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England Autumn Internationals - MARK II

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:07 pm

Re 6ns has the like of Ford, played his last game, what about Nowell,is he injured or just left out for the AI? and what about Billy v and Mako v so many good players come in it is hard too see who will or will not be in the squad over all.

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Post by Heaf Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:17 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Heaf wrote:Probably only a pen - but the issue was they never even looked at it ...

They didn't stop the game to review but the TMO may have checked it in the background and decided there wasn't enough in it to get the ref to bring it back for a penalty.

Possibly - but in which case I think the TMO would be wrong as a seatbelt is a pen and that looked worse with head contact at least.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:22 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Re 6ns has the like of Ford, played his last game, what about Nowell,is he injured or just left out for the AI? and what about Billy v and Mako v so many good players come in it is hard too see who will or will not be in the squad over all.

Ford skipped the summer to recover from injury, since he's got got again his form has got steadily better and better. Not sure I've seen many flyhalf performances better than the one he put in Vs Saints. He was sensational in that game and made Biggar look average (not an easy feat). At 28 and with Smith now set up in the squad it would be the ideal time to reintroduce him, especially with Farrell likely to be injured.

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Post by Poorfour Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:37 am

For is playing very well, but it needs to be balanced against the relative strength of the Tigers pack. He's usually getting front foot ball from a dominant set of forwards at the moment.

The pack that England put out on Saturday was definitely coming off worse against the Books, but our backline still managed to create three tries against the best current international defence.

Historically, Ford has struggled without forward dominance. I would still be happy to see him in the squad, especially with Farrell injured, but he will have to show that he can make the system work under pressure.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:42 am

Ford is way too good not to be involved. Realistically he should be the alternate option to Smith rather than Farrell as at least they play a little similar.

I would be quite happy with Farrell being slowly phased out tbh.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:52 am

Still a bit to go until the 6 nations. How will Ford go now everyone knows he's looking to move to Sale. Will another youngster be involved. Will Farrell even be back to full speed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:14 am

Heaf wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Heaf wrote:Probably only a pen - but the issue was they never even looked at it ...

They didn't stop the game to review but the TMO may have checked it in the background and decided there wasn't enough in it to get the ref to bring it back for a penalty.

Possibly - but in which case I think the TMO would be wrong as a seatbelt is a pen and that looked worse with head contact at least.

There were no comms from the ref or tmo to say it was checked.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:34 am

Poorfour wrote:For is playing very well, but it needs to be balanced against the relative strength of the Tigers pack. He's usually getting front foot ball from a dominant set of forwards at the moment.

The pack that England put out on Saturday was definitely coming off worse against the Books, but our backline still managed to create three tries against the best current international defence.

Historically, Ford has struggled without forward dominance. I would still be happy to see him in the squad, especially with Farrell injured, but he will have to show that he can make the system work under pressure.

Did you miss the seasons were Ford kept Tigers from getting relegated? He definitely wasn't getting forward dominance then, was getting backline dominance either. The season Newcastle went down I think Ford scored more points than anyone else in the season, an incredible effort to get us to finish 11th such was awful decision making by the board to reappoint MOC. I would also point to the Scotland game a few years back where Ford came off the bench to salvage us a draw from a game we were getting tonked in the second half.

I presume you also missed the Saints game where Ford guided Tigers through the Saints fightback and being down to 13 men? Pressure? What pressure the guy has got it. During that 13 man period he played 9 and 10. To suggest he can't play under pressure is very odd.

In the current set up Ford would be far more comfortable than in the 6N where the backline balance was horrific and Ford wasn't fit enough to train fully during the week leading up to games. I don't think many if any flyhalf would make a backline of May/Farrell/Slade/Watson/Daly look good there's just no one to hold the defence or offer penetration. Huge difference this Autumn with Manu, Marchant and Steward involved.

Ford isn't going to offer the Smith running threat but what he will offer is better game management. Would make a lot of sense if we're to play with a similar set up to what we had on Saturday (hopefully with actual wingers for the full 80) to have Smith start and then Ford on the bench. If it gets towards squeaky time you can bring Ford on to exert more control and close the game out but unlike Farrell still be able to launch attacks.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Heaf wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Heaf wrote:Probably only a pen - but the issue was they never even looked at it ...

