cricket excellence ... Yes I am taking the p...

Don’t panic - India play NZ in a T20i on Wednesday! Completely sensible sport.

Can't wait Cool

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