They didn't stop the game to review but the TMO may have checked it in the background and decided there wasn't enough in it to get the ref to bring it back for a penalty.

Possibly - but in which case I think the TMO would be wrong as a seatbelt is a pen and that looked worse with head contact at least.

There were no comms from the ref or tmo to say it was checked.

They only tend to do that if the ref asks. The old "check that tackle by 4 green" didn't come through so you'd presume the TMO would mention it I he thought it required it. 

My opinion is there doesn't appear from the one angle we saw to be any definite head contact and that the right arm only slips up well after the initial contact and as the player is about to hit the ground. 50/50 penalty or no penalty. TMO may have not thought it worth stopping the game. Realistically if it happened to any other player we wouldn't be discussing it but because it's the new young flyhalf on the scene and there was a concern about him being roughed up its being looked at. I'd say Smith probably gets worse every week in the Prem

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:54 am

And the TMO seemingly only checks otherwise should it be mentioned by commentators which it wasn't. It's definitely a penalty, possible yellow. I'm talking about it as I saw it live and thought it deserved a look. We went onto score a try anyway. I'd say it was clumsy and not like when SA seemed to lose their heads a bit at the end though.

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:09 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Re 6ns has the like of Ford, played his last game, what about Nowell,is he injured or just left out for the AI? and what about Billy v and Mako v so many good players come in it is hard too see who will or will not be in the squad over all.

Billy V - Gone
Mako - Gone
Manu - Gone
Nowell - Gone
Robson - Gone

Farrell - Benched

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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:26 am

Manu is still injury dependent. He looked better than I would have hoped in the games he did play. We are not dependent on him though.

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:38 am

Manu is never fit for more than a few games.

You just cant build a game around.." well he might be fit"

Nope...in my opinion, time to call it a day...move on. Focus on what we have...Speed and skill (Marchant etc) and hope someone with a bit of power (Lawrence, Odogwu) comes through to challenge...

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Post by propdavid_london Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:38 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Re 6ns has the like of Ford, played his last game, what about Nowell,is he injured or just left out for the AI? and what about Billy v and Mako v so many good players come in it is hard too see who will or will not be in the squad over all.

Billy V - Gone
Mako - Gone
Manu - Gone
Nowell - Gone
Robson - Gone

Farrell - Benched
There are more to it than that. What about Watson, Daly, Cockanasinga - all guys that were in the WC but will struggle to get back in the squad. Watson for me if fit and firing could come back in.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:44 am

lostinwales wrote:Manu is still injury dependent. He looked better than I would have hoped in the games he did play. We are not dependent on him though.

I like the earlier GeordieFalcon point of using Manu as the bench impact. He can slot in at 12 or 13 and no defender is going to want to see him come on fresh whilst everyone else is tired with free reign to run round smashing people.

I'd like to see the backline that played most of the SA game persevered with. The Smith, Slade, Marchant combination looked slick and I'm not a Slade fan. Steward seems nailed on at 15, I don't think even Eddie would drop the lad with back to back POTM unless there was a monumental loss of form, Malins alongside him gave us the safest pair at the back in a long time and still have us plenty in attack. May made a couple of high profile howlers but actually did some good bits as well they just weren't as noticeable.

9. Youngs
11. May
12. Slade
13. Marchant
14. Malins
15. Steward

21. Quirke, 22. Ford, 23. Manu

On the basis Farrell is still out. That would give us some very nice options to work with. Given the start of the 6N is normally played in unpleasant conditions having the solidarity at the back makes a lot of sense and Slade being able to drop back there as well. Watson could come back in depending how he recovers.

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:47 am

Big Joe offers something that none of the other wingers have: he's big and difficult to stop. That moment when Dane Haylett-Petty tried to tackle him and was just bumped off as if he wasn't there. Joe went on to score a try from that. He might not be perfect for every game but on form, he gives something very different to out and out speed. Eddie likes him - I just hope he's not another Manu and always injured.

He has a pretty good strike rate from his games.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:53 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Manu is never fit for more than a few games.

You just cant build a game around.." well he might be fit"

Nope...in my opinion, time to call it a day...move on. Focus on what we have...Speed and skill (Marchant etc) and hope someone with a bit of power (Lawrence, Odogwu) comes through to challenge...

Said before I don't think you can ignore Tuilagi as he's so good. Odogwu needs to come back from his own injury of course too.

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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:57 am

Big Joe has good distribution skills too - but he just seems permanently injured.

I think Daly is gone unless he starts showing amazing form. We'll miss the long range penalties but they were never that common. The most I'd expect is that he will make for a very versatile RWC squad filler. Malins absolutely looks the part as a replacement, and would be our full back now going forward if it wasn't for Steward.

Watson tends to come back from injury looking better than he did before and he's a class operator so you'd think he is coming back but we won't see him in an England shirt until next autumn at the earliest.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:09 am

Quotes via the Guardian from Jones:

“You think about South Africa, they have been on the road away from home for at least 18 weeks. That presents challenges. There may be some mental fatigue that gets exacerbated by those conditions. We certainly found the Six Nations as a team very difficult with the restrictions we had in the team environment. That puts another layer on that equation.”

As he prepares to head for France to scout potential 2023 World Cup bases, however, Jones is less bothered about Test rugby’s potentially shifting balance between north and south than ensuring England kick on from their Twickenham wins over Tonga, Australia and the world champions.

“I’m not too concerned about the northern hemisphere,” stressed Jones, whose side’s next fixture is at Murrayfield on 5 February. “The only thing I’m concerned about is England and I know we’re going to be in a better position after the Six Nations because we’ll keep improving. When the coaches have had a bit of a break we’ll start having a look at Scotland and see how we’re going to beat them. It’s the only thing we’re worried about.”

“I think the speed of the ball is creating much more decision making for players and the more practice they get at doing that the better it is for the players. If you look at the Premiership I think the speed of the ruck ball has gone down by approximately a second, and that means defences are less organised. That creates more decision-making because you have got the opportunity to play quicker and flatter on the line.”

Having also picked 23 new players this year, Jones is hopeful the emergence of some quality youngsters will continue to energise their seniors but admits that team building remains an imprecise science. “I was talking four or five weeks ago to a coach who won a major, major trophy. I said ‘What did you do?’ He said: ‘I really don’t know, every team I get I do the same thing. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.’

“We got those young guys together in summer ... for some reason there was this chemistry in that group and it just took off. Then you put them back with a few of the established players and again you don’t really know what’s going to happen. But they seem to have gelled really well, they have a nice feel about them. And when you have that nice feel they tend to fight a bit harder. They were able to find a lot of extra petrol in the tank on Saturday and a lot of it we don’t know why.”

As for his French reconnaissance, Jones would love to base his squad near Nice but will also take the chance to chat to people about the steadily-improving national side. “I’ll have a look around France and see what information I can pick up. They seem to be doing some good things. I just send out spies everywhere ... we are putting out surveillance cameras in every corner of France we can.”

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:10 am

Daly I think has successfully kicked something like 9 times across his 52 England performances, a few of them would be within Slade range anyway.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:12 am

After that Tonga game, does Slade have a range?

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Manu is never fit for more than a few games.

You just cant build a game around.." well he might be fit"

Nope...in my opinion, time to call it a day...move on. Focus on what we have...Speed and skill (Marchant etc) and hope someone with a bit of power (Lawrence, Odogwu) comes through to challenge...

Said before I don't think you can ignore Tuilagi as he's so good. Odogwu needs to come back from his own injury of course too.

Indeed he does....

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Post by Poorfour Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:36 am

I think Marchant did enough against SA to justify being used more - 5 runs at 6m per run, 4 defenders beaten, 7/0 tackles, several good takes including the one that led to the Kolisi yellow - but the question is where? I think he was more influential at OC but Eddie is clearly happier putting him in at wing to accommodate two of Slade, Farrell and Tuilagi.
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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:39 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Manu is never fit for more than a few games.

You just cant build a game around.." well he might be fit"

Nope...in my opinion, time to call it a day...move on. Focus on what we have...Speed and skill (Marchant etc) and hope someone with a bit of power (Lawrence, Odogwu) comes through to challenge...

Said before I don't think you can ignore Tuilagi as he's so good. Odogwu needs to come back from his own injury of course too.

Indeed he does....

"Paolo's started the running elements to his game," explained Barrow. "He's in with the long-term injured group. They're all coming on really well. He's coming on. He's buying into some of the stuff we're doing at the moment with our training. I wouldn't know where he is in terms of related dates for comebacks, he looks like he's improving and he's managing to put some pace back into his running as well.”


from 10th November

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:43 am

So there's him, Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary all at about the same stage. Wasps and England will be looking forward to seeing if they can pick up form quickly.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:59 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Daly I think has successfully kicked something like 9 times across his 52 England performances, a few of them would be within Slade range anyway.

Steward has a similar range to Daly. Range might even be longer, he's only had two shots at Tigers and both were a long way out around halfway and both easily had the range. One went over and one didn't. I'm sure the England coaches could develop him up in that regard if they saw it as a long term tactic.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:04 am

Will Evans will be returning hopefully around Christmas time too and was in a good competition with Willis for the most turnovers before they both got injured.
Lynagh has presumably been given some work-ons from Eddie (and was injured in camp I think) - but if he continues in previous form then might get a shot at some point.

Others have mentioned Odogwu who again needs time to come back but was looking really good before injury. Randall etc.

So many decent youngsters out there at the moment.
And lest not forget others like Isekwe, Lozowski, Obano, that have all been in earlier squads

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:06 am

Poorfour wrote:I think Marchant did enough against SA to justify being used more - 5 runs at 6m per run, 4 defenders beaten, 7/0 tackles, several good takes including the one that led to the Kolisi yellow - but the question is where? I think he was more influential at OC but Eddie is clearly happier putting him in at wing to accommodate two of Slade, Farrell and Tuilagi.

For me he has to be used at 13.

It no secret i do like a power option in the midfield....however...

Im really not adverse to seeing Smith, Slade, Marchant. They certainly complimented each other well...and has a lot of potential...

Especially if we can bring some heavy duty from else where...ie Steward at FB and maybe a wing or a big carrying back row forward...

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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there's him, Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary all at about the same stage. Wasps and England will be looking forward to seeing if they can pick up form quickly.

Barbeary is back playing this weekend I believe. Willis who knows, I think there have been points where it has been a question of if rather than when. Back in August Wasps were saying both he and Launchbury could be back for Christmas with Odogwu ' in the new year'.

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:44 am

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So there's him, Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary all at about the same stage. Wasps and England will be looking forward to seeing if they can pick up form quickly.

Barbeary is back playing this weekend I believe. Willis who knows, I think there have been points where it has been a question of if rather than when. Back in August Wasps were saying both he and Launchbury could be back for Christmas with Odogwu ' in the new year'.

Really? Were they worried he might not make it back?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:48 am

One lock that seems to have been forgotten is Ribbans, 2.02m tall (6'7"/8") 19 stone, mobile and a serious carrier in the SA mold. I had hopes for Alex Moon at the same height and 20 stone I had hoped he would progress but it does not seem to have happened.
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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:49 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One lock that seems to have been forgotten is Ribbans, 2.02m tall (6'7"/8") 19 stone, mobile and a serious carrier in the SA mold. I had hopes for Alex Moon at the same height and 20 stone I had hoped he would progress but it does not seem to have happened.

For whatever reason Jones has given Ribbans the brief once over and not looked again...?

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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So there's him, Launchbury, Willis and Barbeary all at about the same stage. Wasps and England will be looking forward to seeing if they can pick up form quickly.

Barbeary is back playing this weekend I believe. Willis who knows, I think there have been points where it has been a question of if rather than when. Back in August Wasps were saying both he and Launchbury could be back for Christmas with Odogwu ' in the new year'.

Really? Were they worried he might not make it back?

I think it was a clickbaity headline but I don't think his injury was that simple. I wonder if we could find an orthopedic surgeon with a rugby obsession to give us an opinion?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:22 pm

Some seriously difficult selections coming up which means I think we're all probably  going to disagree with a fair few. I don't think Jones has finished bringing in new blood either.

Just listening to the rugby podcast and Monye has just said that Malins isn't an international winger as he cut back inside from the ball out wide prior to Stewards try. I do feel he could have got there if he'd backed himself a bit more. Hard to argue against his assertion that Radwan would have scored though.


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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some seriously difficult selections coming up which means I think we're all probably  going to disagree with a fair few. I don't think Jones has finished bringing in new blood either.

Very true...but in reality we're probably all quite satisfied with the start of the "rebuild" - 3 from 3 wins including SA...

Lots to work on...but glipmses of real potential quality aswell...youngsters blooded, and an intent to attack.

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Post by dummy_half Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Some seriously difficult selections coming up which means I think we're all probably  going to disagree with a fair few. I don't think Jones has finished bringing in new blood either.

Very true...but in reality we're probably all quite satisfied with the start of the "rebuild" - 3 from 3 wins including SA...

Lots to work on...but glipmses of real potential quality aswell...youngsters blooded, and an intent to attack.

Of course there is one choice we would all get behind and that is to pick one of the specialist 8s at 8, whether that be Dombrandt, Simmonds or a fit and in form Billy V, rather than playing Curry out of position there. Plenty of options elsewhere...

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:22 pm

dummy_half wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Some seriously difficult selections coming up which means I think we're all probably  going to disagree with a fair few. I don't think Jones has finished bringing in new blood either.

Very true...but in reality we're probably all quite satisfied with the start of the "rebuild" - 3 from 3 wins including SA...

Lots to work on...but glipmses of real potential quality aswell...youngsters blooded, and an intent to attack.

Of course there is one choice we would all get behind and that is to pick one of the specialist 8s at 8, whether that be Dombrandt, Simmonds or a fit and in form Billy V, rather than playing Curry out of position there. Plenty of options elsewhere...

You see i disagree, i want Chick or Tom Willis.... Wink

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:31 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Afro wrote:
dummy_half wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

At the 1:35 minute mark in the video just above. Malins was outside the 22 when he kicked, so the 50-22 wasm't on.

He only needs to be within his own half not his own 22.

As I was writing that comment, I realized it was tosh, and resolved not to send it, because it would just make me look like an idiot.

Err....

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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some seriously difficult selections coming up which means I think we're all probably  going to disagree with a fair few. I don't think Jones has finished bringing in new blood either.

Just listening to the rugby podcast and Monye has just said that Malins isn't an international winger as he cut back inside from the ball out wide prior to Stewards try. I do feel he could have got there if he'd backed himself a bit more. Hard to argue against his assertion that Radwan would have scored though.

Fun discussion. Radwan would not have stopped the Kwagga try, and he would not have produced that sublime full speed catch and kick. He would however have caused other problems for the Boks and I do dearly hope he stays in Eddie's plans.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:59 pm

Ruaridh McConnochie is another that went to the WC - admittedly a bit of a wild card selection.
Is he realistically going to get a look in again?

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:27 pm

Lets be honest...Mallins isnt Radwans only competition.

He has Johnny May, Hassel Collins, Loader, Cokasaniga, Daly, Watson, Odogwu (though id rather he was a 13), Nowell...etc etc

England are blessed with wingers....and playmakers who have pace...who can play on the wing.

And even though im very biased on Radwan and have hated the idea of Mallins on the wing...i have to admit i thought Mailins looked made for wing at this level....in his game v the Boks.


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Post by Rugby Fan Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:36 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Ruaridh McConnochie is another that went to the WC - admittedly a bit of a wild card selection.  
Is he realistically going to get a look in again?
Unlikely. The stars aligned for McConnochie at just the right time, and that probably won't happen again. He hit a decent vein of form at club level, which made him worth a look. It is very likely that one of the main things Jones liked was his sevens experience. Nothing to do with playing the code itself, more that McConnochie was used to spending months away from home, living in hotels, and playing in a variety of unfamiliar settings. It made him a good squad player for that particular World Cup.

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Post by cb Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:30 pm

A difference between backs and forwards - in the last 6 months quite a number of young backs have used (e.g. Smith, Quirke, Steward, Radwan) and even Mallins and Marchant are quite new.

Whilst with the forwards probably Dolly and Rodd would not have played except for injury which really only leaves Blamire and Dombrandt who got any time from the newer guys.

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Post by lostinwales Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:49 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Ruaridh McConnochie is another that went to the WC - admittedly a bit of a wild card selection.  
Is he realistically going to get a look in again?
Unlikely. The stars aligned for McConnochie at just the right time, and that probably won't happen again. He hit a decent vein of form at club level, which made him worth a look. It is very likely that one of the main things Jones liked was his sevens experience. Nothing to do with playing the code itself, more that McConnochie was used to spending months away from home, living in hotels, and playing in a variety of unfamiliar settings. It made him a good squad player for that particular World Cup.

Eddie was on record as saying the extra slots were very hard to fill and that the crucial thing was that the players involved would be happy to be bench fodder at best and not be disruptive.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lets be honest...Mallins isnt Radwans only competition.

He has Johnny May, Hassel Collins, Loader, Cokasaniga, Daly, Watson, Odogwu (though id rather he was a 13), Nowell...etc etc

England are blessed with wingers....and playmakers who have pace...who can play on the wing.

And even though im very biased on Radwan and have hated the idea of Mallins on the wing...i have to admit i thought Mailins looked made for wing at this level....in his game v the Boks.

As an outsider I see England future wingers as Radwan and Mallins with Odogwu at 13, Marchant on the bench

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:04 pm

cb wrote:A difference between backs and forwards - in the last 6 months quite a number of young backs have used (e.g. Smith, Quirke, Steward, Radwan) and even Mallins and Marchant are quite new.

Whilst with the forwards probably Dolly and Rodd would not have played except for injury which really only leaves Blamire and Dombrandt who got any time from the newer guys.

Forwards are all reasonably young so probably waiting for genuine competition. Blamire and Rodd are 2 that replaced set starters in George and Vunipola before injuries brought George back quickly. I echo the above would love to see Ribbans involved. Perhaps Heyes too. Or Painter.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:16 pm

2020 - Furbank, Stuart, Earl, J Hill, Thorley, Lawrence, Dunn, Willis, Malins

2021 - Obano, Martin, Langdon, Heyes, McNally, Ludlow, Chick, Randall, Smith, Steward, Blamire, Davison, B Curry, Umaga, Wells, Dombrandt, Kelly, Radwan, Atkinson, Mitchell, Rodd, Quirke, Dolly

That's the list of players capped since the RWC so certainly not a shortage of trying them out.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:20 pm

I think the problem Eddie has is that the pack isn't quite working but there's no one obvious to move on from the pack that would facilitate improvement. The Vunipolas have gone and he's got more game time into Blamire so that he's got three hookers who can play the game he wants them to. Dombrandt has been labelled as the answer but hasn't hit his international stride yet and though we have plenty of openside options none of them are better than Curry and we are already moving him around to allow Underhill a spot.

He's certainly having a look at plenty of options but can't seem to find anything to improve what he has.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:53 pm

With the first XV taking shape, I'd love to see us bring some of the big guns back in the 6N and let them try and fight their way back in. Imagine a bench of.....

16. LCD
17. Genge/Mako
18. Stuart/Heyes (Not overly sold on Stuart)
19. Underhill
20. Billy V
21. Quirke
22. Ford
23. Watson

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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:43 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:With the first XV taking shape, I'd love to see us bring some of the big guns back in the 6N and let them try and fight their way back in. Imagine a bench of.....

16. LCD
17. Genge/Mako
18. Stuart/Heyes (Not overly sold on Stuart)
19. Underhill
20. Billy V
21. Quirke
22. Ford
23. Watson
Agreed other than hooker there Sarge. I rate Blamire but LCD and George are so far ahead of him at the minute that they'd be my hookers for the Six Nations if fit. I wouldn't be opposed at all to seeing players like Underhill, Mako, Billy, Ford and Farrell fighting from the bench if they have good club form.

I really doubt that Watson will make the Six Nations, sadly. Ruptured ACL is a brutal injury. I'd guess he's looking at the very end of the season with Bath if lucky but more likely 2022/23.

I'm not sold on Stuart either. Heyes I think was carrying an injury in preseason and seems to be working his way back to form. I thought England were right to move on from Cole after the RWC but 2 years later and I still rate him the second best TH England have.

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